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[chrisgixer]

Am I being naive?

I am completely on the side of the Israelis. I believe completely that Hamas are firing rockets from schools and Hospitals and using the people there as shields, or if returned fire from Israel are then used to show the bully boys in Israel as committing war crimes, while Hamas hold its own people on site.

Apologies for the subject, you know I hate politics etc but I'm flabbergasted at the "one is as bad as the other" approach from the media. Ordinarily I would agree, but this time, I'm seeing a deliberate attempt by Hamas to bate Isreal after the murder of three Israeli youths and the tit for tat that followed.

Ultimately though, Israel are simply giving Hamas the ultimate recruitment drive.



Apologies once again, but I am interested in your pov on the recent hostilities.

[omega3000]

Am I being naive?

I am completely on the side of the Israelis. I believe completely that Hamas are firing rockets from schools and Hospitals and using the people there as shields, or if returned fire from Israel are then used to show the bully boys in Israel as committing war crimes, while Hamas hold its own people on site.

Apologies for the subject, you know I hate politics etc but I'm flabbergasted at the "one is as bad as the other" approach from the media. Ordinarily I would agree, but this time, I'm seeing a deliberate attempt by Hamas to bate Isreal after the murder of three Israeli youths and the tit for tat that followed.

Ultimately though, Israel are simply giving Hamas the ultimate recruitment drive.



Apologies once again, but I am interested in your pov on the recent hostilities.

Thats the way i see it  I think it will come down to who's got enough fire power left , innocent people/children being killed is just atrocious 

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

Am I being naive?

I am completely on the side of the Israelis. I believe completely that Hamas are firing rockets from schools and Hospitals and using the people there as shields, or if returned fire from Israel are then used to show the bully boys in Israel as committing war crimes, while Hamas hold its own people on site.

Apologies for the subject, you know I hate politics etc but I'm flabbergasted at the "one is as bad as the other" approach from the media. Ordinarily I would agree, but this time, I'm seeing a deliberate attempt by Hamas to bate Isreal after the murder of three Israeli youths and the tit for tat that followed.

Ultimately though, Israel are simply giving Hamas the ultimate recruitment drive.



Apologies once again, but I am interested in your pov on the recent hostilities.

I have to disagree. Israel is a rogue state that is dismissive of international law.

Along with North Korea I would say that Israel is just about the most dangerous country on earth.

Others will disagree.

[05omegav6]

First off, remember who made Israel, then forgive them for taking the miral high ground.

Why does a country the size of Wales require nuclear weapons? Because they live next to Palestine and Syria... If Hamas etc keep pressing buttons then eventually the Israelis will snap, then that will be the Middle East problem sorted for a couple of generations

Hamas certainly seem to be crying foul having themselves broken yesterdays ceasefire

[Varche]

I hate wars fought in the supposed name of religion.

Gaza strip. Just how does the world think the inhabitants actually live there each day blockaded in? They don't because no one gives a damn.

Peace? Won't happen until the world leans properly on Israel. I wonder how they would like sanctions? But hey, that ain't going to ever happen.

Maybe the Palestinians ought to start building houses in Israel?

[chrisgixer]

Just to try and narrow this down a bit, or we'll be here for eternity. I'm talking about the resent bout of hostilities. No more, one less. I'm not talking about religion or who was there first. No history at all prior to the three boys murder.

There was a form of peace prior to that. Think of it as factual like a crime scene or a point of law. Who actually did what, where and when. Etc.

I know its all via the media, but that's all we have to go on.

[PhilRich]

Whoever kidnapped & murdered those three boys had a wide agenda that appears to be being fulfilled in Spades! Nuff said.

[cem_devecioglu]

Am I being naive?

I am completely on the side of the Israelis. I believe completely that Hamas are firing rockets from schools and Hospitals and using the people there as shields, or if returned fire from Israel are then used to show the bully boys in Israel as committing war crimes, while Hamas hold its own people on site.

Apologies for the subject, you know I hate politics etc but I'm flabbergasted at the "one is as bad as the other" approach from the media. Ordinarily I would agree, but this time, I'm seeing a deliberate attempt by Hamas to bate Isreal after the murder of three Israeli youths and the tit for tat that followed.

Ultimately though, Israel are simply giving Hamas the ultimate recruitment drive.



Apologies once again, but I am interested in your pov on the recent hostilities.

I have to disagree. Israel is a rogue state that is dismissive of international law.

Along with North Korea I would say that Israel is just about the most dangerous country on earth.

