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[terry paget]

2000 Omega 2.5 petrol manual estate
Today my best Omega failed its MOT test on several items, may be beyond economic repair.
It failed on the following items:

emissions lambda reading, never below 1.043. Tester suggested this could be explained by a leak in the right hand central pipe where the pipe enters the silencer box. I had tried sealing with Gun Gum, but clearly failed.

rear offside brake pipe rusty

Suspension component munting prescribed area excessively corroded significantly reducing structural strangth Offside Rear (inner wheel arch)
                                           ditto                                                                                                  Nearside Rear

Looks like it needs a new cat back exhaust system, a new brake pipe, and some welding work on the cat to main section as the cat section flanges are strangely thin.

Please advise.

[Andy H]

I can sell you a 3.2 estate with an MOT until November 2003 Red MV6 3.2 Estate - for sale.

I was asking £700 but it hasn't sold so I am open to offers...

[BazaJT]

A brake pipe[plus ends] is pretty much pennies.Cat back exhaust less than £100[if my saloon one is anything to go by]so it would be the welding that would be the killer for me on cost grounds,but if you can weld then it's basically a no cost option.Just leaves the questions;will a new exhaust cure the emissions problem?and how much do you like/how handy is the car?

[Doctor Gollum]

2000 Omega 2.5 petrol manual estate
Today my best Omega failed its MOT test on several items, may be beyond economic repair.
It failed on the following items:

emissions lambda reading, never below 1.043. Tester suggested this could be explained by a leak in the right hand central pipe where the pipe enters the silencer box. I had tried sealing with Gun Gum, but clearly failed.

rear offside brake pipe rusty

Suspension component munting prescribed area excessively corroded significantly reducing structural strangth Offside Rear (inner wheel arch)
                                           ditto                                                                                                  Nearside Rear

Looks like it needs a new cat back exhaust system, a new brake pipe, and some welding work on the cat to main section as the cat section flanges are strangely thin.

Please advise.

Told you...

The exhaust is the least of your worries, although at £95 at least it's an easy fix. The only welding the car needs is from the rear jacking points to the middle of the rear wheel arches. On both sides.

[terry paget]

A brake pipe[plus ends] is pretty much pennies.Cat back exhaust less than £100[if my saloon one is anything to go by]so it would be the welding that would be the killer for me on cost grounds,but if you can weld then it's basically a no cost option.Just leaves the questions;will a new exhaust cure the emissions problem?and how much do you like/how handy is the car?

Complete cat back exhaust £93 delivered, see recent thread. I have welding gear and a friendly welder, I will ask him if he can do the wheel arch and the flange. Whether that will cure the lambda is an open question. Thanks for the advice on the brake pipe.
The car belongs to my son, and his 4 year old son Tom thinks it is wonderful.

[terry paget]

2000 Omega 2.5 petrol manual estate
Today my best Omega failed its MOT test on several items, may be beyond economic repair.
It failed on the following items:

emissions lambda reading, never below 1.043. Tester suggested this could be explained by a leak in the right hand central pipe where the pipe enters the silencer box. I had tried sealing with Gun Gum, but clearly failed.

rear offside brake pipe rusty

Suspension component munting prescribed area excessively corroded significantly reducing structural strangth Offside Rear (inner wheel arch)
                                           ditto                                                                                                  Nearside Rear

Looks like it needs a new cat back exhaust system, a new brake pipe, and some welding work on the cat to main section as the cat section flanges are strangely thin.

Please advise.

Told you...

The exhaust is the least of your worries, although at £95 at least it's an easy fix. The only welding the car needs is from the rear jacking points to the middle of the rear wheel arches. On both sides.

Fair comment Doc, and thanks for your advice. Now we know where we stand, only spent £35 for the MOT so far. 

[Enceladus]

This concerns a pre-facelift 2.5 V6, doesn't it?

I'm struggling a bit to understand how a hole in one of the centre boxes can affect the lambda reading, as the centre sections are downstream of the cats and the lambda sensors? How would a new exhaust fix that?

If you can't properly weld it yourself then you need to find somebody who knows what they're doing. Used to be that any good independent garage knew how to weld a Carlton. Not so sure where I would go to for an Omega nowadays. Getting that properly and economically fixed and future deterioration prevented is likely the biggest issue you have.

I grow increasingly alarmed about reports on this forum of MOT failures on Omega brake pipes. I've done plenty of mile in older(ish) Carltons and Senators and never had to replace a brake pipe. That said easily repairable.

