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Author Topic: Question for Mr McBurger? Maybe others?  (Read 4151 times)

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MaxV6

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Re: Question for Mr McBurger? Maybe others?
« Reply #15 on: 22 February 2007, 14:22:35 »

Quote
I may have mis-understood this, but who said "saying I won't do over 70 doesn't cut it" and the the only other option is to "stay at home"? That post basically implies that if I don't want to BREAK THE LAW by speeding when overtaking in lane 2, then I should stay home? I'm afraid I can't agree with this. I DO agree that when overtaking you need to to the manouver as fast as you can, and then move over. But it should be as fast as you LEGALLY can.
You're reading the wrong intent into those words James.
I abhor the tailgaters as much as you do... but the sad truth is, that there isn't actually a "get rid of tailgaters" button or manoeuvre that doesn't involve additional risk in some way (unless you have flashing blue lights to put on) .....   and while technically RMcB's passive resistance idea is sound, the risk is still elevated...  it's still more likely to spark a serious road rage incident than the alternative. no matter how much "I'm sorry for being in the way" gesticulating you do..  That doesn't mean i LIKE the alternative, but I hate it less than the prospect of a road rage incident.
The problem is that the morons exist, and there's nothing directly that you or I can actually do about that, the only guaranteed manner of staying completely out of their way is to Stay home...  , which I like even less. (and so should you...  )


Quote
I've tried overtaking quicker, hitting sport mode and going up past 90mph plus, and to be honest this just increases the danger. People come up behind you just as close and just as quick, regardless of whether you're doing 70 or 100. Not to mention you're at risk of loosing a licence, just to compensate for some idiot who thinks he owns the road.



This, i'm afraid , implies that you're doing so in a re-active manner...  
it also really doesn't jibe with my experience....  or basic maths...

as i tried to suggest earlier, the entire manoeuvre must be planned with all variables in mind....   if they're still coming up on your tail so fast, then you're simply not planning well enough or, perhaps not taking into account all factors sufficiently.

The law may well state 70MPH as a limit, but additional speed used in the safe overtaking of an obstacle , very very rarely will attract negative attention from any traffic police...  provided it is clearly One overtaking manoeuvre, performed safely and with the speed obviously decreasing to "normal" afterwards, and not simply driving down the fast lane claiming them all to be so...

Traffic police are trained, and intelligent you know....    and observe a driver's behaviour before pulling them in....  

and obviously planned safe use of momentarily excess (but not silly)  speed in temporary overtaking moments is something they are generally fairly happy with... in appropriate circumstances.

Tailgating, excessively slow overtaking, aggression (like sitting in the overtaking spot , flashing your lights... ) and unsafe driving practice, jerky movements, indecision,  lane hogging , excessive and unjustified speed, and a host of others are things they are NOT happy with.

typically, if you cannot plan a manoeuvre that will achieve a safe result with a limit on the  maximum speed of 85-90,  then don't manoeuvre at all. Sit behind the traffic that is holding you up, as it's just not safe to attempt it at present....  any manoeuvre that requires greater speed than that to achieve without being butt tagged by a tailgater, is very probably an unsafe one.



 another thing that annoys me and is unsafe...

people who don't accelerate sufficiently along a slip road to match velocities with the flow, when joining moving traffic.

and indeed come to a full stop towards the end of the slip road instead...

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Kevin Wood

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Re: Question for Mr McBurger? Maybe others?
« Reply #16 on: 22 February 2007, 14:24:30 »

One point to add about overtaking (thinking more of the single carriageway case here). Why do so many drivers overtake from a position of tailgating? They don't have a good view of the oncoming traffic from this position and can't judge how quickly they'll get past the vehicle ahead. They'll also do all their accelerating whilst exposed to danger on the other side of the road.

I was always taught to start the manoevre from well back, accelerate towards the vehicle in front whilst checking behind me and for oncoming traffic ahead of the vehicle in front. You arrive behind the vehicle with a good idea of the space you have in front, a good idea of how your vehicle is accelerating and therefore a better feel for how quickly you'll get past. You reach a point where you can decide to continue the overtake or drop back armed with much more information, and you probably have an extra 10-20 MPH on the vehicle in front before you're exposed to danger.

