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Author Topic: Tram lining  (Read 6062 times)

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feeutfo

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Tram lining
« on: 10 March 2013, 21:52:06 »

Cause.

Discuss. But bear in mind recent discussions, or at least try.

Its not the;
Car
Set up
Wheels
Size of tyres

We've got that far.

Where to look next?



If you don't agree with the above fine. But take the conversation from that point on please. :)
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cem_devecioglu

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Re: Tram lining
« Reply #1 on: 10 March 2013, 22:00:30 »

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SMD

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Re: Tram lining
« Reply #2 on: 10 March 2013, 22:08:11 »

I typed a reply for the other thread, only that find that it had been locked. Its just a little history on the car to shed light on what may cause tramlining. Can I post it here?

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feeutfo

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Re: Tram lining
« Reply #3 on: 10 March 2013, 22:17:07 »

May as well I guess. :)
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Re: Tram lining
« Reply #4 on: 10 March 2013, 22:27:30 »

Probably not much use Chris, But I can only report on my own experiences.

When I first got my 3.2 elite estate, it tramlined like a pig!  I poly'd the front wishbone bushes and replaced the rear donuts (following your advice at the Hampshire meet).  Had full setup at WiM, and then fitted new front tyres (rears were already nearly new), so had 4 x Avon ZV5's at 235/45R17 XL.  After this lot the car went straight as an arrow.  :y

I have since upgraded to 18" wheels and am now running 4 x Ovation VI-388 235/40R18 95W XL tyres.  These are by no means the most expensive tyres, but were recommended to me by the guy I've been getting my tyres from for 20 years.

I doubt the my driving style would ever push these tyres to limits that yours would, and I am still running standard elite suspension at the moment, but I have been genuinely impressed by these tyres.  There is no hint of tramlining.  Grip levels are good in wet and dry conditions.  Braking performance is good enough not to trouble the ABS.  And so far, they seem to be wearing very well indeed.

I think we all agree that Omega's are a very fussy car when it comes to tyres, but I can't help wonder if there are other options open to us, without having to resort to the big name brands. 

I was going to post this in another tread, but it got locked before I finished typing it.

Anyway, I not out to offend anyone.  Just my humble opinion and personal experiences.  :y
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Re: Tram lining
« Reply #5 on: 10 March 2013, 22:34:21 »

Cause.

Discuss. But bear in mind recent discussions, or at least try.

Its not the;
Car
Set up
Wheels
Size of tyres

We've got that far.

Where to look next?



If you don't agree with the above fine. But take the conversation from that point on please. :)

If it's none of the above then I see why you think tyres.

The only thing you can do at that point is to have complete sets of tyres on identical rims, sufficiently run in to remove the release compound, tested on the same car, by the same driver... unfortunately the testing will still have issues because the temperature of the road surface will change throughout the testing.

You seem sure but can you prove categoricaly that one tyre isn't hiding an issue that another is highlighting? Therefore the issue isn't totally down to tyres.
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Re: Tram lining
« Reply #6 on: 10 March 2013, 22:39:45 »

Quote from the other thread

So what are the exact differences between Entwoods car and SMDs  :-\
I'm hoping his pressure gauge is wonky.

Could be other faults in the car. Wishbone bush could have failed vary early. Top mounts possible. Loose steering box bolts possible. Play in the box. Could be a number of things, including an oddity with the tyres as well.
I need to drive it myself, then maybe fit my wheels., and see where the fault goes. Swapping wheels is easiest way to discount faults on the car. As we've done before.

re wonky gauge. I will try to buy a tyre gauge from Halfords tomorrow, maybe the one you linked to a few pages back and will post back the findings within the next few days.

Had the car on the WIM ramps yesterday, Tony checked the top mounts (if my memory serves me rightly), I'm no engineer like cem as you can tell :P but he checked for play on components that would cause tramlining and they were fine. The geo settings were still the same. In his opinion it could be collective play on all the suspension components that could be the issue. So these components may be worn but not so much that they need replacing. 

The car itself is in great condition for its age, the members who have seen it will agree, and is low mileage. Its had one previous owner from new for 9 years who has looked after it extremely well. There was a second owner who owned the car for two months and I'm the third. It came with a main dealer service history but there is no evidence that any suspension work was carried in those years. The wishbones and donunts Chris removed were original and I suspect everything else might be too. In contrast, Entwoods car seems to have gone through a few parts.

My car was involved in a prang last summer, when it was rear ended whilst parked. I didn't witness this but the offending vehicle was turning right into a forcourt so impact would have been around 10-15mph max. The only apparant damage was the bumper. Not sure if this is significant.

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Re: Tram lining
« Reply #7 on: 10 March 2013, 22:41:24 »

None of ours tramline :)
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Re: Tram lining
« Reply #8 on: 10 March 2013, 22:41:37 »

Im not reading 9 pages +.

Just something to consider.

Checked the camber on a s type jag the other day and was surprised to find that the setting differ from n/s to o/s.

One side .2, the other .8.
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Re: Tram lining
« Reply #9 on: 10 March 2013, 22:45:17 »

yep - its tyres
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Re: Tram lining
« Reply #10 on: 10 March 2013, 22:55:56 »

i never had a problem with tramlining on the coopers i used
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feeutfo

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Re: Tram lining
« Reply #11 on: 10 March 2013, 22:57:57 »

yep - its tyres
So how do we nail down exactly what it is about tyres that cause it...?