Others will disagree.

dont know the others but I agree..  cant believe a nation who suffered that much and died in those torture camps  now behaving the same


although the behaviours not reflecting the idea of all citizens , more or less its an elected govt..    like mine

[cem_devecioglu]

and one more , hamas and the israel govt are feeding themselves through blood and sometimes I think the same power feeding them

[cem_devecioglu]

Just to try and narrow this down a bit, or we'll be here for eternity. I'm talking about the resent bout of hostilities. No more, one less. I'm not talking about religion or who was there first. No history at all prior to the three boys murder.

There was a form of peace prior to that. Think of it as factual like a crime scene or a point of law. Who actually did what, where and when. Etc.

I know its all via the media, but that's all we have to go on.

now if discuss about why your car start tramlining  regarding your latest tire purchase would that be meaningful

[chrisgixer]

Just to try and narrow this down a bit, or we'll be here for eternity. I'm talking about the resent bout of hostilities. No more, one less. I'm not talking about religion or who was there first. No history at all prior to the three boys murder.

There was a form of peace prior to that. Think of it as factual like a crime scene or a point of law. Who actually did what, where and when. Etc.

I know its all via the media, but that's all we have to go on.

now if discuss about why your car start tramlining  regarding your latest tire purchase would that be meaningful

Yep, that's what I'm talking about. No tramlining (shooting/relative piece) before the tyre purchase (3teenagers murdered) then all hell brakes loose. Simple isn't it. Facts. Not some irrelevant random bollards dragged up from the internet (history)

Let's say Hamas have been quiet for a while. Been planning and sorting out a few rockets. They don't want to be seen as the aggressor so send out some henchmen to pone the wasps nest. Knowing full well the response will be dramatic, they can the claim the Isrealis are the aggressor and respond with their rockets. Knowing Isreal will respond to any rocket site, they naturally place them in schools and hospitals and claim war crimes.

Absolutely no evidence for this theory and not taking a side. It's just how it appears to me given the media coverage.

There's no justification for ANY of it.


There was a ceasefire before the murders. Was there not?

[humbucker]

My imaginary friend is slightly different to your imaginary friend, therefore, prepare to die.

[TheBoy]

I'm talking about the resent bout of hostilities. No more, one less. I'm not talking about religion or who was there first. No history at all prior to the three boys murder.

Like all long running conflicts, it can never just be about what is currently happening, unless both sides can take a leap of faith, such as Northern Ireland etc.

I think the world hoped that with Gaza and West Bank being given over to the Palestinians, the problems would all go away, but the issues still bubbled under the surface (as they still do in NI), and occasionally flare up into what is currently going on.

Hamas, considered by the "West" to be a terrorist organisation, is Israel's preferred leader of the Palestinians, due to being more tolerant than many other Islamic^* groups, such as Isis.

* Those that fight under the name of Islam, even though despised by most Muslims.

[Lizzie_Zoom]

As I know commenting on this very contentious subject, out of all the ones surrounding the Middle East, can lead to polarization of opinion with it all getting personal, I will not say one way or the other how I feel.

I do feel much however, but this is a very long standing issue, going back over 2,000 years, and is a direct clash between cultures, religion, and damn politics.  It will not be resolved on a car forum!

Ohhhhhh, I would love to say a lot more, but no that is it.............!!!

[Kevin Wood]

Like all long running conflicts, it can never just be about what is currently happening, unless both sides can take a leap of faith, such as Northern Ireland etc.

Yep, they are exactly at the state Northern Ireland was, IMHO. Fighting that's been going on for generations, nobody can remember who started it or why, everybody just gets sick and fed up of hearing about it on the news.

They've got to the point where there are two options:

1) Keep fighting endlessly
2) Wipe the slate clean and get round the table to sort it out

Not much point in discussing who's side is to blame. There's too much water passed under that bridge now.

Anyway, where's Tony B.Liar? he's very quiet. I thought he had middle east peace all sorted out.

[aaronjb]

He's busy with a birthday party, I believe: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2707888/In-Blair-s-6m-mansion-celebrity-packed-revelry-Cherie-s-60th-In-Middle-East-devastation-Foie-gras-freebie-Bobby-Davro-peace-envoy-Tony-Blair-partied-Gaza-left-like-this.html

[05omegav6]

Our Tone is probably on his holibobs in Tuscany

As for wiping the slate clean, the Israelis might just wipe the whole region clean if provoked enough

[cem_devecioglu]

Like all long running conflicts, it can never just be about what is currently happening, unless both sides can take a leap of faith, such as Northern Ireland etc.

exactly.. because what is happening today is the consequence of consequences from the past

I think the world hoped that with Gaza and West Bank being given over to the Palestinians, the problems would all go away, but the issues still bubbled under the surface (as they still do in NI), and occasionally flare up into what is currently going on.

the main issue is the hate   and its more like a fire because both sides have losses although palestinians have lost much more relatives in numbers and live under very heavy conditions for long years.. and the other important fact is USA under the effect of American Jews and Israel .. USA could stop it long time ago..  