[terry paget]

I can sell you a 3.2 estate with an MOT until November 2003 Red MV6 3.2 Estate - for sale.

I was asking £700 but it hasn't sold so I am open to offers...

I suppose it's an auto, being a 3.2, and all we know here are manuals.

[Doctor Gollum]

I can sell you a 3.2 estate with an MOT until November 2003 Red MV6 3.2 Estate - for sale.

I was asking £700 but it hasn't sold so I am open to offers...

I suppose it's an auto, being a 3.2, and all we know here are manuals.

It won't be any worse than a £500 Astra

[terry paget]

This concerns a pre-facelift 2.5 V6, doesn't it?

I'm struggling a bit to understand how a hole in one of the centre boxes can affect the lambda reading, as the centre sections are downstream of the cats and the lambda sensors? How would a new exhaust fix that?

If you can't properly weld it yourself then you need to find somebody who knows what they're doing. Used to be that any good independent garage knew how to weld a Carlton. Not so sure where I would go to for an Omega nowadays. Getting that properly and economically fixed and future deterioration prevented is likely the biggest issue you have.

I grow increasingly alarmed about reports on this forum of MOT failures on Omega brake pipes. I've done plenty of mile in older(ish) Carltons and Senators and never had to replace a brake pipe. That said easily repairable.

I have 2 2.5 manual estates, this is the facelift.

In the UK, while the lambda sensor is in the cat section after the cat, the exhaust gases are analysed at the tailpipe, so air leaking in at the central silencer will affect the measured lambda reading.

[Nick W]

A leaking silencer won't be the cause of your emissions fault, although it is a failure by itself. New exhaust is £100 and less than an hours work. Sorting the high lambda number will require some proper diagnosis, but probably won't be too bad.


New cats(I would never buy used ones) aren't particularly expensive, but the costs are adding up.



Brake pipe is a trivial repair, and is common for a twenty year old car. You can't tell how bad a rusty looking steel brake pipe is, so they're listed as failures. Which is what a safety inspection is for. I've replaced several like this, and every one was justified. Smothering them in grease so they can't be examined is a bodge that I think should be a failure all by itself.


The welding is your real problem. It's why I got rid of my car last summer; a critical look at both sills, NS sill end to subframe mount/floor/seatbelt mount, NS wheel arch and quarter panel, front and rear chassis rails meant it wasn't worth fitting the new sills I had in stock. I had already repaired the OS sill end/floor and wheel arch. My car was repairable, it just wasn't worth the time even though it was mecanically strong(recent suspension overhauls, good engine, refreshed interior, everything working correctly). I strongly suspect, because I haven't looked at it, that yours is the same. Most of these cars are at this point in their life where even skilled DIY repairers(like me) won't repair them. Which is why they're not 'classics' - whatever that is - yet. There's still too many of them about in daily use. Give them another 10 years, and the remaining few dozen will be like a Cresta is now. You'll see one at a show and reminisce before moving on to look at something interesting.

[dave the builder]

This concerns a pre-facelift 2.5 V6, doesn't it?

I'm struggling a bit to understand how a hole in one of the centre boxes can affect the lambda reading, as the centre sections are downstream of the cats and the lambda sensors? How would a new exhaust fix that?

any hole in the exhaust will suck air in (venturi ) , the MOT emission machine has it's own lambda sensor (does not use the cars sensors ) so, extra air screws the reading ,results in a fail , even though the cars pre and post cat lambdas are working and adjusting the mix

plug the holes in the exhaust and lambda will return to tolerance 
 

I grow increasingly alarmed about reports on this forum of MOT failures on Omega brake pipes. I've done plenty of mile in older(ish) Carltons and Senators and never had to replace a brake pipe. That said easily repairable.

but the original steel pipe is far better/stronger , you just need to clean and protect brake pipes before taking a car for an mot ,as part of an pre MOT check over.

[Doctor Gollum]

A leaking silencer won't be the cause of your emissions fault, although it is a failure by itself. New exhaust is £100 and less than an hours work. Sorting the high lambda number will require some proper diagnosis, but probably won't be too bad.


New cats(I would never buy used ones) aren't particularly expensive, but the costs are adding up.



Brake pipe is a trivial repair, and is common for a twenty year old car. You can't tell how bad a rusty looking steel brake pipe is, so they're listed as failures. Which is what a safety inspection is for. I've replaced several like this, and every one was justified. Smothering them in grease so they can't be examined is a bodge that I think should be a failure all by itself.


