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[Varche]

Should they be government supported?

Two interesting facts.

China has produced more steel in the last 23 months than Britain has since it started in the industrial revolution.

British steel is an efficient outfit.

A question. If Britain loses its steel making capability due to China undercutting, how do you make weaponry in the event of the next war? Buy the steel in from China?

[Sir Tigger KC]

It'll be painted as a victim of BREXIT, but isn't the cost of EU carbon credits also a factor? 

If so, given that we have one of the cleanest economies in the world, where's the sense in letting it fail and then importing steel from dirty economies like China etc?   

Also as Varche points out, it's a strategic industry so should be helped out, but wait that's against EU law!    and as we're destined to become a province of the USE there is no need for steel production in the UK as the state planners have already decreed that the USE's steel production will take place in Romania. 

[BazaJT]

As with many large industries it is not just the "headline" job loss figures but also the number of other jobs/businesses that support/are supported by British Steel.Whether this makes the case for government support/nationalization or not I'll leave for those cleverer than I to decide.Back in the '70s there was a"rush" to buy Russian steel because it was cheaper but was then found to be a very inferior product.Chinese steel may[or may not] now be on a par with British steel for quality whilst being cheaper,but if one country can kill the industry of another by flooding it with a cheaper product then what happens when country 1 has country 2 over a barrel and can dictate price/supply at will?

[Olympia5776]

A complex and difficult conundrum.
Irrespective of our vote to leave the EU my head says that we should maintain the strategic ability to produce steel for our own needs.
With Port Talbot being in a precarious state too it's a problem that will need addressing soon.
It's a classic example of the EU shadow having a long term effect on the base infrastructure of a member country by means of directional subsidies or preferential decisions .
The importation of lower cost Chinese ,or other foreign produced , steel is also something that is difficult to control in this day of international trade and with the still hoped for democratically decided Brexit  makes that even more arduous.
However , I trained as an Instrument Engineer at Ravenscraig Steel Works in Lanarkshire and seen the cavalier financial attitude that was enjoyed by both management and workers at that plant in the 70's and 80's when the nationalised money tree was in fruit.
That plant, and the ten others in the area closed for the correct reasons ,being built inland instead of on the coast , but the effect it had on the economy of the region was devastating and still being felt today .
I guess it's down to the value that a country places on it's free standing ability in the world.

[tunnie]

Should they be government supported?

Two interesting facts.

China has produced more steel in the last 23 months than Britain has since it started in the industrial revolution.

British steel is an efficient outfit.

A question. If Britain loses its steel making capability due to China undercutting, how do you make weaponry in the event of the next war? Buy the steel in from China?

Wow! 

[STEMO]

A complex and difficult conundrum.
Irrespective of our vote to leave the EU my head says that we should maintain the strategic ability to produce steel for our own needs.
With Port Talbot being in a precarious state too it's a problem that will need addressing soon.
It's a classic example of the EU shadow having a long term effect on the base infrastructure of a member country by means of directional subsidies or preferential decisions .
The importation of lower cost Chinese ,or other foreign produced , steel is also something that is difficult to control in this day of international trade and with the still hoped for democratically decided Brexit  makes that even more arduous.
However , I trained as an Instrument Engineer at Ravenscraig Steel Works in Lanarkshire and seen the cavalier financial attitude that was enjoyed by both management and workers at that plant in the 70's and 80's when the nationalised money tree was in fruit.
That plant, and the ten others in the area closed for the correct reasons ,being built inland instead of on the coast , but the effect it had on the economy of the region was devastating and still being felt today .
I guess it's down to the value that a country places on it's free standing ability in the world.

It's not just a case of keeping a steel production capability, Don, it's a case of making it competitive. Even British companies will buy Chinese steel if its half the price of home produced stuff.
Personally, if I was in government and so minded, I would subsidise them to the hilt, and f**k the EU. But our government would have to grow a spine first.

[Migalot]

Government assistance to British Steel is against EU law.

Another good reason to leave.

[Varche]

Does the EU allow renationalisation as per Corbyn?

The business secretary is going to give us an update later today.

[Migalot]

Does the EU allow renationalisation as per Corbyn?

The business secretary is going to give us an update later today.

Nope.

Always amuses me when Labour Remainers talk about Labour plans to renationalise this, that and the other. Are they that thick? (no need to answer!  )

[STEMO]

On the news now, it's gone into administration.