Or, how do we know which ones to buy, that don't do it...?
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Re: Tram lining
« Reply #12 on: 10 March 2013, 23:01:49 »

dosent allot depend on the style of driving  and the compound that makes up the tyre
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Re: Tram lining
« Reply #13 on: 10 March 2013, 23:01:58 »

Actually, no i don't think its the tyres....

to refine, my opinion is:-

235s are way too wide for a car with macpherson strut front suspension and a rear-mounted steering box. I'd say that all cars shod thus are only a smidging away from tranlining hell - all it takes is some small irregularity in the setup or a difference in one tyre make vs another to make all the difference.
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05omegav6

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Re: Tram lining
« Reply #14 on: 10 March 2013, 23:03:30 »

The tyre test aspect of the proposed airfield meet needs to be organised in such a way that all the tyres presented are tested on all the cars presented to give an accurate impression of their behaviour on any given suspension set up :y

Obviously, any cars used will need to have been set up just before the test, ideally at WIM the day before :-\
« Last Edit: 10 March 2013, 23:05:35 by ex taxi al »
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Re: Tram lining
« Reply #15 on: 10 March 2013, 23:04:01 »

yep - its tyres
So how do we nail down exactly what it is about tyres that cause it...?

Or, how do we know which ones to buy, that don't do it...?

we don't, unfortunately.

Out of the ten or so major design differences between tyre a and tyre b, we know maybe only two or three, so we can't answer the question I'm afraid.
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Re: Tram lining
« Reply #16 on: 10 March 2013, 23:05:14 »

The tyre test aspect of the proposed airfield meet needs to be organised in such a way that all the tyres presented are tested on all the cars presented to give an accurate impression of their behaviour on any given suspension set up :y

actually, it would be well worth trying Chris's car on a different set of tyres.

also maybe on some 195/15s, too
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feeutfo

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Re: Tram lining
« Reply #17 on: 10 March 2013, 23:15:00 »

The tyre test aspect of the proposed airfield meet needs to be organised in such a way that all the tyres presented are tested on all the cars presented to give an accurate impression of their behaviour on any given suspension set up :y

actually, it would be well worth trying Chris's car on a different set of tyres.

also maybe on some 195/15s, too

Swapping with my sc3 mo shod sport stars would be interesting. 265 35 18 rear and 245 40 18 front.
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Re: Tram lining
« Reply #18 on: 10 March 2013, 23:39:22 »

Ok Here goes  :) probably get told off but hey ho ;D I haven't had any probs with mine tramlining then again only had it since september  8) It is a PFL 3.2 elite auto I have different tyres on it  :o the fronts are Event WL905 225/45/17 the backs are nearside Arrowspeed N1000 235/45/17 and offside Hifly HF805 235/45/17  ::) before these it had 235/45/17  :y all round conti sc3 on front and conti sport contact on rear, these were on the car when I got it, I have replaced with the Events/Arrowspeed/Hifly, because I got a second set of wheels and the tyres on them were better than the ones that came with the car.  8) So even with all the different tyres I have had NO tramlining. ;D :y
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05omegav6

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Re: Tram lining
« Reply #19 on: 11 March 2013, 00:36:14 »

What wheels are they on? 225/45/17 isn't an Omega size :-\
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Re: Tram lining
« Reply #20 on: 11 March 2013, 06:50:44 »

If you want to cure tramlining, buy an Insignia :y
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Re: Tram lining
« Reply #21 on: 11 March 2013, 08:56:02 »

OK, I'll post the same warnings here - I didn't see this one until I'd reopened the other...



There are some house rules, and anyone not abiding by them will see (possibly) temporary bans.

I shouldn't have to spell it out, we all understand the behaviour expected, but:

No bickering, fighting or general unpleasantness, and no comments purely to stir someone else. It will not be tolerated at all  >:(

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cem_devecioglu

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Re: Tram lining
« Reply #22 on: 11 March 2013, 09:27:35 »

Actually, no i don't think its the tyres....

to refine, my opinion is:-

235s are way too wide for a car with macpherson strut front suspension and a rear-mounted steering box. I'd say that all cars shod thus are only a smidging away from tranlining hell - all it takes is some small irregularity in the setup or a difference in one tyre make vs another to make all the difference.

agreed.. :y :y :y
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Re: Tram lining
« Reply #23 on: 11 March 2013, 09:29:39 »

What wheels are they on? 225/45/17 isn't an Omega size :-\

That size is for a vectra or signum
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Re: Tram lining
« Reply #24 on: 11 March 2013, 09:52:39 »

Actually, no i don't think its the tyres....

to refine, my opinion is:-

235s are way too wide for a car with macpherson strut front suspension and a rear-mounted steering box. I'd say that all cars shod thus are only a smidging away from tranlining hell - all it takes is some small irregularity in the setup or a difference in one tyre make vs another to make all the difference.

agreed.. :y :y :y
Thats coming across as not adding anything.

GM decided to fit 235/45/17 as standard, and 235/40/18 as an option, so saying use non-standard sizes (which would invalidate most UK insurances) is not an option. Thats where we are.

We know that some 235/45/17 and 235/40/18 tramline badly, and that some 245/40/18 do not.

We need to understand why. To be clear, Google is not our friend here. We are on our own. We need to resolve this ourselves.
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Lizzie_Zoom

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Re: Tram lining
« Reply #25 on: 11 March 2013, 09:53:58 »

The only time I encounter tram lining is on certain roads where HGVs have created two distinct troughs in the surface of the tarmac.

