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[Sir Tigger KC]

In that case, it might be time to become a wholesale butcher. In China...

No good, as we all have to become vegans........ 

To save the planet! 

[Lizzie Zoom]

So, again, I would say, why not take that route with the environment, regardless of business and political messages to the contrary from those who wish to protect their source of massive wealth at the cost of our children, the future? 

 

Carbon neutral by 2050 (which is government policy) is bloody ambitious in my view and probably will involve moving heaving emitting business and industry out of the UK to countries with less onerous regulations, with all the job losses and wealth drain from ordinary people that it will entail.

And what will we achieve?  The source of emissions will be transferred elsewhere, the source of wealth will be transferred elsewhere and we will just import stuff that we used to produce here.... 

The UK has one of the cleanest economies on the planet and accounts for about 1% of global emissions, but apparently we have to put ourselves back to the stoneage to save the planet!  It's just madness! 

Yes the 2025 target is not achievable, but the 2050 should be if everyone in power puts there efforts into cutting emissions. Targets are never easy to achieve; they normally drive business and people to work harder and focus their minds on meeting the objectives. So that is why even the latter one appears "hard" to achieve.

As for the movement of emissions elsewhere, you are about 30 years too late with that one. When the coal mines closed down, the steel plants were dramatically reduced, and our car plants greatly minimised, did our economy become even more the "poor man of Europe" as it had in the 1970's? No, our economy moved into the high tech industries, with us being the fifth largest economy in the World - we really lost the top spot for engineering output, and everything else by 1900 - and our environment has gained from that tremendously.

Why should then the movement of our emissions, which you state is only 1% of the World, emissions, be greatly detrimental to the UK?  No, it is the likes of China that must be brought back from highly polluting the World's environment, and we must stop buying from them until they do. The USA is also guilty of not doing more to reduce emissions, with Trump standing in the way of progress.

So, the whole World must, in it's own interests, do all it can to protect the environment, both at government and individuals levels.

[dave the builder]

In that case, it might be time to become a wholesale butcher. In China...

No good, as we all have to become vegans........ 

To save the planet! 

OR Cannibals 

[STEMO]

In that case, it might be time to become a wholesale butcher. In China...

No good, as we all have to become vegans........ 

To save the planet! 

OR Cannibals 

Now that's a fickin good idea 
I'm not eating any fat people, though, my cholesterol is a bit high.

[Sir Tigger KC]

As for the movement of emissions elsewhere, you are about 30 years too late with that one. When the coal mines closed down, the steel plants were dramatically reduced, and our car plants greatly minimised, did our economy become even more the "poor man of Europe" as it had in the 1970's? No, our economy moved into the high tech industries, with us being the fifth largest economy in the World - we really lost the top spot for engineering output, and everything else by 1900 - and our environment has gained from that tremendously.

Actually car production has increased dramatically in recent years.  Longbridge and Dagenham closed down sure, but others like Nissan, Honda, Peugeot, Mini, JLR have set up and thrived!    (Until very recently of course...  )  Don't forget other thriving manufacturers like JCB as well! 

Why should then the movement of our emissions, which you state is only 1% of the World, emissions, be greatly detrimental to the UK?

Well lets take JCB for example.  They decide that it's become too expensive to manufacture in the UK with carbon taxes, expensive energy etc and they are no longer competitive, so they move to Indonesia (say) where the environmental controls are lax.  That's 7600 jobs lost, plus the wider impact on the economy and then UK construction firms, farmers etc who are JCB customers end up importing the product which now probably has a bigger impact on the environment due to the lax laws, plus transportation. 

A quick google tells me the 2.7 million people are employed in manufacturing in the UK, earning an average of £32,000 and it accounts for 11% of GDP.  That would be very detrimental if we make this country too expensive and uncompetitive with over stringent laws that drives businesses overseas! 

You are right though, the pressure should be applied to the likes of China, Russia and Trumpyland! 

I think that the climate 'rebels' should go and fly their drones around airports in New York, Moscow or Beijing!   