[TheBoy]

It'll be painted as a victim of BREXIT

Its what "we" voted for.

Every man and his dog could see that coming.  We've effectively shut off a sizeable chunk of their market, by making it uncompetitive.  And it absolutely, most definitely will not be the last of the British Manufacturing sector to die. Plain simple economics, so simple even I can grasp it, makes that a certainty.

In the case of British Steel, nobody from Europe was going to place orders, for fear that by the time it was delivered, it'd be slapped with an extra tariff.  And investors could see the only ever outcome, so stopped investing.  This comes as no surprise to absolutely anyone.

But is what "we" wanted.

[Andy B]

Should they be government supported?

Two interesting facts.

China has produced more steel in the last 23 months than Britain has since it started in the industrial revolution.

British steel is an efficient outfit.

 ....

Wow! 

That's what I thought too when I heard it on the radio earlier today ....

[Lizzie Zoom]

IT is sad, and I would love to have seen the days when British steel production, was fed by British coal, and that steel went to the numerous British ship yards to build British ships.

But after 1900 that boat started to leave port as Germany took over as the key industrial power, quickly followed by the rise of the USA as a superpower during their American century.

That then degenerated into what we see today, with the likes of China out producing everyone and providing quality steel at lower prices than most.

Like the coal mines, and shipbuilding, for the British they are "past" industries as the expertise now lies in high tech industries. The reason why this has happened I think is clear for all to see; there is no profit to be made in those industries as the British workforce, rightly, expect good, liveable wages,being earnt in healthy environments and not down a stinking hot pit nor in very hot and dangerous conditions that exist in a steel works.

During the 1960's and 1970' British governments threw huge amounts of money at those past industries , but even the Labour Party learnt to realise is was good money after bad as coal, steel, shipbuilding and even car production (in the old 1970' style) could never make a profit again.

I just cannot see how any government now can justify keeping British Steel going.  Even that company only a short time ago paid just £1 for the business at SLady bitshorpe, which reflected the fact the business was not viable and in a desperate situation. If Tata steel, or someone else can keep it all going, great.  But it must be a commercial decision, not a political one that will result in the British public paying a fortune for a non-viable business as happened in the past.  That money should go to other worthy causes, such as full support given to the steel workers who lose their jobs, including retraining for the younger ones, and a nice retirement package for the older ones if they want it.

As for our need to get steel in the time of war, well the USA could supply it, but frankly in any full blown World grade conflict there will be no time to worry about steel for tanks, ships, etc. If we survive the first few days, it will be as a result of using missles built in high tech factories with aluminium.

 

Why is it that when I typed the name of the steel works, Sc--thorpe, lady bits came up??!!

[Alnico Blue]

Should they be government supported?

Two interesting facts.

China has produced more steel in the last 23 months than Britain has since it started in the industrial revolution.

British steel is an efficient outfit.

A question. If Britain loses its steel making capability due to China undercutting, how do you make weaponry in the event of the next war? Buy the steel in from China?

Where did that "fact "come from  . . .seems wildly inaccurate . . .thats a lotta steel

[STEMO]

Should they be government supported?

Two interesting facts.

China has produced more steel in the last 23 months than Britain has since it started in the industrial revolution.

British steel is an efficient outfit.

A question. If Britain loses its steel making capability due to China undercutting, how do you make weaponry in the event of the next war? Buy the steel in from China?

Where did that "fact "come from  . . .seems wildly inaccurate . . .thats a lotta steel

There's a lot of Chinese, Al.

[Alnico Blue]

Should they be government supported?

Two interesting facts.

China has produced more steel in the last 23 months than Britain has since it started in the industrial revolution.

British steel is an efficient outfit.

A question. If Britain loses its steel making capability due to China undercutting, how do you make weaponry in the event of the next war? Buy the steel in from China?

Where did that "fact "come from  . . .seems wildly inaccurate . . .thats a lotta steel

There's a lot of Chinese, Al.

Can't argue with that Steve 

[TheBoy]

China has needed (and produced) a load of steel for itself.  The expansion in buildings, infrastructure and general manufacturing has created a massive demand within their country.

Although they export a fair chunk, its not as much as you think, as its deemed poorer quality than most.

[Varche]

Sadly I haven't the tech with me in Haggis land  to post a link.

