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[feeutfo]

These are Colin G's wishbone rear bushes, purchased on eBay, manufacturer unknown.



Colin fitted these himself, drove the car round the block and the car felt odd. Re examination revealed the rear bush shown had ripped very badly almost instantly, as shown in the picture.

The replacement Lemforder items i fitted for him now come date stamped, so we can see how old they are. This should stop euro car parts and the like flogging us wb's that could have been on the shelf for years for all we know.

[StuntS]

that's shocking!

[omega3000]

  what a mess

[geoffr70]

Hope he gets his money back

[Elite Pete]

Thats terrible in such a short time. IIRC the genuine Vauxhall rear bushes are only about £15 each.

[feeutfo]

Thats a good point Pete.

The above statement is based on the general assumption that the vast majority of members will not have access to a capable press, and therefor will be looking to buy complete wishbones fitted like for like on the drive.
 I'm also assuming those that do have access to a press will want to fit Lemforder/vx rear bushes anyway for durability, and will be aware of checking wb ball joints for play before proceeding with said press etc etc...

Obviously if a member has access to a press there's saving to be made by buying bushes individually. Provided suitable drifts can be acquired 

[Seth]

Are the wishbones themselves intact though Chris?

Am looking for a pair to recondition, as I've got the necessary bushes and ball-joints in stock here.
Will poly-bush the fronts.

[feeutfo]

Are the wishbones themselves intact though Chris?

Am looking for a pair to recondition, as I've got the necessary bushes and ball-joints in stock here.
Will poly-bush the fronts.

oh yeah, might be worth a pm to Colin, if he hasn't had a refund or doesn't want to refurb them himself.

[feeutfo]

Although I should add, the ball joints did seem exceptionally stiff, compared to new ones I've seen.

[Darth Loo-knee]

Although I do know someone who fitted Lemforder wishbones about a year ago, which are now in need of changing.
Personally I would not fit Lemforder to my own car either.

[feeutfo]

Although I do know someone who fitted Lemforder wishbones about a year ago, which are now in need of changing.
Personally I would not fit Lemforder to my own car either.

And the alternative is...?

[Abiton]

Alternative.

Genuine bushes (or poly front, gen rear).  Probably best/cheapest to go to andyc for the genuine articles.
Any old secondhand knackered wishbones (how hard can they be to obtain!)

Some improvised fitting kit:









Some musclepower.

No press.

Probably won't have the Omega much longer so the drifts will be on offer for just postage cost in due course.  Can be borrowed in the meantime.

[feeutfo]

I can see that working well on the rear bush, but IME the tonnage needed can vary from 7 to 12 tonnes when pressing the front bush. So "may" be problematic perhaps, although its obviously worked for your good self.

I suppose being belt and braces, that threaded method for the rear bush and pollys for the front bush would be a guaranteed way of tefurbing, provided the ball joints are ok of course.

But I still say, if replacing wishbones fit Lemforder. Refurbing is another story, not all members will want or have the confidence to refurb.

Good job though.

[feeutfo]

But on the subject of refurbing, getting the rear bush out is a challenge ime. I used many drill bits, due to the buld shape of the centre spacer.

[serek]

Although I do know someone who fitted Lemforder wishbones about a year ago, which are now in need of changing.
Personally I would not fit Lemforder to my own car either.

+1
I buy cheap ones from ebay 50£ pair and they ok for 40K miles or more

[Lazydocker]

My feelings on Lemforders are well known

IMO, wishbones are a service item and the cheap ones I got lasted me 18 months (30+k) on the old car, although I did have a second set that were starting to fail after about 24k

I reckon the next ones will be cheap(ish) ones with polys in the front to start with

[Nick W]

I'm used to Capris, where even using genuine Ford TCAs meant that they were an yearly MOT requirement. Although I was doing 30,000 miles a year at that point.

On a big heavy car like an Omega, I would still consider them consumable, and again 30K miles isn't too bad. It's not limited to these cars; E34 and E39 BMWs suffer from lower arm bushes, and they have 2 £50 arms per side. Consider a Galant, they're known for the bushes to wear, and for the balljoints to actually break. £150 a side if you're lucky!

My main reason for using poly bushes in anything is not for any handling improvement, as I 've never noticed much difference, but simply for durability.

Personally, I found removing the front bushes much worse than changing the rears which took a couple of minutes total. That's using a 10 tonne press, and only one pair of hands.  Unfortunately, it's too small framed to be able to press the front ones out(poly bushes a simple push fit). So it was a matter of drilling the rubber and hacksawing the sleeves. I wish I'd thought of using a hole saw as somebody here mentioned.

[VXL V6]

Originally I would have said that fitting Lemforders and then swapping the bushes for Pollys when the originals failed was the best plan but when you price in the Geo costs X 2 and the fact mine have lasted less than a year then I think your best to polly them from new.

Strangely the set put on Mrs VXL's estate two years ago (again Lemforders) are still fine now, so either they were better quality back then or my slightly more 'pressing on' driving style in my car has done them no favours.

