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[Lizzie Zoom]

No one has mentioned it yet, but Ford are set to close their Bridgend engine plant in 2020, after 40 years in service.

Sign of the times and things to come, with electric engines now firmly on the scene?

1700 jobs are going

[Sir Tigger KC]

Very sad for Bridgend and comes hard on the heels of the Welsh government cancelling the M4 relief scheme at Newport, where the motorway becomes a car park twice a day during rush hour. 

I'm sure the newts on the Gwent levels are happy though. 

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

No one has mentioned it yet, but Ford are set to close their Bridgend engine plant in 2020, after 40 years in service.

Sign of the times and things to come, with electric engines now firmly on the scene?

1700 jobs are going

In Autocar magazine this week....

According to professor Ernst of Liege University it takes 435000 miles for an EV  using a 60 kWh battery before it is 'greener' than the average petrol car regarding it's Co2 footprint.

It looks like if it's not diesel cars killing black babies in Africa, it's the 4 door milk float.

[Lizzie Zoom]

No one has mentioned it yet, but Ford are set to close their Bridgend engine plant in 2020, after 40 years in service.

Sign of the times and things to come, with electric engines now firmly on the scene?

1700 jobs are going

In Autocar magazine this week....

According to professor Ernst of Liege University it takes 435000 miles for an EV  using a 60 kWh battery before it is 'greener' than the average petrol car regarding it's Co2 footprint.

It looks like if it's not diesel cars killing black babies in Africa, it's the 4 door milk float.

That makes me feel less guilty about intending to keep my 3.2, 21 mpg, lovely Omega Opti until the government of the day agrees to fully fund a Tesla for me

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

No one has mentioned it yet, but Ford are set to close their Bridgend engine plant in 2020, after 40 years in service.

Sign of the times and things to come, with electric engines now firmly on the scene?

1700 jobs are going

In Autocar magazine this week....

According to professor Ernst of Liege University it takes 435000 miles for an EV  using a 60 kWh battery before it is 'greener' than the average petrol car regarding it's Co2 footprint.

It looks like if it's not diesel cars killing black babies in Africa, it's the 4 door milk float.

That makes me feel less guilty about intending to keep my 3.2, 21 mpg, lovely Omega Opti until the government of the day agrees to fully fund a Tesla for me

I would say your chance of any govenrment being so benevolent is 'vanishingly slim',.......

Perhaps when hell decides to freeze over.

[Lizzie Zoom]

Very sad for Bridgend and comes hard on the heels of the Welsh government cancelling the M4 relief scheme at Newport, where the motorway becomes a car park twice a day during rush hour. 

I'm sure the newts on the Gwent levels are happy though. 

Yes, I heard that myself Sir Tigger.  It is a troublesome decision and with the Ford announcement it makes me wonder what else is in the pipeline.  Llanwern steel works has been under threat in the past, so with the problems of that industry................!!

I hope sincerely for South Wales and it's peoples that no other jobs are going to be lost on mass.  They suffered in the Valleys enough when the coal mines closed (my business duties covered that area during the miners strike and after)  so any more bad news would be terrible.  

[2boxerdogs]

The day we have to give up petrol cars will be the day I give up driving, no way on earth will I have an electric car if I'm still fit & able will revert to a pushbike , probably be pushing up daisies before the demise of petrol though.😀

[Sir Tigger KC]

The day we have to give up petrol cars will be the day I give up driving, no way on earth will I have an electric car if I'm still fit & able will revert to a pushbike , probably be pushing up daisies before the demise of petrol though.😀

One less on the roads then.  .                                                           

[Varche]

Had a look on an expat forum today and predictably the closure was slated as

“Yet another closure due to Brexit, will the Quitlings never learn.”

I read elsewhere that 9 out of every 10 Jaguar Land Rover vehicles being produced is a diesel. If that is true it is a bit of bad forward planning.

[Sir Tigger KC]

Yes I think that JLR have done that classic British thing of achieving success and then sitting back on their laurels while the world moves on around them. 

[dave the builder]

I was reading an article the other day saying that Ford car sales in the USA are piss poor and they are considering a future merger with GM  ( who's USA car sales are good ) to make them competitive with PSA etc and Jap cars

[Lizzie Zoom]

I was reading an article the other day saying that Ford car sales in the USA are piss poor and they are considering a future merger with GM  ( who's USA car sales are good ) to make them competitive with PSA etc and Jap cars

That is not surprising as when you go to the States now it is Japanese and German that you notice more than any others.  When I first went in 1990 American cars were everywhere, but not now.

[2boxerdogs]

I was reading an article the other day saying that Ford car sales in the USA are piss poor and they are considering a future merger with GM  ( who's USA car sales are good ) to make them competitive with PSA etc and Jap cars

That is not surprising as when you go to the States now it is Japanese and German that you notice more than any others.  When I first went in 1990 American cars were everywhere, but not now.

.   



Had several Japanese vehicles & two German vehicles all been ultra reliable & problem free probably got a lot to do with their popularity.

[Sir Tigger KC]

I was reading an article the other day saying that Ford car sales in the USA are piss poor and they are considering a future merger with GM  ( who's USA car sales are good ) to make them competitive with PSA etc and Jap cars

That is not surprising as when you go to the States now it is Japanese and German that you notice more than any others.  When I first went in 1990 American cars were everywhere, but not now.

.   



Had several Japanese vehicles & two German vehicles all been ultra reliable & problem free probably got a lot to do with their popularity.

Well when American cars do about 20 gpm and ride on leaf springs is it any wonder?   

[Viral_Jim]

In Autocar magazine this week....