I agree with the minimum time of exposure to danger too. If the overtake is obviously going to be a leisurely affair then there's no need to go mad (I.E. very slow vehicle and plenty of space). If you're going to have to break the limit to get it over with then you probably shouldn't have started the manoevre in the first place but facing the oncoming traffic is the wrong time to hesitate or speedo-watch.

There's a lot of envy in some drivers' responses to being overtaken too, IMO.


Kevin
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JamesV6CDX

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Re: Question for Mr McBurger? Maybe others?
« Reply #17 on: 22 February 2007, 14:30:27 »

Quote
Quote
I may have mis-understood this, but who said "saying I won't do over 70 doesn't cut it" and the the only other option is to "stay at home"? That post basically implies that if I don't want to BREAK THE LAW by speeding when overtaking in lane 2, then I should stay home? I'm afraid I can't agree with this. I DO agree that when overtaking you need to to the manouver as fast as you can, and then move over. But it should be as fast as you LEGALLY can.
You're reading the wrong intent into those words James.
I abhor the tailgaters as much as you do... but the sad truth is, that there isn't actually a "get rid of tailgaters" button or manoeuvre that doesn't involve additional risk in some way (unless you have flashing blue lights to put on) .....   and while technically RMcB's passive resistance idea is sound, the risk is still elevated...  it's still more likely to spark a serious road rage incident than the alternative. no matter how much "I'm sorry for being in the way" gesticulating you do..  That doesn't mean i LIKE the alternative, but I hate it less than the prospect of a road rage incident.
The problem is that the morons exist, and there's nothing directly that you or I can actually do about that, the only guaranteed manner of staying completely out of their way is to Stay home...  , which I like even less. (and so should you...  )


Quote
I've tried overtaking quicker, hitting sport mode and going up past 90mph plus, and to be honest this just increases the danger. People come up behind you just as close and just as quick, regardless of whether you're doing 70 or 100. Not to mention you're at risk of loosing a licence, just to compensate for some idiot who thinks he owns the road.



This, i'm afraid , implies that you're doing so in a re-active manner...  
it also really doesn't jibe with my experience....  or basic maths...

as i tried to suggest earlier, the entire manoeuvre must be planned with all variables in mind....   if they're still coming up on your tail so fast, then you're simply not planning well enough or, perhaps not taking into account all factors sufficiently.

The law may well state 70MPH as a limit, but additional speed used in the safe overtaking of an obstacle , very very rarely will attract negative attention from any traffic police...  provided it is clearly One overtaking manoeuvre, performed safely and with the speed obviously decreasing to "normal" afterwards, and not simply driving down the fast lane claiming them all to be so...

Traffic police are trained, and intelligent you know....    and observe a driver's behaviour before pulling them in....  

and obviously planned safe use of momentarily excess (but not silly)  speed in temporary overtaking moments is something they are generally fairly happy with... in appropriate circumstances.

Tailgating, excessively slow overtaking, aggression (like sitting in the overtaking spot , flashing your lights... ) and unsafe driving practice, jerky movements, indecision,  lane hogging , excessive and unjustified speed, and a host of others are things they are NOT happy with.

typically, if you cannot plan a manoeuvre that will achieve a safe result with a limit on the  maximum speed of 85-90,  then don't manoeuvre at all. Sit behind the traffic that is holding you up, as it's just not safe to attempt it at present....  any manoeuvre that requires greater speed than that to achieve without being butt tagged by a tailgater, is very probably an unsafe one.



 another thing that annoys me and is unsafe...

people who don't accelerate sufficiently along a slip road to match velocities with the flow, when joining moving traffic.

and indeed come to a full stop towards the end of the slip road instead...