Therefore I believe, as I have encountered this with different cars and various tyres, that damaged road surfaces cause tram lining. ;) ;)
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cem_devecioglu

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Re: Tram lining
« Reply #26 on: 11 March 2013, 09:54:21 »

Actually, no i don't think its the tyres....

to refine, my opinion is:-

235s are way too wide for a car with macpherson strut front suspension and a rear-mounted steering box. I'd say that all cars shod thus are only a smidging away from tranlining hell - all it takes is some small irregularity in the setup or a difference in one tyre make vs another to make all the difference.

agreed.. :y :y :y
Thats coming across as not adding anything.

GM decided to fit 235/45/17 as standard, and 235/40/18 as an option, so saying use non-standard sizes (which would invalidate most UK insurances) is not an option. Thats where we are.

We know that some 235/45/17 and 235/40/18 tramline badly, and that some 245/40/18 do not.

We need to understand why. To be clear, Google is not our friend here. We are on our own. We need to resolve this ourselves.

why ? this car have even 15 wheel sizes given in handbook ???
 
plus : banning google wont solve any problem..  you cant know everything :) :y
« Last Edit: 11 March 2013, 09:57:45 by cem »
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Re: Tram lining
« Reply #27 on: 11 March 2013, 10:20:13 »


why ? this car have even 15 wheel sizes given in handbook ???
 
plus : banning google wont solve any problem..  you cant know everything :) :y
Its what the car came with. The handbook mentions winter tyres, but until this winter, fitting winter tyres was liable to invalidate your insurance. Even now, you need to double check with your insurer, and possibly pay an amendment fee if you put on winters. Accept thats the way UK insurance works.

Google has its uses. But, in the case of Omegas, its bringing back nothing relevent or useful, and completely contradictory to what some of us are experiencing. Thus any internet search is only relevent if its on an Omega.  OOF is in a good position to, even if we don't understand why, get a list of what works, and what doesn't, on Omegas. Whilst it won't be perfect, if it prevents somebody else spending £700 on tyres that are, frankly, worse than £200 budget ones, then its worth it. IMHO anyway.  So lets base this on Omega facts, not what I heard down the pub, or read on the Internet about how good SC5s are on a Golf.
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Re: Tram lining
« Reply #28 on: 11 March 2013, 10:23:21 »

The only time I encounter tram lining is on certain roads where HGVs have created two distinct troughs in the surface of the tarmac.

Therefore I believe, as I have encountered this with different cars and various tyres, that damaged road surfaces cause tram lining. ;) ;)
Yes, badly rutted roads will cause the car to follow the ruts, and pull about as you go in them, and out of them. Thats accepted as normal.

We are talking about tyres (we've proved it to tyres), tramlining on unrutted roads, such as the outside 2 lanes of the M40 (the inside lane isn't bad on the M40 either), so much so, that you daren't look in the mirrors for more than the quickest glance, else you will be over the white lines.
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Re: Tram lining
« Reply #29 on: 11 March 2013, 10:35:20 »

The only time I encounter tram lining is on certain roads where HGVs have created two distinct troughs in the surface of the tarmac.

Therefore I believe, as I have encountered this with different cars and various tyres, that damaged road surfaces cause tram lining. ;) ;)
Yes, badly rutted roads will cause the car to follow the ruts, and pull about as you go in them, and out of them. Thats accepted as normal.

We are talking about tyres (we've proved it to tyres), tramlining on unrutted roads, such as the outside 2 lanes of the M40 (the inside lane isn't bad on the M40 either), so much so, that you daren't look in the mirrors for more than the quickest glance, else you will be over the white lines.

Are you talking about tramlining or wanderlust?

There's a section of road near to where I live, the Omega (2.6) was all over the place negotiating it, where as both the Astra and Insignia are rock solid over the same stretch.

The 2.2 was also rock solid over the same stretch, but on motorways, seemed to have wanderlust.
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Re: Tram lining
« Reply #30 on: 11 March 2013, 10:39:37 »

You are the only person I've ever heard talk about wanderlust.

So I'll define my definition of tramlining - an inability to go in a straight line without constant, unpredictable corrections applied. Yes, that can be caused by rutted road surfaces, and I think we all accept that as normal.
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Re: Tram lining
« Reply #31 on: 11 March 2013, 10:43:02 »

The only time I encounter tram lining is on certain roads where HGVs have created two distinct troughs in the surface of the tarmac.

Therefore I believe, as I have encountered this with different cars and various tyres, that damaged road surfaces cause tram lining. ;) ;)
Yes, badly rutted roads will cause the car to follow the ruts, and pull about as you go in them, and out of them. Thats accepted as normal.

We are talking about tyres (we've proved it to tyres), tramlining on unrutted roads, such as the outside 2 lanes of the M40 (the inside lane isn't bad on the M40 either), so much so, that you daren't look in the mirrors for more than the quickest glance, else you will be over the white lines.

Are you talking about tramlining or wanderlust?

There's a section of road near to where I live, the Omega (2.6) was all over the place negotiating it, where as both the Astra and Insignia are rock solid over the same stretch.

The 2.2 was also rock solid over the same stretch, but on motorways, seemed to have wanderlust.

Thinking similar thoughts here .. "tramlining" as I always understood it, is the tendency for the wheels to want to follow the ruts in the roads, or once set in a certain direction to want to continue that way (once the self centering has done its thing) ... in other words to follow a path like a "tram" does.