See how they get on!   

[Raeturbo]

As for the movement of emissions elsewhere, you are about 30 years too late with that one. When the coal mines closed down, the steel plants were dramatically reduced, and our car plants greatly minimised, did our economy become even more the "poor man of Europe" as it had in the 1970's? No, our economy moved into the high tech industries, with us being the fifth largest economy in the World - we really lost the top spot for engineering output, and everything else by 1900 - and our environment has gained from that tremendously.

Actually car production has increased dramatically in recent years.  Longbridge and Dagenham closed down sure, but others like Nissan, Honda, Peugeot, Mini, JLR have set up and thrived!    (Until very recently of course...  )  Don't forget other thriving manufacturers like JCB as well! 

Why should then the movement of our emissions, which you state is only 1% of the World, emissions, be greatly detrimental to the UK?

Well lets take JCB for example.  They decide that it's become too expensive to manufacture in the UK with carbon taxes, expensive energy etc and they are no longer competitive, so they move to Indonesia (say) where the environmental controls are lax.  That's 7600 jobs lost, plus the wider impact on the economy and then UK construction firms, farmers etc who are JCB customers end up importing the product which now probably has a bigger impact on the environment due to the lax laws, plus transportation. 

A quick google tells me the 2.7 million people are employed in manufacturing in the UK, earning an average of £32,000 and it accounts for 11% of GDP.  That would be very detrimental if we make this country too expensive and uncompetitive with over stringent laws that drives businesses overseas! 

You are right though, the pressure should be applied to the likes of China, Russia and Trumpyland! 

I think that the climate 'rebels' should go and fly their drones around airports in New York, Moscow or Beijing!   

See how they get on!    .     ^^^^^ THIS^^^^ So true.

[dave the builder]

In that case, it might be time to become a wholesale butcher. In China...

No good, as we all have to become vegans........ 

To save the planet! 

OR Cannibals 

Now that's a fickin good idea 
I'm not eating any fat people, though, my cholesterol is a bit high.

obviously you'd check they where fit and healthy BEFORE you eat them 
slow cooking makes meat tender and the fat falls off the meat
though rapid crisping like grilling with a sprinkle of salt ,produces a very moreish dish, pork scratchings and crispy bacon has been the downfall of many ,less strong willed "Vegetarians " 

[BazaJT]

Lizzie for someone who speaks so passionately about climate change/saving the planet to then say she's going to run a 3.2 Omega to the death is slightly contradictory don't you think You may not do a lot of mileage but surely that could be achieved in something more economical/less polluting?

[dave the builder]

Lizzie for someone who speaks so passionately about climate change/saving the planet to then say she's going to run a 3.2 Omega to the death is slightly contradictory don't you think You may not do a lot of mileage but surely that could be achieved in something more economical/less polluting?

less pollution than scrapping an omega, which uses lots of energy to recycle,add to that the energy required (and pollution produced) to build a new car ,ship it around the world to the end user .
cars are manufactured to last 8 to 10 years of use , so anyone driving a car 16+ years has got 2 cars worth of use out of it 
plus ,when I took mine for MOT, with a fancy emissions test machine plugged in , the emissions where zero
I follow some much newer cars that are chucking out more smoke than a 90s rave 
add electric cars into the mix,the pollution and environmental impact of mining and processing the raw material to make the batteries ,let alone the rest of the car, and all the energy and pollution to get the electricity to charge the battery . which may last 8 years 

[Lizzie Zoom]

As for the movement of emissions elsewhere, you are about 30 years too late with that one. When the coal mines closed down, the steel plants were dramatically reduced, and our car plants greatly minimised, did our economy become even more the "poor man of Europe" as it had in the 1970's? No, our economy moved into the high tech industries, with us being the fifth largest economy in the World - we really lost the top spot for engineering output, and everything else by 1900 - and our environment has gained from that tremendously.