Hamas, considered by the "West" to be a terrorist organisation, is Israel's preferred leader of the Palestinians,

A very important Fact and truth that rare people admit..

[humbucker]

He's busy with a birthday party, I believe: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2707888/In-Blair-s-6m-mansion-celebrity-packed-revelry-Cherie-s-60th-In-Middle-East-devastation-Foie-gras-freebie-Bobby-Davro-peace-envoy-Tony-Blair-partied-Gaza-left-like-this.html

Classic.

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

As I know commenting on this very contentious subject, out of all the ones surrounding the Middle East, can lead to polarization of opinion with it all getting personal, I will not say one way or the other how I feel.

I do feel much however, but this is a very long standing issue, going back over 2,000 years, and is a direct clash between cultures, religion, and damn politics.  It will not be resolved on a car forum!

Ohhhhhh, I would love to say a lot more, but no that is it.............!!!

Go on Lizzie you know you want to.....

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

Why are people surprised when the palestinians fight to rid their land of the occupiers?

We would do exactly the same in this country.......and rightly so.

As usual Israel is dismissive of the 1967 boundaries set up under international law. They do as they please.

Israel is a nuclear superpower while Palestine is a stoneage country with stoneage weapons, 99% of which are shot down by Israel.

If Obama and Cameron stood up to Israel then perhaps something could be done to stop the bloodshed. At the last count I believe about 3 civilians have been killed in Israel. Compare this to more than 1000  fatalities in Palestine......many of which are children.

[TheBoy]

many of which are children.

No offence intended Opti, but the media keep picking up on this fact as well.

Is a child's life more important than that of its mother? Or of a man not wishing to partake in any action for/against any conflict, or indeed one who is involved?

I don't think so, yet its all we here on the media. A life is a life, whether child or adult.

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

many of which are children.

No offence intended Opti, but the media keep picking up on this fact as well.

Is a child's life more important than that of its mother? Or of a man not wishing to partake in any action for/against any conflict, or indeed one who is involved?

I don't think so, yet its all we here on the media. A life is a life, whether child or adult.

 No offence taken, TB. .....I suppose that people use children as an example because they have more life to lose.

[humbucker]

I don't think so, yet its all we here on the media. A life is a life, whether child or adult.

True, but I guess the subtext is that a child is less able / not able to defend itself.

[chrisgixer]

Like all long running conflicts, it can never just be about what is currently happening, unless both sides can take a leap of faith, such as Northern Ireland etc.

exactly.. because what is happening today is the consequence of consequences from the past

I think the world hoped that with Gaza and West Bank being given over to the Palestinians, the problems would all go away, but the issues still bubbled under the surface (as they still do in NI), and occasionally flare up into what is currently going on.

the main issue is the hate   and its more like a fire because both sides have losses although palestinians have lost much more relatives in numbers and live under very heavy conditions for long years.. and the other important fact is USA under the effect of American Jews and Israel .. USA could stop it long time ago..  

Hamas, considered by the "West" to be a terrorist organisation, is Israel's preferred leader of the Palestinians,

A very important Fact and truth that rare people admit..

Yeah you can tell TB has been on Hollybobs. That may be a very important fact, but it was on the news and media outlets all last week

Good old BBC world service.

[Rods2]

The PLO and Israel reached an agreement to end the troubles many years a go. Yassa Arafat decided just before signing to reject it and carry on fighting Israel on the basis that the peace deal would make his terrorist organisation irrelevant. Hamas deposed and destroyed the PLO and likewise they will never agree a peace deal as it makes them irrelevant.

So I afraid that those that live by the Iranian supplied rockets and guns, must be prepared to die by them.

Sadly, there are always the innocents caught in the crossfire.

The same applies in the Ukraine where the Russian invasion has lead to many civilian causalities along with the shooting down of MH17 by his Russian terrorists. What is becoming increasing apparent is that Putin will do anything, I mean anything to stay in power. Personally I think, if the use of nuclear weapons helps him keep his grip on Russia he will use them, which probably makes him currently the most dangerous misfit on the planet.

[TheBoy]

Like all long running conflicts, it can never just be about what is currently happening, unless both sides can take a leap of faith, such as Northern Ireland etc.

exactly.. because what is happening today is the consequence of consequences from the past

I think the world hoped that with Gaza and West Bank being given over to the Palestinians, the problems would all go away, but the issues still bubbled under the surface (as they still do in NI), and occasionally flare up into what is currently going on.

the main issue is the hate   and its more like a fire because both sides have losses although palestinians have lost much more relatives in numbers and live under very heavy conditions for long years.. and the other important fact is USA under the effect of American Jews and Israel .. USA could stop it long time ago..  