I agree for the most mate, and to be honest, I think I do take into account all variables, and drive very safely... but I guess I'm just having a rant, because the sad fact is, however well you drive, you can't drive for the other morons out there :(
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Nickbat

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Re: Question for Mr McBurger? Maybe others?
« Reply #18 on: 22 February 2007, 14:52:22 »

Quote
One point to add about overtaking (thinking more of the single carriageway case here). Why do so many drivers overtake from a position of tailgating? They don't have a good view of the oncoming traffic from this position and can't judge how quickly they'll get past the vehicle ahead. They'll also do all their accelerating whilst exposed to danger on the other side of the road.

I was always taught to start the manoevre from well back, accelerate towards the vehicle in front whilst checking behind me and for oncoming traffic ahead of the vehicle in front. You arrive behind the vehicle with a good idea of the space you have in front, a good idea of how your vehicle is accelerating and therefore a better feel for how quickly you'll get past. You reach a point where you can decide to continue the overtake or drop back armed with much more information, and you probably have an extra 10-20 MPH on the vehicle in front before you're exposed to danger.

I agree with the minimum time of exposure to danger too. If the overtake is obviously going to be a leisurely affair then there's no need to go mad (I.E. very slow vehicle and plenty of space). If you're going to have to break the limit to get it over with then you probably shouldn't have started the manoevre in the first place but facing the oncoming traffic is the wrong time to hesitate or speedo-watch.

There's a lot of envy in some drivers' responses to being overtaken too, IMO.


Kevin

Much as I enjoy watching motor sport on TV, the fact is that invariably racing drivers wishing to overtake get as near as the car in front in order to "get a tow", as the front vehicle is using its power to punch a hole in the air and the car behind is benefiting from being sucked into that hole and consequently is using less power, so that when the overtake is done, the car behind has an extra reserve of power. At least, that's the way I understand the physics.

Now, sane drivers will understand that this manoeuvre is fine on Hangar Straight, but both pointless and dangerous on a public highway. Nevertheless, it is seen as a "racing" manouevre and therefore appeals to those with excess testosterone.

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Martin_1962

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Re: Question for Mr McBurger? Maybe others?
« Reply #19 on: 22 February 2007, 15:01:00 »

I am afraid with tailgaters there is little to do, and most of them don't realise they are doing it.

If it is regular with the same cars report them and see what happens
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Re: Question for Mr McBurger? Maybe others?
« Reply #20 on: 22 February 2007, 15:56:08 »

Looks like a controversial subject. [smiley=smiley.gif]. I'll add my essay on the subject.

My method is to use the Windscreen wash technique to get them to back off, thus increasing the gap and therefore reducing the danger. I will often then slow down my rate of overtake to piss them off and take 3 times the distance to pull back over (nothing like a BMW racing back up behind you thinking that he's pushed you out of the way, only for him to find the way is still blocked because you didn't clear the lane as fast as he thought you would!), but that's just me. You don't need to adjust the spray, at speed alot goes over the car anyway.

I'm really not sure about the reduce speed and pull back in. I can see danger in that it is a largely uncommon and therefore unexpected manoeuvre and may cause others (especially the half asleep ones) to take evasive action/brake hard.

Braking is also a very bad idea. If the idiot behind doesn't lock up, the domino effect could cause an accident some distance back.

I have a mate who will throw his sarnies back out of the window at tailgaters (leaves a lovely greasy smear on a windscreen! [smiley=grin.gif]), but he's a big, hard bloke and road rage would have less consequences for him.

With regards to overtaking technique, the comment about taking a run up and not overtaking with a "Box" manoeuvre is good advice. It's always easier to brake and slot back in if you've misjudged it than accelerate out of trouble!
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Ronald_McBurger

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Re: Question for Mr McBurger? Maybe others?
« Reply #21 on: 22 February 2007, 16:33:45 »

Well. Martin. that is an interesting read. As a bloke I like you, as a driver I think you have some dangerous opinions and ideas about safety.
 :o


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Ronald_McBurger

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Re: Question for Mr McBurger? Maybe others?
« Reply #22 on: 22 February 2007, 16:40:23 »

Ghosts....

