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Author Topic: Third runway London- how will it pan out?  (Read 9637 times)

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LC0112G

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Re: Third runway London- how will it pan out?
« Reply #60 on: 02 July 2015, 18:27:45 »

But they will eventually, because access and infrastructure will have been put in place! Again you are thinking short term. See my post above. :y

No - it's basic chicken and egg stuff. No-one will fund an airport with no connections, and no-one can afford to fund an airport AND connections. Things have to be built within the constraints of the existing infrastructure, or with minimal alterations/additions (meaning cheap) to it. New motorways and high speed trains to a non existant islands in the middle of the Thames - no chance.
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Sir Tigger KC

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Re: Third runway London- how will it pan out?
« Reply #61 on: 02 July 2015, 19:13:52 »

But they will eventually, because access and infrastructure will have been put in place! Again you are thinking short term. See my post above. :y

No - it's basic chicken and egg stuff. No-one will fund an airport with no connections, and no-one can afford to fund an airport AND connections. Things have to be built within the constraints of the existing infrastructure, or with minimal alterations/additions (meaning cheap) to it. New motorways and high speed trains to a non existant islands in the middle of the Thames - no chance.

It was done in Hong Kong when the new airport was built there in the 1990's, ironically by mostly British companies.   :y

Granted the 'indentured' Filipino and Nepalese workforce meant that costs were much lower. ::)
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LC0112G

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Re: Third runway London- how will it pan out?
« Reply #62 on: 02 July 2015, 19:28:06 »

It was done in Hong Kong when the new airport was built there in the 1990's, ironically by mostly British companies.   :y

Granted the 'indentured' Filipino and Nepalese workforce meant that costs were much lower. ::)

I didn't say it can't be done. I'm saying it won't be done here - for both monetary and political reasons. Osaka also built a new airport in the middle of the sea, and the USMC are supposed to be building a new airbase off the coast of Japan so they can move out of Iwakuni.

Plenty of new airports have been built on land out of city the cities they serve - off the top of my head Munich, Dallas, Narita, Berlin, Shanghai, Arlanda. Even Charles de Gaule is basically a new airport. Heathrow was a new airport once with 6 runways. It replaced Croyden and Northolt.
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05omegav6

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Re: Third runway London- how will it pan out?
« Reply #63 on: 02 July 2015, 19:58:39 »

It was done in Hong Kong when the new airport was built there in the 1990's, ironically by mostly British companies.   :y

Granted the 'indentured' Filipino and Nepalese workforce meant that costs were much lower. ::)

I didn't say it can't be done. I'm saying it won't be done here - for both monetary and political reasons. Osaka also built a new airport in the middle of the sea, and the USMC are supposed to be building a new airbase off the coast of Japan so they can move out of Iwakuni.

Plenty of new airports have been built on land out of city the cities they serve - off the top of my head Munich, Dallas, Narita, Berlin, Shanghai, Arlanda. Even Charles de Gaule is basically a new airport. Heathrow was a new airport once with 6 runways. It replaced Croyden and Northolt.
Worth noting that Gatwick has grown and developed alongside Croydon, and later, Heathrow. It isn't an alternative, it is an as well as ;)
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Re: Third runway London- how will it pan out?
« Reply #64 on: 02 July 2015, 20:26:31 »

I don't see what all the discussion is about. The population of the world will continue to grow exponentially, sooner or later every piece of real estate that exists will be used for a purpose. Then, unless we get to another planet or do a Logans run, we will all die.
Enjoy yourself, it's later than you think.

world population 7 billion, isle of anglesey 7.7 billion square feet. we can all fit there with 1 square foot each.  some people could even have a garden :)
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Mind you, organising 'Newent-on-Anglesea' would be a piece of cake ;D
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Re: Third runway London- how will it pan out?
« Reply #65 on: 02 July 2015, 20:54:55 »

