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[cem_devecioglu]

as far as I see similiar stories serviced to whole media..  even here.. I wont believe even a word of it, until any serious investigation is done and official report is announced.

[redelitev6]

  Just been announced that 2 of the British dead were Newcastle United fans going to New Zealand to watch them in pre-season games 

[Lizzie_Zoom]

Just been announced that 2 of the British dead were Newcastle United fans going to New Zealand to watch them in pre-season games 

And that is the true human aspect of this tragic affair.

There will be many more

[tigers_gonads]

Okay, a few facts on those missile systems

No matter whether it was the Ukrainian, so called rebels or the Russian armed forces, the operator behind the screen would have clearly seen the speed, altitude and track of the aircraft.
If it was military then it would have been squawking a code from its IFF transponder to say who it was.
If it is a civilian aircraft then I believe it would have been squawking its CAA identification code. 

These systems are designed to work as a part of a laired system.
Long, medium (which this missile was) and short range.
Of course the system can work independently if needed.

From what I remember, these systems have basically 3 modes.
1/. Full auto where the missile interrogates the targets IFF and if it doesn't like the answer it gets then it launches.
2/. Semi auto which is the same as auto BUT the final launch decision is by the human operator.
3/. Manual where the aircraft is individually targeted and fired upon 

Highly convenient that the Ukrainians have just released a so called intercepted message by the rebels saying that they thought it was a An26 aircraft.
Well i'll bet every penny i've got that a turboprop transport aircraft cruising at 32000 ft at 250 knots ish looks a hell of a lot different to a Boing 777 cruising at 400 - 450 knots so all this talk of a accident is crap imo.
As far as i'm concerned, it was a deliberate act of murder 

According to the reports, the aircraft flew on largely intact before breaking up on impact.
To me, that says the missile hit on the front quarter of the aircraft killing the crew instantly hence no message from the crew

I think the only question outstanding is WHO did it, not why or how 

[Lizzie_Zoom]

Okay, a few facts on those missile systems

No matter whether it was the Ukrainian, so called rebels or the Russian armed forces, the operator behind the screen would have clearly seen the speed, altitude and track of the aircraft.
If it was military then it would have been squawking a code from its IFF transponder to say who it was.
If it is a civilian aircraft then I believe it would have been squawking its CAA identification code. 

These systems are designed to work as a part of a laired system.
Long, medium (which this missile was) and short range.
Of course the system can work independently if needed.

From what I remember, these systems have basically 3 modes.
1/. Full auto where the missile interrogates the targets IFF and if it doesn't like the answer it gets then it launches.
2/. Semi auto which is the same as auto BUT the final launch decision is by the human operator.
3/. Manual where the aircraft is individually targeted and fired upon 

Highly convenient that the Ukrainians have just released a so called intercepted message by the rebels saying that they thought it was a An26 aircraft.
Well i'll bet every penny i've got that a turboprop transport aircraft cruising at 32000 ft at 250 knots ish looks a hell of a lot different to a Boing 777 cruising at 400 - 450 knots so all this talk of a accident is crap imo.
As far as i'm concerned, it was a deliberate act of murder 

According to the reports, the aircraft flew on largely intact before breaking up on impact.
To me, that says the missile hit on the front quarter of the aircraft killing the crew instantly hence no message from the crew

I think the only question outstanding is WHO did it, not why or how 

The only point I would question is that reports are indicating the wreckage is spread over a wide area, indicating that the aircraft broke up in the air. This rather reminds us of the Lockerbie plane bombing where a similar scattering of wreckage occurred. So it would appear it was either a bomb on board or a missile strike that broke the aircraft apart.

Obviously that will be clarified over the next few hours/days to hopefully settle all the speculation that we are all engaged in.

[Entwood]

SA11 Gadfly (BUK M1) in stand alone mode is not an automatic launching system, it is only auto launching when integrated into an air defence management system .. it requires operator input, which "should" be of a skilled variety .... problem with the "separatists" is they have been given the kit but not the training.

IMHO the fact that the separatists were boasting about downing a cargo plane in the same area at the same time is a clear indication that they screwed up by misidentifying their target and shot down the civilian jet.

Methinks Putin will, eventually, have to admit the separatists did it, as my research dos not show the Ukraine forces having missiles capable of such action - although I could easily be wrong.

[tigers_gonads]

SA11 Gadfly (BUK M1) in stand alone mode is not an automatic launching system, it is only auto launching when integrated into an air defence management system .. it requires operator input, which "should" be of a skilled variety .... problem with the "separatists" is they have been given the kit but not the training.

IMHO the fact that the separatists were boasting about downing a cargo plane in the same area at the same time is a clear indication that they screwed up by misidentifying their target and shot down the civilian jet.

Methinks Putin will, eventually, have to admit the separatists did it, as my research dos not show the Ukraine forces having missiles capable of such action - although I could easily be wrong.

Iirc Nige, the SA 11 / SA 17's are a part of the S300 system that both Ukraine and Russia use hence the laired defence comment 

Agree that if it was the rebels then it would be a case of the muppet behind the button cocking up 

Lizzie, picked up a report from Murdock news that the aircraft broke in two on impact but at the end of the day, if you take the nose of the fuselage of a 777 traveling at 400 knots then a few panels will fall off regardless 

[Lizzie_Zoom]

SA11 Gadfly (BUK M1) in stand alone mode is not an automatic launching system, it is only auto launching when integrated into an air defence management system .. it requires operator input, which "should" be of a skilled variety .... problem with the "separatists" is they have been given the kit but not the training.

