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Author Topic: Air Crash  (Read 3425 times)

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the alarming man

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Air Crash
« on: 24 March 2015, 12:26:16 »

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The Sheriff

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Re: Air Crash
« Reply #1 on: 24 March 2015, 13:26:21 »

Very sad. No doubt weeks of speculation to follow.
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Kevin Wood

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Re: Air Crash
« Reply #2 on: 24 March 2015, 15:14:11 »

Another airbus. :(
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aaronjb

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Re: Air Crash
« Reply #3 on: 25 March 2015, 10:10:56 »

One that was being tracked by European radar at the time of loss, too, so there is a complete altitude & speed profile available on FlightRadar24 up to the point of radar loss (presumably when it dropped behind the mountains .. or into them  :-X )

Airspeed barely changes but it's a straight line from 38,000ft to 8,000ft in a little under 10 minutes at 4-500kts.  I suppose a 400kt impact would explain why it looks like the whole thing was thrown into a giant blender and then the Airbus-dust was sprinkled over the mountain :(
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Varche

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Re: Air Crash
« Reply #4 on: 25 March 2015, 10:53:06 »

One that was being tracked by European radar at the time of loss, too, so there is a complete altitude & speed profile available on FlightRadar24 up to the point of radar loss (presumably when it dropped behind the mountains .. or into them  :-X )

Airspeed barely changes but it's a straight line from 38,000ft to 8,000ft in a little under 10 minutes at 4-500kts.  I suppose a 400kt impact would explain why it looks like the whole thing was thrown into a giant blender and then the Airbus-dust was sprinkled over the mountain :(

Speak English man? kt- kilotons? kts - ?

I feel very sorry for any family trying to grieve and what do you bury/cremate? Minutes national silence here at midday.

Lets hope they get some answers.
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Re: Air Crash
« Reply #5 on: 25 March 2015, 10:55:53 »

One that was being tracked by European radar at the time of loss, too, so there is a complete altitude & speed profile available on FlightRadar24 up to the point of radar loss (presumably when it dropped behind the mountains .. or into them  :-X )

Airspeed barely changes but it's a straight line from 38,000ft to 8,000ft in a little under 10 minutes at 4-500kts.  I suppose a 400kt impact would explain why it looks like the whole thing was thrown into a giant blender and then the Airbus-dust was sprinkled over the mountain :(

Speak English man? kt- kilotons? kts - ?

I feel very sorry for any family trying to grieve and what do you bury/cremate? Minutes national silence here at midday.

Lets hope they get some answers.

Knots.  ;)
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aaronjb

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Re: Air Crash
« Reply #6 on: 25 March 2015, 11:15:29 »

I feel very sorry for any family trying to grieve and what do you bury/cremate? Minutes national silence here at midday.

Judging from the pictures in the press there won't be very much for anyone to bury - if they find whole bodies it'll be a miracle :-\ :(
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05omegav6

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Re: Air Crash
« Reply #7 on: 25 March 2015, 12:51:02 »

Blqck boxes were recovered yesterday, so preliminary findings will be out by the weekend... :-\
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Varche

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Re: Air Crash
« Reply #8 on: 25 March 2015, 13:20:48 »

Doh! Knots. I have heard of them too.
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aaronjb

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Re: Air Crash
« Reply #9 on: 25 March 2015, 13:50:13 »

Doh! Knots. I have heard of them too.

Well, how else would you tie your laces? ;)
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Varche

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Re: Air Crash
« Reply #10 on: 25 March 2015, 14:19:31 »

Just asked, Nurse fastens them with a velcro thing. I am not allowed laces :o
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aaronjb

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Re: Air Crash
« Reply #11 on: 25 March 2015, 14:50:43 »

Just asked, Nurse fastens them with a velcro thing. I am not allowed laces :o

 ;D
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Re: Air Crash
« Reply #12 on: 25 March 2015, 21:45:15 »

Very very sad  :(
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Re: Air Crash
« Reply #13 on: 26 March 2015, 08:56:27 »

So this morning it is being said that one of the pilots was locked out of the cockpit, would that cause the plane to crash??
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aaronjb

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Re: Air Crash
« Reply #14 on: 26 March 2015, 09:05:35 »

Not directly, but if the co-pilot was unconscious (or dead; heart attack at the wheel does happen) and the automatic flight control systems weren't keeping the plane level or weren't turned on for some reason.. and we know there was a safety advisory last year after a similar aircraft entered an uncontrolled descent at the command of the flight control computer and was only recovered after the pilots disconnected all electronic systems from the flight controls (something that, I believe, requires them to exit the cockpit)..