Hamas, considered by the "West" to be a terrorist organisation, is Israel's preferred leader of the Palestinians,

A very important Fact and truth that rare people admit..

Yeah you can tell TB has been on Hollybobs. That may be a very important fact, but it was on the news and media outlets all last week

Good old BBC world service.

Not even turned the telly on chrisgixer. In fact, despite the massive dish, I'm not sure it would pick up anything English

Besides, it's unplugged, as that's where the MiFi is plugged in

[cem_devecioglu]

The PLO and Israel reached an agreement to end the troubles many years a go. Yassa Arafat decided just before signing to reject it and carry on fighting Israel on the basis that the peace deal would make his terrorist organisation irrelevant. Hamas deposed and destroyed the PLO and likewise they will never agree a peace deal as it makes them irrelevant.

So I afraid that those that live by the Iranian supplied rockets and guns, must be prepared to die by them.

Sadly, there are always the innocents caught in the crossfire.

The same applies in the Ukraine where the Russian invasion has lead to many civilian causalities along with the shooting down of MH17 by his Russian terrorists. What is becoming increasing apparent is that Putin will do anything, I mean anything to stay in power. Personally I think, if the use of nuclear weapons helps him keep his grip on Russia he will use them, which probably makes him currently the most dangerous misfit on the planet.

Rods, you are comparing apples and pears really 

[05omegav6]

Indeed, the Israelis have had a chip on there shoulders ever since the Egyptians told them to sod off 3500 years ago, whereas eastern europe has only really been a problem since the end of the Austrohungarian (sp?) Empire

[Rods2]

Indeed, the Israelis have had a chip on there shoulders ever since the Egyptians told them to sod off 3500 years ago, whereas eastern europe has only really been a problem since the end of the Austrohungarian (sp?) Empire

Many of the problems in the Middle East are a result of the French and British Pencils arbitrarily redrawing borders after WWI at the expense of an already declining Ottoman Empire as a punishment where they backed the losing side.

[05omegav6]

Indeed, the Israelis have had a chip on there shoulders ever since the Egyptians told them to sod off 3500 years ago, whereas eastern europe has only really been a problem since the end of the Austrohungarian (sp?) Empire

Many of the problems in the Middle East are a result of the French and British Pencils arbitrarily redrawing borders after WWI at the expense of an already declining Ottoman Empire as a punishment where they backed the losing side.

Just like Africa then...

[cem_devecioglu]

Indeed, the Israelis have had a chip on there shoulders ever since the Egyptians told them to sod off 3500 years ago, whereas eastern europe has only really been a problem since the end of the Austrohungarian (sp?) Empire

Many of the problems in the Middle East are a result of the French and British Pencils arbitrarily redrawing borders after WWI at the expense of an already declining Ottoman Empire as a punishment where they backed the losing side.

 Ottoman empire had no choice at the time..  because winners had decided to chew the empire long time ago.. and they knew it.. and you still owe us 2 warships which has been already paid

[05omegav6]

Indeed, the Israelis have had a chip on there shoulders ever since the Egyptians told them to sod off 3500 years ago, whereas eastern europe has only really been a problem since the end of the Austrohungarian (sp?) Empire

Many of the problems in the Middle East are a result of the French and British Pencils arbitrarily redrawing borders after WWI at the expense of an already declining Ottoman Empire as a punishment where they backed the losing side.

 Ottoman empire had no choice at the time..  because winners had decided to chew the empire long time ago.. and they knew it.. and you still owe us 2 warships which has been already paid

Tell you what Cem, you can have Cyprus back when Gaza goes nuclear

[cem_devecioglu]

Indeed, the Israelis have had a chip on there shoulders ever since the Egyptians told them to sod off 3500 years ago, whereas eastern europe has only really been a problem since the end of the Austrohungarian (sp?) Empire

Many of the problems in the Middle East are a result of the French and British Pencils arbitrarily redrawing borders after WWI at the expense of an already declining Ottoman Empire as a punishment where they backed the losing side.

 Ottoman empire had no choice at the time..  because winners had decided to chew the empire long time ago.. and they knew it.. and you still owe us 2 warships which has been already paid

Tell you what Cem, you can have Cyprus back when Gaza goes nuclear

we already have half

[cem_devecioglu]

and about ISIS


http://politisite.olanola.com/blog/43343003201/ISIS--ISIL-%E2%80%98Made-in-the-USA%E2%80%99-by-the-CIA

[05omegav6]

Aren't they now Formerly Known As ISIS

More to the point, why the rebranding did they have an image problem or summat

[aaronjb]

Aren't they now Formerly Known As ISIS

More to the point, why the rebranding did they have an image problem or summat

Maybe they caught an episode of Archer?