According to professor Ernst of Liege University it takes 435000 miles for an EV  using a 60 kWh battery before it is 'greener' than the average petrol car regarding it's Co2 footprint.

It looks like if it's not diesel cars killing black babies in Africa, it's the 4 door milk float.

As is (almost) always the case, that article conveniently ignores the upstream CO2 produced to get petrol to the pumps. Their maths only works assuming that you use (a) the manufacturer's stated mpg and (b) that the petrol fairies take the oil out the ground, refine it and deliver it by magic. 

It also ignores the increasing proportion of green energy being produced by the European grid. And that there's more than just CO2 coming out of tail pipes, particularly the diesels.

[Marks DTM Calib]

Yes I think that JLR have done that classic British thing of achieving success and then sitting back on their laurels while the world moves on around them. 

What utter crap.

JLR have excellent diesels and petrols on offer plus PVEV, MHEV and electric, if the customer chooses to buy diesel then that's their choice (and probably a sensible one at the moment).

[Marks DTM Calib]

Had a look on an expat forum today and predictably the closure was slated as

“Yet another closure due to Brexit, will the Quitlings never learn.”

I read elsewhere that 9 out of every 10 Jaguar Land Rover vehicles being produced is a diesel. If that is true it is a bit of bad forward planning.

Its closing because it didn't get the new engine variant placed there AND because the JLR V8 petrol is being phased out, think what you like, no company will take a risk in an unstable economy where the investment could be badly damaged.......if there are unknowns and you have options you avoid them.

Is it 100% down to Brexit, clearly not, is it a factor, absolutely

[TheBoy]

Very sad for Bridgend and comes hard on the heels of the Welsh government cancelling the M4 relief scheme at Newport, where the motorway becomes a car park twice a day during rush hour. 

I'm sure the newts on the Gwent levels are happy though. 

Its what "we" voted for, remember.  Obviously not the only cause, but certainly in the mix.  Any global company is going to put the investment in where it will work out best for the company, and that's rarely going to be the lonely rock in the North Sea that doesn't want to play with the neighbours.

[TheBoy]

I read elsewhere that 9 out of every 10 Jaguar Land Rover vehicles being produced is a diesel. If that is true it is a bit of bad forward planning.

Like any company anywhere, JLR will build what people want.  And 9 out of 10 JLR customers think diesels are the best compromise.  And a modern diesel is as clean as a modern petrol, not that you could get that into the skull of your average, vocal do-gooder.

[TheBoy]

Opps, should have read the 2nd page before replying

[TheBoy]

think what you like, no company will take a risk in an unstable economy where the investment could be badly damaged.......if there are unknowns and you have options you avoid them.

Is it 100% down to Brexit, clearly not, is it a factor, absolutely

No, no, no, you can't say that here.  The EU is going to roll over and let us demand anything we want, and still pay for the Welsh M4 improvements. And give us trillions of pounds, because we're so important.

[Nick W]

think what you like, no company will take a risk in an unstable economy where the investment could be badly damaged.......if there are unknowns and you have options you avoid them.

Is it 100% down to Brexit, clearly not, is it a factor, absolutely

No, no, no, you can't say that here.  The EU is going to roll over and let us demand anything we want, and still pay for the Welsh M4 improvements. And give us trillions of pounds, because we're so important.

 

and businesses can afford to wait x years whilst any uncertainty is worked out.

[Kevin Wood]

I read elsewhere that 9 out of every 10 Jaguar Land Rover vehicles being produced is a diesel. If that is true it is a bit of bad forward planning.

Like any company anywhere, JLR will build what people want.  And 9 out of 10 JLR customers think diesels are the best compromise.  And a modern diesel is as clean as a modern petrol, not that you could get that into the skull of your average, vocal do-gooder.

Might be "technically" true when it's in a laboratory but you only have to smell / see the sh1te coming out of a 10+ year old diseasel (which are all new enough have DPFs, etc. etc.) to know that many of them are fit for the crusher at that age whereas petrol engines tend to fare much better. The emissions control systems on diesel engines are simply not durable enough and the rotten ones are not picked up adequately by the MOT testing regime currently.

[TheBoy]

I’ve followed all my cars enough to see which smoke, so at this point remain unconvinced a petrol is significantly cleaner than a modern euro6 soot chucker

However, I know which is more fun

[Lizzie Zoom]

Had a look on an expat forum today and predictably the closure was slated as

“Yet another closure due to Brexit, will the Quitlings never learn.”

I read elsewhere that 9 out of every 10 Jaguar Land Rover vehicles being produced is a diesel. If that is true it is a bit of bad forward planning.

Its closing because it didn't get the new engine variant placed there AND because the JLR V8 petrol is being phased out, think what you like, no company will take a risk in an unstable economy where the investment could be badly damaged.......if there are unknowns and you have options you avoid them.

Is it 100% down to Brexit, clearly not, is it a factor, absolutely

A financial correspondent on the BBC stated "investment in the UK motor business is 80% down" this year.

Honda going from Swindon and now this...!!

Whatever the actual cause, or a combination of reasons, that is very disturbing.

It has also been said that the whole world's motor industry has seen a massive decline in sales.

Not good for the UK that is for sure!!

[STEMO]

You can keep your old car, or buy a new one that's a clone of the one you've already got, or pay tens of thousands for an upmarket jag, beemer, merc, etc.
The top end sales, I believe, are holding up, but I wouldn't trade my astra for a newer car of similar ilk, they're just not different enough so not worth spending money on.

[Marks DTM Calib]

Had a look on an expat forum today and predictably the closure was slated as

“Yet another closure due to Brexit, will the Quitlings never learn.”

