Topic: MV6 - who says V6 Head Gaskets never fail?! (Read 6681 times)

JamesV6CDX · « **on:** 31 May 2009, 00:01:13 »

Baz.... I found the leak mate

I shoud say - I started by stripping out the inlet so I could see the valley. Pressured the system - valley bone dry. No drips from HBV area, all pipework dry - yet coolant was piddling down the passenger side of the bellhousing like niagra falls.

Removed the cat, got a mirror up there, and could clearly see it coming from the rear of the 2-4-6 head gasket...

So the re-build commences! :

JamesV6CDX · « **Reply #1 on:** 31 May 2009, 00:03:50 »

Currently feel like poo, so probably won't get anymore done until next weekend now - apart from maybe some head fettling at home..

JamesV6CDX · « **Reply #2 on:** 31 May 2009, 00:26:14 »

Needless to say, while it's at this stage, I will be doing both HGs.... crazy not to while 1-3-5 is so accessible.

1-3-5 gasket, was equally as bad - although not leaking externally like 2-4-6.

Thankfully no damage to the heads or the block - no corrosion or pitting to be seen.

I think I may have found a few potentials for the lambda issue too.

Firstly, the "three" earths, on the rear of the 2-4-6 head, had all had their ends cut off, all twisted together, and crimped into one ring connector - so someone has bodged that, for reasons totally unknown! One of them was totally shileded - so not doing it's job at all.

There is a pattern cat on the 1-3-5 bank, and it sounds nasty - free to a good home, if anyone wants it.... it will be replaced with a known good GM item

The O2 sensors don't look geniune - they have the right connectors, however, I can't see any GM markings on them - so this may also be the issue - Omega doesn't like pattern lambdas....

Oh - and someone had put the drivers side camcover gasket on with a pattern gasket, and a load of bathroom sealant

Goes to show, when there is one issue - best just to do the whole lot in one hit...

markey mark · « **Reply #3 on:** 31 May 2009, 00:29:35 »

james if it has had silicone on cam cover whip the sump off and clean the pick up pipe bud !

last one i did had loads of silicone in it and a couple of cam cover o rings !!

JamesV6CDX · « **Reply #4 on:** 31 May 2009, 00:30:29 »

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james if it has had silicone on cam cover whip the sump off and clean the pick up pipe bud ! last one i did had loads of silicone in it and a couple of cam cover o rings !!

Yep - certainly will do Mate! Going to clean out the bottom of the sump anyhooo...

markey mark · « **Reply #5 on:** 31 May 2009, 00:31:45 »

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james if it has had silicone on cam cover whip the sump off and clean the pick up pipe bud ! last one i did had loads of silicone in it and a couple of cam cover o rings !!

Yep - certainly will do Mate! Going to clean out the bottom of the sump anyhooo...

happy days ! looks like lack of anti freeze on them gaskets ! i would check oil cooler as well matey !

JamesV6CDX · « **Reply #6 on:** 31 May 2009, 00:33:38 »

Ho yes - cooler is coming out for inspection and re-seal at min, Markey

If it's stainless, and looks OK - any need to replace it?

markey mark · « **Reply #7 on:** 31 May 2009, 00:35:43 »

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Ho yes - cooler is coming out for inspection and re-seal at min, Markey

If it's stainless, and looks OK - any need to replace it?

oh my days thats a lot of silicone !! naw if its a stainless one it will be fine but separate the cooler from plate and give it a good clean

steverubberduck · « **Reply #8 on:** 31 May 2009, 09:25:54 »

It's nice to see that the work is being done properly, not cutting any corners like it seems it has been

Keep up the good work

JamesV6CDX · « **Reply #9 on:** 31 May 2009, 15:48:43 »

I can only imagine that - it wasn't leaking when running - because the head was expanding just enough to stop it..... it was piddling it out when stopped!

Also surprised at the outcome, because with a HG leak, I'd expect something or nothing, not an "intermittent" leak like this one.

Ah well. Manifolds now removed from heads, I'll start stripping the valves out shortly

JamesV6CDX · « **Reply #10 on:** 31 May 2009, 18:44:27 »

The 2-4-6 head now has all valves and stem seals removed - now for a good clean, and rebuild:

Kevin Wood · « **Reply #11 on:** 31 May 2009, 18:57:56 »

With that much silicone I would drop the sump and check the oil pickup is clear.

Bear in mind it can kill lambda sensors too.

Kevin

Andy B · « **Reply #12 on:** 31 May 2009, 19:00:58 »

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The 2-4-6 head now has all valves and stem seals removed - now for a good clean, and rebuild:

......