The question I would like answered is how long did the factory fitted OEM wishbones last on the vehicle? Did their failings not get picked up because of the fleet ownership of the cars back then or are they genuinely much much better than Lemforders 'sell to end user' product?

 

[feeutfo]

All fair points, but as said, very few people have access to a press.

The most active members on here are quite handy with spanners and confident they understand and are capable with the finer points of refurbing.
This thread is not for them, they aren't going to ask me or anyone else what to do.

It's for less confident members who just want to bang on a set of bones via the guide, and have them last an amount of time comparable to their price.
Now, with the history of "lesser" makes such as first line, Delphi, and suppliers such as buypartsby that have caused major Argo to members in the past how can anyone possibly recommend anything else other than Lemforder...?

Not to mention the pic above? Colin did well fitting them, all was correct,he did nothing wrong yet his time effort and money was a total waste. He'd had had enough...

Are we really saying members should risk the scene in the pic above after a days graft under the car? How ridiculous.



As said elsewhere. Lemforders are now date stamped, thereby guaranteeing the age already on the bushes and getting a pair, rather than being supplied odd parts from one store or another of who knows what age, which might account for some of the early failures after a year or two.

Should the front bush fail there is always the polly route, or the two year warranty. Date stamped remember.

If you've had early failure, can you say when the items where made? They could be much older than the time actually fitted to the car.

[razzo]

I have some poly bar sitting around here gathering dust left over from when i polly'd the rear bush on mine, so was wondering if someone has a pair of wishbones with shot bushes & want to go for an all poly set up i could donate a pair of bushes for someone to evaluate & see what they think? will post a pic later if that helps

[tunnie]

Lemforder wishbones on the 3.2, so far no complaints 

[Elite Pete]

Personally I would buy the cheap wishbones off Ebay for £50, polybush the front and fit Vauxhall bushes to the rear. All in cost about £120, ok its a little more work but well worth it

[Marks DTM Calib]

Again, as many know, I am not a Lemforder fan, for me, there not worth the money.

I to would buy ebay ones and poly the fronts.

I have managed to change the rear bushes in a good bench vice using a socket as a drift and the outer sleeve of the old front bush before without to much trouble.

Clearly the picture shown is a manufacturing quality issue (not one I have seen before either)

[feeutfo]

Again, as said, refurbing is a different story altogether.

But as we seem to insist on taking the thread that way, I have now seen 3 sets of refurbed wishbones, all 3 on their second set of rear bushes, and all three have exhibited some quite severe ball joint play that I'm sure was not present when refurbed by myself and others capable on here.

Seems to me the ball joint life is not capable of out lasting two sets of rearward bushes!
Therefor, refurbing is arguably not suitable for all members anyway, even if they have a press or whatever else is needed.

Mark your more then capable of coming up with many a way to get a job done, as most prominant members are on here.
With respect to newer members, how much of this refurbing advice is of relevance to them on a DIY basis...?
Yes we'll help out where possible, but you've said yourself you wouldn't fit £50 wb's with stock bushes. Bugger that.

We are talking about complete wishbone units here, old one off, new one on!

[feeutfo]

Also, I've just remembered, (der) Colin's failed the the Mot on...

...worn steering knuckle ball joint. So couldn't have refurbed the originals if he'd wanted to. Which he didn't.

[Marks DTM Calib]

Again, as said, refurbing is a different story altogether.

But as we seem to insist on taking the thread that way, I have now seen 3 sets of refurbed wishbones, all 3 on their second set of rear bushes, and all three have exhibited some quite severe ball joint play that I'm sure was not present when refurbed by myself and others capable on here.

Seems to me the ball joint life is not capable of out lasting two sets of rearward bushes!
Therefor, refurbing is arguably not suitable for all members anyway, even if they have a press or whatever else is needed.

Mark your more then capable of coming up with many a way to get a job done, as most prominant members are on here.
With respect to newer members, how much of this refurbing advice is of relevance to them on a DIY basis...?
Yes we'll help out where possible, but you've said yourself you wouldn't fit £50 wb's with stock bushes. Bugger that.

 

The problem is were not as we know very well that the lemforder front bushes are as rubbish as the cheap ones 

[feeutfo]

Again, as said, refurbing is a different story altogether.

But as we seem to insist on taking the thread that way, I have now seen 3 sets of refurbed wishbones, all 3 on their second set of rear bushes, and all three have exhibited some quite severe ball joint play that I'm sure was not present when refurbed by myself and others capable on here.

Seems to me the ball joint life is not capable of out lasting two sets of rearward bushes!
Therefor, refurbing is arguably not suitable for all members anyway, even if they have a press or whatever else is needed.

Mark your more then capable of coming up with many a way to get a job done, as most prominant members are on here.
With respect to newer members, how much of this refurbing advice is of relevance to them on a DIY basis...?
Yes we'll help out where possible, but you've said yourself you wouldn't fit £50 wb's with stock bushes. Bugger that.