I read elsewhere that 9 out of every 10 Jaguar Land Rover vehicles being produced is a diesel. If that is true it is a bit of bad forward planning.

Its closing because it didn't get the new engine variant placed there AND because the JLR V8 petrol is being phased out, think what you like, no company will take a risk in an unstable economy where the investment could be badly damaged.......if there are unknowns and you have options you avoid them.

Is it 100% down to Brexit, clearly not, is it a factor, absolutely

A financial correspondent on the BBC stated "investment in the UK motor business is 80% down" this year.

Honda going from Swindon and now this...!!

Whatever the actual cause, or a combination of reasons, that is very disturbing.

It has also been said that the whole world's motor industry has seen a massive decline in sales.

Not good for the UK that is for sure!!

No surprise from Ford, they have not built any sort of vehicle in the UK for years and have plenty of engine build capability around the world.

Everyone conveniently forgets the other side where JLR are starting electric motor production at the recently built engine facility near Wolverhampton and are building a shiny new battery facility near Birmingham to.

The down side is Disco and Defender being built in Europe and not Solihull

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

I read elsewhere that 9 out of every 10 Jaguar Land Rover vehicles being produced is a diesel. If that is true it is a bit of bad forward planning.

Like any company anywhere, JLR will build what people want.  And 9 out of 10 JLR customers think diesels are the best compromise.  And a modern diesel is as clean as a modern petrol, not that you could get that into the skull of your average, vocal do-gooder.

Might be "technically" true when it's in a laboratory but you only have to smell / see the sh1te coming out of a 10+ year old diseasel (which are all new enough have DPFs, etc. etc.) to know that many of them are fit for the crusher at that age whereas petrol engines tend to fare much better. The emissions control systems on diesel engines are simply not durable enough and the rotten ones are not picked up adequately by the MOT testing regime currently.

I'm not 100% convinced that derv is as 'clean'  as some suggest.


https://youtu.be/DtZ0LlDtP7A

[Sir Tigger KC]

No surprise from Ford, they have not built any sort of vehicle in the UK for years and have plenty of engine build capability around the world.

Everyone conveniently forgets the other side where JLR are starting electric motor production at the recently built engine facility near Wolverhampton and are building a shiny new battery facility near Birmingham to.

The down side is Disco and Defender being built in Europe and not Solihull

This is good, but why weren't they doing it a decade ago?    Where was the XF or Disco 4 hybrid?

That is what I meant about JLR sitting back on their laurels, which you dismissed as utter crap.  They found a winning formula with their excellent big diesels and stuck with it....     As a luxury/expensive brand, they should have been a leader in this technology, instead they are following the pack.... 

The Toyota Prius has been around for 15-20 years now, and Lexus has been producing hybrid SUV's for 10 years or so?  It shouldn't have needed Mystic Meg to tell them that hybrid/EV were the future.

[STEMO]

I really don't see how JLR can be in trouble. The amount of their 4x4's on the road around here is incredible. They're not old ones, either.

[STEMO]

The approved used are a bargain 

https://www.sytner.co.uk/landrover/car-search/wakefield/

[dave the builder]

I really don't see how JLR can be in trouble. The amount of their 4x4's on the road around here is incredible. They're not old ones, either.

but how many are stolen ,on false plates, or hired 

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

The approved used are a bargain 

https://www.sytner.co.uk/landrover/car-search/wakefield/

£70000 for a slightly used posh van with windows and a 2 litre 4 pot lump.No thanks.

[2boxerdogs]

The approved used are a bargain 

https://www.sytner.co.uk/landrover/car-search/wakefield/

£70000 for a slightly used posh van with windows and a 2 litre 4 pot lump.No thanks.

.   



Too right Opti, what an absolute waste of money..

[TheBoy]

This is good, but why weren't they doing it a decade ago?    Where was the XF or Disco 4 hybrid?

Two things come to mine...

As a relatively small motor manufacturer, primary development has to go where the sales are going to be for the next few years.  And until very very recently, that was traditional cars and SUVs powered by an engine.


Secondly, unlike the likes of Tesla, who do their development on launched cars they have already sold to the public, it seems like JLR have been slowly plugging away at it for a few years.  A close family member was working on battery health/safety several years ago.

[TheBoy]

The approved used are a bargain 

https://www.sytner.co.uk/landrover/car-search/wakefield/

£70000 for a slightly used posh van with windows and a 2 litre 4 pot lump.No thanks.

.   



Too right Opti, what an absolute waste of money..

Market forces will dictate 2nd hand prices, so clearly there are enough people who would not consider it a waste of money .  For somebody, its the ideal car.

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

The approved used are a bargain 

https://www.sytner.co.uk/landrover/car-search/wakefield/

£70000 for a slightly used posh van with windows and a 2 litre 4 pot lump.No thanks.

.   



Too right Opti, what an absolute waste of money..

Market forces will dictate 2nd hand prices, so clearly there are enough people who would not consider it a waste of money . For somebody, its the ideal car.

That will be Mr Wealthy and his wife Mrs Wealthy.

[STEMO]

The approved used are a bargain 

https://www.sytner.co.uk/landrover/car-search/wakefield/

£70000 for a slightly used posh van with windows and a 2 litre 4 pot lump.No thanks.

.   



Too right Opti, what an absolute waste of money..

Market forces will dictate 2nd hand prices, so clearly there are enough people who would not consider it a waste of money . For somebody, its the ideal car.

That will be Mr Wealthy and his wife Mrs Opti

Fixed that for you.

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

President of Ford Europe, Stuart Rowley, said yesterday that the decision is nothing to do with Brexit. 