Have you numbered all your valve lifters?

JamesV6CDX · « **Reply #13 on:** 31 May 2009, 19:01:37 »

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With that much silicone I would drop the sump and check the oil pickup is clear.

Yep - I sure will, before it's run again!

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Bear in mind it can kill lambda sensors too.

Kevin

If it gets into the combustion chambers?

JamesV6CDX · « **Reply #14 on:** 31 May 2009, 19:02:11 »

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The 2-4-6 head now has all valves and stem seals removed - now for a good clean, and rebuild:

......

Have you numbered all your valve lifters?

Shaddap you - everything is numbered

Andy B · « **Reply #15 on:** 31 May 2009, 19:07:52 »

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.....
Shaddap you - everything is numbered

I was only trying to be helpfull .....

JamesV6CDX · « **Reply #16 on:** 31 May 2009, 19:10:18 »

I am amazed the manifolds weren't blowing actually - this car had cheap nasty pattern, composite exhaust manifold gaskets.

Baz has looked after the car well I have no doubt, but someone in previous ownership has certainly cut a few corners

TheBoy · « **Reply #17 on:** 31 May 2009, 19:51:05 »

Know what garage has done that work? One to avoid!

Kevin Wood · « **Reply #18 on:** 31 May 2009, 20:13:49 »

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With that much silicone I would drop the sump and check the oil pickup is clear.

Yep - I sure will, before it's run again!

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Bear in mind it can kill lambda sensors too.

Kevin

If it gets into the combustion chambers?

It gives off fumes while curing, which may end up in the crank case - or will, in the case of some cowboy plastering it with that much sealant. Then, when engine is run, it is drawn through the breathers, burnt and contaminates the lambdas on the way out.

Of course, you can get sensor safe RTV sealant - like the VX black stuff, but that stuff looks like it came from the back of a bathroom fitter's van.

The guy clearly didn't have much faith in the rubber seals.

Kevin

BazMV6 · « **Reply #19 on:** 31 May 2009, 20:30:36 »

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Baz has looked after the car well I have no doubt, but someone in previous ownership has certainly cut a few corners

Thanks for the vote of confidence.

But the car had already done 111k when I picked her up - so no telling how she was looked after in a previous life... :-/

Very interesting to see the photos. I'm going to be very jealous when she's all back together and purring nicely... 8-)

JamesV6CDX · « **Reply #20 on:** 31 May 2009, 20:51:16 »

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The guy clearly didn't have much faith in the rubber seals.

Kevin

Fair play though - that pattern gasket lasted 40k miles

JamesV6CDX · « **Reply #21 on:** 01 June 2009, 20:42:05 »

Update:

Both heads stripped, all valves and stem seals removed, and heads cleaned.

I'm now reassembling the 2-4-6 head - 7 stem seals and valves refitted, so far....

JamesV6CDX · « **Reply #22 on:** 01 June 2009, 20:46:22 »

Note the corrosion on the left hand of the picture..... note this is perfectly smooth etc, but I can't get it shiny....

markey mark · « **Reply #23 on:** 01 June 2009, 21:47:02 »

i would be tempted to have them skimmed or faced up at least james

TheBoy · « **Reply #24 on:** 01 June 2009, 21:52:07 »

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i would be tempted to have them skimmed or faced up at least james

skimming is issue due to coolant bridge etc

markey mark · « **Reply #25 on:** 01 June 2009, 21:54:07 »

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i would be tempted to have them skimmed or faced up at least james
skimming is issue due to coolant bridge etc

no mate it is not have skimmed heads on mine no probs at all only needs a small amount taking off !

albitz · « **Reply #26 on:** 01 June 2009, 21:59:12 »

Looks like its coming along nicely, should be for sale by the end of June?

JamesV6CDX · « **Reply #27 on:** 01 June 2009, 23:59:20 »

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Looks like its coming along nicely, should be for sale by the end of June?

No chance - she's mine

Markey - out of interest, why would you skim? No distortion or serious pitting etc - I guess after 150k miles, you won't be able to see your face in it? :-/

hotel21 · « **Reply #28 on:** 02 June 2009, 00:08:18 »

Was the area of failure the same as the area of dark grey? If yes, then a very very light skim may suffice but remember the coolant bridge if the engine shop gets too keen. The head gasket is also designed to take up very minor imperfections by its very design...

Personally, if MDTM says dont skim then I wouldn't unless really neccessary....