Actually car production has increased dramatically in recent years.  Longbridge and Dagenham closed down sure, but others like Nissan, Honda, Peugeot, Mini, JLR have set up and thrived!    (Until very recently of course...  )  Don't forget other thriving manufacturers like JCB as well! 

Why should then the movement of our emissions, which you state is only 1% of the World, emissions, be greatly detrimental to the UK?

Well lets take JCB for example.  They decide that it's become too expensive to manufacture in the UK with carbon taxes, expensive energy etc and they are no longer competitive, so they move to Indonesia (say) where the environmental controls are lax.  That's 7600 jobs lost, plus the wider impact on the economy and then UK construction firms, farmers etc who are JCB customers end up importing the product which now probably has a bigger impact on the environment due to the lax laws, plus transportation. 

A quick google tells me the 2.7 million people are employed in manufacturing in the UK, earning an average of £32,000 and it accounts for 11% of GDP.  That would be very detrimental if we make this country too expensive and uncompetitive with over stringent laws that drives businesses overseas! 

You are right though, the pressure should be applied to the likes of China, Russia and Trumpyland! 

I think that the climate 'rebels' should go and fly their drones around airports in New York, Moscow or Beijing!   

See how they get on!   

Yes, exactly, FOREIGN car manufacturers who ship in many of their parts for the cars purely to be assembled - unlike the true BRITISH car manufacturers of the past - so any emissions reduction will not affect them as a great percentage of the parts are made in foreign lands.

As for the industry doing so well:
July 2019 Overview


So, don't think so!!

As for the example of JCB, that is just one company who decided some time ago to get cheaper workers in distant countries to make their products, so nothing to do with emission controls.

As for UK manufacturing, it has increased by 1.4% since 1948, even after the savage cuts of the 1960's/70's.
However, just 18% of the UK's GDP came from the manufacturing industry, with over 70% from the services sector. So, an enormous part of the UK's GDP is generated by the services sector, and tourism in particular keeps the economy going.

Therefore, any additional emissions controls will have an absolutely minimal effect. In any case, UK manufacturing is "thriving" according to  the themanufacturer.com website, with , rarely for me, cutting and pasting the following from their pages to reinforce my argument:

"Manufacturing contributes £6.7 trillion to the global economy. Contrary to widespread perceptions, UK manufacturing is thriving, with the UK currently the world’s eighth largest industrial nation. If current growth trends continue, the UK will break into the top five by 2021. In the UK, manufacturing makes up 11% of GVA, 44% of total UK exports, 70% of business R&D, and directly employs 2.6 million people."[/i

I have also heard that UK companies are bringing manufacturing back to the UK from abroad, for various reasons, and the "threat" of additional emissions controls are doing nothing to stop that trend. Why should it?  If modern British companies, using modern technology, do not produce anything like the emissions, and waste, that damaged our environment in the past, what is their further to cut?  Even the power supply has reached a renewable capacity of 42.1GW in 2018 from 1.4 Gigawatt (GW) in 2000, out of a total  generated of 62GW, with 75GW maximum capacity . 

So everyone can panic over what effect the further cutting of emissions will have, but there is absolutely no need in the UK.
It is, I repeat, now down to China and the USA. So, let us ALL stop buying products made in China, when quality alternatives are available in the UK, even if they cost a few pence more!

 

[Lizzie Zoom]

Lizzie for someone who speaks so passionately about climate change/saving the planet to then say she's going to run a 3.2 Omega to the death is slightly contradictory don't you think You may not do a lot of mileage but surely that could be achieved in something more economical/less polluting?

Why?

My car has been built, the emissions created during that build went up into the sky long ago.  Another, much newer, electric or hybrid  car would mean the manufacturer producing even more emissions, so it is far better to 'recycle' my car in the best possible way.  That fact is compounded by the fact I could not possibly afford a new electric or hybrid car, and so far there are no provisions around our low rise blocks of flats to provide recharging points.

No, the best thing I can now continue to do is keep my annual mileage to below 4,000 - it was over 100,000 per year - and keep 'recycling' the vehicle I have until my driving days are over, which is probably not that far off!