You may well not agree, but as I was trained by police and military originally and worked both in  Buckingham Palace and Downing Street as a professional government chauffeur as well as driving around many very famous people, like Freddie Mercury, Banarama, Ridley and Tony Scott, George Cole, Wham, former President Jimmy Carter on his UK visit in 1986 and many cabinet ministers,  before becoming a professional driving instructor, I really do know what I am talking about.

Maybe that is why I have never had a road rage incident or an accident in 27 years!

« Last Edit: 22 February 2007, 16:41:20 by Ronald_McBurger »
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Re: Question for Mr McBurger? Maybe others?
« Reply #23 on: 22 February 2007, 16:40:29 »

Simple, if you are being tailgated, leave a much bigger gap between you and the car in front.

Then if you have to brake, you can do it gently, giving you a greater stopping distance.

Then (hopefully) the tailgater won't run into the back of you.
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Re: Question for Mr McBurger? Maybe others?
« Reply #24 on: 22 February 2007, 16:44:34 »

Quote
Simple, if you are being tailgated, leave a much bigger gap between you and the car in front.

Then if you have to brake, you can do it gently, giving you a greater stopping distance.

Then (hopefully) the tailgater won't run into the back of you.

...also it gives him a gap to get into if he wants to overtake, which would be preferable.
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Re: Question for Mr McBurger? Maybe others?
« Reply #25 on: 22 February 2007, 16:58:38 »

My view is..

You cannot change others' attitudes when on the road - they wrongly think they're right in what they're doing.

When someone else is acting stupid, just let them pass without making any eye contact and certainly no gestures.  Chances of seeing the same driver ever again is remote; why let someone you don't know upset you?

If your driving is of acceptable standard, that's all the matters.  The idiots' driving will catch up with them in time........ it always does!!
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Re: Question for Mr McBurger? Maybe others?
« Reply #26 on: 22 February 2007, 17:12:23 »

it's also worthy of note how much this behaviour varies with geographical locations.....


seriously, there's a lot less of it , for example, in the north west and wales, along the A55, M56, and so on, than there is on the M40 ,M4 and M25.

it's not JUST to do with the traffic density, although that is obviously an influential factor

the way stuff happens around by the M25 A1M-M11 section is also different....

certain behaviour patterns are universal, but many of them are largely to do with stress levels and a failure to recognise the warning signs.

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Re: Question for Mr McBurger? Maybe others?
« Reply #27 on: 22 February 2007, 17:17:58 »

As an ADI mate of mine used to say you very rarely get a person admitting they aren't a very good driver, they will say they aren't very good at playing tennis for example but not admit to being a poor driver.
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Re: Question for Mr McBurger? Maybe others?
« Reply #28 on: 22 February 2007, 17:59:40 »

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As an ADI mate of mine used to say you very rarely get a person admitting they aren't a very good driver, they will say they aren't very good at playing tennis for example but not admit to being a poor driver.

That's right, Capn. I'm brilliant at driving but utter rubbish at tiddlywinks.  ;) ;D ;D
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Re: Question for Mr McBurger? Maybe others?
« Reply #29 on: 22 February 2007, 18:08:38 »

Interesting topic. There are quite a few differences between driving styles in the UK and Spain where I now spend most of my time. Both are bad for tailgating. I believe that in Britain it is mostly aggressive driving by Mr stressed up whereas here it mostly appears just to be how everyone drives. You just have to make allowances for it in order to stay safe.

Everyday you see people who don't indicate on roundabouts or are indicating incorrectly, people actually stopped at the end of slip roads onto busy dual carriageways or motorways waiting for a gap and even people overtaking on the inside on multi lane roads. Spain is a country where few people had a car until relatively recently so driving standards vary hugely.

One area where they do excel though is pulling back into the slow lane after overtaking and you are supposed to indicate when doing so. Traffic moves much  more freely on trunk roads as a result except where you have busy interchanges which just are not as well designed as the roads in the UK e.g. here slip roads are short, up hill or occasionally incredibly located IN tunnels. I guess the roads were not designed for the current levels of traffic. Sound familiar?!

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