JamesV6CDX · « **Reply #29 on:** 02 June 2009, 00:11:20 »

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Was the area of failure the same as the area of dark grey? If yes, then a very very light skim may suffice but remember the coolant bridge if the engine shop gets too keen. The head gasket is also designed to take up very minor imperfections by its very design...

Personally, if MDTM says dont skim then I wouldn't unless really neccessary....

Hiya B

The failure area was indeed at the rear passenger corner of HG - which is encompassed by the darker coloured area.

It feels totally smooth and I can't detect any distortion. I feel the leak was due to lack of antifreeze perishing the composite gasket over time.... and personally not sure a skim is needed

That said - I welcome all opinions on the subject

Marks DTM Calib · « **Reply #30 on:** 02 June 2009, 08:18:57 »

No need to skim but, you can see the corrosion damage around the edge of the coolant ways across the whole head.

The place on the left where its worse is actually between 2 water ways.

The most I might do is put a wipe of the green snot in that area (a technique used by Vx at the factory).

This is a pic of Mick Dundees which has had the coolant serviced very well on 100K + miles.

Note how much better the coolant ways are.

Just goes to show (yet again) the importance of proper servicing.

Marks DTM Calib · « **Reply #31 on:** 02 June 2009, 08:20:47 »

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Was the area of failure the same as the area of dark grey? If yes, then a very very light skim may suffice but remember the coolant bridge if the engine shop gets too keen. The head gasket is also designed to take up very minor imperfections by its very design...

Personally, if MDTM says dont skim then I wouldn't unless really neccessary....

Indeed, the major benefit of a composite gasket and why modern metal layer gaskets have a polymer coat to.

markey mark · « **Reply #32 on:** 02 June 2009, 09:55:23 »

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Looks like its coming along nicely, should be for sale by the end of June?

No chance - she's mine

Markey - out of interest, why would you skim? No distortion or serious pitting etc - I guess after 150k miles, you won't be able to see your face in it? :-/

just so its proper flat and were that dark patch is i wouldnt want to risk it will all the other work your doing james

Kevin Wood · « **Reply #33 on:** 02 June 2009, 11:41:41 »

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Looks like its coming along nicely, should be for sale by the end of June?

No chance - she's mine

Markey - out of interest, why would you skim? No distortion or serious pitting etc - I guess after 150k miles, you won't be able to see your face in it? :-/

Here we go again!

... I bet you a Chicken Jalfrezi, Pilau Rice and a Garlic Naan oh, and a pint of Kingfisher that....

kevin

Martin_1962 · « **Reply #34 on:** 02 June 2009, 13:19:06 »

OK James will sell in August

Kevin Wood · « **Reply #35 on:** 02 June 2009, 13:34:51 »

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OK James will sell in August

Keeping this one long-term, you reckon?

Martin_1962 · « **Reply #36 on:** 02 June 2009, 14:08:13 »

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OK James will sell in August

Keeping this one long-term, you reckon?

He has said that about at least 3 cars since I have known him, started with the GLS 2.0 trying to be an Elite, and then the STMO0123 2.5 CDX Facelift with LPG now owned by Phate123.

Mind you I did get 2 or 3 merged into one

Kevin Wood · « **Reply #37 on:** 02 June 2009, 14:17:23 »

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OK James will sell in August

Keeping this one long-term, you reckon?

He has said that about at least 3 cars since I have known him, started with the GLS 2.0 trying to be an Elite, and then the STMO0123 2.5 CDX Facelift with LPG now owned by Phate123.

Mind you I did get 2 or 3 merged into one

Then there was the 2.0 LPG'd Estate, facelift 3.0 Elite, Range Rover, Peugeot and probably a few more...

JamesV6CDX · « **Reply #38 on:** 02 June 2009, 17:03:36 »

I get bored when I run out of things to fix!

Varche · « **Reply #39 on:** 02 June 2009, 18:30:38 »

Right when you have fixed everything on this car you can swap it for mine (plus 200euros negotiable) and then you need never buy another car! (and it has just had the cambelt changed).

Don't hang around though as the offer won't be there for ever.

El varche

JamesV6CDX · « **Reply #40 on:** 03 June 2009, 22:46:53 »

Taking a break - as interest faded a bit tonight.

Fitted all the inlet valves and seals in the 246 head - only to find a stem seal spring on the bench. So - had to strip them out again - and found a stem seal with a spring missing.

Ho hum - changed that seal - all done

2-4-6 head is rebuild, apart from the manifold - starting on 1-3-5 head tomorrow night.

Hope to have them ready to fit, at the weekend...

