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[JamesV6CDX]

As per my recent drop in MPG, it's just occured to me that the last two times I filled up from empty to full, I've been using Tesco 99ron petrol. On a steady 60mph run on the 99ron, I get 36.5 mpg, (calculated at the pump - MID said 38mpg) which although average, I know from experience the 2.0 should do more than that (I've had 44mpg under those conditions)..  however around town, I'm getting about 21mpg on the 99ron.

I only just thought about it, because I remember in my old V6, it was significantly more thirsty on the 99ron than 95ron.

I must admit, I've been guilty of using Tesco supermarket fuels recently. But, when I went to brackley, on BP fuel (from empty).. I did 110 miles on £15, which is closer to the figures I would expect... espeially with my lead foot there.. and Markie's even heavier lead foot rushing my drunken arse 55 miles home...!

Sooo... for anyone who knows or has experienced these things.. is there a chance that the supermarket fuels, especially this 99 ron Tesco stuff, is responsible for such an awful MPG?

I thought it was supposed to do more MPG than 95 ron, but one never knows.....

Comments welcome

[Auto Addict]

Interesting, when I switched to Tesco 99, I found I was getting an extra 40 out of a tank, but on the last two fillups, this has dropped considerably.

[Martin_1962]

With petrol I found Shell was good for mileage, as that is what was sold at Exeter and Brent Knoll north bound, and I always get good consumption from there to home, I have no Shell near me in Worcester so use Tesco 97RON and it guzzles that, I reckon I get 10mpg but since it is only used on warm up not too bothered.

Last time I Shell filled was going to Cornwall last year when I had both tanks full, but couldn't get any gas Friday night so was 25 miles down, and had to use it from Exeter to Okehampton .

[The Barge Captain]

Could the worsening fuel economy be associated with the ECU learning the new characteristics of the 99 RON over a period of time and adjusting timing / mix accordingly?

[Jimbob]

I did use it, with 5p off vouchers it was cheaper than ordinary shell

After a while car did start feeling a bit rougher so I swapped back.

[Gaffers]

Those that have used Tesco in Northamptonshire recently read this link now !!!!!  

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6405051.stm

Barstewards!

Gaffers

[Kevin Wood]

Hmm. Filled up at Morrisons before driving up to TheBoy's on Saturday.

Now have engine light on  

They'd better not have rogered my Lambda sensors!

Edited to say: and it's nice to see the AA fighting the motorist's corner as usual!

Kevin

[Martin_1962]

Hmm. Filled up at Morrisons before driving up to TheBoy's on Saturday.

Now have engine light on  

They'd better not have rogered my Lambda sensors!

Edited to say: and it's nice to see the AA fighting the motorist's corner as usual!

Kevin

Keep all details - you will need them to claim back

[Kevin Wood]

I wish I hadn't filled up the tank with Shell last night thus destroying the evidence.

Kevin

[Kevin Wood]

Thinking about it, I was wondering on the way home from TB's on Sat. night that it was odd that the MID was averaging sub - 30 MPG on the A34. It normally manages 32-34 when cruising at sensible speeds. Maybe that was down to fuel quality.

As I say, wish I'd put 2 and 2 together about this time yesterday and I would have saved a sample of the fuel before filling up.  

I suppose I'd better get the fault codes read. Question of whether I drive 40 miles round trip back to the dealer I bought it from, who will hopefully have a look under warranty, or stump up for a Tech2 session at the local stealer.

Edited to say: I remember another 3.2 Facelift at TB's which had just thrown a couple of emissions fault codes. Can't remember your username I'm afraid. I wonder where you got your fuel from.


Kevin

[Dave-C]

Listen out on the news today! 28thFeb 07, there has been a recall or something on Tesco fuel.  It's been burning engies out due to an incorrect ingredient....  BBC Radio 2 gave it out earlier !!!!!!!!!!!!  

DC

If I can find more on this I'll post it..

[Dave-C]

Inquiry into 'contaminated' fuel  
 
Ethanol content should be made clear
Trading standards officials have launched an investigation after drivers complained that they had been sold "contaminated" fuel.
Drivers from across south-east England believe they may have been sold petrol containing ethanol, which has damaged their cars.

Their vehicles have been juddering, misfiring and had a loss of power.

But the AA said tests showed ethanol was not to blame and the cause of the problem remained unknown.


AA technical specialist Vanessa Guyll said drivers would notice problems with the running of their cars almost immediately, and providing they sought help quickly it was "unlikely" the contaminated petrol would cause any long-term damage to engines.