Have a look on bbc.co.uk for the article . I have no reason to doubt the claim.

Have you a link to “ poorer quality” than most?  I would not be surprised to find it is on a par now. China excels at stealing tech, know how, designs and then building on them. For example have you seen their bridge building efforts or high speed trains.?

Anyway we aren't going to leave the EU , just be a subservient member. Things like a steel industry will just be a nuisance. We can buy warships from France for our contribution to the EU army.

[STEMO]

Sadly I haven't the tech with me in Haggis land  to post a link.

Have a look on bbc.co.uk for the article . I have no reason to doubt the claim.

Have you a link to “ poorer quality” than most?  I would not be surprised to find it is on a par now. China excels at stealing tech, know how, designs and then building on them. For example have you seen their bridge building efforts or high speed trains.?

Anyway we aren't going to leave the EU , just be a subservient member. Things like a steel industry will just be a nuisance. We can buy warships from France for our contribution to the EU army.

If we have any sort of war, can't we outsource it? There of lots of people in India and Pakistan that would fight Russians for much less than we pay our soldiers. They could provide their own weapons too, including nukes if required.

[tidla]

https://news.sky.com/story/the-surprising-facts-behind-the-declining-steel-industry-11725482

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

Rather than being caused by Brexit, it might have actually stood a chance of survival if Brexit had happened earlier. EU emissions rules make it very difficult to be globally competitive - rightly or wrongly. Many foreign competitors get a lot of state aid to keep them competitive. That is illegal in the EU - rightly or wrongly.
As mentioned, the "advanced" west has found it very difficult to compete in the old industries, with the "less developed" Far East. They are much less concerned with pollution, health & safety, wages, workers rights etc. etc.
Its been a long time since our future lay in heavy industry.

[TheBoy]

Rather than being caused by Brexit, it might have actually stood a chance of survival if Brexit had happened earlier.

Pass me a bit of what you've been smoking

(Hard) Brexit *will* bugger up your biggest export market, as immediately you are more expensive, and more hassle (thus cost) to deal with. I don't think anyone disagrees with that (ignoring those that still think the EU will roll over and let us kick them in the knackers, despite the evidence)


Whether or not British Steel could have survived long term under any circumstance is open for debate, and will never be known - but the new owners and investors seemed upbeat - but very, very, very clearly and obviously, as the whole world predicted, Brexit has definitely sent it on its way prematurely.

[STEMO]

Have I missed something? Didn't think brexit had occurred yet. 

[Nick W]

Have I missed something? Didn't think brexit had occurred yet. 

Big businesses have to think ahead. Unlike politicians who ought to, but are incapable of it.

[STEMO]

Have I missed something? Didn't think brexit had occurred yet. 

Big businesses have to think ahead. Unlike politicians who ought to, but are incapable of it.

Agreed, but they'd better not go too far, because it'll be further back when we remain.

[Varche]

Seems like the unacceptable face of capitalism having read more.

Greybull , the owners, buy companies for peanuts. Loan money at extortionate rates. Asset strip.

They made a profit from Comet and Monarch airlines. The government had to foot the bill for flying stranded passengers back.
On British steel , they bought a French steel company for circa £48 million out of the balance sheet recently. The government i.e. taxpayer no doubt will pay redundancy and maybe pensions too for the workers. Maybe the government ought to ask for the keys to the French steel business to cover its costs.

[TheBoy]

That's how venture capital firms and investment firms work

[New POD]

Government assistance to British Steel is against EU law.

Another good reason to leave.

Another reason to fully fund apprenceship schemes that the Government Funds, which is allowed.

[New POD]

Sadly I haven't the tech with me in Haggis land  to post a link.

Have a look on bbc.co.uk for the article . I have no reason to doubt the claim.

Have you a link to “ poorer quality” than most?  I would not be surprised to find it is on a par now. China excels at stealing tech, know how, designs and then building on them. For example have you seen their bridge building efforts or high speed trains.?

Anyway we aren't going to leave the EU , just be a subservient member. Things like a steel industry will just be a nuisance. We can buy warships from France for our contribution to the EU army.

If we have any sort of war, can't we outsource it? There of lots of people in India and Pakistan that would fight Russians for much less than we pay our soldiers. They could provide their own weapons too, including nukes if required.

I think we need to be clearer with Outsourcing call centres.  The contract should come with certain obligations.