[Lizzie Zoom]

The approved used are a bargain 

https://www.sytner.co.uk/landrover/car-search/wakefield/

£70000 for a slightly used posh van with windows and a 2 litre 4 pot lump.No thanks.

.   



Too right Opti, what an absolute waste of money..

Market forces will dictate 2nd hand prices, so clearly there are enough people who would not consider it a waste of money .  For somebody, its the ideal car.

Indeed, and I for one would like one

However, I was behind a Tesla Model X the other week and I fancied one of them, until I saw the list price

As I was driving along a thought hit me - not too unusual - and it was that I know NOTING about electric engines in cars.

As a female petrol head with mechanical training I know some of the difference between 1 litre and 5 litre engines.  I know how the bhp as dramatically improved in relation to cc capacity over the decades;  I mean, a 1.4 litre car in 2019 can push out a level of bhp that a 5 litre engine in 1920 could only dream of.  I also understand domestic electrical installations, and the relationship to volts, watts and the resultant amperage with all that entails.

BUT, an electric engine..........!!!  What is the mechanical / electrical differences in output and power supply between a small electric car and that Tesla Model X?  I have not a clue and would not be able to go into a showroom and state what I actually want in an electric car as I can with buying, say a Ford Fiesta or a Red Label engined Bentley.  What are the differences?  What should consumers be looking for?  Yes, we all know range is important, but does doing a steady 50 mph in a Corsa-e or 80 mph in a Tesla make a difference with the range as it does with our petrol engine mpg's?

Apart from price, is it possible, or is it just me, that the general public are confused about what they are going to buy if deciding to go electric and that, especially with us older folk, is going to inhibit sales?

It certainly strikes me that Ford, and the rest of the traditional car industry are not doing enough to clarify exactly what an electric car is and can do, with the various options available.  Until they rectify this, is it possible or even a certainty, that many people will hold off of buying a new car, and that is what we are witnessing now, with the resultant effect that more Bridgend type engine plants will have to close due to a severe lack of demand as now being reported across the Globe?

Just my thoughts!

[TheBoy]

President of Ford Europe, Stuart Rowley, said yesterday that the decision is nothing to do with Brexit. 

He would . Mrs May said her deal was the best compromise deal available, but some chose to not believe that.

Honda have tried to avoid saying Brexit is the reason for closing Swindon, and so on.  Thats how global companies (have to) work.

But the clear facts are hard to deny.

[TheBoy]

LZ - the lack of take up for electric cars still remains the range issue. And the 16hr charge time (fast charging mullers the batteries, whatever the manufacturer claims). And the fact if you discharge by over 50% reasonably regularly you muller the battery (whatever the manufacturer claims).

But all modern tizzy cars are in the category of proper quick off the line.

[Lizzie Zoom]

LZ - the lack of take up for electric cars still remains the range issue. And the 16hr charge time (fast charging mullers the batteries, whatever the manufacturer claims). And the fact if you discharge by over 50% reasonably regularly you muller the battery (whatever the manufacturer claims).

But all modern tizzy cars are in the category of proper quick off the line.

Thanks TB, but the issue of the equivalent of mpg and use of the accelerator / the speed you do in electric cars is just one of the questions  I cannot answer in my mind

[TheBoy]

LZ - the lack of take up for electric cars still remains the range issue. And the 16hr charge time (fast charging mullers the batteries, whatever the manufacturer claims). And the fact if you discharge by over 50% reasonably regularly you muller the battery (whatever the manufacturer claims).

But all modern tizzy cars are in the category of proper quick off the line.

Thanks TB, but the issue of the equivalent of mpg and use of the accelerator / the speed you do in electric cars is just one of the questions  I cannot answer in my mind

A current Tesla with the smallest battery available to have Lunatic Mode available (can't remember if thats 90 or 100kWh) is claimed 250+ miles to a charge, reality is half that in winter, even driven not too quickly. So, to avoid shagging the batts, around 60 miles range in winter, with a 16hr charge to avoid shagging the batteries.

Hence not for me, as although the 60m range would just about see me through, I leave before 7am, and get back around 6pm normally.  Thus is would only get a 12.5 hr charge.  And thats before you consider I wouldn't ever get near that level of range from it, in the same way I can't get the the 45mpg from the Pussy (nearer 30mg), or any other car I've ever owned.


Think of it like a proper big forced induction car, mpg wise.  What you read in the specs is what tunny may achieve on a good day.  Anyone who enjoys driving (properly) needs to budget around half to 2/3rds of that as a best case scenario.  Obviously in the case of electric, using heaters/chillers has a major impact.

[Sir Tigger KC]

This is good, but why weren't they doing it a decade ago?    Where was the XF or Disco 4 hybrid?

Two things come to mine...

As a relatively small motor manufacturer, primary development has to go where the sales are going to be for the next few years.  And until very very recently, that was traditional cars and SUVs powered by an engine.

I don't buy that TB, as JLR were part of FMC one of the biggest motor manufacturers and are now part of TATA a global industrial giant, but I agree that they are a victim of their own short termism.

Secondly, unlike the likes of Tesla, who do their development on launched cars they have already sold to the public, it seems like JLR have been slowly plugging away at it for a few years.  A close family member was working on battery health/safety several years ago.

Too slowly it seems.... 

[Lizzie Zoom]

LZ - the lack of take up for electric cars still remains the range issue. And the 16hr charge time (fast charging mullers the batteries, whatever the manufacturer claims). And the fact if you discharge by over 50% reasonably regularly you muller the battery (whatever the manufacturer claims).

But all modern tizzy cars are in the category of proper quick off the line.