 

The problem is were not as we know very well that the lemforder front bushes are as rubbish as the cheap ones 

I'm gob smacked your saying that at all. Yours lasted two years...? A shorter life than expected true enough.
But I see it that yours lasted less than the average for Lemforder. We will get a longer average life from Lemforder than cheapo's.
Can i ask, where did you get your Lemforders? Betting on euro car parts..? But wherever, would 6 to 9 months on the shelf account for early failure?

[YZ250]

Also, I've just remembered, (der) Colin's failed the the Mot on...

...worn steering knuckle ball joint. So couldn't have refurbed the originals if he'd wanted to. Which he didn't.

What about the bolt on replacement balljoint. Strictly speaking, the whole wishbone is 'repairable' with GM parts. I suppose it's down to quick exchange though to minimise time off road, unless you have some spare one's to rebuild. All down to available facilities as already mentioned. Just a thought.

Regards
Alan

[Kevin Wood]

The ball joint issue makes me wonder how many get mullered in the process of removing them from the car, TBH.

I know that my course of action next time would be to press in new rear bushes from a trusted source.

Front bush is poly anyway, so easy to swap (can't see any reason to go back to rubber, given the improvement in feel), so with replacement wishbones, I'd be cutting that out and binning it anyway.

Rear bush? Well, IIRC, it's the easier of the two to replace. I'd rather take it to a local garage or a mate with a press and exchange a few beer tokens to get a new bush pressed in than suffer the total scrambling of the suspension setup that's inevitable with fitting pattern wishbones, plus the cost of a WIM session to get it right again.

I'd probably do that now, even though I have a spare set of rebushed wishbones in the garage, because it's less hassle.

[feeutfo]

Also, I've just remembered, (der) Colin's failed the the Mot on...

...worn steering knuckle ball joint. So couldn't have refurbed the originals if he'd wanted to. Which he didn't.

What about the bolt on replacement balljoint. Strictly speaking, the whole wishbone is 'repairable' with GM parts. I suppose it's down to quick exchange though to minimise time off road, unless you have some spare one's to rebuild. All down to available facilities as already mentioned. Just a thought.

Regards
Alan

Yes the ball joints can be bolted on. Although I won't be trusting them personally. Nylocs and all that lateral load... Nah ta. They'll probably be fine tbh, but not for me.

But can we consider poor Colin for a minute? From what I gather it took a good portion of the day to fit both sides. We all know what it's like first time we do wishbones. It's awkward enough without rather about with cutting,  pressing, fitting, bushes. Grinding rivets off, fitting ball joints.
Yes only the ball joint failed, but does he trust the tester to spot a failed wishbone bush? No. And rightly so. If the ball joints gone, then so are the bushes. The tester just missed them.


So we have fubar ball joints and bushes. What do we do?

[Marks DTM Calib]

Again, as said, refurbing is a different story altogether.

But as we seem to insist on taking the thread that way, I have now seen 3 sets of refurbed wishbones, all 3 on their second set of rear bushes, and all three have exhibited some quite severe ball joint play that I'm sure was not present when refurbed by myself and others capable on here.

Seems to me the ball joint life is not capable of out lasting two sets of rearward bushes!
Therefor, refurbing is arguably not suitable for all members anyway, even if they have a press or whatever else is needed.

Mark your more then capable of coming up with many a way to get a job done, as most prominant members are on here.
With respect to newer members, how much of this refurbing advice is of relevance to them on a DIY basis...?
Yes we'll help out where possible, but you've said yourself you wouldn't fit £50 wb's with stock bushes. Bugger that.

 

The problem is were not as we know very well that the lemforder front bushes are as rubbish as the cheap ones 

I'm gob smacked your saying that at all. Yours lasted two years...? A shorter life than expected true enough.
But I see it that yours lasted less than the average for Lemforder. We will get a longer average life from Lemforder than cheapo's.
Can i ask, where did you get your Lemforders? Betting on euro car parts..? But wherever, would 6 to 9 months on the shelf account for early failure?

Mine came from autovaux, they lasted two years which was 12K miles (6K per year) with er indoors driving most of them (so not my full on driving). This is the same life as I got from the cheap ones before them (hence why I fitted lemforders as I hoped they would be better than the cheap ones).

Interestingly, the set on mine were made up of original wishbones plus Vx rear bushes and the Merle fronts which lasted ok.

I cant see a rubber item deteriorating to any significant degree in 6 months on a shelf.

[feeutfo]

I should also add, as the details come back to me, the cheapo wishbones where exceptionally difficult to get low enough to locate the ball joint in the Knuckle. And hence to remove the poxy things as well.

I dont think Colin appreciates the advice not to fit Lemforder.


Ok, we have to accept these are service items, but let's give newer members a fighting chance of a result. The odds are against them with these poxy items. Fitting as awkward enough without refurbing as well. Colin needs the car for the family, it's deepest darkest winter, and he's never done the job before. Advising cheapie parts is not helping anyone!

Having pollied several cars recently it's blatantly obvious the front bushes are very differant in that most cheepy WB's I see don't even have oil bladders in them. There is some real shite out there being passed off as oe quality. It's not, they're crap.