Many of the arguments in the several threads on the subject seem to talk about the car moving on its own, so much so (above) that you dare not take your eyes off the road ahead as you must continually make steering corrections.

When Chris drove mine down his "known" road he commented that it only needed one "correction" which coincided with a strong gust of wind, and he declared himself "happy" with the setup.

I just hope we are not talking about two totally different things under the one word, and confusing the issue somewhat !!

Confused of wiltshire :)
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Re: Tram lining
« Reply #32 on: 11 March 2013, 10:44:24 »

You are the only person I've ever heard talk about wanderlust.

So I'll define my definition of tramlining - an inability to go in a straight line without constant, unpredictable corrections applied. Yes, that can be caused by rutted road surfaces, and I think we all accept that as normal.

I define tramlining as caused by rutted road surfaces, wanderlust as the inability to go in a straight line without constant corrections of the steering on smooth, un-rutted surfaces.

In my above definition, the 2.6 suffered from tramlining, and not wanderlust.

The 2.2 suffered from wanderlust, but not tramlining.
« Last Edit: 11 March 2013, 10:46:52 by Auto Addict »
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scottambrose

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Re: Tram lining
« Reply #33 on: 11 March 2013, 10:51:54 »

i cured my bad tramlining with new tyres. a totally different ride now. no wandering to the curb anymore
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Re: Tram lining
« Reply #34 on: 11 March 2013, 10:52:02 »

The only time I encounter tram lining is on certain roads where HGVs have created two distinct troughs in the surface of the tarmac.

Therefore I believe, as I have encountered this with different cars and various tyres, that damaged road surfaces cause tram lining. ;) ;)
Yes, badly rutted roads will cause the car to follow the ruts, and pull about as you go in them, and out of them. Thats accepted as normal.

We are talking about tyres (we've proved it to tyres), tramlining on unrutted roads, such as the outside 2 lanes of the M40 (the inside lane isn't bad on the M40 either), so much so, that you daren't look in the mirrors for more than the quickest glance, else you will be over the white lines.

Are you talking about tramlining or wanderlust?

There's a section of road near to where I live, the Omega (2.6) was all over the place negotiating it, where as both the Astra and Insignia are rock solid over the same stretch.

The 2.2 was also rock solid over the same stretch, but on motorways, seemed to have wanderlust.

Thinking similar thoughts here .. "tramlining" as I always understood it, is the tendency for the wheels to want to follow the ruts in the roads, or once set in a certain direction to want to continue that way (once the self centering has done its thing) ... in other words to follow a path like a "tram" does.

Many of the arguments in the several threads on the subject seem to talk about the car moving on its own, so much so (above) that you dare not take your eyes off the road ahead as you must continually make steering corrections.

When Chris drove mine down his "known" road he commented that it only needed one "correction" which coincided with a strong gust of wind, and he declared himself "happy" with the setup.

I just hope we are not talking about two totally different things under the one word, and confusing the issue somewhat !!

Confused of wiltshire :)

But your Elite is on standard Elite 17" rims I think? Going from the picture?

Its a problem magnified I think with these 18" chav-me rims which some decide to fit, as I drove for 100's miles across Euro land barely having to steer at 80mph across all types motorway surfaces.

Constant adjustment at speed would drive me crazy, I just turn the wheel when I need to change direction.

Something to be said for running standard 16" CD alloys with average tyres on it....
« Last Edit: 11 March 2013, 11:06:14 by tunnie »
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Re: Tram lining
« Reply #35 on: 11 March 2013, 11:01:03 »

I should add, when I towed with the 2.2, the 'wanderlust' didn't happen.
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Re: Tram lining
« Reply #36 on: 11 March 2013, 11:03:55 »

It seems to me that all we will ever be able to say is that this is down to tyre construction. Yes, the manufacturer's choice of tyre size puts us in a non-ideal place to begin with, but some tyres in that size achieve stability on a given chassis and setup, and others don't on the same chassis.

Oh, and I believe tramlining and wanderlust might well be related. If a tyre hits an uneven surface it will either comply well with that surface, achieving practically the same contact patch, or it will not, leading to an uneven contact patch. Whether that causes the vehicle to pull laterally depends on what happens to the contact patch, and how its' interaction with the tread pattern causes the forces that act on the tyre to vary.

It could be that with some tyres, those forces vary through minute variations in the vehicle's steering input and poise, leading to seemingly random changes in direction. With the steering and suspension setup on the Omega already being less than ideal and therefore sensitive to such forces, the result is where we are.

Yes, it would be nice to know in advance if a particular make and model of tyre will be satisfactory, but I can't see us ever achieving that, as it's clearly not down to an advertised aspect of tyre performance, but, I suspect, some subtlety in tread pattern, depth or compliance of the tread area and/or sidewall. 

I can't see us getting beyond "suck it and see", to be honest, complicated by the fact that one man's "severe tramlining" is another man's "it does the job".
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Re: Tram lining
« Reply #37 on: 11 March 2013, 11:14:57 »

It seems to me that all we will ever be able to say is that this is down to tyre construction. Yes, the manufacturer's choice of tyre size puts us in a non-ideal place to begin with, but some tyres in that size achieve stability on a given chassis and setup, and others don't on the same chassis.