'Damaged oxygen sensors'

Ian Hillier, a petroleum spokesman for the Trading Standards Institute, said: "I understand that there have been around 75-100 complaints from people in south-east England.

"Including ethanol in petrol is not really contaminating it, but there has be a clear warning to people who buy petrol as to exactly what is in it."

Dozens of drivers have also been contacting BBC Radio Northampton's consumer programme after filling up their cars with the allegedly contaminated fuel.

Dave Odell works for Tony Brooks' a garage in Northampton. He said the garage had had a number of cars with damaged oxygen sensors.

Some car dealerships say they are trying to repair the damaged cars, which are now off the road, but the parts they need are now in short supply.

'Thousands affected'

Some drivers say they bought "contaminated" fuel from Tesco and Morrisons petrol stations.

Tesco says it rigorously tests its fuel to the highest European standards, and sources from the same suppliers as competitors.

Motorist Darren Ross, 42, has complained to the Department of Trade and Industry about the problem.

He buys petrol for his Saab convertible 1.8T at the Tesco superstore in Waltham Abbey, Essex, close to where he lives, and believes it led to his car breaking down.

His local Saab dealership told him it was a fault with sensors and that they had had 15 other similar problems over the last week.

Mr Ross said the repairs are costing him £200, which is not covered by his warranty because they are linked to a fuel fault.

"I want compensation and reimbursement. I need my car for my work and it has been back to Saab four times in the last two weeks."

 
C & P'd from BBC website,

\dc

[Gaffers]

Just been listening to radio 4 (like all good officers) apparently the 'contamination' is not restricted to Tesco and Morrisons but to many other suppliers.

I have 1/4 tank left and I am due to drive upto Brum this weekend....... pffffft

Gaffers

[Martin_1962]

At least I use gas most of the time

[TheBoy]

Edited to say: I remember another 3.2 Facelift at TB's which had just thrown a couple of emissions fault codes. Can't remember your username I'm afraid. I wonder where you got your fuel from.

edwardmickey, and he is around the North Bucks/Northamptonshire area...

[Kevin Wood]

edwardmickey, and he is around the North Bucks/Northamptonshire area...

Thanks TB. That's the chap.  I'll PM him and see if he's had any more trouble.

Kevin

[edwardmickey]

Tesco Swines!!!

I drove from Milton Keynes to Brackley, no problems.  Filled up my tank at Tesco in Brackley, then - 1 mile later at TheBoy, EM light on - Tech 2 - emissions.

Once TheBoy reset the light, it ain't come on since but as for MPG, I have no idea since my Trip Comp ain't been reading right for a few weeks now.

Keeping away from Tesco Filling Stations for a while - every little hurts!!

[Chopsdad]

I found BP Ultimate gave best MPG but expensive. Texaco normal unleaded made engine run smooth and gave decent MPG.  Asda fuel seems to be 50% water and returns awful MPG.  So last 2 tanks have been Shell Optimax - smooth, more responsive and better MPG round town - also from most used and cheapest station in town, so nice and fresh too.

[Essex_Andy]

I use tescos at Lakeside as I pass it each way on my daily commute.

To date no probs at all and noticable improvement all round....but keeping eyes wide open re any signs

[Kevin Wood]

I drove from Milton Keynes to Brackley, no problems.  Filled up my tank at Tesco in Brackley, then - 1 mile later at TheBoy, EM light on - Tech 2 - emissions.
 
Once TheBoy reset the light, it ain't come on since but as for MPG, I have no idea since my Trip Comp ain't been reading right for a few weeks now.
 

There's hope that it will at least clear and stay cleared then. If you believe the hype Lambda sensors are now gold dust and I don't fancy trying to get (let alone paying for) 4 of the damn things!

Kevin

[Ghosts in my machine]

No expert on Lambda sensors, but is it possible to clean them if you encounter a problem rather than replace them?

I don't know how thin the coating is on the sensor tips or how sensitive they are to damage by chemicals or other cleaning methods, but theorectically you could remove the contamination (whatever it is) and return the sensor to a serviceable condition. Unless the contamination has damaged or removed the coating of course!

I imagine that the Vx dealer will just replace any sensors that come up as faulty as a result of dodgy fuel (thats what TIS will tell them to do), and of course they will make a killing on them! The answer will probably be that they can't get any and your car will be off the road for two weeks!

[Kevin Wood]

No expert on Lambda sensors, but is it possible to clean them if you encounter a problem rather than replace them?  
 