IMHO the fact that the separatists were boasting about downing a cargo plane in the same area at the same time is a clear indication that they screwed up by misidentifying their target and shot down the civilian jet.

Methinks Putin will, eventually, have to admit the separatists did it, as my research dos not show the Ukraine forces having missiles capable of such action - although I could easily be wrong.

Iirc Nige, the SA 11 / SA 17's are a part of the S300 system that both Ukraine and Russia use hence the laired defence comment 

Agree that if it was the rebels then it would be a case of the muppet behind the button cocking up 

Lizzie, picked up a report from Murdock news that the aircraft broke in two on impact but at the end of the day, if you take the nose of the fuselage of a 777 traveling at 400 knots then a few panels will fall off regardless

That is very true tigers, and of course rapid decompression could well tear the plane apart, with the further ripping off of components, like wings, in it's plunge to earth.  It could explain why, from what I have seen in the footage taken at the crash sites, the main tail fin has been ripped apart but still partially attached to a piece of bulkhead.

[Rods2]

SA11 Gadfly (BUK M1) in stand alone mode is not an automatic launching system, it is only auto launching when integrated into an air defence management system .. it requires operator input, which "should" be of a skilled variety .... problem with the "separatists" is they have been given the kit but not the training.

IMHO the fact that the separatists were boasting about downing a cargo plane in the same area at the same time is a clear indication that they screwed up by misidentifying their target and shot down the civilian jet.

Methinks Putin will, eventually, have to admit the separatists did it, as my research dos not show the Ukraine forces having missiles capable of such action - although I could easily be wrong.

Spot on, the system requires a skilled and well trained operator. The Russians by accounts I have seen are struggling to recruit Russians with the relevant experience to fight in Ukraine. They are currently heavily advertising for tank drivers and crew. Although there is without a doubt GRU officers in Ukraine, those directly involved in the fighting are 'volunteers' with some previous military experience as part of the Russian 'plausible deniability'.

The SAM system will require a skilled crew and trained operator who is current on the latest operational procedures. The rush to get the system into the field may well have cut many corners on this. Military aircraft in a combat area will very often be being quiet, so no IFF would be transmitted, stopping blue-on-blue is controlled by operational awareness of all the allied parties involved on the day.

A video was put up on Youtube by the Russian terrorists boasting on the shooting down on another Ukrainian AN-24 cargo plane and then hastily removed! I think this has been a mistake by the terrorists as I don't think they deliberately targeted the civil airline.

The West since 1923 have always turned a blind eye to Russians slaughtering Ukrainians, now hopefully they will act even if it is just for their own self interest. This mass build up by the Russians of armour and 'advanced' SAM system in Ukraine since the signing of the EU agreement by the Ukrainian president has been largely ignored by the west and the MSM, with tragic consequences with increasing deaths in Ukraine, including civilians. This mistake by the terrorists has now spread this into the wider world.

If Putin tries to spin his way out of this, he will just be digging himself into a bigger hole. The propaganda on Ukraine in the Russian media has been a pack of lies from day one, but has become totally disgusting in the last few weeks with for example a woman describing how Ukrainian troops dismembered her 9 year old child before killing him, except the mother has now been traced as a Russian actresses and there are many other disgraceful examples. Dr Joseph Goebbels would have been proud.

[Rog]

This one, the last one, the air France one, various others, constant delays and cancellations, I was at the opening day of T5 at Heathrow, lost bags, the tricks and turns of budget airlines, getting to the airport, getting from the airport to where you need to be, and a generally miserable total experience. Why on earth do people still want to fly unless absolutely essential 

[Sir Tigger KC]

The Russians have suggested that it was Ukrainian forces trying to shoot down Putin's plane as he was returning from South America and they got the wrong plane! 

[tigers_gonads]

The Russians have suggested that it was Ukrainian forces trying to shoot down Putin's plane as he was returning from South America and they got the wrong plane! 

There are stupid people on all sides but I doubt any of them are THAT stupid 

[Sir Tigger KC]

The Russians have suggested that it was Ukrainian forces trying to shoot down Putin's plane as he was returning from South America and they got the wrong plane! 

There are stupid people on all sides but I doubt any of them are THAT stupid 

Bit of a stupid suggestion in the first place really.      Time will tell..... 

[05omegav6]

Until the black boxes are recovered and the data analysed, or some actually puts their hands up, this is all conjecture...

There has also been speculation that rather than a Soviet made Buk system, there's a Chinese shoulder fired system capable of hitting targets at 32,000 feet which might have been used...

Imagine that two Malaysian Airlines 777s being involved in catastophic incidents and both with Chinese passengers...

And where better to do that than over an area currently in turmoil

That said, it wouldn't be the first aircraft to fall out of the sky with no warning, and given the recent warnings over threats from reconstructed electrical devices, again where better to drop a passenger aircraft than somewhere that at least three completely unrelated (to the perpetrators cause) groups will be blamed for it...

Say a person had a real grudge against KFC. If they detonated a car bomb outside KFC in Belfast who would get the blame? Certainly not a disgruntled KFC customer... more likely the IRA or one of their ilk... smoke and mirrors...

Also think back to TWA800, which went bang all by itself.

[Steve B]

here is that telephone conversation thing they are talking about

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-28363169