[feeutfo]

Again, as said, refurbing is a different story altogether.

But as we seem to insist on taking the thread that way, I have now seen 3 sets of refurbed wishbones, all 3 on their second set of rear bushes, and all three have exhibited some quite severe ball joint play that I'm sure was not present when refurbed by myself and others capable on here.

Seems to me the ball joint life is not capable of out lasting two sets of rearward bushes!
Therefor, refurbing is arguably not suitable for all members anyway, even if they have a press or whatever else is needed.

Mark your more then capable of coming up with many a way to get a job done, as most prominant members are on here.
With respect to newer members, how much of this refurbing advice is of relevance to them on a DIY basis...?
Yes we'll help out where possible, but you've said yourself you wouldn't fit £50 wb's with stock bushes. Bugger that.

 

The problem is were not as we know very well that the lemforder front bushes are as rubbish as the cheap ones 

I'm gob smacked your saying that at all. Yours lasted two years...? A shorter life than expected true enough.
But I see it that yours lasted less than the average for Lemforder. We will get a longer average life from Lemforder than cheapo's.
Can i ask, where did you get your Lemforders? Betting on euro car parts..? But wherever, would 6 to 9 months on the shelf account for early failure?

Mine came from autovaux, they lasted two years which was 12K miles (6K per year) with er indoors driving most of them (so not my full on driving). This is the same life as I got from the cheap ones before them (hence why I fitted lemforders as I hoped they would be better than the cheap ones).

Interestingly, the set on mine were made up of original wishbones plus Vx rear bushes and the Merle fronts which lasted ok.

I cant see a rubber item deteriorating to any significant degree in 6 months on a shelf.

hmmm, so we trust autovaux?

I wouldn't leave tyres on a shelf in sun light for 6 months without covering them. But without a date stamp we'll never know thier age anyway.

I also can't help wonder re certain suppliers, ESP given the ones you kindly pressed for us all at Newent lasted no problem. Mine failed eventually with ball joint play.

I'm certain all German turn thier wb's around and out the door pretty damn quick. Although I wonder if Andy got his from Jason...?

[Marks DTM Calib]

The ones from Autovaux I would guess as being pretty fresh, they were not off the shelf as they were awaiting re-stock from Germany at the time (there were quite a few of us buying from them around this period I seem to recall as I also rated them better due to them being an OEM supplier and the original fit lasting so well). I recall Matchless buying a set and being sent to left hand ones and having to wait for the correct one to arrive (seem to recall they also didn't ask for the incorrect part back)

I have, as you are aware, since come to the conclusion that they are not worth the money based on the results I have seen.

I still wont back Lemforder as there is nothing to stop them arriving with a manufacturing defect such as you have seen on the pattern ones..... 

[Elite Pete]

Would it not be worth the forum selling wishbones with the bushes done. Buy the cheap ones off Ebay, remove cheap bushes and replace front with poly and rear with genuine and charge say £150 a pair. I've got the use of a good press and i'll be doing another set next week so don't mind doing them. Just a thought

[Seth]

Also, I've just remembered, (der) Colin's failed the the Mot on...

...worn steering knuckle ball joint. So couldn't have refurbed the originals if he'd wanted to. Which he didn't.

What about the bolt on replacement balljoint. Strictly speaking, the whole wishbone is 'repairable' with GM parts. I suppose it's down to quick exchange though to minimise time off road, unless you have some spare one's to rebuild. All down to available facilities as already mentioned. Just a thought.

Regards
Alan

Yes the ball joints can be bolted on. Although I won't be trusting them personally. Nylocs and all that lateral load... Nah ta. They'll probably be fine tbh, but not for me.

But can we consider poor Colin for a minute? From what I gather it took a good portion of the day to fit both sides. We all know what it's like first time we do wishbones. It's awkward enough without rather about with cutting,  pressing, fitting, bushes. Grinding rivets off, fitting ball joints.
Yes only the ball joint failed, but does he trust the tester to spot a failed wishbone bush? No. And rightly so. If the ball joints gone, then so are the bushes. The tester just missed them.


So we have fubar ball joints and bushes. What do we do?

When this occurs on any Omega that's brought here for rectification, it gets new Lemforder 'bones (from AllGerman), with poly-bushed front ends.
No 'if or but' - and the owner's under no mis-apprehension about this policy before work starts.

[feeutfo]

Also, I've just remembered, (der) Colin's failed the the Mot on...

...worn steering knuckle ball joint. So couldn't have refurbed the originals if he'd wanted to. Which he didn't.

What about the bolt on replacement balljoint. Strictly speaking, the whole wishbone is 'repairable' with GM parts. I suppose it's down to quick exchange though to minimise time off road, unless you have some spare one's to rebuild. All down to available facilities as already mentioned. Just a thought.

Regards
Alan

Yes the ball joints can be bolted on. Although I won't be trusting them personally. Nylocs and all that lateral load... Nah ta. They'll probably be fine tbh, but not for me.