That's a point, actually. Lambda sensors can be cleaned by heating them in the flame of a blowtorch. People have done this to revive wideband O2s that have been used to tune engines running lead substitute.

Kevin

[Kevin Wood]

I imagine that the Vx dealer will just replace any sensors that come up as faulty as a result of dodgy fuel (thats what TIS will tell them to do), and of course they will make a killing on them! The answer will probably be that they can't get any and your car will be off the road for two weeks!

Thinking about it, does anyone know if the emissions light will clear if the problem goes away or does it need to be reset using a Tech2?

I've got a Cheapo Tech2 on order from Ebay anyway. Might have a go at cleaning up the sensors in a blowtorch flame. Assuming that's what the fault is, of course.

Kevin

[Ghosts in my machine]

Recent events do answer the initial question though:

MPG using Tesco fuel will drop. Some people are only getting 3 miles on a full tank! [smiley=grin.gif] [smiley=grin.gif]

[Hillper]

If I've said it once, I've said it about three times, "DONT USE SUPERMARKET FUEL".

My freind works in the industry and he said it's not the same.  Something to do with the additives being added locally and different in composition.  Can't quite remember.
Over the years, I've known a few people who use it suffer strange effects which they thought may be fuel related.

I only ever use it in an emergency.

[Kevin Wood]

"DONT USE SUPERMARKET FUEL"

Problem is, for every expert who says it's crap there's another who says it comes out of the same tankers as the big names. I'm not especially pro or anti supermarkets. I filled up there because I was passing when the tank was empty.

What this does highlight is that there's a quality control problem in the industry and against that backdrop whose fuel can you trust?

Kevin

[Nickbat]

"DONT USE SUPERMARKET FUEL"

Problem is, for every expert who says it's crap there's another who says it comes out of the same tankers as the big names. I'm not especially pro or anti supermarkets. I filled up there because I was passing when the tank was empty.

What this does highlight is that there's a quality control problem in the industry and against that backdrop whose fuel can you trust?

Kevin

Well, the bottom line is that quality certification is standard throughout the industry. While there may be slight differences in composition (Tesco 99RON contains up 5% bio-ethanol), it is not right to imply that supermarket fuel is substandard per se. Indeed, if you go to http://www.greenergy.com who supply Tesco you can view product certification on line. It would appear that something has gone wrong somewhere in the supply chain, but the cause is baffling the experts at the moment and those who blame Morrisons and Tesco are, to my mind, misguided. You wouldn't blame the corner shop owner if you found a slug in a tin of beans...you'd be on to the food manufacturer. Same logic must surely apply here.    

[Nickbat]

Having re-read it, I mean that obviously you'd take the beans back to the shop, but you shouldn't take out your anger on the shopkeeper. Those who bought duff petrol had a contract with Tescos/Morrisons and will, quite rightly, need to take it up with them. It was only apportionment of the blame that I was wittering on about.  

[Gaffers]

With petrol I found Shell was good for mileage, as that is what was sold at Exeter and Brent Knoll north bound, and I always get good consumption from there to home, I have no Shell near me in Worcester so use Tesco 97RON and it guzzles that, I reckon I get 10mpg but since it is only used on warm up not too bothered.

Last time I Shell filled was going to Cornwall last year when I had both tanks full, but couldn't get any gas Friday night so was 25 miles down, and had to use it from Exeter to Okehampton .

I have just stuck a load of V-power from Shell into my 2.5 and the difference was noticable. Quicker pickup, faster response was using Esso 95 before as it was more convenient.....

I just may have been converted........

Gaffers

[Martin_1962]

For the same power you need more Tesco 99 RON as the Ethanol has less energy per litre than petrol.

People were geting 1mpg worse on it than BP/Shell stuff

[Kevin Wood]

For the same power you need more Tesco 99 RON as the Ethanol has less energy per litre than petrol.

Very true. Take the extreme example and compare fuel consumption figures for petrol and E85 biofuel for cars that can burn either!

Less energy per litre means less power as well, unless the power you gain by having a higher octane fuel is greater than that you lose by "watering down" the petrol with ethanol.

In other words, unless you've got a high compression or turbocharged engine that will retard its' ignition and / or limit its' boost on lesser fuels, you might as well not bother.

Then again, it sounds like supermarket 95 RON has a good dose of ethanol too.

Kevin

[Dave-C]

As we may take the beans back to the shopkeeper, can we pour the petrol through Tesco's letterbox?

Just kidding of course, but, it is the first point of contact that always gets the brunt of the customer.