Quote
A senior French military official involved in the investigation described a “very smooth, very cool” conversation between the pilots during the early part of the flight from Barcelona, Spain, to Düsseldorf, Germany. Then the audio indicated that one of the pilots left the cockpit and could not re-enter.

“The guy outside is knocking lightly on the door, and there is no answer,” the investigator said. “And then he hits the door stronger, and no answer. There is never an answer.”

He said, “You can hear he is trying to smash the door down.”

I'm going to assume, here, that for the entire length of the descent the pilot knew something was wrong and was trying to fix it - I can only imagine his abject terror at being unable to re-enter the cockpit to regain control of the aircraft for eight minutes. Eight minutes knowing the end is inevitable and there's nothing you can do about it..
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05omegav6

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Re: Air Crash
« Reply #15 on: 26 March 2015, 09:09:12 »

Possibly if the co pilot had collapsed/had a panic attack or forgotten to/mis set the autopilot before trying to free the door from the inside.

With the throttles and flying controls left alone, the aircraft will naturally descend due to gravitational pull...
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Kevin Wood

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Re: Air Crash
« Reply #16 on: 26 March 2015, 09:41:54 »

With the throttles and flying controls left alone, the aircraft will naturally descend due to gravitational pull...

Most likely the aircraft would have been on autopilot anyway and would have continued the flight plan programmed into the FMC giving ample time to gain access to the cockpit by whatever means necessary. Uncontrolled dive due to a malfunction PLUS one pilot overcome WHILE the other pilot is out of the cockpit is just too many freak incidents at once, IMHO.

Suicidal pilot waits for his mate to go for a riddle before locking the door and flying into a mountain, on the other hand... :(

Word on PPRUNE yesterday was that the aircraft exceeded Vmo during the dive and, under all operating regimes other than being hand flown without automation, the automatic protection mechanisms would have kicked in and decelerated the aircraft.. yet the aircraft continued on the same heading it had been following in the cruise, so someone/thing was in (at least directional) control. Had a human of sound mind been at the controls, wouldn't he have just headed out to sea, or anywhere other than into a mountain range?

Not ruling out the airbus systems doing something daft, of course, they have a track record, but doing so at the exact instant that one pilot is out of the cockpit and the other keels over?
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Kevin Wood

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Re: Air Crash
« Reply #17 on: 26 March 2015, 09:50:39 »

.. and, as I understand it, the way a cockpit door works is that, to deny entrance to the flight deck by one of the flight crew, someone has to consciously block their attempts to enter from inside. IIRC, there was an incident a while back when both pilots somehow managed to lock themselves out of the flight deck, prompting this measure.
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LC0112G

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Re: Air Crash
« Reply #18 on: 26 March 2015, 11:28:07 »

On commercial aircraft, every flight safety critical component is at least dual redundant, and some are triple or even quad redundant. If any one channel of these redundant systems fails, then the other(s) can take over the safe operation of the aircraft. However, a failure of one flight safety critical system (almost) always results in an emergency being declared, and a swift landing at the nearest suitable airport.

IMO, pilots should be considered a flight safety critical component in the same way. There are two of them so that if one "fails", the other can take over the safe operation of the aircraft. However, currently one can leave the cockpit (for a waz or dump or whatever) at which point the dual redundancy has been compromised. There is no other system on the aircraft where you are allowed to compromise the dual redundant nature of a safety critical system in this way. 

The mechanicals of modern airliners are now so safe that such pilot "failures" are becoming statically important. Last years Ethiopian Airlines hijacking into Geneva was a pilot lockout event. MH447 might be too. Now this one possibly. There are others too if you look back - Silkair, EgyptAir etc.