Thanks TB, but the issue of the equivalent of mpg and use of the accelerator / the speed you do in electric cars is just one of the questions  I cannot answer in my mind

A current Tesla with the smallest battery available to have Lunatic Mode available (can't remember if thats 90 or 100kWh) is claimed 250+ miles to a charge, reality is half that in winter, even driven not too quickly. So, to avoid shagging the batts, around 60 miles range in winter, with a 16hr charge to avoid shagging the batteries.

Hence not for me, as although the 60m range would just about see me through, I leave before 7am, and get back around 6pm normally.  Thus is would only get a 12.5 hr charge.  And thats before you consider I wouldn't ever get near that level of range from it, in the same way I can't get the the 45mpg from the Pussy (nearer 30mg), or any other car I've ever owned.


Think of it like a proper big forced induction car, mpg wise.  What you read in the specs is what tunny may achieve on a good day.  Anyone who enjoys driving (properly) needs to budget around half to 2/3rds of that as a best case scenario.  Obviously in the case of electric, using heaters/chillers has a major impact.

Thanks TB. I think I understand that

In short it seems my choice to keep the 3.2 going is the right one

[Viral_Jim]

A current Tesla with the smallest battery available to have Lunatic Mode available (can't remember if thats 90 or 100kWh) is claimed 250+ miles to a charge, reality is half that in winter, even driven not too quickly. So, to avoid shagging the batts, around 60 miles range in winter, with a 16hr charge to avoid shagging the batteries.

Hence not for me, as although the 60m range would just about see me through, I leave before 7am, and get back around 6pm normally.  Thus is would only get a 12.5 hr charge.  And thats before you consider I wouldn't ever get near that level of range from it, in the same way I can't get the the 45mpg from the Pussy (nearer 30mg), or any other car I've ever owned.


Think of it like a proper big forced induction car, mpg wise.  What you read in the specs is what tunny may achieve on a good day.  Anyone who enjoys driving (properly) needs to budget around half to 2/3rds of that as a best case scenario.  Obviously in the case of electric, using heaters/chillers has a major impact.

It will be interesting to see how it pans out for me in the milk float, I'm on course to do just over my 75k lease in the 3 years I have it. So far, driving normally (at or about the speed limit, heated seats and cabin heaters set normally) I'm getting about 95% of the WLTP range. Doubtless this will drop over the winter.

Charging wise, around 60% goes in using the 7kw wall boxes (circa 4hrs to charge) and the remainder is on rapid chargers - 20-30min charges to top the car up to about 80-90%.

By your reckoning, the battery will probably be shot by the time I hand it back?

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

A current Tesla with the smallest battery available to have Lunatic Mode available (can't remember if thats 90 or 100kWh) is claimed 250+ miles to a charge, reality is half that in winter, even driven not too quickly. So, to avoid shagging the batts, around 60 miles range in winter, with a 16hr charge to avoid shagging the batteries.

Hence not for me, as although the 60m range would just about see me through, I leave before 7am, and get back around 6pm normally.  Thus is would only get a 12.5 hr charge.  And thats before you consider I wouldn't ever get near that level of range from it, in the same way I can't get the the 45mpg from the Pussy (nearer 30mg), or any other car I've ever owned.


Think of it like a proper big forced induction car, mpg wise.  What you read in the specs is what tunny may achieve on a good day.  Anyone who enjoys driving (properly) needs to budget around half to 2/3rds of that as a best case scenario.  Obviously in the case of electric, using heaters/chillers has a major impact.

It will be interesting to see how it pans out for me in the milk float, I'm on course to do just over my 75k lease in the 3 years I have it. So far, driving normally (at or about the speed limit, heated seats and cabin heaters set normally) I'm getting about 95% of the WLTP range. Doubtless this will drop over the winter.

Charging wise, around 60% goes in using the 7kw wall boxes (circa 4hrs to charge) and the remainder is on rapid chargers - 20-30min charges to top the car up to about 80-90%.

By your reckoning, the battery will probably be shot by the time I hand it back?

Presumably as more 'leccy' cars hit the streets you'll have to queue to use these.

Plenty of punch-ups.

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

A current Tesla with the smallest battery available to have Lunatic Mode available (can't remember if thats 90 or 100kWh) is claimed 250+ miles to a charge, reality is half that in winter, even driven not too quickly. So, to avoid shagging the batts, around 60 miles range in winter, with a 16hr charge to avoid shagging the batteries.

Hence not for me, as although the 60m range would just about see me through, I leave before 7am, and get back around 6pm normally.  Thus is would only get a 12.5 hr charge.  And thats before you consider I wouldn't ever get near that level of range from it, in the same way I can't get the the 45mpg from the Pussy (nearer 30mg), or any other car I've ever owned.


Think of it like a proper big forced induction car, mpg wise.  What you read in the specs is what tunny may achieve on a good day.  Anyone who enjoys driving (properly) needs to budget around half to 2/3rds of that as a best case scenario.  Obviously in the case of electric, using heaters/chillers has a major impact.

It will be interesting to see how it pans out for me in the milk float, I'm on course to do just over my 75k lease in the 3 years I have it. So far, driving normally (at or about the speed limit, heated seats and cabin heaters set normally) I'm getting about 95% of the WLTP range. Doubtless this will drop over the winter.

Charging wise, around 60% goes in using the 7kw wall boxes (circa 4hrs to charge) and the remainder is on rapid chargers - 20-30min charges to top the car up to about 80-90%.

By your reckoning, the battery will probably be shot by the time I hand it back?

Jimmy....is the battery a single item or does it consist of a number of 'modules' which can be replaced individually. An Infiniti I looked at had six modules to the battery, each costing around £3500, before fitting.