These stem seals, from autovaux - are black - is that OK? They usually are green, IME...

Andy B · « **Reply #41 on:** 03 June 2009, 22:51:40 »

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......
Fitted all the inlet valves and seals in the 246 head - only to find a stem seal spring on the bench. So - had to strip them out again - and found a stem seal with a spring missing.
.......

Seems like a recurring theme!

JamesV6CDX · « **Reply #42 on:** 03 June 2009, 22:54:15 »

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Quote
......
Fitted all the inlet valves and seals in the 246 head - only to find a stem seal spring on the bench. So - had to strip them out again - and found a stem seal with a spring missing.
.......

Seems like a recurring theme!

At least I noticed it before I fitted the beggar to the car

Andy B · « **Reply #43 on:** 03 June 2009, 23:03:40 »

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Quote
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......
Fitted all the inlet valves and seals in the 246 head - only to find a stem seal spring on the bench. So - had to strip them out again - and found a stem seal with a spring missing.
.......

Seems like a recurring theme!

At least I noticed it before I fitted the beggar to the car

Not a mistake you'll ever do again I think.

JamesV6CDX · « **Reply #44 on:** 03 June 2009, 23:10:29 »

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Quote
Quote
Quote
......
Fitted all the inlet valves and seals in the 246 head - only to find a stem seal spring on the bench. So - had to strip them out again - and found a stem seal with a spring missing.
.......

Seems like a recurring theme!

At least I noticed it before I fitted the beggar to the car

Not a mistake you'll ever do again I think.

Do you have any idea how many time I've counted these followers?

Andy B · « **Reply #45 on:** 03 June 2009, 23:15:21 »

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Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
......
Fitted all the inlet valves and seals in the 246 head - only to find a stem seal spring on the bench. So - had to strip them out again - and found a stem seal with a spring missing.
.......

Seems like a recurring theme!

At least I noticed it before I fitted the beggar to the car

Not a mistake you'll ever do again I think.

Do you have any idea how many time I've counted these followers?

When I did the head on my Senator I had a divided tray that I numbered up to 24 for all the valves collets etc

JamesV6CDX · « **Reply #46 on:** 03 June 2009, 23:22:55 »

valves are kept in order, the springs, washers etc, are all in a big tin

Andy B · « **Reply #47 on:** 03 June 2009, 23:29:01 »

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valves are kept in order, the springs, washers etc, are all in a big tin

I know it doesn't make any odd with springs etc, but I like to put stuff back from where it came, often even down to bolts.

JamesV6CDX · « **Reply #48 on:** 04 June 2009, 20:09:28 »

1-3-5 head, now has all its exhaust valves refitted, so half rebuilt. I'll do the inlet valves tomorrow night - and then fit the manifolds - which will be done with new studs and nuts from VX

TheBoy · « **Reply #49 on:** 04 June 2009, 20:59:43 »

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Looks like its coming along nicely, should be for sale by the end of June?

No chance - she's mine

Markey - out of interest, why would you skim? No distortion or serious pitting etc - I guess after 150k miles, you won't be able to see your face in it? :-/

Here we go again! ... I bet you a Chicken Jalfrezi, Pilau Rice and a Garlic Naan oh, and a pint of Kingfisher that....

kevin

He still owes me a beer and a curry over that previous Omega he had

JamesV6CDX · « **Reply #50 on:** 04 June 2009, 21:14:12 »

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Quote
Quote
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Looks like its coming along nicely, should be for sale by the end of June?

No chance - she's mine

Markey - out of interest, why would you skim? No distortion or serious pitting etc - I guess after 150k miles, you won't be able to see your face in it? :-/

Here we go again! ... I bet you a Chicken Jalfrezi, Pilau Rice and a Garlic Naan oh, and a pint of Kingfisher that....

kevin
He still owes me a beer and a curry over that previous Omega he had

I keep asking you to say when you're free

JamesV6CDX · « **Reply #51 on:** 09 June 2009, 22:09:30 »

Righto - back on topic

The parts how now all arrived. Tomorrow night I will clean and fit the exhaust manifolds, using all new studs and nuts just in case...

Friday afternoon, I am going to take out the oil cooler, clean everything up, and re-fit and re-seal it - and then Saturday it's assembly day.

Chances are it will spill into Sunday, as I've no intention at all of rushing it.... and I also have to fit a complete new exhaust incl cats..

Progress to follow

News:

Author Topic: MV6 - who says V6 Head Gaskets never fail?! (Read 6681 times)

albitz

Martin_1962

Martin_1962