Oh, and I believe tramlining and wanderlust might well be related. If a tyre hits an uneven surface it will either comply well with that surface, achieving practically the same contact patch, or it will not, leading to an uneven contact patch. Whether that causes the vehicle to pull laterally depends on what happens to the contact patch, and how its' interaction with the tread pattern causes the forces that act on the tyre to vary.

It could be that with some tyres, those forces vary through minute variations in the vehicle's steering input and poise, leading to seemingly random changes in direction. With the steering and suspension setup on the Omega already being less than ideal and therefore sensitive to such forces, the result is where we are.

Yes, it would be nice to know in advance if a particular make and model of tyre will be satisfactory, but I can't see us ever achieving that, as it's clearly not down to an advertised aspect of tyre performance, but, I suspect, some subtlety in tread pattern, depth or compliance of the tread area and/or sidewall. 

I can't see us getting beyond "suck it and see", to be honest, complicated by the fact that one man's "severe tramlining" is another man's "it does the job".

Can't argue with you comments, KW.
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Re: Tram lining
« Reply #38 on: 11 March 2013, 13:04:02 »

It's easy to accept the " we'll never know what causes the problem " until you find yourself where TB is now. ...and to a lesser extent where I was with Falken 912 3/4 years ago. It's an utterly unacceptable state of handling.

Wonder lust, tram lining, lacking directional stability are all the same thing. The car will not go straight.

If there are lines left on the road from lorries, that would be a reason for deviation. It's possible not see deviation on lorry lines with an omega and sc3 mo,  but unusual. The car will rise and fall in and out of the dip, it will do, the surface is a different height. Although the height/depth of the lorry line can vary. Naturally if the lorry lines deep enough the car will move off line eventually.

The problem arises as severe, IMO, when there are no discernible irregularity in the road. Yet the car is still moving around. It's like being cought in a cross wind, or driving on a windy day, except its not windy.
 As if all four tyres are running at 15psi or something daft.

As said, diversion off lorry lines might be expected. And possibly accepted. But if your on lane 3 of a newly re surfaced motorway, It's a warm day, the car is set up correctly, there's no faults on the car, you've fitted new tyres and the damn thing is impossible to keep straight, that unacceptable.

New cars will have manufacturer approved tyres fitted that have been tested to death.
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Re: Tram lining
« Reply #39 on: 11 March 2013, 13:07:57 »

It's easy to accept the " we'll never know what causes the problem " until you find yourself where TB is now. ...and to a lesser extent where I was with Falken 912 3/4 years ago. It's an utterly unacceptable state of handling.

Wonder lust, tram lining, lacking directional stability are all the same thing. The car will not go straight.

If there are lines left on the road from lorries, that would be a reason for deviation. It's possible not see deviation on lorry lines with an omega and sc3 mo,  but unusual. The car will rise and fall in and out of the dip, it will do, the surface is a different height. Although the height/depth of the lorry line can vary. Naturally if the lorry lines deep enough the car will move off line eventually.

The problem arises as severe, IMO, when there are no discernible irregularity in the road. Yet the car is still moving around. It's like being cought in a cross wind, or driving on a windy day, except its not windy.
 As if all four tyres are running at 15psi or something daft.

As said, diversion off lorry lines might be expected. And possibly accepted. But if your on lane 3 of a newly re surfaced motorway, It's a warm day, the car is set up correctly, there's no faults on the car, you've fitted new tyres and the damn thing is impossible to keep straight, that unacceptable.

New cars will have manufacturer approved tyres fitted that have been tested to death.

Is it worth looking at RWD Saloons that are new, with same tyre size? Find said models, maybe E-Class Merc? BMW 5's or Jag XJ's?

Find ones that run same rubber, blag test drives? As surely its the tyre, not the car? Would same tyre behave radically different from XJ-R to Omega?  :-\
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Re: Tram lining
« Reply #40 on: 11 March 2013, 13:13:20 »

It's easy to accept the " we'll never know what causes the problem " until you find yourself where TB is now. ...and to a lesser extent where I was with Falken 912 3/4 years ago. It's an utterly unacceptable state of handling.

Wonder lust, tram lining, lacking directional stability are all the same thing. The car will not go straight.

If there are lines left on the road from lorries, that would be a reason for deviation. It's possible not see deviation on lorry lines with an omega and sc3 mo,  but unusual. The car will rise and fall in and out of the dip, it will do, the surface is a different height. Although the height/depth of the lorry line can vary. Naturally if the lorry lines deep enough the car will move off line eventually.

The problem arises as severe, IMO, when there are no discernible irregularity in the road. Yet the car is still moving around. It's like being cought in a cross wind, or driving on a windy day, except its not windy.
 As if all four tyres are running at 15psi or something daft.

As said, diversion off lorry lines might be expected. And possibly accepted. But if your on lane 3 of a newly re surfaced motorway, It's a warm day, the car is set up correctly, there's no faults on the car, you've fitted new tyres and the damn thing is impossible to keep straight, that unacceptable.

New cars will have manufacturer approved tyres fitted that have been tested to death.

Is it worth looking at RWD Saloons that are new, with same tyre size? Find said models, maybe E-Class Merc? BMW 5's or Jag XJ's?

Find ones that run same rubber, blag test drives? As surely its the tyre, not the car? Would same tyre behave radically different from XJ-R to Omega?  :-\

all those cars tramline Tunnie.. jaguars, bmws, mercedes and many others..  :-\
 
and not only this forum and members, many others are looking for a solution..
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Re: Tram lining
« Reply #41 on: 11 March 2013, 14:08:01 »

It's easy to accept the " we'll never know what causes the problem " until you find yourself where TB is now. ...and to a lesser extent where I was with Falken 912 3/4 years ago. It's an utterly unacceptable state of handling.