But can we consider poor Colin for a minute? From what I gather it took a good portion of the day to fit both sides. We all know what it's like first time we do wishbones. It's awkward enough without rather about with cutting,  pressing, fitting, bushes. Grinding rivets off, fitting ball joints.
Yes only the ball joint failed, but does he trust the tester to spot a failed wishbone bush? No. And rightly so. If the ball joints gone, then so are the bushes. The tester just missed them.


So we have fubar ball joints and bushes. What do we do?

When this occurs on any Omega that's brought here for rectification, it gets new Lemforder 'bones (from AllGerman), with poly-bushed front ends.
No 'if or but' - and the owner's under no mis-apprehension about this policy before work starts.

Seems logical to me Seth.

Obviously if refurb is viable for that particular member then all the better, if they fancy it.

[feeutfo]

Would it not be worth the forum selling wishbones with the bushes done. Buy the cheap ones off Ebay, remove cheap bushes and replace front with poly and rear with genuine and charge say £150 a pair. I've got the use of a good press and i'll be doing another set next week so don't mind doing them. Just a thought

I wondered if we could get all German to supply with front bushes missing? Not likely I guess, but would make life easier for newer members, and might be cheaper...?


Nah, who am I kidding?

[YZ250]

I dont think Colin appreciates the advice not to fit Lemforder.

Fair play to Colin for doing the job himself.    As said, he did everything correctly but was let down by an inferior part. It's just a shame that Vauxhall charge around £500 for a pair of wishbones. They would have sold many many more if the price was more realistic.

Regards
Alan

[VXL V6]

Well my first set of Poly's have arrived from Larkspeed....

But I need to sort the crankshaft pulley first 

[razzo]

rear bush on wishbone now replaced



 

[feeutfo]

I dont think Colin appreciates the advice not to fit Lemforder.

Fair play to Colin for doing the job himself.    As said, he did everything correctly but was let down by an inferior part. It's just a shame that Vauxhall charge around £500 for a pair of wishbones. They would have sold many many more if the price was more realistic.

Regards
Alan

Indeed, bless him. Let's hope he can re coupe his losses.

Re vx wb's, there is supposed to be a theory lemforders are the same part, as we know. In fact it's possible to see where the vx/gm logo has been partly/mostly removed from the Lemforder parts. Rear donuts as well.

£235 a side for genuine vx bones is bloody rediculous IMO too.
More than some cars are worth, although I don't subscribe to the car value v parts equation personally, some certainly do. Which may well guide them to buy the cheapest parts available.
I guess we don't know what life to expect from the current crop of genuine vx wb's either, seeing as nobody seems to buy them and keep the car long enough to wear them out...?

[henryd]

I dont think Colin appreciates the advice not to fit Lemforder.

Fair play to Colin for doing the job himself.    As said, he did everything correctly but was let down by an inferior part. It's just a shame that Vauxhall charge around £500 for a pair of wishbones. They would have sold many many more if the price was more realistic.

Regards
Alan

Indeed, bless him. Let's hope he can re coupe his losses.

Re vx wb's, there is supposed to be a theory lemforders are the same part, as we know. In fact it's possible to see where the vx/gm logo has been partly/mostly removed from the Lemforder parts. Rear donuts as well.

£235 a side for genuine vx bones is bloody rediculous IMO too.
More than some cars are worth, although I don't subscribe to the car value v parts equation personally, some certainly do. Which may well guide them to buy the cheapest parts available.
I guess we don't know what life to expect from the current crop of genuine vx wb's either, seeing as nobody seems to buy them and keep the car long enough to wear them out...?

My Omega had a set of genuine bones fitted about 12 months before I got it and they were still spot on when I sold it 2.5 years on although milage was only 25k or so,my work lane however is over half a mile long and potholed to hell and the Mig thundered up and down that several times a day so they had a good workout

[VXL V6]

I suppose the problem is that these vehicles are low value, so to a lot of people putting genuine wishbones on at the price they sell for isn't always the best solution.

For those who prefer a 'tighter' handling the polybushing of a cheaper wishbone seems a far better option as long as the rear bush and ball joint are of good quality.

[TheBoy]

There was a Q earlier about how long do GM bushes last.


I've had the Silver Bullet just over 8 years.  It was around 5yrs old when I got it.

I had to change the front wishbones (and shocks at same time) within the first year of my ownership. I used Genuine GM, as they were around £70 per side, retail.  Estimating around 95k, service history suggests this was first time they were replaced.

Marks DTM Calib rebushed those around the early summer of 2008 (? - the same year the 'press' got broken at Newent), which I would guess would be approx 150k, using genuine GM bushes. Front bushes failed last summer (175k approx), now polyed.

*May* have a small amount of balljoint play on one side, not bad for 7yrs, and 90k.  Although its clear as the car ages, the bushes don't last as long. Extra pressures on them as other components wear, or simply poorer parts?

Not sure if driven style plays that big a part, probably more stresses on it tottling down a country road, than caneing it up round roundabouts etc 


What would I do now?