[Sir Tigger KC]

I often wonder what the ordinary Gazan thinks about Hamas continuously prodding their powerful and aggressive next door neighbour! 

[chrisgixer]

I often wonder what the ordinary Gazan thinks about Hamas continuously prodding their powerful and aggressive next door neighbour! 

Finally, of all People Tigger, some more forward thinking.

Nobody seems interested in thinking "at what stage could we of done something differant to avoid the inevitable" from the usual course of events. History is the only record we have to help predict the future. History tells as all we need to know.

Then at the appropriate time do the opposite. That being, if your interested in peace that is, stopping the lynch mob mentality. Specifically, allowing the Police to investigate the three boys murders, rather than the entire Isreali community rising up and looking to destroy any opposing person/group/view/terrorist/whatever. To do that, at this point (in the timeline, so to speak) you use your border controls, walls, and armed forces to control YOUR OWN PEOPLE rather than pint the finger at the other side. As they always do if you listen to the interviews of officials on either side.

Then once you have control, find the culprits and put them through legal chanels.


....but no, we never see that. Which makes both sides as bad as each other.




There. That's the Middle East sorted. NEEXT

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

I often wonder what the ordinary Gazan thinks about Hamas continuously prodding their powerful and aggressive next door neighbour! 

.....not much of a prodding, Sir Tig. Something like  99% of the antiquated rockets that Hamas use don't get through.

3 civilian deaths up to now. Hardly comparable with the losses in Palestine is it.

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

I often wonder what the ordinary Gazan thinks about Hamas continuously prodding their powerful and aggressive next door neighbour! 

Finally, of all People Tigger, some more forward thinking.

Nobody seems interested in thinking "at what stage could we of done something differant to avoid the inevitable" from the usual course of events. History is the only record we have to help predict the future. History tells as all we need to know.

Then at the appropriate time do the opposite. That being, if your interested in peace that is, stopping the lynch mob mentality. Specifically, allowing the Police to investigate the three boys murders, rather than the entire Isreali community rising up and looking to destroy any opposing person/group/view/terrorist/whatever. To do that, at this point (in the timeline, so to speak) you use your border controls, walls, and armed forces to control YOUR OWN PEOPLE rather than pint the finger at the other side. As they always do if you listen to the interviews of officials on either side.

Then once you have control, find the culprits and put them through legal chanels.


....but no, we never see that. Which makes both sides as bad as each other.




There. That's the Middle East sorted. NEEXT

Don't be so surprised Mr Ropeman. Despite being from Dorset  I hear that Sir Tigger is actually quite bright.

[chrisgixer]

I often wonder what the ordinary Gazan thinks about Hamas continuously prodding their powerful and aggressive next door neighbour! 

.....not much of a prodding, Sir Tig. Something like  99% of the antiquated rockets that Hamas use don't get through.

3 civilian deaths up to now. Hardly comparable with the losses Palestine is it.

But he's absolutely correct Doctor. Hamas have one reason to exist, to poke the wasps nest next door in Isreal.

Ordinary Gazans that just want a peaceful life probably think themselves lucky the Isrealis haven't blown them off the planet by now.

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

I often wonder what the ordinary Gazan thinks about Hamas continuously prodding their powerful and aggressive next door neighbour! 

.....not much of a prodding, Sir Tig. Something like  99% of the antiquated rockets that Hamas use don't get through.

3 civilian deaths up to now. Hardly comparable with the losses Palestine is it.

But he's absolutely correct Doctor. Hamas have one reason to exist, to poke the wasps nest next door in Isreal.

Ordinary Gazans that just want a peaceful life probably think themselves lucky the Isrealis haven't blown them off the planet by now.

Of course they do.

But how is this possible with the blockade? No business.....no money......no homes....no schools for the kids to learn in. Limited food water and electricity. No hospitals. Gaza is a living hell.

Eventually Israel will kill all the people in Gaza and then take the land for themselves..... That is how they work.

 

 

[Sir Tigger KC]

Finally, of all People Tigger, some more forward thinking


Don't be so surprised Mr Ropeman. Despite being from Dorset  I hear that Sir Tigger is actually quite bright.

Cheeky buggers!!      Oil av ee know, there be a lot ov brain food in these yer carrots we do crunch round yer! 

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

Finally, of all People Tigger, some more forward thinking


Don't be so surprised Mr Ropeman. Despite being from Dorset  I hear that Sir Tigger is actually quite bright.

Cheeky buggers!!      Oil av ee know, there be a lot ov brain food in these yer carrots we do crunch round yer! 

Here in Lincolnshire we are also carrot crunchers.

Most days I can be seen chewing on  a piece of straw whilst walking around with a piglet under my arm.

