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Author Topic: Greece  (Read 2091 times)

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Rods2

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Greece
« on: 30 June 2015, 00:11:32 »

Since independence in 1826 the country has spent ~50% of the time in a Sovereign default. Looks like they will be adding to this from Wednesday onwards. :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[

They should have defaulted and devalued back in 2010, but with their financial record would it have really made much difference? 190 years of living beyond your means and being bust for ~50% of the time as a result, can hardly be called a prudent country living within its means. :o :o :o :o

Where it will make a difference is that all the EU taxpayers are picking up the bill, rather than in 2010 when it would have been mainly the greedy French and German banks who were happy to lend Greece Government money, so they could retire at 50 on generous pensions and also Greek consumers so they could buy their BMWs and Renaults etc.

Now it will be all those that contributed to the IMF (much of the world, including very generous amounts by Gordon Brown on behalf of UK taxpayers), ECB (Eurozone countries) and EU (most EU countries, again Gordon Brown was very generous with our money in 2010, days before he was kicked out of no. 10) bailout funds. The reality which has been obvious from 2010 is that Greece is bust and all that has happened for 5 years is that the fools running the IMF, ECB and EU have been tapped up to keep the Greek lifestyle plates spinning a bit longer. Yes, the Greeks have suffered and they get my sympathy for all of 2 seconds, until you realise that 80% want to stay in the Euro, in other words to have their cake and eat it, at the rest of the world's, EU's and Eurozones expense. :( :( :( :( The most sensible country has been Finland who made Greece pledge assets against their loans, that they can foreclose on (in theory), to cover any default losses.

Where the fun may well really begin is if/when Greece refuses to honour their TARGET 2 commitments, which would result in Germany suffering over a €1tn loss. Wars have been started, fought, won and lost over less. :o :o :o :o

The reality is that Greece has been given longer than the likes Spain, Portugal and Ireland to reform their economy and, unlike the latter countries that are recovering, have done very little to do so. The EU austerity medicine has been a very poor route to adjusting Eurozone competitiveness (as a substitute for exchange rates and capital transfers) and this has been made worse by Germany cheating on Eurozone agreed, money expansion, inflation and wage targets, to obtain a competitive advantage. >:( >:( >:( >:(

Add in the arrogant gobshites who form the current Greek government, who think they can dictate unreasonable terms to their creditors and they won't foreclose and this means, IMO, you can add stupidity to the current Greek Government's list of non-achievements. As a negotiating tactic this is about as likely to work as playing ABBA as background music, while trying to negotiate, with an overly sensitive OOF admin, the return of your post count. :P :o :o :o

Has Greece got a plan B? Yes, and it will involve Putin, but where Russia also has major financial problems, I think they will end up disappointed with what they manage to tap him up for, while they play at being his useful geopolitical fools. Don't be surprised if Greece is also the first country to be also forced out of the EU and maybe even NATO. :D :D :D :D
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EMD

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Re: Greece
« Reply #1 on: 30 June 2015, 07:49:17 »

Just makes you wonder what kind of panic would happen here in the uk if we were in that situation  :( 
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Migv6 le Frog Fan

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Re: Greece
« Reply #2 on: 30 June 2015, 09:55:40 »

Had we joined the euro when a lot of "experts" said it would be economically catastrophic if we didnt, we would now be in that situation.
Unbelievably those same "experts"* are now preaching that to leave the EU would be economically catastrophic.  ::)

* Heseltine, Clarke, Blair, Branson, the CBI,almost anyone of a left wing persuasion who isn't a real socialist, most global conglomerates. Strange bedfellows, who between them always fail to make a compelling case, and resort to fear tactics instead.
« Last Edit: 30 June 2015, 10:07:37 by Migv6 »
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Varche

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Re: Greece
« Reply #3 on: 30 June 2015, 10:17:26 »

Extract from a letter to the Gaurdian

• I thought the vision of Syriza was to be a radical left party. As a left-of-centre voter I have been a tad disappointed. I was hoping for a government that would do everything and anything except sticking it to the poor. I see a standard issue Greek government.
Did it go into coalition with its nearest left liberal party? Nope it chose the right-wing populist ANEL, led by a well-known anti-semite.
I thought it would slash the grotesque defense budget (seventh highest per capita in the world). Who are Greece's enemies? All its neighbours are in NATO, for goodness sake. Does it really need more than twice as many tanks as Germany? No, cosmetic reductions only.
I thought it would tell the church to stand on its own two feet. They could stop paying the priests. Where else does the state pay the church's salaries? The church could sell off some off its vast land holdings to fund itself. Nope, no change there either.
I hoped it would sort out the pension mess. No more early retirements, no more 'dangerous professions' (like keyboard input operators), no more second and third pensions from the state. In Greece 49% of families rely mainly on pensions for income, 36% on a wage or other income. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to tell you that is not sustainable. They have finally proposed that they may finally change the system in 2016. But all existing benefits accrued will be retained.
I thought they might set up a land registry, so people could know who owned what land and buy/sell it more easily; thereby boosting the economy. No, they set up a new television station instead and gave the new jobs to their mates.
They have spent all their energy fighting with absolutely everyone. Imagine if that energy had been spent reforming the tax collection system so that the rich and the professionals actually paid their share of taxation.
They did announce food vouchers for the poorest, but because there is no money only 1,000 have received these. I hoped they would privatise loss-making industries and use the funds for the poor. Nope , they are rolling back on those too.
In order to keep paying their pensions and wages they stopped paying suppliers in March. These are now going bust adding to the unemployment.
The IMF medicine is horrible: slashing public expenditure to bring it back in line with income AND reforms to make your economy more competitive. Taking the first bit without the second is self-defeating.
So let's have some radical policies please. Slash defence expenditure and flog off all that expensive weaponry. Tell the church to stand on its own two feet, or better, nationalise its extensive land holdings. Privatise the loss-makers in return for investment and jobs. Spend the money on the poor. In short: do what you were elected to do.
Oh, and stop quoting FDR. There was a man who got things done, just compare his 100 days to Syriza's sad five months