I sincerely hope that if any of the guys on here who've been affected, get put right soon with minimum disturbance..

Dave C

[Dave-C]

Silicone implants are now being blamed for cars cutting out and running rough, do any of us on here have implants, I don't, my Omega's running OK though,,,  see the link C&P'd from BBC web site http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6409025.stm

DC

"Meanwhile, an AA source told the BBC traces of silicon have been found in petrol taken from the cars. "

[Dave-C]

Sorry for the previous, sick sense on humour, however it's alarming..

DC

[TheBoy]

Asda fuel seems to be 50% water and returns awful MPG

I average 25mpg from Asda fuel....

[JamesV6CDX]

Asda fuel seems to be 50% water and returns awful MPG

I average 25mpg from Asda fuel....

Compared to what, say on Optimax, or normal shell fuel (for example) ?

[TheBoy]

Asda fuel seems to be 50% water and returns awful MPG

I average 25mpg from Asda fuel....

Compared to what, say on Optimax, or normal shell fuel (for example) ?

About same from normal BP.

Did try a couple of tanks of V-Power just before Santa Pod last year, but economy dropped as I wanted to see how much quicker is was on that stuff....

[paolo]

some real horror stories.

i have always used high octane shell or bp with a little squirt of fuel additive

no budget fuels for my omega!

[crowman]

If a petrol company wants to put additives in our fuel (like planet saving ethanol) it should be clearly marked at the pump. Greenergy!! who the hell are they?? Until now I never knew who they were, let alone putting GREEN s**t in my fuel. TONE should concentrate on China & the States before buggering our cars up. This is saving the planet gone mad. It will get worse. Sue their asses. Start with whoever sold the fuel and watch it go up the ladder

[Nickbat]

If a petrol company wants to put additives in our fuel (like planet saving ethanol) it should be clearly marked at the pump. Greenergy!! who the hell are they?? Until now I never knew who they were, let alone putting GREEN s**t in my fuel. TONE should concentrate on China & the States before buggering our cars up. This is saving the planet gone mad. It will get worse. Sue their asses. Start with whoever sold the fuel and watch it go up the ladder

Greenergy is an independent oil company which was founded in 1992 and has a turnover of £775 million. They don't put green s**t in your fuel, just bio-ethanol which is becoming common practice in a number of countries. But that is not the problem, here. It is becoming apparent that the contamination is due to excessive silicon compounds (used for anti-frothing) somehow entering the supply chain. Someone, somewhere made a mistake. A bit expensive (understatement of the year), but unlikely to be malicious - and certainly has naff all to do with "TONE" (though almost everything else does  ).

[crowman]

Thanks for your knowledge about Greenergy. The point was, if any fuel supplier changes the formula of their fuel that we "unknowingly" fill up with, then they are liable for any damage to our vehicles. Would you please explain why ETHANOL is added without Mr & Mrs Joe Soaps knowledge. If it's that bloody good they should be shouting it from the tree tops and advertising it at the pumps. Have not heard a great fanfare about it. Unusual for "TONE". It is part of his legacy. Not to mention RED KEN. Ooooops Sorry. Did'nt mean to mention that.

[JamesV6CDX]

They don't put green s**t in your fuel, just bio-ethanol

Is it true, that this bio-ethanol in the fuel, reduces the economy and combustability of the petrol? Hence a reduction in MPG?

[JamesV6CDX]

They don't put green s**t in your fuel, just bio-ethanol

Is it true, that this bio-ethanol in the fuel, reduces the economy and combustability of the petrol? Hence a reduction in MPG?

As such, can anyone confirm a reputable supplier where I can buy fuel, that's NOT contaminated with this green s**t

[Martin_1962]

Calor, Flogas

Shell & BP, Esso USED to be good currently I do not know.

[Auto Addict]

Just filled up with BP Ultimate and..........WOW [smiley=2vrolijk_08.gif]

[Nickbat]

Thanks for your knowledge about Greenergy. The point was, if any fuel supplier changes the formula of their fuel that we "unknowingly" fill up with, then they are liable for any damage to our vehicles. Would you please explain why ETHANOL is added without Mr & Mrs Joe Soaps knowledge. If it's that bloody good they should be shouting it from the tree tops and advertising it at the pumps. Have not heard a great fanfare about it. Unusual for "TONE". It is part of his legacy. Not to mention RED KEN. Ooooops Sorry. Did'nt mean to mention that.

They put 5% bio-ethanol to "help cut greenhouse gas emissions". Don't get me started on all this carbon footprint stuff, though. I could rant on for hours.