[cem_devecioglu]

ok..  if you dont live in Gazza , without water, food, proper health services and under Israel military pressure its easy to talk.. I bet many of us here even cant stand 2 weeks there .. 


And Chris,  its not that simple how you think..  Palestinians is not boring and fingering Israel everyday

[chrisgixer]

Yeeeeahs it is. Lawlessness. Pure and simple. Murder us illegal, be it by lynch mob or rocket.

They don't want to live by laws due to history. What was it Mandela said? "You must learn to forgive" or something along those lines.


It is easy sitting here though, true enough.

[omega3000]

The poor innocent children being killed and left homeless and parent less  Is there no end to the murder 

[Temetsy]

The poor innocent children being killed and left homeless and parent less  Is there no end to the murder 

Not as long as human race exist 

[cem_devecioglu]

Bolivia declares Israel a terrorist state .. and some latin america countries called their ambassadors..not surprising.. 


seems like west politicans need some courage    and a lesson of humanity from those poor countries




http://online.wsj.com/articles/israel-faces-latin-american-backlash-1406770021

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

Bolivia declares Israel a terrorist state .. and some latin america countries called their ambassadors..not surprising.. 


seems like west politicans need some courage    and a lesson of humanity from those poor countries




http://online.wsj.com/articles/israel-faces-latin-american-backlash-1406770021

Israel is certainly a rogue state and not really a true democracy. More of a military democracy. Cem is corrrect when he says that countries in the west need to confront Israel, which is a 'law unto itself'...

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

The poor innocent children being killed and left homeless and parent less  Is there no end to the murder 

Murder is the correct word, Mr Emd. Israel is now free to bomb schools and hospitals because they say these places contain Hamas weapons.........an old blunderbuss, a couple of ancient rockets, and a rusty catapult..

I don't think that they even believe it themselves, but it gives Israel an excuse to flatten Gaza. 

[Rods2]

In Ukraine, Russians are also murdering innocent civilians everyday, including those poor souls on MH17. There was a video, from a western news agency yesterday showing terrorists indiscriminately firing mortars into civilian areas as part of their propaganda war saying it is Ukrainian army using artillery.

[cem_devecioglu]

In Ukraine, Russians are also murdering innocent civilians everyday, including those poor souls on MH17. There was a video, from a western news agency yesterday showing terrorists indiscriminately firing mortars into civilian areas as part of their propaganda war saying it is Ukrainian army using artillery.

whats the relationship between poor palestinians and ukrainians Rods


they are rich , have water, electricty, health services , can move freely and even go abroad for summer vacation


also all community services working non-stop .. even discos and nightlife is active and tourists also traveling to Ukraine.. 


I have a close friend married to an Ukrainian girl and just arrived from there.. and she didnt complain about anything




can you see any bombs dropping
http://www.mylivestreams.com/webcam/independence-square-kiev-live-webcam-kiev-ukraine/11367.html

[cem_devecioglu]

seems like Obama has seen the truth that all Israel attacks are charged to Usa.. which may have expected and known consequences..




http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/183495#.U9qEd-OSxA0


and one correction : Turkey is not on the side of hamas , may be some politicians only..

[cem_devecioglu]

just watch how a city destroyed   


http://www.dailymotion.com/embed/video/x22fzr4

[Lizzie_Zoom]

In Ukraine, Russians are also murdering innocent civilians everyday, including those poor souls on MH17. There was a video, from a western news agency yesterday showing terrorists indiscriminately firing mortars into civilian areas as part of their propaganda war saying it is Ukrainian army using artillery.

You know that for sure do you Rods?  You could stand up in a court of international law and on oath state that?

This thread was about Gaza and the Israeli's, but as usual a wider political point is trying to be made and being simplified in the process.

That is why this thread is unwise.  Far too complicated for simple layman's comment! And none of all this is new.

[Rods2]

In Ukraine, Russians are also murdering innocent civilians everyday, including those poor souls on MH17. There was a video, from a western news agency yesterday showing terrorists indiscriminately firing mortars into civilian areas as part of their propaganda war saying it is Ukrainian army using artillery.

You know that for sure do you Rods?  You could stand up in a court of international law and on oath state that?

This thread was about Gaza and the Israeli's, but as usual a wider political point is trying to be made and being simplified in the process.

That is why this thread is unwise.  Far too complicated for simple layman's comment! And none of all this is new.