The welding is your real problem. It's why I got rid of my car last summer; a critical look at both sills, NS sill end to subframe mount/floor/seatbelt mount, NS wheel arch and quarter panel, front and rear chassis rails meant it wasn't worth fitting the new sills I had in stock. I had already repaired the OS sill end/floor and wheel arch. My car was repairable, it just wasn't worth the time even though it was mecanically strong(recent suspension overhauls, good engine, refreshed interior, everything working correctly). I strongly suspect, because I haven't looked at it, that yours is the same. Most of these cars are at this point in their life where even skilled DIY repairers(like me) won't repair them. Which is why they're not 'classics' - whatever that is - yet. There's still too many of them about in daily use. Give them another 10 years, and the remaining few dozen will be like a Cresta is now. You'll see one at a show and reminisce before moving on to look at something interesting.

And as you know, pretty much the exact same decision with my Desmond

Either strip it for parts you probably won't use or shop around and scrap it for £180ish towards it's replacement.

[terry paget]

Thank you all for your advice and experience. I thought this particular car was destined to be always free of rust, but I was wrong. This MOT failure has set me back. After 20 years of providing Senators and Omegas for my family, that happy period is over. I now have 2 working Astras, and a Rover Streetwise that came with daughter-in-law. I prefer the big Vauxhalls though.

My other 2.5 estate is also due for MOT now. It seem all right to me, but I must check it out very thoroughly, especially brake pipes!

[Doctor Gollum]

Thank you all for your advice and experience. I thought this particular car was destined to be always free of rust, but I was wrong. This MOT failure has set me back. After 20 years of providing Senators and Omegas for my family, that happy period is over. I now have 2 working Astras, and a Rover Streetwise that came with daughter-in-law. I prefer the big Vauxhalls though.

My other 2.5 estate is also due for MOT now. It seem all right to me, but I must check it out very thoroughly, especially behind the sill covers and rear wheel arch liners!

Fixed 

[terry paget]

Thank you all for your advice and experience. I thought this particular car was destined to be always free of rust, but I was wrong. This MOT failure has set me back. After 20 years of providing Senators and Omegas for my family, that happy period is over. I now have 2 working Astras, and a Rover Streetwise that came with daughter-in-law. I prefer the big Vauxhalls though.

My other 2.5 estate is also due for MOT now. It seem all right to me, but I must check it out very thoroughly, especially behind the sill covers and rear wheel arch liners!

Fixed 

Thanks again, will do.

[terry paget]

I had checkd the brake pipes a year ago, looked good, I greased them. This tester knew where to look, he found 2 pipes in a bend LHS above the rear axle where I had not looked. If I wish to replace the rusty one, do I have to replace it all the way to the ABS unit, or can I connect a new pipe to the sound steel  pipe under the car?

[Doctor Gollum]

I had checkd the brake pipes a year ago, looked good, I greased them. This tester knew where to look, he found 2 pipes in a bend LHS above the rear axle where I had not looked. If I wish to replace the rusty one, do I have to replace it all the way to the ABS unit, or can I connect a new pipe to the sound steel  pipe under the car?

What else did it fail on?

[terry paget]

I had checkd the brake pipes a year ago, looked good, I greased them. This tester knew where to look, he found 2 pipes in a bend LHS above the rear axle where I had not looked. If I wish to replace the rusty one, do I have to replace it all the way to the ABS unit, or can I connect a new pipe to the sound steel  pipe under the car?

What else did it fail on?

Failed on 5 items.
Lambda outside specified limits
Major exhaust leak
Brake pipe excessively corrode offside (front ro rear)
nearside rear suspension component prescribed area corroded
offside                        ditto

I presume when they identify the car to the Boston emissions tester it also advises prescribed areas  to seek out and examine, and probably boxes they can tick to list failures.

[Doctor Gollum]

As you were... Thought this was an additional 2.5...

[terry paget]

Thank you all for your advice and experience. I thought this particular car was destined to be always free of rust, but I was wrong. This MOT failure has set me back. After 20 years of providing Senators and Omegas for my family, that happy period is over. I now have 2 working Astras, and a Rover Streetwise that came with daughter-in-law. I prefer the big Vauxhalls though.

My other 2.5 estate is also due for MOT now. It seem all right to me, but I must check it out very thoroughly, especially behind the sill covers and rear wheel arch liners!

Fixed 

Done. Left hand cill

Right hand cill

Right hand wheel arch

They look remarkably healthy to me.
 