Indeed, but what more are we going to achieve? We know what the problem is, in as much detail as we'll ever know, IMHO: "Something in the tyre's construction interacts with a shortcoming of the Omega's suspension setup."

This "something" isn't going to be written on the tyre sidewall or the marketing BS that accompanies it, so I don't see any alternative to taking a punt on a tyre and hoping it works, and accepting that you won't win every time, TBH. :-\

Spreading the risk among ourselves might help, but at the risk that, the bigger the pool of Omega drivers you ask, the wider the spread of expectations and sensitivities to tramlining you'll introduce.

Then you'll get those who'll never admit the tyre they bought was a lemon, and those who'll regurgitate reviews of tyres without having driven on them, let alone in an Omega.

It would be great if you could "try before you buy" but, sadly, that's not possible. At least we know to avoid SC5s and Falkens. That knowledge has, unfortunately, come at a cost to yourself and TheBoy, but at least nobody else will go down that route. I can't really see what more we can achieve, other than to share such findings in as honest and consistent a way as we can manage. Hence it'd be good to assemble as many tyres as possible at an airfield and try them.
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Re: Tram lining
« Reply #42 on: 11 March 2013, 14:27:35 »

and to add , there are hundreds of tyre make*models*sizes that you cant try individually (I dont think anyones budget here is enough to try all of them)..
 
your only chance is to look for tests (primarily)  and although not reliable (as its not measured) read user reviews.. that will at least eliminate worst tyres..
 
but as said tests dont include tramlining and your weather and road conditions may effect the tyre handling (assuming your geo setup is ok).. and if the tests are not distorted :-\
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feeutfo

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Re: Tram lining
« Reply #43 on: 11 March 2013, 14:29:21 »

That's where I was heading Kev. The Airfield meet. What's the odds on finding a similarity amongst bad handling tyres...? Slim?

I am in two minds as to weather to enjoy the day blasting round, or with pen and paper making notes.

I think it's fair to say, nobody knows the answer to tram lining tyres.., what is differant between those and non tram lining tyres. Or at least finding acceptable levels anyway.


However I do wonder, as cem mentioned, and given the MO sc3 tyres performance, if tyres that work on Mercs would also work on the omega. Maybe...?

Mercs of a certain era have much worse set up than an omega, with massive castor angle and aggressive camber that's non adjustable.

Just a thought.
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mantahatch

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Re: Tram lining
« Reply #44 on: 11 March 2013, 14:56:45 »

Can I ask what kind of speed you are doing for this to happen, are we talking 60 to 70 or are you "pressing on" shall we say. I ask as wondering if aerodynamics are coming into play. Less than 70 and aero has little effect. above 70 and it comes into play. Virtually all road cars produce lift, could it be going light at high speeds ? This could be a design problem.

If you look at the side profile of the Omega it is basically a wing. So at high speed you will have low pressure on the upper surfaces of the car.

Just a thought.
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Re: Tram lining
« Reply #45 on: 11 March 2013, 15:04:43 »

However I do wonder, as cem mentioned, and given the MO sc3 tyres performance, if tyres that work on Mercs would also work on the omega. Maybe...?

Mercs of a certain era have much worse set up than an omega, with massive castor angle and aggressive camber that's non adjustable.


That's a good point. The Omega's suspension is clearly a factor in whether a tyre works or not, hence tyre reviews not being worth reading, IMHO. If the merc shares the Omega's sensitivities then perhaps there's some information that can be gleaned from that if Merc have gone to the trouble of doing the research for their specific setup.

Oh, and, IME, if tramlining is an issue, it's there at all speeds. Possibly greater at lower speeds, even?
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Re: Tram lining
« Reply #46 on: 11 March 2013, 15:26:00 »

I started off with Michelin Pilots on the 2.2, no tramlining, then Kumo Sports, still no tramlining, but it had the 'wanderlust'.

Can't remember what was on the 2.6, but it tramlined, changed to Kumo Sports, and it still tramlined, but it didn't 'wanderlust'.

The Astras' got Contis on and doesn't tramline, the Insignia's got Bridgestones and doesn't tramline, neither 'wanderlust'.

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Re: Tram lining
« Reply #47 on: 11 March 2013, 15:31:39 »

What wheels are they on? 225/45/17 isn't an Omega size :-\





 I know that 225/45/17 are NOT standard tyres for omega but if you read my comment properly the wheels came with the tyres already on  ::) they were good tyres so I thought I would use them instead of binning them  ;) the wheels are standard Omega Elite 17" wheels and not from Insignia or any other Vauxhall.
I have just had a thought that because most new cars today are funny wheel drive instead of real wheel drive  ;D ;D are the tyres being made to perform differently and not brilliant for older RWD cars. :-\ :-\
 And BTW its a FL and not a PFL as stated sorry.  :-[
« Last Edit: 11 March 2013, 15:34:56 by kevinp58 »
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Re: Tram lining
« Reply #48 on: 11 March 2013, 16:37:39 »

Can I ask what kind of speed you are doing for this to happen, are we talking 60 to 70 or are you "pressing on" shall we say. I ask as wondering if aerodynamics are coming into play. Less than 70 and aero has little effect. above 70 and it comes into play. Virtually all road cars produce lift, could it be going light at high speeds ? This could be a design problem.