No, but there is much that is being corroborated by multiple sources at the moment. Unless a political settlement attempts to hide (it cannot under international law stop people being indited for war crimes), then we will have to wait and see as personally I cannot vouch for anything that I don't see directly, but there are those that do and by being sensible you can vet into trusted and untrusted third-party sources when something is being confirmed from multiple sources. All sides use propaganda in a war, but so far the Ukraine with independently confirmed facts from multiple sources have been the more honest, but they have been consistently inflating the numbers of terrorists killed. It is much more difficult for Ukraine as an open democracy with an independent media to hide things compare to Russia which is an effective dictatorship and now only has a state controlled media with Kremlin approved editors. The events in Ukraine and what is appearing from multiple sources means it has been tagged the first social media war, where there is much more material from a much wider range of sources compared to Syria.

There is much that is being corroborated by multiple independent sources at the moment and I'm sure that much of this will be used in the future by The Hague and UN Human Rights Watch, where there will hopefully be war atrocity prosecutions. There is a new crowd funded website current being set up called Bellingcat by UK person Moses Brown for the forensic collection and investigation of what is happening in conflicts around the world. If you want to see the corroboration of facts from multiple sources on what is happening in Ukraine then go to the daily blog on the Ukraine war by the Interpretor Mag, all news is marked as unconfirmed until it has been confirmed by one or more other sources. All videos are unconfirmed until geo-located, which these days is much easier using Google's street-view (Yes, the Ukraine has been done) as well as journalists on the ground.

Social media has been Russia's weakness with much information (often quickly removed, which is why immediate screen capture is now being used by researchers and journalists) being released this way, very often small comments reveal or confirm something unexpectedly often by the Donbas terrorists on their social media pages or in press conferences with multiple journalists there.

[Lizzie_Zoom]

In Ukraine, Russians are also murdering innocent civilians everyday, including those poor souls on MH17. There was a video, from a western news agency yesterday showing terrorists indiscriminately firing mortars into civilian areas as part of their propaganda war saying it is Ukrainian army using artillery.

You know that for sure do you Rods?  You could stand up in a court of international law and on oath state that?

This thread was about Gaza and the Israeli's, but as usual a wider political point is trying to be made and being simplified in the process.

That is why this thread is unwise.  Far too complicated for simple layman's comment! And none of all this is new.

No, but there is much that is being corroborated by multiple sources at the moment. Unless a political settlement attempts to hide (it cannot under international law stop people being indited for war crimes), then we will have to wait and see as personally I cannot vouch for anything that I don't see directly, but there are those that do and by being sensible you can vet into trusted and untrusted third-party sources when something is being confirmed from multiple sources. All sides use propaganda in a war, but so far the Ukraine with independently confirmed facts from multiple sources have been the more honest, but they have been consistently inflating the numbers of terrorists killed. It is much more difficult for Ukraine as an open democracy with an independent media to hide things compare to Russia which is an effective dictatorship and now only has a state controlled media with Kremlin approved editors. The events in Ukraine and what is appearing from multiple sources means it has been tagged the first social media war, where there is much more material from a much wider range of sources compared to Syria.

There is much that is being corroborated by multiple independent sources at the moment and I'm sure that much of this will be used in the future by The Hague and UN Human Rights Watch, where there will hopefully be war atrocity prosecutions. There is a new crowd funded website current being set up called Bellingcat by UK person Moses Brown for the forensic collection and investigation of what is happening in conflicts around the world. If you want to see the corroboration of facts from multiple sources on what is happening in Ukraine then go to the daily blog on the Ukraine war by the Interpretor Mag, all news is marked as unconfirmed until it has been confirmed by one or more other sources. All videos are unconfirmed until geo-located, which these days is much easier using Google's street-view (Yes, the Ukraine has been done) as well as journalists on the ground.

Social media has been Russia's weakness with much information (often quickly removed, which is why immediate screen capture is now being used by researchers and journalists) being released this way, very often small comments reveal or confirm something unexpectedly often by the Donbas terrorists on their social media pages or in press conferences with multiple journalists there.

Fair enough, and thanks for that explanation Rods

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

In Ukraine, Russians are also murdering innocent civilians everyday, including those poor souls on MH17. There was a video, from a western news agency yesterday showing terrorists indiscriminately firing mortars into civilian areas as part of their propaganda war saying it is Ukrainian army using artillery.

You know that for sure do you Rods?  You could stand up in a court of international law and on oath state that?

This thread was about Gaza and the Israeli's, but as usual a wider political point is trying to be made and being simplified in the process.

That is why this thread is unwise.  Far too complicated for simple layman's comment! And none of all this is new.

No, but there is much that is being corroborated by multiple sources at the moment. Unless a political settlement attempts to hide (it cannot under international law stop people being indited for war crimes), then we will have to wait and see as personally I cannot vouch for anything that I don't see directly, but there are those that do and by being sensible you can vet into trusted and untrusted third-party sources when something is being confirmed from multiple sources. All sides use propaganda in a war, but so far the Ukraine with independently confirmed facts from multiple sources have been the more honest, but they have been consistently inflating the numbers of terrorists killed. It is much more difficult for Ukraine as an open democracy with an independent media to hide things compare to Russia which is an effective dictatorship and now only has a state controlled media with Kremlin approved editors. The events in Ukraine and what is appearing from multiple sources means it has been tagged the first social media war, where there is much more material from a much wider range of sources compared to Syria.