I apologise if for some reason it is thought that I am suggesting that a 'Boris Island' or similar will happen in the near future, merely, for the reasons advocated above, that it should. Given that it is 50 years or so since the Wing airport proposal was abandoned, it may well be 100 years before a BI is built, but given the continuing population increase in this country, and the fact that the demand for air travel grows almost exponentially, eventually it is inevitable that the option to add more runway capacity at existing airports will not be available. So, unless the country becomes a dictatorship, it will become necessary to build an airport in 'free' space, no matter how strategically and logistically impossible it may appear to us at the moment. It will happen eventually, therefore I argue that better sooner rather than later. However given, as I suggested earlier, that politicians invariably take a short term view - i.e. How many votes is this worth at the next election? - I have no doubt that, as usual, they will either fudge the issue, or go for one of the proposed options, which IMHO is selling the country short in the long term.:y
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Re: Third runway London- how will it pan out?
« Reply #66 on: 02 July 2015, 21:01:01 »

It was done in Hong Kong when the new airport was built there in the 1990's, ironically by mostly British companies.   :y

Granted the 'indentured' Filipino and Nepalese workforce meant that costs were much lower. ::)

I didn't say it can't be done. I'm saying it won't be done here - for both monetary and political reasons. Osaka also built a new airport in the middle of the sea, and the USMC are supposed to be building a new airbase off the coast of Japan so they can move out of Iwakuni.

Plenty of new airports have been built on land out of city the cities they serve - off the top of my head Munich, Dallas, Narita, Berlin, Shanghai, Arlanda. Even Charles de Gaule is basically a new airport. Heathrow was a new airport once with 6 runways. It replaced Croyden and Northolt.
Worth noting that Gatwick has grown and developed alongside Croydon, and later, Heathrow. It isn't an alternative, it is an as well as ;)
Gatwick's issue is that it is an r-sole to get to for virtually everyone, with relatively poor links.
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Rods2

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Re: Third runway London- how will it pan out?
« Reply #67 on: 02 July 2015, 22:17:05 »

By the time they build Boris Island, we will all be using supersonic maglev trains and it will be obsolete. ::) ::) ::)

The first very high speed trains like Musks' Hyperloop are probably 20 to 30 years away and supersonic maglev trains about 50 years and will run in semi-vacuum tubes. :y :y :y One advantage of maglev trains over aircraft is energy efficiency as much of the energy used for accelerating them up to speed can be recovered with regenerative braking. :y :y :y
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05omegav6

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Re: Third runway London- how will it pan out?
« Reply #68 on: 02 July 2015, 22:29:30 »

It was done in Hong Kong when the new airport was built there in the 1990's, ironically by mostly British companies.   :y

Granted the 'indentured' Filipino and Nepalese workforce meant that costs were much lower. ::)

I didn't say it can't be done. I'm saying it won't be done here - for both monetary and political reasons. Osaka also built a new airport in the middle of the sea, and the USMC are supposed to be building a new airbase off the coast of Japan so they can move out of Iwakuni.

Plenty of new airports have been built on land out of city the cities they serve - off the top of my head Munich, Dallas, Narita, Berlin, Shanghai, Arlanda. Even Charles de Gaule is basically a new airport. Heathrow was a new airport once with 6 runways. It replaced Croyden and Northolt.
Worth noting that Gatwick has grown and developed alongside Croydon, and later, Heathrow. It isn't an alternative, it is an as well as ;)
Gatwick's issue is that it is an r-sole to get to for virtually everyone, with relatively poor links.
Is it really? One junction from the M25, and on the Victoria/Brighton mainline... ::)

True, it might be a bit further round the M25 from Brackley on Sea, but then Heathrow is hardly convenient for anyone east of the M1 :D
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Rods2

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Re: Third runway London- how will it pan out?
« Reply #69 on: 02 July 2015, 22:41:06 »

It was done in Hong Kong when the new airport was built there in the 1990's, ironically by mostly British companies.   :y

Granted the 'indentured' Filipino and Nepalese workforce meant that costs were much lower. ::)

I didn't say it can't be done. I'm saying it won't be done here - for both monetary and political reasons. Osaka also built a new airport in the middle of the sea, and the USMC are supposed to be building a new airbase off the coast of Japan so they can move out of Iwakuni.