If you look at the side profile of the Omega it is basically a wing. So at high speed you will have low pressure on the upper surfaces of the car.

Just a thought.
some people seem to notice it more than others, but ime speed is not a factor. For instance width restrictions can be a right royal pita, where every vehicle has to pass over the same piece of Tarmac, hence a pair of wear lines appear where the Tarmac compresses. It's obviously negotiated at walking pace.

There's a wr in Reading, near cow lane bridges, locals might know it. The the far side has two exits, you can turn left or right immediately after the restriction which is about 6 feet long. So you  get a YY tram line on the exit. This involves steering wheel corrections ranging from 9 o'clock to 3 o'clock with the steering wheel in order to avoid hitting the kerb with 912 fitted. Mo are unaffected iirc.
« Last Edit: 11 March 2013, 16:40:22 by chrisgixer »
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feeutfo

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Re: Tram lining
« Reply #49 on: 11 March 2013, 16:41:36 »

At the other end of the speed spectrum, motorway speeds where restricted to about 8mph due to width if the lane. And that was being brave.

Mo go on unhindered.
« Last Edit: 11 March 2013, 16:47:15 by chrisgixer »
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05omegav6

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Re: Tram lining
« Reply #50 on: 11 March 2013, 16:59:15 »

I am in two minds as to weather to enjoy the day blasting round, or with pen and paper making notes.

I suspect, however enjoyable the former could be, the latter would still be a day well spent, being an almost unique opportunity to compares tyres and suspension set ups on several Omegas :y
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Re: Tram lining
« Reply #51 on: 11 March 2013, 18:22:51 »

Can I ask what kind of speed you are doing for this to happen, are we talking 60 to 70 or are you "pressing on" shall we say. I ask as wondering if aerodynamics are coming into play. Less than 70 and aero has little effect. above 70 and it comes into play. Virtually all road cars produce lift, could it be going light at high speeds ? This could be a design problem.

If you look at the side profile of the Omega it is basically a wing. So at high speed you will have low pressure on the upper surfaces of the car.

Just a thought.
Probably noticible from 40ish?  Upper end, dunno, my balls aren't big enough with those tyres. Certainly into "instant ban" territory.
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Re: Tram lining
« Reply #52 on: 11 March 2013, 20:19:36 »

Can I ask what kind of speed you are doing for this to happen, are we talking 60 to 70 or are you "pressing on" shall we say. I ask as wondering if aerodynamics are coming into play. Less than 70 and aero has little effect. above 70 and it comes into play. Virtually all road cars produce lift, could it be going light at high speeds ? This could be a design problem.

If you look at the side profile of the Omega it is basically a wing. So at high speed you will have low pressure on the upper surfaces of the car.

Just a thought.
Probably noticible from 40ish?  Upper end, dunno, my balls aren't big enough with those tyres. Certainly into "instant ban" territory.
Man up wet pants... Where's your sense of adventure :-X :-X :-X

TBH, if Mrs TB notices it then it can't be because the car is being driven far too fast ;) ;)
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feeutfo

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Re: Tram lining
« Reply #53 on: 11 March 2013, 20:23:50 »

At the other end of the speed spectrum, motorway speeds where restricted to about 8mph due to width if the lane. And that was being brave.

Mo go on unhindered.
80mph. Not 8mph. ::) ;D
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Re: Tram lining
« Reply #54 on: 11 March 2013, 21:00:38 »

as an experiment, have we tried some "very tramlining" tyres on a car which doesn't do it.

tramlining is classicly defined as a poor reaction to road camber chages which results in a net steer effect.

things that make it worse are generally :-

wide, low-profile tyres. The wider and the lower aspect the worse it gets
poor chassis set-up. the vital adjustments and bush condition
poor suspension design. steering box, for example.
tyre construction and age

its not very difficult to get all of these in an Omega B
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Re: Tram lining
« Reply #55 on: 11 March 2013, 21:01:49 »

just a thought - do these tramlining cars all have the harder ( BMW ? ) bush in the wishbone ?
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Re: Tram lining
« Reply #56 on: 11 March 2013, 21:02:49 »

Man up wet pants... Where's your sense of adventure :-X :-X :-X
The desire not to die just yet. There is a limit to how strong my arse cheek muscles can clench. Additionally, currently running at low pressures, so concerned with sustained high speed stints.
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Re: Tram lining
« Reply #57 on: 11 March 2013, 21:05:38 »

as an experiment, have we tried some "very tramlining" tyres on a car which doesn't do it.

tramlining is classicly defined as a poor reaction to road camber chages which results in a net steer effect.

things that make it worse are generally :-

wide, low-profile tyres. The wider and the lower aspect the worse it gets
poor chassis set-up. the vital adjustments and bush condition
poor suspension design. steering box, for example.
tyre construction and age

its not very difficult to get all of these in an Omega B
Yes, swapped between my 2 Omegas. Tramline moves with the tyres, and the original tramlining car drives straight with different tyres. The tramlining started with the fitting of these new tyres.

Hence the feeling is that there is something about these tyres that make them unsuitable for Omegas.
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Re: Tram lining
« Reply #58 on: 11 March 2013, 21:12:34 »

both omegas on the same size tyres ?
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Re: Tram lining
« Reply #59 on: 11 March 2013, 21:14:32 »

certainly the tyre compound and tread pattern will have an effect.

in order to deflect to absorb the camber, the tyre would really need to be quite soft with a tread pattern able to move around a lot. Pattern a might not be as good as pattern b. then again pattern a when old might be better than pattern b.