The pilots in charge of hundreds of lives in the fragile aluminium tube behind them need to accept that they are a dual redundant component and behave accordingly. On short haul (sub 4hr) flights there should be no need to leave the cockpit. Go before you leave or you use a pee bag like fighter pilots have to. Longer than 4 hours and you need 3 type rated pilots in the cockpit.
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tunnie

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Re: Air Crash
« Reply #19 on: 26 March 2015, 11:45:30 »

Sent chill down my spine hearing this on the radio this morning, so it looks like either:

1) Pilot suicide. Set to land and just sit back, waiting for the end.
2) Co-Pilot had some kind of medical issue. (but then as Kev mentions, surely entry could be gained?)

Need to find the second black box, to find out if controls/actions where being taken when the other pilot was locked out. Which would indicate Co-Pilot knew what he was doing.
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LC0112G

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Re: Air Crash
« Reply #20 on: 26 March 2015, 11:47:36 »

Sent chill down my spine hearing this on the radio this morning, so it looks like either:

1) Pilot suicide. Set to land and just sit back, waiting for the end.
2) Co-Pilot had some kind of medical issue. (but then as Kev mentions, surely entry could be gained?)

Need to find the second black box, to find out if controls/actions where being taken when the other pilot was locked out. Which would indicate Co-Pilot knew what he was doing.

Except it's the Co-pilot that's reported to have been locked out.
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tunnie

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Re: Air Crash
« Reply #21 on: 26 March 2015, 11:53:46 »

Ah, article I read/heard suggested Co-Pilot.

So still same then, just roles reversed.

Can access be gained to the cockpit, if the Pilot was unconscious? (i guess not, as this would be a method for would-be hijackers too)
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tunnie

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Re: Air Crash
« Reply #22 on: 26 March 2015, 11:57:41 »

Latest update from SkyNews....

Quote
The co-pilot of a plane which crashed in the Alps activated the descent button and refused to open the cockpit door to the pilot.

http://news.sky.com/story/1453092/alps-co-pilot-crashed-deliberately-prosecutor
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LC0112G

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Re: Air Crash
« Reply #23 on: 26 March 2015, 11:58:28 »

Can access be gained to the cockpit, if the Pilot was unconscious? (i guess not, as this would be a method for would-be hijackers too)

Yes and no.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixEHV7c3VXs
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tunnie

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Re: Air Crash
« Reply #24 on: 26 March 2015, 12:07:55 »

Can access be gained to the cockpit, if the Pilot was unconscious? (i guess not, as this would be a method for would-be hijackers too)

Yes and no.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixEHV7c3VXs

So after entering the code, the Co-Pilot could over-ride the request and keep it locked?

That system does not look to account for Pilots wanting to crash  :(
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Kevin Wood

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Re: Air Crash
« Reply #25 on: 26 March 2015, 12:11:06 »

...

IMO, pilots should be considered a flight safety critical component in the same way. There are two of them so that if one "fails", the other can take over the safe operation of the aircraft. However, currently one can leave the cockpit (for a waz or dump or whatever) at which point the dual redundancy has been compromised. There is no other system on the aircraft where you are allowed to compromise the dual redundant nature of a safety critical system in this way. 

Yep, and for a system as "complex" as a pilot, dual redundancy is not really enough, given the subtle ways in which it could "fail". If it were an electronic system it would be triple redundant with voting... And if you are going to have voting, who gets to carry the big "voting stick"?

Quote
The pilots in charge of hundreds of lives in the fragile aluminium tube behind them need to accept that they are a dual redundant component and behave accordingly. On short haul (sub 4hr) flights there should be no need to leave the cockpit. Go before you leave or you use a pee bag like fighter pilots have to. Longer than 4 hours and you need 3 type rated pilots in the cockpit.

Yep, there are various arrangements for us glider pilots who often fly 5 hours + with no real prospect of leaving the flight deck! I think I'd be investing in some of this technology now if I were a CPL!

http://www.bgashop.co.uk/index.php?_a=viewCat&catId=5

Only dilemma is small, medium, large or "John Holmes". :-\
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Varche

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Re: Air Crash
« Reply #26 on: 26 March 2015, 12:12:45 »

The planes I have flown on (like Ryanair) have what looks like a keypad to gain entry. The steward "stands guard" while the pilot has a loo break. Is there a manual bolt on the cockpit side?