[Kevin Wood]

A current Tesla with the smallest battery available to have Lunatic Mode available (can't remember if thats 90 or 100kWh) is claimed 250+ miles to a charge, reality is half that in winter, even driven not too quickly. So, to avoid shagging the batts, around 60 miles range in winter, with a 16hr charge to avoid shagging the batteries.

Hence not for me, as although the 60m range would just about see me through, I leave before 7am, and get back around 6pm normally.  Thus is would only get a 12.5 hr charge.  And thats before you consider I wouldn't ever get near that level of range from it, in the same way I can't get the the 45mpg from the Pussy (nearer 30mg), or any other car I've ever owned.


Think of it like a proper big forced induction car, mpg wise.  What you read in the specs is what tunny may achieve on a good day.  Anyone who enjoys driving (properly) needs to budget around half to 2/3rds of that as a best case scenario.  Obviously in the case of electric, using heaters/chillers has a major impact.

It will be interesting to see how it pans out for me in the milk float, I'm on course to do just over my 75k lease in the 3 years I have it. So far, driving normally (at or about the speed limit, heated seats and cabin heaters set normally) I'm getting about 95% of the WLTP range. Doubtless this will drop over the winter.

Charging wise, around 60% goes in using the 7kw wall boxes (circa 4hrs to charge) and the remainder is on rapid chargers - 20-30min charges to top the car up to about 80-90%.

By your reckoning, the battery will probably be shot by the time I hand it back?

Presumably as more 'leccy' cars hit the streets you'll have to queue to use these.

Plenty of punch-ups.

Yep. Can't wait until "charger rage" becomes a thing.

[Nick W]

Charger rage will get worse when they're installed outside small supermarkets with names like Elecco, Elexaco, Shellec etc etc

[dave the builder]

Charger rage will get worse when they're installed outside small supermarkets with names like Elecco, Elexaco, Shellec etc etc

You forgot Brexitco Nick ,for people who want proper British electric, none of that foreign EU rubbish   

[Viral_Jim]

Jimmy....is the battery a single item or does it consist of a number of 'modules' which can be replaced individually. An Infiniti I looked at had six modules to the battery, each costing around £3500, before fitting.

Yes, they're modular, 27 Panasonic ones I think, suggests about 1.2kwh each in capacity. I know the Lexus ones are mega money (much like all lexus spares). Given that there's a company sprung up that will fit you a full 40kwh battery pack for about £8k, it would suggest each module is maybe £150 a throw (assuming the company wants £2k to fit the pack).

Ultimately it all comes down to how long they last. And, while views on this forum are that the batteries will be junk in <100k, the Tesla forum data seems to indicate that the model s loses 5% by 50k miles. Another 5% upto 150k and then the degredation slows down.

On that basis I'm expecting to have about 90% of the WLTP range left on mine by the time I give it back.

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

Jimmy....is the battery a single item or does it consist of a number of 'modules' which can be replaced individually. An Infiniti I looked at had six modules to the battery, each costing around £3500, before fitting.

Yes, they're modular, 27 Panasonic ones I think, suggests about 1.2kwh each in capacity. I know the Lexus ones are mega money (much like all lexus spares). Given that there's a company sprung up that will fit you a full 40kwh battery pack for about £8k, it would suggest each module is maybe £150 a throw (assuming the company wants £2k to fit the pack).

Ultimately it all comes down to how long they last. And, while views on this forum are that the batteries will be junk in <100k, the Tesla forum data seems to indicate that the model s loses 5% by 50k miles. Another 5% upto 150k and then the degredation slows down.

On that basis I'm expecting to have about 90% of the WLTP range left on mine by the time I give it back.

Perhaps the price of a new battery will go the way of pocket calculators

I think £30 for a Sinclair Cambridge around 1972.........down to mere buttons now.

Or possibly the elements needed will become harder and more expensive to source as they are depleted.

Who knows?

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

A current Tesla with the smallest battery available to have Lunatic Mode available (can't remember if thats 90 or 100kWh) is claimed 250+ miles to a charge, reality is half that in winter, even driven not too quickly. So, to avoid shagging the batts, around 60 miles range in winter, with a 16hr charge to avoid shagging the batteries.

Hence not for me, as although the 60m range would just about see me through, I leave before 7am, and get back around 6pm normally.  Thus is would only get a 12.5 hr charge.  And thats before you consider I wouldn't ever get near that level of range from it, in the same way I can't get the the 45mpg from the Pussy (nearer 30mg), or any other car I've ever owned.


Think of it like a proper big forced induction car, mpg wise.  What you read in the specs is what tunny may achieve on a good day.  Anyone who enjoys driving (properly) needs to budget around half to 2/3rds of that as a best case scenario.  Obviously in the case of electric, using heaters/chillers has a major impact.

It will be interesting to see how it pans out for me in the milk float, I'm on course to do just over my 75k lease in the 3 years I have it. So far, driving normally (at or about the speed limit, heated seats and cabin heaters set normally) I'm getting about 95% of the WLTP range. Doubtless this will drop over the winter.

Charging wise, around 60% goes in using the 7kw wall boxes (circa 4hrs to charge) and the remainder is on rapid chargers - 20-30min charges to top the car up to about 80-90%.

By your reckoning, the battery will probably be shot by the time I hand it back?

Presumably as more 'leccy' cars hit the streets you'll have to queue to use these.

Plenty of punch-ups.

Yep. Can't wait until "charger rage" becomes a thing.

 My guess is the increase in electric cars will far outstrip the increase in charging facilities. Best carry a gun.