Probably, as my GMs still remain rust free, I'd probably rebush the rears with GM, poly the front, and if necessary, replace the balljoint.  If my wishbones were pattern, I'd probably go quality, eg Lemforder, poly the front immediately, and look to rebush the rear on failure, using a GM bush.  Assuming I can find a nice man with a press, and drag him away from his Hornby set for long enough

[feeutfo]

You DO have ball joint play. There's no may about it.

And as said several times. Those with means to refurb won't have an issue.

Depends who's asking the question, as to what wb's to fit.

So if you had no means to refurb what would you do...?

[TheBoy]

So if you had no means to refurb what would you do...?

On a 183k car, I wouldn't fit *any* wishbone as-is. I would defo change the fronts for polys.

The rest, I'd stated
If my wishbones were pattern, I'd probably go quality, eg Lemforder, poly the front immediately, and look to rebush the rear on failure, using a GM bush

[TheBoy]

As for refurbing balljoint, that looks to be an easy task - drill old off, bolt new on.

[feeutfo]

So pollys don't count as refurbing?

[TheBoy]

So pollys don't count as refurbing?

Factoring the geo costs, why piss around?

[feeutfo]

So pollys don't count as refurbing?

Factoring the geo costs, why piss around?

For more experienced members I fully agree. But as said this thread this thread isn't for experienced members who have the confidence and means to cut bits off and bolt/press bits back on. Ie no refurbing for them. I agree polly is advantageous. But fitting polly is refurbing to my mind surely! No?

As I understand it, it took Colin most of the day to fit his cheepy wishbones, and tbh iirc it took a similar amount of time the first time I tackled the job as well. It's not viable to fit polly/refurb in a day under such circumstances.

I dunno. Maybe I'm not explaining this clearly enough?

[TheBoy]

So pollys don't count as refurbing?

Factoring the geo costs, why piss around?

For more experienced members I fully agree. But as said this thread this thread isn't for experienced members who have the confidence and means to cut bits off and bolt/press bits back on. Ie no refurbing for them. I agree polly is advantageous. But fitting polly is refurbing to my mind surely! No?

As I understand it, it took Colin most of the day to fit his cheepy wishbones, and tbh iirc it took a similar amount of time the first time I tackled the job as well. It's not viable to fit polly/refurb in a day under such circumstances.

I dunno. Maybe I'm not explaining this clearly enough?

Poly the new ones the day before then

[aaronjb]

I dunno. Maybe I'm not explaining this clearly enough?

I think you're explaining it clearly, but you may well be flogging the proverbial dead donkey at this point

If nobody is giving an alternative to refurbing then ... perhaps there is no alternative? Either that or if you've discounted all the aftermarket brands your are forced to fit GM originals at enormous cost.

[TheBoy]

If you are prepared to live with it for a year on original bushes, then refurb (or refurb the old ones you take off, if they are worth refurbing), I'd probably see sense in slapping on £40-a-pair egay shite, hoping it will last the year, then refit the refurbed, rebushed ones.  Not that I would probably do that myself, as explained.

[Elite Pete]

Surely its best to go the whole hog from the start. If you consider what a suspension set up at WIM and possibly a couple of badly worn tyres cost

[Kevin Wood]

As for GM originals, I wouldn't mind betting that, as with exhausts, they are no longer sourcing their own original equipment parts but that you'll get the same pattern parts at an inflated price.

Clearly this example was a shockingly bad quality part with a defect that caused immediate failure.

Probability of getting a part with such a defect from each manufacturer? Well, it's the only one we've seen, so not enough data to be sure. Maybe the probability would have been less with a Lemforder part, maybe not. Gut feeling says that, unlike pattern cam cover gaskets, for example, cheap wishbones aren't notorious for such very early failures, so Colin has been extremely unlucky.

Now, longer term durability of the bushes should immediate failure not occur is another matter, and we've seen good and bad from both Lemforder and nonames there, IMHO.

FWIW, changing to poly front bushes from standard bushes only required a toe adjustment on my car, so no need to go for a full monty geometry setup if it was known to be good beforehand, IMHO.

[feeutfo]

Well this it, finally, in that from what I've seen no names have historically been far more likely to fail in the first year than lemforders. To imply the average life of both is remotely similar... Well, makes no sense to me I have to say.

Ok, there will be the odd early failure of Lemforders of up to a year. Two years even.
And some will have no names that last more than a year. A cross over so to speak. Although there remains a question on when the failure gets noticed perhaps.
There is a two year warranty On parts from Lemforder, although just pollying there and then makes more sense to those that are confident enough to do so should the front bush fail. I get the pollying refurb bit, I do, makes perfect sense.

But the pollying aspect makes it all the more important for less confident owners to fit the longer lasting wishbones in the first place. If they cant refurb( which includes fitting polly) they will be left with buggered bushes earlier anyway and no recourse but to replace wishbones complete again.   !

It IS worth paying for Lemforder for greater average bush life if an owner does not have refurb(which includes polly) as an option.

In fact given rear bush life there's a case for lemforder on rear bushes alone to avoid removing the wishbone for pollying for more confident members. IMO.