If it is a suicide , then it is wicked to kill 149 other innocents. Awful for the pilots family too.
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chrisgixer

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Re: Air Crash
« Reply #27 on: 26 March 2015, 12:30:55 »

Press conference today

Pilot had been locked out of the flight deck. Co pilot then deliberately crashed the plane.

....going by voice recordings from the black box flight recorder.
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Re: Air Crash
« Reply #28 on: 26 March 2015, 12:37:12 »


So after entering the code, the Co-Pilot could over-ride the request and keep it locked?

That system does not look to account for Pilots wanting to crash  :(

Pilot wanting to crash is, unfortunately, not something that can be 100% protected against regardless of how many pilots are in the cockpit. If the pilot in control (PIC) shortly after take off, or shortly before landing violently pushes the stick forward 100 feet above the ground, then the other pilot is unlikely to be able to take effective action before the plane impacts the ground.
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Re: Air Crash
« Reply #29 on: 26 March 2015, 12:41:35 »

Getting rid of the dual redundancy with pilot and co-pilot with either crew on a short haul flight being able to leave to go to the toilet, does rather compromise safety. I'm not sure how you fix: "I'm determined to commit suicide and for my 5 minutes of fame I'm taking all the crew and passengers with me". Which is truly frightening. :( :( :(

Long haul flights used to have 3 crew with pilot, co-pilot and flight engineer. However with the 'reduced workload'* with modern avionic systems the flight engineer is no more.

*In normal circumstances. when things go wrong then work load for the pilot and co-pilot, using these days tablet computers to look up in the flight manual on what to do, considerably raises both crew's workload while trying to fly a malfunctioning aircraft. Most crashes are a single problem compounded by mistakes by the pilot / co-pilot where stress / workload exceeds instant mental capacity.
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Re: Air Crash
« Reply #30 on: 26 March 2015, 12:48:46 »

American Airlines are said to have reviwed procedures in relation to this.

They have a second pilot in a crew of three. Pilot takes a comfort break. Tother pilot takes the pilots seat. There by reducing the risk of a suicidal loan individual left unattended on the flight deck.

« Last Edit: 26 March 2015, 12:58:16 by chrisgixer »
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Re: Air Crash
« Reply #31 on: 26 March 2015, 13:03:39 »

....voice recording has evidence of the co pilot breathing normally. There is audible banging on the flight deck door, which gets progressively louder, to the point they are clearly trying to break the door down. Screams can be heard, as you can imagine...

Horrific.
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aaronjb

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Re: Air Crash
« Reply #32 on: 26 March 2015, 13:28:19 »

Yeah, watched the conference on the news earlier .. although the investigation is still underway the prosecutors are basically saying the co-pilot waited for the pilot to leave the flight deck, locked the door, manually set the desired descent profile, sat back and waited calmly for the end :-\
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The Sheriff

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Re: Air Crash
« Reply #33 on: 26 March 2015, 15:48:56 »

American Airlines are said to have reviwed procedures in relation to this.

They have a second pilot in a crew of three. Pilot takes a comfort break. Tother pilot takes the pilots seat. There by reducing the risk of a suicidal loan individual left unattended on the flight deck.
What's a suicidal loan individual? Someone who threatens to top himself if you don't borrow money from him?  ;D
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05omegav6

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Re: Air Crash
« Reply #34 on: 26 March 2015, 16:05:44 »

It doesn't sound like it's the case, but those doors can jam, and following 9/11 don't be too surprised to find that they might only open outwards :-\
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Re: Air Crash
« Reply #35 on: 26 March 2015, 16:13:08 »

Selfish idiot could have jumped off a bridge if he wanted to commit suicide >:(
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05omegav6

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Re: Air Crash
« Reply #36 on: 26 March 2015, 16:31:30 »

Selfish idiot could have jumped off a bridge if he wanted to commit suicide >:(
There's probably a glib reply to that...

But you're not the first person to pick up on that point :-X
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