[Dave-C]

I'll confess to using standard unleaded from Tesco, it's convenient as the wife goes there on a regular shopping trip with mum.  It's not until now that I recall that I've been saying for weeks, that, the car seems a bit sluggish, especially for a 3.0l auto, ocasionally I use Esso which was noticably different...  not totally sure if the ethanol problem, that's the problem that Tesco will no doubt deny! is an issue with standard unleaded or just the super..

I'll watch the space V closely..  I think we're having some Shell inthe morning!

Dave C

[Dave-C]

Sorry for repeating myself (Omega Won't Start - Thread) will octane booster help get these poorly motors sorted?

DC

[Omegatoy]

Right here is a post to tryn to help you understand how it works,
you have all seen the giant tanks they store the petrol in yes?look loke giant gas tanks!! anyway imagine one of these full of petrol, now the top third is used to make optimax, bp super etc etc, becuase its the purest of the lot

second third is used to make esso unleaded ditto bp ditto shell etc etc becuase its fairly pure middle of the road stuff and is clean spirit

last third where obviously all the rubbish has settled and the heavy crap thats in there has gone, THIS IS WHAT TEH SUPERMARKETS BUY!! they then have the additives added and sell it to the unsuspecting public as cheap fuel, which it is!!! so they are not actually doing anything wrong just buying the least pure fuel, cos its cheaper!! now on your shopping cart cars this wouldnt normally affect teh way it runs cos they are usually basic cars, but anything with a bit of oomph in the engine requires better fuel really, but as in all cars the maps are actually programmed to run the stuff with less ignition advance hence low power and poor fuel economy, which is where no one checkls!!! they think cos they are saving a couple of p at eh pump they are getting a good deal!!
however to anyone who doesent believe it makes a difference do a brim to brim on a tankful of supermarkjet fuel then do a tank of optimax or bp super or taxaco super what ever you can get, then refill with the same stuff next time and again do a brim to brim mileage check and see the difference!!
the reason for the first fill is to clean the sensors and allow the engine to recover a little bit of its lost edge!! it may actually take two or three tanks to clean it out properly but i bet you get more than the supermarket fuel!!!
hope this helps
Omegatoy

P.S this is why you are told it all comes from teh same depots! cos it does !! and is also why you might see a shell tanker or a bp tanker delivering to your supermarket, cos it will be full of the crap stuff from the bottom of the tank and they need it emptied to get the next lot in!!

[Dave-C]

Latest

C&P'd from BBC.co.uk

Cambridgeshire County Council's trading standards department had the fuel sample tested at a London forensic science laboratory.

Tests carried out for Tesco and Morrisons have found no fault so far.  Yeh!

Many drivers said they had filled up at the two supermarkets before their cars started to show problems such as juddering and misfiring.

The petrol has been traced to a storage depot in Essex. The fuel industry is testing its own supplies.

It is thought silicone may have found its way into a batch of petrol in transit by ship into the UK or in storage containers.

Silicone is a compound containing the element silicon. Its uses include insulation and lubrication.

Automotive expert Professor Malcolm Fox, from the University of Leeds, said low levels of silicone could affect a car's performance.

"When it burns, it will form silicon dioxide and will deposit a very thin sheet on the sensor - the sensor is in the exhaust - and that probably gives a false signal to the engine computer."


DC

[Kevin Wood]

I read somewhere that Trading Standards did an independant test on a fuel sample taken from a punter's car and found silicone.

Interesting that supermarkets are able to buy lower grade fuel than the big names. It's that sort of insight from the industry that really helps because without it' it's very difficult to be subjective about the quality of what you have purchased. I certainly notice the difference between good fuel and bad in my Westfield but it's got 11:1 compression and very basic engine management. It's also not as refined as an Omega and gets driven hard more of the time  so if it runs rough you generally hear / feel it. I've not really had the Omega long enough to have noticed a difference between fuels as I'm probably not 100% used to the car yet, but in my previous "tin top" I just used to use the cheapest fuel (which was often Shell, but other times Morrisons   ).

If you change fuel it can take quite a while for your car to extract the best performance from it, especially if a poor fuel has caused knock retard to kick in. The ECU will quickly retard the ignition from the default setting if it detects knock, but the timing is then only very slowly "ratcheted up" if there is no knock present. As Omegatoy says, if you decide to experiment with better fuel give it a good few tankfuls of exclusive use before you draw any conclusions. You might notice an improvement immediately, but you'll probably notice  bigger improvement if you persevere.

Kevin