[dave the builder]

A current Tesla with the smallest battery available to have Lunatic Mode available (can't remember if thats 90 or 100kWh) is claimed 250+ miles to a charge, reality is half that in winter, even driven not too quickly. So, to avoid shagging the batts, around 60 miles range in winter, with a 16hr charge to avoid shagging the batteries.

Hence not for me, as although the 60m range would just about see me through, I leave before 7am, and get back around 6pm normally.  Thus is would only get a 12.5 hr charge.  And thats before you consider I wouldn't ever get near that level of range from it, in the same way I can't get the the 45mpg from the Pussy (nearer 30mg), or any other car I've ever owned.


Think of it like a proper big forced induction car, mpg wise.  What you read in the specs is what tunny may achieve on a good day.  Anyone who enjoys driving (properly) needs to budget around half to 2/3rds of that as a best case scenario.  Obviously in the case of electric, using heaters/chillers has a major impact.

It will be interesting to see how it pans out for me in the milk float, I'm on course to do just over my 75k lease in the 3 years I have it. So far, driving normally (at or about the speed limit, heated seats and cabin heaters set normally) I'm getting about 95% of the WLTP range. Doubtless this will drop over the winter.

Charging wise, around 60% goes in using the 7kw wall boxes (circa 4hrs to charge) and the remainder is on rapid chargers - 20-30min charges to top the car up to about 80-90%.

By your reckoning, the battery will probably be shot by the time I hand it back?

Presumably as more 'leccy' cars hit the streets you'll have to queue to use these.

Plenty of punch-ups.

Yep. Can't wait until "charger rage" becomes a thing.

 My guess is the increase in electric cars will far outstrip the increase in charging facilities. Best carry a gun.

why  queue up with the local peasants to charge your environmentally friendly EV when you can just buy a decent 20 KVA diesel generator to charge it up 

[Kevin Wood]

My guess is the increase in electric cars will far outstrip the increase in charging facilities. Best carry a gun.

It will have to due to the electrical supply capacity to the sites alone. The cars will be usable up to range/2 from home, if you're lucky enough to have a house where you can connect the car.

Then. when everyone in your street has one, the local substation will go kaboom.

[TheBoy]

I don't buy that TB, as JLR were part of FMC one of the biggest motor manufacturers and are now part of TATA a global industrial giant, but I agree that they are a victim of their own short termism.

Too slowly it seems.... 

Not sure about Jaguar (will ask), but Landrover were never part of FMC, but part of PAG, which encompassed Ford.

As we know from the news over the last few years, the Tata conglomorate doesn't cross subsidise or help other companies in the same group, hence British Steel was left to a management buyout.  And JLR were not getting any discounts if they used British Steel.


And JLR are selling tizzy cars, and currently faster than they can make them .  But diesel is still king.

[TheBoy]

By your reckoning, the battery will probably be shot by the time I hand it back?

Any battery manufacturer will quote what I said above.  And internally, every car manufacturer will also say the same.  But they don't publish externally for obvious reasons, and its against the BBC's principles to "investigate" that

[Sir Tigger KC]

I don't buy that TB, as JLR were part of FMC one of the biggest motor manufacturers and are now part of TATA a global industrial giant, but I agree that they are a victim of their own short termism.

Too slowly it seems.... 

Not sure about Jaguar (will ask), but Landrover were never part of FMC, but part of PAG, which encompassed Ford.

The Premier Automotive Group (PAG) was a Ford holding coming that ran it's premium brands, Aston Martin, Jaguar, Land Rover, Volvo and Lincoln. 

sed Ford.Not sure about Ja

As we know from the news over the last few years, the Tata conglomorate doesn't cross subsidise or help other companies in the same group, hence British Steel was left to a management buyout.  And JLR were not getting any discounts if they used British Steel.

To the man on the street (ie Me!) this dosn't make good business sense.  Maybe it's against the rules... EU rules? 

And JLR are selling tizzy cars, and currently faster than they can make them .  But diesel is still king.

Glad to hear it and I see they do a hybrid Range Rover now, but I still maintain that they could and should have started doing this a decade ago.  Maybe it's a hangover from the Ford era, as I don't think they've been quick to get into hybrids or EV's either. 

[TheBoy]

The Premier Automotive Group (PAG) was a Ford holding coming that ran it's premium brands, Aston Martin, Jaguar, Land Rover, Volvo and Lincoln. 



To the man on the street (ie Me!) this dosn't make good business sense.  Maybe it's against the rules... EU rules? 



Glad to hear it and I see they do a hybrid Range Rover now, but I still maintain that they could and should have started doing this a decade ago.  Maybe it's a hangover from the Ford era, as I don't think they've been quick to get into hybrids or EV's either. 

Ford Europe were part of said umbrella company a few years back, when Mrs TB worked for them .  And it wasn't just covering luxury brands back then, as PAG didn't consider Ford or Volvo as luxury brands.


An Indian company complying with EU laws . Yeah, right . Not everything is the fault of the EU.  Nope, its like many similar large multis, each company is run as a completely separate entity at that level, though may share some backend things, like personnel and IT etc.  TCS is probably Tata's biggest business.


As said, I know JLR have been working on tizzy stuff for several years.  But, TBH, up until very, very recently, it was never going to sell any, because its not what their customers wanted - anyone buying a 5l supercharged V8 Range Rover is unlikely to be a tree hugger.  Its only our (UK) government trying to bugger up things in the last couple of years that has made city dwellers consider electric, and electric isn't yet anywhere near viable for rural people.

Additionally, large premium cars are less of an ideal match for electric, so it would have been daft to try to launch anything.  The I-Pace was launched not long back, based on the smallest SUV platform JLR have.  And it sells well, as its ideal for posh mummy to drop little Johnny at school 2 miles away.