We need to see other members positions also... Not everyone is handy at spannering/wishbone twerling as senior members on here. No disrespect to Colin, but it's a learning curve, and he had a go fair play to him. A learning curve that not everyone can see to the end, or even wants or has time to.

Add in ball joint life and quality and there's more to it than £50. Much more.

[feeutfo]

Bah, that last was way longer than I intended.

[Kevin Wood]

To imply the average life of both is remotely similar... Well, makes no sense to me I have to say.

Maybe you're right. Maybe you've been keeping a more keen eye on who's fitting what and what their experiences have been. I've heard of Lemforders that have had a disappointing life and nonames that have been fine, and vice versa, and I can't really tell the wood from the trees as far as where the evidence points.

Contrast that with experiences that have been shared on the forum in other areas - e.g. cam cover gaskets, and the message is more clear, because everybody who fits pattern parts is back cursing them in a month, without exception.

As you say, though, by offering a 2 year warranty, at least with Lemforders the financial blow of an early failure ought to be softened somewhat (against a higher purchase price, though).

[Marks DTM Calib]

The correct answer has to be to offer accurate advice e.g.

Lemforders, greater cost but potentialy better quality.

Cheapo's, lower cost but potentialy a slightly greater risk of early failure.

This is a clear case of where its upto the op to decide as there is no clear guaranteed benefits with the greater cost.

Sad fact is though, we still need to advise that the front bushes are polyed on both!

[Elite_L0ver]

[/highlight]

Although I do know someone who fitted Lemforder wishbones about a year ago, which are now in need of changing.
Personally I would not fit Lemforder to my own car either.

+1
I buy cheap ones from ebay 50£ pair and they ok for 40K miles or more

[/highlight]

I just brought a pair off eBay for my mot started to fit them myself UNTIL my dad lost the bolt down the subframe but now done ( after 178 quid bill including new tyre mot and wishbone change) but am very happy with them on my 2.5 v6 elite

[andyc]

Just checked my stock of both front and rear bushs and both are made by Boge

Cheers
Andy

[TheBoy]

@chrisgixer - reading your post, I was thinking exactly what MDTM has said - we need to inform members that quality ones (Lemforder, GM etc) will last longer and cost more, cheaper ones may not last as long but are cheaper.  Then its down to choice.

As Kevin Wood says, some items we definately can say use ABC, avoid XYZ - cam cover gaskets being an obvious one - but not so sure its that clear cut on wishbones.

Maybe, those people who seem to put themselves out to do other people's wishbones could consider collecting old, knackered but good quality wishbones, and check them over, pressing in rear bushes, and polying front. Changing balljoint if necessary.  Not sure how the logistics would work, as I certainly wouldn't want to see those that do put themselves out suffer financial losses etc, or being liable for early failure on it.  Dunno, thinking aloud.


Given my own experiences, I reckon as the car ages, the bushes fail quicker.  Absolutely no idea why. Maybe thats worth determining?

[JamesV6CDX]

the cheapo wishbones where exceptionally difficult to get low enough to locate the ball joint in the Knuckle.

Yes!!!!!!

Wholeheartedly agree.

[feeutfo]

The correct answer has to be to offer accurate advice e.g.

Lemforders, greater cost but potentialy better quality.

Cheapo's, lower cost but potentialy a slightly greater risk of early failure.

This is a clear case of where its upto the op to decide as there is no clear guaranteed benefits with the greater cost.

Sad fact is though, we still need to advise that the front bushes are polyed on both!

Can't disagree with any of that at all.

Luckily fitting polly is the easiest of the refirb jobs, and very worthwhile. Provided the remaining wishbone parts are still intact

There's something about the bolt on ball joints I don't trust. Not sure my mistrust is justified though tbh.  A nyloc bolt over a large rivet...? Hmmm.


Anyway. Delighted with my pollys.

[JamesV6CDX]

The correct answer has to be to offer accurate advice e.g.

Lemforders, greater cost but potentialy better quality.

Cheapo's, lower cost but potentialy a slightly greater risk of early failure.

This is a clear case of where its upto the op to decide as there is no clear guaranteed benefits with the greater cost.

Sad fact is though, we still need to advise that the front bushes are polyed on both!

Can't disagree with any of that at all.

Luckily fitting polly is the easiest of the refirb jobs, and very worthwhile. Provided the remaining wishbone parts are still intact

There's something about the bolt on ball joints I don't trust. Not sure my mistrust is justified though tbh.  A nyloc bolt over a large rivet...? Hmmm.


Anyway. Delighted with my pollys.

I suppose there are three bolts though mate... I'd have thought that would be pretty safe, if nylocked?

Perhaps there's an extra strong kind of bolt that could be used? 

[feeutfo]

the cheapo wishbones where exceptionally difficult to get low enough to locate the ball joint in the Knuckle.

Yes!!!!!!

Wholeheartedly agree.

They're a right tinker aren't they. Deeper upright sections on the outer edge off the metal arm? Or restrictive bushes? I was too busy battling to measure up tbh. Poxy things.