I have also cut my use of electricity, gas, and water by using my washing machines only half the times I did - not 52+ times a year, but about 26 times a year.  My home is also fully equipped with energy saving light bulbs and appliances, that has dramatically reduced my energy use.  I also cook all my own meals, often in bulk to save gas and electric, freezing them down in portions, so not causing unnecessary energy use 'elsewhere' by buying any form of ready cooked meals. I shower and not use the bath. I have also cut my clothes shopping dramatically, recycling and re-using as much as possible, which a new trend in women's fashion is echoing.  I have also gone completely "paperless" with all bills and statements doing as much business as I can online, not driving my car to distant shopping locations. Oh, and yes, I recycle everything I can!!

I am doing my bit as much as age and finances allows!

So, my conscience is as clear as it can be, given I am a child of the polluted, and constantly polluting, 1950's.
Is all your consciences as clear?

[BazaJT]

You don't have to buy a new car of any type.A smaller/more economical car of similar age to your 3.2 would do just as well.My conscience is very clear,I use very little electricity and gas,many of the foodstuffs I buy loose therefore cutting down on packaging.I have the smallest wheelie bin size available and at the end of a fortnight[the collection rota] if the general waste bin is a third full I've over used it that fortnight,the plastics/cardboard bin I can easily fit a fortnights worth in something the size of a carrier bag.

[Lizzie Zoom]

You don't have to buy a new car of any type.A smaller/more economical car of similar age to your 3.2 would do just as well.My conscience is very clear,I use very little electricity and gas,many of the foodstuffs I buy loose therefore cutting down on packaging.I have the smallest wheelie bin size available and at the end of a fortnight[the collection rota] if the general waste bin is a third full I've over used it that fortnight,the plastics/cardboard bin I can easily fit a fortnights worth in something the size of a carrier bag.

A car that I would have to spend money, I have not got spare, to get, of uncertain mechanical condition, another probably would not be that much more economical given the low mileage I do, when I do what I can anyway.

Now if those who are interested in my car use would like to pay into crowd funding for me to get a nice, new, hybrid.........................!!

I was not having a go at you Baza, but just asking that general question as many do NOT do already what we do but are the first to complain about everyone "banging" on about environmental issues!

[Sir Tigger KC]

Um... Where to start?   

Yes, exactly, FOREIGN car manufacturers who ship in many of their parts for the cars purely to be assembled - unlike the true BRITISH car manufacturers of the past - so any emissions reduction will not affect them as a great percentage of the parts are made in foreign lands.

As for the industry doing so well:
July 2019 Overview


So, don't think so!!

I think that you'll find that the main reason for the recent decline in the fortunes of the car manufacturers not just in the UK, but globally, has been because of tougher emissions regulations for diesel engines.    A tad ironic perhaps? 

As for the example of JCB, that is just one company who decided some time ago to get cheaper workers in distant countries to make their products, so nothing to do with emission controls.

Yes JCB are global Lizzie and have plants worldwide including the UK where they employ 7600 people.  I'm sure they have their finger on the pulse, and doubt they would have any particular loyalty to this country if we regulate ourselves into uncompetitiveness. 

Manufacturing might well be thriving at the moment and the weaker pound has helped the exporters, but that's because we are largely competitive for a modern, advanced economy.  That is key though.. competitiveness.. which if we follow the demands of the climate fanatics we won't be anymore, and we'll end up living in mudhuts eating grass and trying not to fart!   

I'm not going to get into a tit for tat with on this Lizzie.  You are welcome to the last word. 

[STEMO]

Hmmm......I use as much electricity and gas as I like, drive everywhere and throw 'newish' stuff away all the time.
I'll come quietly, officer. 


I see 'mister moneybags' Mike Mansfield has finally gone off his rocker. In a speech to a lunatic vegan fringe at the Labour party conference, he is calling for meat eating to be outlawed and perpetrators charged with ecocide.