The next variant on my XJ is rumoured to be electric only at launch.  But you can bet a V6 diesel and a V6 supercharged petrol will follow very very quickly, and outsell the tizzy version.

[Viral_Jim]

By your reckoning, the battery will probably be shot by the time I hand it back?

Any battery manufacturer will quote what I said above.  And internally, every car manufacturer will also say the same.  But they don't publish externally for obvious reasons, and its against the BBC's principles to "investigate" that

If that is the case, why does it not seem to be bourse out by actual vehicles on the road? The largest collection of data I've heard about is the one linked below, which covers c350 European Tesla's. This trend seems to show that you lose about 10% over the first 160k miles. Surely they can't have just picked 350vehicles who only trickle charge?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/electrek.co/2018/04/14/tesla-battery-degradation-data/amp/

[TheBoy]

By your reckoning, the battery will probably be shot by the time I hand it back?

Any battery manufacturer will quote what I said above.  And internally, every car manufacturer will also say the same.  But they don't publish externally for obvious reasons, and its against the BBC's principles to "investigate" that

If that is the case, why does it not seem to be bourse out by actual vehicles on the road? The largest collection of data I've heard about is the one linked below, which covers c350 European Tesla's. This trend seems to show that you lose about 10% over the first 160k miles. Surely they can't have just picked 350vehicles who only trickle charge?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/electrek.co/2018/04/14/tesla-battery-degradation-data/amp/

Knowing what I know, from people properly and directly involved in EV car production from multiple companies, I would suggest Nissan's figures are much nearer, and Tesla's software lie like the rest of Tesla

Tesla have nothing unique in the way of technology, and that thermal 'dangle berries' is the same everyone uses - it has to be, as if you let that type of battery get modestly warm during charge or disacharge (by charging or discharging too quickly) it's life takes an immediate hit. Let it get hot during charge or discharge and you have an immediate fire risk.  Over discharge that type of battery tech, it has an immediate hit.  Even kind discharge and recharge does wear them out.  So if Tesla's software suggests otherwise, I would say the software is dishonest flawed.


The battery tech in a modern smartphone is not dissimilar, and has the kindest use possible, complete with all the thermal management going on (ok, maybe not the Galaxy Note from a couple of years back ), yet you'll do well after 3yrs to have 80% capacity left .  The batteries in many of my flying models are not dissimilar, but the quads in particular take high discharge rates. Missize the battery, and it can explode in flight, and they are always charged in a fireproof bag to contain them if/when they pop - out in the field, they tend to get charged at high rates.

[Sir Tigger KC]

Ford Europe were part of said umbrella company a few years back, when Mrs TB worked for them .  And it wasn't just covering luxury brands back then, as PAG didn't consider Ford or Volvo as luxury brands.

Well I can't can't find any mention of Ford Europe coming under PAG.   

They bought Volvo to compete with BMW, so they obviously did try to pitch it as a premium brand and as a Volvo owner I can confirm that it is premium...ish, sort of.... 

The whole PAG thing didn't work out very well though..... 

An Indian company complying with EU laws . Yeah, right . Not everything is the fault of the EU.  Nope, its like many similar large multis, each company is run as a completely separate entity at that level, though may share some backend things, like personnel and IT etc.  TCS is probably Tata's biggest business.

Er Indian or not, the parts of their business that operate in the EU have to comply with EU laws, rules and regs. 

[STEMO]

Ford Europe were part of said umbrella company a few years back, when Mrs TB worked for them .  And it wasn't just covering luxury brands back then, as PAG didn't consider Ford or Volvo as luxury brands.

Well I can't can't find any mention of Ford Europe coming under PAG.   

They bought Volvo to compete with BMW, so they obviously did try to pitch it as a premium brand and as a Volvo owner I can confirm that it is premium...ish, sort of.... 

The whole PAG thing didn't work out very well though..... 

An Indian company complying with EU laws . Yeah, right . Not everything is the fault of the EU.  Nope, its like many similar large multis, each company is run as a completely separate entity at that level, though may share some backend things, like personnel and IT etc.  TCS is probably Tata's biggest business.

Er Indian or not, the parts of their business that operate in the EU have to comply with EU laws, rules and regs. 

You're getting very argumentative and challenging lately, Sir Tig. Good, I like it. 

[Sir Tigger KC]

You're getting very argumentative and challenging lately, Sir Tig. Good, I like it. 

Well.....     you know.......    when someone is talking pish. 

And it all started with me saying that I thought that JLR had sat back on their laurels and I got jumped on!   

[TheBoy]

Well I can't can't find any mention of Ford Europe coming under PAG.   

They bought Volvo to compete with BMW, so they obviously did try to pitch it as a premium brand and as a Volvo owner I can confirm that it is premium...ish, sort of.... 

The whole PAG thing didn't work out very well though..... 

Ignore the marketing BS, the real reason was an umbrella for all the brands, all put into the same group for cost savings etc.  A lot of this is backend stuff, but an awful lot is in development savings by technology sharing. However, Volvo (like most Scandanavian companies) didn't do tech sharing, and kept going their own way - much like Saab/GM did - and PAG worked better for some parts of the group than others.

Er Indian or not, the parts of their business that operate in the EU have to comply with EU laws, rules and regs. 

Tata don't, as they have no companies registered in the EU.  They are all independent companies.  So, JLR have to comply. British Steel had to comply.  Tata don't - although any Tata employees based in any country are protected (or not ) by the local laws of that country.

Having worked for a foreign conglomerate in tough times, I know exactly how they can avoid a lot of the laws, in a not dissimilar way that Amazon can massively reduce its tax burden legally.