Plenty of new airports have been built on land out of city the cities they serve - off the top of my head Munich, Dallas, Narita, Berlin, Shanghai, Arlanda. Even Charles de Gaule is basically a new airport. Heathrow was a new airport once with 6 runways. It replaced Croyden and Northolt.
Worth noting that Gatwick has grown and developed alongside Croydon, and later, Heathrow. It isn't an alternative, it is an as well as ;)
Gatwick's issue is that it is an r-sole to get to for virtually everyone, with relatively poor links.
Is it really? One junction from the M25, and on the Victoria/Brighton mainline... ::)

True, it might be a bit further round the M25 from Brackley on Sea, but then Heathrow is hardly convenient for anyone east of the M1 :D

Don't forget the Reading / Redhill Gatwick slug. 3 carriage DMUs, this makes it an easy journey for me, when it is running as they seem to often breakdown. :o :o :o
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05omegav6

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Re: Third runway London- how will it pan out?
« Reply #70 on: 02 July 2015, 22:56:24 »

You can actually get direct trains all over the place from Gatwick, upto Bedford or Reading without changing... and actually allowing for a single change, you have access to pretty much anywhere in the UK :y
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Sir Tigger KC

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Re: Third runway London- how will it pan out?
« Reply #71 on: 02 July 2015, 23:20:54 »

By the time they build Boris Island, we will all be using teleportation and it will be obsolete. ::) ::) ::)



Beam me up Scotty!  ;D
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Lazydocker

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Re: Third runway London- how will it pan out?
« Reply #72 on: 03 July 2015, 09:37:17 »

Like it or not, Heathrow is the only viable option for another London Runway... Stanstead and Luton have night flight restrictions. Gatwick might, but they were supposed to have been lifted a while back to a reduction instead of stop.

Heathrow is served by a good motorway network (on paper, we all know it struggles), tube and coaches. It has the land and, like it or not, one of the easiest approaches for the aircraft.

Gatwick has a mainline train... Other than that it struggles. The road approach is limited. Plus, and more importantly, the land surrounding it would need a lot of expensive work to make it suitable due to flooding and lack of infrastructure.

Now Stanstead would make a little sense if it wasn't one of the main European options for hijacked aircraft... Get one of those in and the airport is locked down ::)

Luton has to close in bad weather because of the high population density around the airfield and, I believe, a runway too short to allow a decent margin of error when having to land purely on ILS.

Southend has expanded but, again, doesn't have the infrastructure to support another runway.

Boris Island? Just moronic really... A great idea in principle but completely impractical.

Nope, I'm afraid Heathrow just floats to the top every time. On the plus side, it will bring a lot of employment and money to the area ::)
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Re: Third runway London- how will it pan out?
« Reply #73 on: 03 July 2015, 09:49:53 »

Incidentally, the runway where I live is a shuttle landing option so suitable for heavy and long haul. I'd welcome the expansion and building of an airport. The compulsory purchase on my house would be just the push we need to emigrate! ::) :D
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05omegav6

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Re: Third runway London- how will it pan out?
« Reply #74 on: 03 July 2015, 10:21:28 »

Incidentally, the runway where I live is a shuttle landing option so suitable for heavy and long haul. I'd welcome the expansion and building of an airport. The compulsory purchase on my house would be just the push we need to emigrate! ::) :D
There are several suitable airfields dotted around... Unfortunately they are now housing estates (Greenham Common), in use (Brize Norton), or at the wrong end of the A11 (Lakenheath) ::)

So we're stuck with what we have, at least geographically...

Incidentally, don't tell Kevin, but I did a project at school proposing a brand new airport at West Tisted... iirc it's geographically suitable :D

The future could be smaller airports with heavy capacity, owned and operated by single carriers with feeder flights...

Not convinced? Take Dubai... Dnata is owned by the brother of the chap who owns Emirates. They operate Dubai airport and provide all the ground handling. They have just started operating the Emirates ground handling at Gatwick. Emirates happen to have large interest in Airbus, and also, more significantly in Easy Jet.

It wouldn't take much of a leap to acquire an underused RAF base, build a double sided Terminal with 10 A380 gates on one side and twenty A318/319/320/321 gates on the other.

The basic premise being that a single carrier could land all their longhaul flights from their home hub in one place and operate a regional feeder service using their local pet airline.

BA used to do it to good effect from Gatwick, they basically paid for the North Terminal (and later the runway extension), using Cityflyer as their regional shuttle to feed their European and International services.

If the government and airports don't do summat, some one will, and it's looking like the future could be orange, with an Arabian flourish :-\
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