[terry paget]

Apologies, rhight hand wheel arch of diffferent car. Here is V828 rear wheel arch:

[Doctor Gollum]

Now remove the covers from the rear end of the sills INSIDE the wheel arches. And if possible from your pit, look very closely at the areas where the triangular plates bolt on.

And report back 

[BazaJT]

Re the question on the front to rear brake pipe;yes you can buy a joint piece and use that as long as you have a pipe flaring tool that can be used in the area you're where the joint is.

[terry paget]

Re the question on the front to rear brake pipe;yes you can buy a joint piece and use that as long as you have a pipe flaring tool that can be used in the area you're where the joint is.

Can I use the flaring tool on the steel pipe?

[terry paget]

Now remove the covers from the rear end of the sills INSIDE the wheel arches. And if possible from your pit, look very closely at the areas where the triangular plates bolt on.

And report back 

Right front support bracket

Right rear

Left front

Left rear

[Doctor Gollum]

Struggling to see from the pictures what caused the failure :-/

[terry paget]

The recent pictures are of V828, the 1998 2.5 that has not yet been tested. X168, car that failed MOT, is my son's car. I am hoping V828 car will pass MOT when I submit it. The cills look good. My worry is the left hand catalyst, which rattles when punched. It passed 2 years in this state. Once again, I shall submit it rattling, and see how it fares. Last year it had an advisory about rust near the steering box.

Now that I better understand why cill corrosion warrants MOT failure I shall re-examine X168. Last year I had an Omega fail MOT with one of those brackets rusted through. That was beyond easy repair, car was scrapped.

[terry paget]

Here are all my remaining Omegas in happier days, 2016. The car in the background is 0E03, my other running Omega, ex-police manual 3.2, seriously rusty.

[BazaJT]

The flaring tool I have[bought some years ago off flea bay]was a pretty cheap affair,not top of the line or anything special,will do flares on steel,kunifer and copper pipe.I think[others will probably know better]that most flaring tools will do steel pipe.

[terry paget]

The flaring tool I have[bought some years ago off flea bay]was a pretty cheap affair,not top of the line or anything special,will do flares on steel,kunifer and copper pipe.I think[others will probably know better]that most flaring tools will do steel pipe.

Thanks. I have discovered that kunifer is a copper nickel (Cu Ni) alloy, stronger than copper and more easy to flair than steel. You say that you can flair steel pipe with a cheap e-bay tool, gives me hope.

[BazaJT]

Kunifer is my preferred choice for doing any brake pipes on my cars.Any way you can but try your flaring tool on the steel pipe on the car as you've not really got anything to lose if all else fails simply renew pipe front to rear.

[terry paget]

Kunifer is my preferred choice for doing any brake pipes on my cars.Any way you can but try your flaring tool on the steel pipe on the car as you've not really got anything to lose if all else fails simply renew pipe front to rear.

Thanks. In the past I used to buy brake pipes made for me by a local factor. Recently he would not do it any more for insurance reasons, but happily let me make up my own, using his kit. I did have a copper brake pipe break once; as Dave the Builder said, copper pipes are nowhere near as strong as steel pipes.

[johnnydog]

I have previously replaced brake pipes on my classic cars for many years with kunifer, and they have been fine, and are eadier to bend to shape using using the original pipes as a pattern. Plus they don't rust!

[Nick W]

Kunifer is my preferred choice for doing any brake pipes on my cars.Any way you can but try your flaring tool on the steel pipe on the car as you've not really got anything to lose if all else fails simply renew pipe front to rear.

I don't know anywhere around here that sells steel brake pipe, cunifer is what you get. The times I've asked out of curiosity ifthey sell steel, the answer has always been the same: why would you want it?

[BazaJT]

Yes Nick I'd imagine steel pipe is now almost impossible to get hold of[if at all]I can't even recall how long since it is since I used any.Prefer Kunifer over copper as I believe copper can work harden and if not supported correctly can fracture with vibration.

[terry paget]

I have the impression that steel brake pipes are available individually, or once were. And I imagine that on the assembly line steel brake pipes arrive already shaped, and can therefore be manoeuvred into place without much difficulty by men who know how. If so, the old pipe can be similarly removed. Am I deluded?

[Kevin Wood]

Possibly. Brake lines will go into a bare shell on the production line, most likely, so whether they'll come out easily around engine, gearbox and all the other trimmings is another matter.

Kunifer lines offer no advantage on a production line because, as you say, the steel lines will be pre-shaped and anything to save a few pennies off the cost of each car...

They're a no-brainer for a repair, as said. Just fit a union to join new pipe to old somewhere convenient and make a reapir section.