That, and a comment on Radio 4 from Robert Peston about Finance Minister and 'games theorist' Varoufakis:

He says things that are logically consistent but which practically are unachievable'.
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tigers_gonads

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Re: Greece
« Reply #4 on: 30 June 2015, 11:03:43 »

Am I the only one on here that thinks that Syriza has been stringing Frau Merkal and the European Bank along for quite a while to get more cash but underestimated the speed to which the Greek public reacted this time by pulling the cash out of the banks  :-\
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aaronjb

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Re: Greece
« Reply #5 on: 30 June 2015, 11:25:53 »

Am I the only one who thinks none of this really matters because regardless of how much pontificating and hand wringing is done here and elsewhere, none of us can affect any change in the potential outcomes?

Oh, and if you really care you can donate to Greece: https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/greek-bailout-fund#/story ;)
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redelitev6

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Re: Greece
« Reply #6 on: 30 June 2015, 11:45:58 »

 :( This was always going to end badly , they fiddled the books to get Greece to meet the financial criteria to join the single currency and now it's come back to haunt them big style . So much for the European dream !
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The Sheriff

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Re: Greece
« Reply #7 on: 30 June 2015, 11:46:31 »

Am I the only one who doesn't give a shit?
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Field Marshal Dr. Opti

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Re: Greece
« Reply #8 on: 30 June 2015, 11:59:04 »

Extract from a letter to the Gaurdian

I thought the vision of Syriza was to be a radical left party. As a left-of-centre voter I have been a tad disappointed. I was hoping for a government that would do everything and anything except sticking it to the poor. I see a standard issue Greek government.
Did it go into coalition with its nearest left liberal party? Nope it chose the right-wing populist ANEL, led by a well-known anti-semite.
I thought it would slash the grotesque defense budget (seventh highest per capita in the world). Who are Greece's enemies? All its neighbours are in NATO, for goodness sake. Does it really need more than twice as many tanks as Germany? No, cosmetic reductions only.
I thought it would tell the church to stand on its own two feet. They could stop paying the priests. Where else does the state pay the church's salaries? The church could sell off some off its vast land holdings to fund itself. Nope, no change there either.
I hoped it would sort out the pension mess. No more early retirements, no more 'dangerous professions' (like keyboard input operators), no more second and third pensions from the state. In Greece 49% of families rely mainly on pensions for income, 36% on a wage or other income. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to tell you that is not sustainable. They have finally proposed that they may finally change the system in 2016. But all existing benefits accrued will be retained.
I thought they might set up a land registry, so people could know who owned what land and buy/sell it more easily; thereby boosting the economy. No, they set up a new television station instead and gave the new jobs to their mates.
They have spent all their energy fighting with absolutely everyone. Imagine if that energy had been spent reforming the tax collection system so that the rich and the professionals actually paid their share of taxation.
They did announce food vouchers for the poorest, but because there is no money only 1,000 have received these. I hoped they
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tigers_gonads

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Re: Greece
« Reply #9 on: 30 June 2015, 14:05:23 »

Am I the only one who doesn't give a shit?


Great place for a cheep holiday Greece
Bring back the Drachma  :y :y
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driver115

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Re: Greece
« Reply #10 on: 30 June 2015, 14:36:30 »

Greece likely to default on the IMF loan , most of S America did as I recall, and probably some African states back in the 70/80`s, was any of these loans repaid/settled with favours ?Part payment to ECB, borrow from Peter to pay Paul syndrome, fudge will continue to drag out the mess, and when Greece goes, others likely to follow unless the decision is made to press the reset button. 8)
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Varche

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Re: Greece
« Reply #11 on: 30 June 2015, 15:08:23 »

Am I the only one who thinks none of this really matters because regardless of how much pontificating and hand wringing is done here and elsewhere, none of us can affect any change in the potential outcomes?

Oh, and if you really care you can donate to Greece: https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/greek-bailout-fund#/story ;)

True unless you are a voter. In Greece you can vote in or out lwft wing parties. In Spain ditto with the Podemos party who want to emulate Syrizia. So technically if you had the same mad scenario in Britain you could vote against it. In fact you probably have already which is why you are not in the same mess as Greece!
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Phil L

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Re: Greece
« Reply #12 on: 30 June 2015, 19:38:06 »

Am I the only one who doesn't give a shit?
Nope
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Keith ABS

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Re: Greece
« Reply #13 on: 30 June 2015, 20:03:27 »

  Prehaps if the Greeks had a tax system where everyone actually pays tax they would not be in such a position. The wealthyest Greeks pay nothing at all. at least the wealthy here do pay something

keith B
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Varche

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Re: Greece
« Reply #14 on: 02 July 2015, 13:37:52 »

So they are having a referendum on Sunday.

What chances if it goes YES, of the government standing down and the EU sending in their own "government" and tax collectors, purely as an interim of course, until the Greek people vote correctly and elect a moderate toe the EU line parliament. ;D ;D   They did a similar stunt with Italy. There would be democracy for you.
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