I'm sorry, but all of this comes as no answer for someone with a tramlining car.
« Last Edit: 11 March 2013, 21:16:13 by 2woody »
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feeutfo

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Re: Tram lining
« Reply #60 on: 11 March 2013, 21:43:45 »

2woody we have discounted all of those.
certainly the tyre compound and tread pattern will have an effect.
Discounted those, if the implication is that grippier tyres tramline more? sc3mo have way more grip have a bigger size in 18' are wider in 245 and lower in 40mm profile. these do not tramline(although they have other shortcomings)

 Falken 912 are narrower in 235mm, higher in 45 profile, and are 17". they have way less grip than Sc3 Mo.
YET....its the smaller tyre with less grip that tramlines more.
Quote
in order to deflect to absorb the camber, the tyre would really need to be quite soft with a tread pattern able to move around a lot. Pattern a might not be as good as pattern b. then again pattern a when old might be better than pattern b.
Again the problem there for me is, the comparison between sc3 Audi and sc3 Mo (merc) as they both have the EXACT same tread pattern. Compound could well be different though. But the grip level and wear rate seems the same Afaict. :-\
Quote
I'm sorry, but all of this comes as no answer for someone with a tramlining car.

While these are all in the tram lining book of legends, and I accept fully they all increase the likely hood of directional stability issues. I have trouble accepting any of them as the one and only cause, or even collectively, given my experiences.

Construction. Perhaps?


Oh another theory on the sc3 Mo/sc3 Ao1 comparison to discuss perhaps. Thinking along the lines of euro style wheels and tyre fitments. Sorry, bare with me.

 Take an 8j rim, fit a 235 tyres(ao1). 8j is an inch wider, or at least wider than the oe 17" oe omega wheel. This would give a sidewall shape in profile pointing away from the hub centre.
          +
         Hub
      Centre


\___tread____/

But a wider 245 on the same rim would give more vertical side walls perhaps

           +
         Hub
       Centre


|____Tread_____|

In this case I wonder if the top diag would tram line more...?
« Last Edit: 11 March 2013, 21:46:29 by chrisgixer »
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05omegav6

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Re: Tram lining
« Reply #61 on: 11 March 2013, 22:00:28 »

The top pic would suggest that the tyre will be able to roll over the shoulders, whereas the 245 should be better supported, especially if the tyres are XL :-\
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feeutfo

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Re: Tram lining
« Reply #62 on: 11 March 2013, 22:08:12 »

The top pic would suggest that the tyre will be able to roll over the shoulders, whereas the 245 should be better supported, especially if the tyres are XL :-\

I agree I think.


And XL are alleged to tram line more too. Or at least its mentioned on the wheels in motion web site as such. Yet Entwood has 97load with XL . Iirc...?
They go straight.

(I'm praying SMD's issues are pressure related. Please god.)
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feeutfo

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Re: Tram lining
« Reply #63 on: 11 March 2013, 22:42:19 »

A would like to add. I have no experience of euro style handling. And that we are only talking 10mm difference across the width. 5mm each side. Although, isn't there a ratio of width and height or sumat?
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Re: Tram lining
« Reply #64 on: 11 March 2013, 22:43:34 »

there are recommended rim widths for every tyre. I've no experience outside those.

I also shouldn't comment on "euro" style tyre fitting just at the moment
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feeutfo

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Re: Tram lining
« Reply #65 on: 11 March 2013, 22:49:03 »

there are recommended rim widths for every tyre. I've no experience outside those.

I also shouldn't comment on "euro" style tyre fitting just at the moment

Whyzatden? :)
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Re: Tram lining
« Reply #66 on: 11 March 2013, 22:54:39 »

I run 235 45 17  on elite wheels. tyres on the front are 97w xl. these have been on for about 1k miles so far with no tramlining :y
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feeutfo

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Re: Tram lining
« Reply #67 on: 11 March 2013, 23:07:20 »

I run 235 45 17  on elite wheels. tyres on the front are 97w xl. these have been on for about 1k miles so far with no tramlining :y
What make? Model? :)
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Re: Tram lining
« Reply #68 on: 11 March 2013, 23:11:40 »

Budget westlake sv308
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feeutfo

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Re: Tram lining
« Reply #69 on: 11 March 2013, 23:16:12 »

Budget westlake sv308
Sorry, west what? ;D ok ok ignore me.

Hang on I'll start another thread.
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Re: Tram lining
« Reply #70 on: 11 March 2013, 23:23:54 »

Budget westlake sv308
Sorry, west what? ;D

Thats what i thought. But they where round and black so i thought that will do.
 If you want to try them let me know and i will pop over so you can test them on known roads to you
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Re: Tram lining
« Reply #71 on: 11 March 2013, 23:25:44 »

Budget westlake sv308
Quote
Sorry, west what? ;D

Thats what i thought. But they where round and black so i thought that will do.
 If you want to try them let me know and i will pop over so you can test them on known roads to you
Your more than welcome. :y

I'd be very interested. :)
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doz

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Re: Tram lining
« Reply #72 on: 11 March 2013, 23:42:42 »

I fear I may just about to upset the handling on my Mig. Once I'm up to it I've got a set 18" rims with 225's for the front and 245's for the rear.  ::)
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If you have to ask you wouldn't understand
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