[terry paget]

Possibly. Brake lines will go into a bare shell on the production line, most likely, so whether they'll come out easily around engine, gearbox and all the other trimmings is another matter.

Kunifer lines offer no advantage on a production line because, as you say, the steel lines will be pre-shaped and anything to save a few pennies off the cost of each car...

They're a no-brainer for a repair, as said. Just fit a union to join new pipe to old somewhere convenient and make a reapir section.

Thanks. That appears to confirm that I can flare the steel pipe to allow me to join the new pipe to it, using an e-bay flaring kit. Just collecting data before I decide to scrap this rather nice Omega estate. It needs cill welding, a new cat back exhaust, and a brake pipe.

[dave the builder]

worth the time and the spend if your happy with the car 
buy something else and there will probably be jobs need doing anyway
did you not ask the price of getting the garage to do it ?

[terry paget]

worth the time and the spend if your happy with the car 
buy something else and there will probably be jobs need doing anyway
did you not ask the price of getting the garage to do it ?

Too true. When I bought V828 July 2015 for £259, I found it needed new clutch slave cylinder, cam belt, exhaust, coil pack, plug leads, plugs and rear doors.
I did not ask a price. Last time they failed OE03 for cills they would not quote till they had removed the cill covers, then they charged me £300. Less than my Jaguar owning table tennis playing chum, who was charged £650 for a similar job, as reported elsehere.

I respect Nick W's view, but when I get V828 through its MOT I shall remove the cill covers from X168, then decide.

[terry paget]

Possibly. Brake lines will go into a bare shell on the production line, most likely, so whether they'll come out easily around engine, gearbox and all the other trimmings is another matter.

Kunifer lines offer no advantage on a production line because, as you say, the steel lines will be pre-shaped and anything to save a few pennies off the cost of each car...

They're a no-brainer for a repair, as said. Just fit a union to join new pipe to old somewhere convenient and make a reapir section.

I note all the e-bay flaring kits claim to be able to flare copper and cunifer ppe, but not steel pipe. Are there kits marketed that will flare steel pipe?

[b4ndit]

try this used one many time and they work well can't do a link but here is the flea bay number 272815053600

[terry paget]

try this used one many time and they work well can't do a link but here is the flea bay number 272815053600

Not this one, was it?
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Brake-Pipe-Flaring-Tool-for-3-16-Copper-Kunifer-Steel-Brake-Pipes-SAE-Double/272815053600?hash=item3f850b5b20:g:cIMAAOSw5HJXK4f~

[b4ndit]

yes that's the one never had a problem with it

[terry paget]

yes that's the one never had a problem with it

Thanks. It seems to be specifically for SAE 3/16"  pipe. That is fine as long as Omega pipe is SAE 3/16".

[b4ndit]

yes that's the one never had a problem with it

Thanks. It seems to be specifically for SAE 3/16"  pipe. That is fine as long as Omega pipe is SAE 3/16".

think standard brake pipe id 3/16

[terry paget]

yes that's the one never had a problem with it

Thanks. It seems to be specifically for SAE 3/16"  pipe. That is fine as long as Omega pipe is SAE 3/16".

think standard brake pipe id 3/16

I suspect you are right. Just measured mine, they are 6.07mm od, which could well be 3/16" SAE id. Thanks for your help. All now awaits what I find when I remove the cill covers. Grandson Tom, aged 4.4, regards this as his car; he loves it, has just been promoted to a bigger, forward facing car seat, and can now reach the window switch. There is no external sign of rust, pretty good for a 19 year old car - my thanks to ajsphead. The clutch is original, though it is on its 4th differential.

[Enceladus]

Four differentials on one Omega?
You need a better source of diffs. A properly reconditioned Carlton/Senator/Omega differential should be good for 80K-100K miles. Don't know exactly because I've never kept the car long enough.

[terry paget]

Four differentials on one Omega?
You need a better source of diffs. A properly reconditioned Carlton/Senator/Omega differential should be good for 80K-100K miles. Don't know exactly because I've never kept the car long enough.

Previous owner had Swiss Valley Garage, Clevedon, fit the first one 9July2012, source unknown. When it got noisy I fitted a spare I had kept off a 3.0 I had scrapped. When that diff got noisy I fitted one off a 2.0 I was scrapping. That 2.0 also provided a manual gearbox for a forum member who collected it, who was pleased to find the diff and prop shaft already removed.
The two I fitted were not reconditioned., though I did change the oil.