[JamesV6CDX]

the cheapo wishbones where exceptionally difficult to get low enough to locate the ball joint in the Knuckle.

Yes!!!!!!

Wholeheartedly agree.

They're a right tinker aren't they. Deeper upright sections on the outer edge off the metal arm? Or restrictive bushes? I was too busy battling to measure up tbh. Poxy things.

I ended up playing dirty and raising the strut a little 

The whole job was a peice of cake, aside of  lowering the wishbone to get the balljoint connected up!!

[VXL V6]

The correct answer has to be to offer accurate advice e.g.

Lemforders, greater cost but potentialy better quality.

Cheapo's, lower cost but potentialy a slightly greater risk of early failure.

This is a clear case of where its upto the op to decide as there is no clear guaranteed benefits with the greater cost.

Sad fact is though, we still need to advise that the front bushes are polyed on both!

Can't disagree with any of that at all.

Luckily fitting polly is the easiest of the refirb jobs, and very worthwhile. Provided the remaining wishbone parts are still intact

There's something about the bolt on ball joints I don't trust. Not sure my mistrust is justified though tbh.  A nyloc bolt over a large rivet...? Hmmm.


Anyway. Delighted with my pollys.

I suppose there are three bolts though mate... I'd have thought that would be pretty safe, if nylocked?

Perhaps there's an extra strong kind of bolt that could be used? 

If you are refurbishing genuine wishbones which haven't been replaced at a dealership in the last few years (the last original ones fitted to cars would be a 2003 vintage at best) then I think you'd want to replace the rear bush and the ball joint... at which point... is it worth refurbishing them???

[feeutfo]

The correct answer has to be to offer accurate advice e.g.

Lemforders, greater cost but potentialy better quality.

Cheapo's, lower cost but potentialy a slightly greater risk of early failure.

This is a clear case of where its upto the op to decide as there is no clear guaranteed benefits with the greater cost.

Sad fact is though, we still need to advise that the front bushes are polyed on both!

Can't disagree with any of that at all.

Luckily fitting polly is the easiest of the refirb jobs, and very worthwhile. Provided the remaining wishbone parts are still intact

There's something about the bolt on ball joints I don't trust. Not sure my mistrust is justified though tbh.  A nyloc bolt over a large rivet...? Hmmm.


Anyway. Delighted with my pollys.

I suppose there are three bolts though mate... I'd have thought that would be pretty safe, if nylocked?

Perhaps there's an extra strong kind of bolt that could be used? 

If you are refurbishing genuine wishbones which haven't been replaced at a dealership in the last few years (the last original ones fitted to cars would be a 2003 vintage at best) then I think you'd want to replace the rear bush and the ball joint... at which point... is it worth refurbishing them???

No.

[Kevin Wood]

The correct answer has to be to offer accurate advice e.g.

Lemforders, greater cost but potentialy better quality.

Cheapo's, lower cost but potentialy a slightly greater risk of early failure.

This is a clear case of where its upto the op to decide as there is no clear guaranteed benefits with the greater cost.

Sad fact is though, we still need to advise that the front bushes are polyed on both!

Can't disagree with any of that at all.

Luckily fitting polly is the easiest of the refirb jobs, and very worthwhile. Provided the remaining wishbone parts are still intact

There's something about the bolt on ball joints I don't trust. Not sure my mistrust is justified though tbh.  A nyloc bolt over a large rivet...? Hmmm.


Anyway. Delighted with my pollys.

I suppose there are three bolts though mate... I'd have thought that would be pretty safe, if nylocked?

Perhaps there's an extra strong kind of bolt that could be used? 

If you are refurbishing genuine wishbones which haven't been replaced at a dealership in the last few years (the last original ones fitted to cars would be a 2003 vintage at best) then I think you'd want to replace the rear bush and the ball joint... at which point... is it worth refurbishing them???

No.

I'd say it depends if you're trying to avoid a suspension setup.

.. and plenty of cars have ball joints bolted to the wishbones without trouble.

[Marks DTM Calib]

@chrisgixer - reading your post, I was thinking exactly what MDTM has said - we need to inform members that quality ones (Lemforder, GM etc) will last longer and cost more, cheaper ones may not last as long but are cheaper.  Then its down to choice.

As Kevin Wood says, some items we definately can say use ABC, avoid XYZ - cam cover gaskets being an obvious one - but not so sure its that clear cut on wishbones.

Maybe, those people who seem to put themselves out to do other people's wishbones could consider collecting old, knackered but good quality wishbones, and check them over, pressing in rear bushes, and polying front. Changing balljoint if necessary.  Not sure how the logistics would work, as I certainly wouldn't want to see those that do put themselves out suffer financial losses etc, or being liable for early failure on it.  Dunno, thinking aloud.


Given my own experiences, I reckon as the car ages, the bushes fail quicker.  Absolutely no idea why. Maybe thats worth determining?

Thats the big sticking point as evidence shows that its a reasonable inference that they dont.....

[Jimbob]

Yup, I had an advisory on duff lemforders after a year!  10k tops!
Brand new Allgerman stock.
Now polly'ed