There is much that is being corroborated by multiple independent sources at the moment and I'm sure that much of this will be used in the future by The Hague and UN Human Rights Watch, where there will hopefully be war atrocity prosecutions. There is a new crowd funded website current being set up called Bellingcat by UK person Moses Brown for the forensic collection and investigation of what is happening in conflicts around the world. If you want to see the corroboration of facts from multiple sources on what is happening in Ukraine then go to the daily blog on the Ukraine war by the Interpretor Mag, all news is marked as unconfirmed until it has been confirmed by one or more other sources. All videos are unconfirmed until geo-located, which these days is much easier using Google's street-view (Yes, the Ukraine has been done) as well as journalists on the ground.

Social media has been Russia's weakness with much information (often quickly removed, which is why immediate screen capture is now being used by researchers and journalists) being released this way, very often small comments reveal or confirm something unexpectedly often by the Donbas terrorists on their social media pages or in press conferences with multiple journalists there.

Fair enough, and thanks for that explanation Rods

I think that you two could become an item.......

[Rods2]

In Ukraine, Russians are also murdering innocent civilians everyday, including those poor souls on MH17. There was a video, from a western news agency yesterday showing terrorists indiscriminately firing mortars into civilian areas as part of their propaganda war saying it is Ukrainian army using artillery.

whats the relationship between poor palestinians and ukrainians Rods

they are rich , have water, electricty, health services , can move freely and even go abroad for summer vacation


also all community services working non-stop .. even discos and nightlife is active and tourists also traveling to Ukraine.. 


I have a close friend married to an Ukrainian girl and just arrived from there.. and she didnt complain about anything




can you see any bombs dropping
http://www.mylivestreams.com/webcam/independence-square-kiev-live-webcam-kiev-ukraine/11367.html

I'm sure the 1,200 to date civilians killed in East Ukraine so far are really enjoy all of those comforts tonight!

Innocent civilians being killed is what I though this thread was currently talking about, this applies Palestinians, Ukrainians Syrians, Libyans, Iraqis and people in vast areas of Africa and I'm sure many other trouble spots around the world. When political leaders with their vested self-interests cause wars, then civilians pay a big price when they are caught in the crossfire. They always have been and they always will be, with those that cause the trouble normally walking away at the end of it scot free.

90% of the world's population want to get on with their lives in peace, unfortunately 10% don't and inflict much misery on the 90%.

[Sir Tigger KC]

.. and she didnt complain about anything 

That's unusual! 

[cem_devecioglu]

In Ukraine, Russians are also murdering innocent civilians everyday, including those poor souls on MH17. There was a video, from a western news agency yesterday showing terrorists indiscriminately firing mortars into civilian areas as part of their propaganda war saying it is Ukrainian army using artillery.

whats the relationship between poor palestinians and ukrainians Rods

they are rich , have water, electricty, health services , can move freely and even go abroad for summer vacation


also all community services working non-stop .. even discos and nightlife is active and tourists also traveling to Ukraine.. 


I have a close friend married to an Ukrainian girl and just arrived from there.. and she didnt complain about anything




can you see any bombs dropping
http://www.mylivestreams.com/webcam/independence-square-kiev-live-webcam-kiev-ukraine/11367.html

I'm sure the 1,200 to date civilians killed in East Ukraine so far are really enjoy all of those comforts tonight!

Innocent civilians being killed is what I though this thread was currently talking about, this applies Palestinians, Ukrainians Syrians, Libyans, Iraqis and people in vast areas of Africa and I'm sure many other trouble spots around the world. When political leaders with their vested self-interests cause wars, then civilians pay a big price when they are caught in the crossfire. They always have been and they always will be, with those that cause the trouble normally walking away at the end of it scot free.

90% of the world's population want to get on with their lives in peace, unfortunately 10% don't and inflict much misery on the 90%.

Rods I can understand your sensitivity about Ukraine as your wife is Ukrainian.. but for most of us all are Russians speaking russian language   west give some of the Russians a carrot and now they are freedom fighters




and this 1200 is highly discussable number..

[cem_devecioglu]

.. and she didnt complain about anything 

That's unusual! 

more unusual is many Ukraine "Russians" are now in antalya burning their ar*e

[Rods2]

In Ukraine, Russians are also murdering innocent civilians everyday, including those poor souls on MH17. There was a video, from a western news agency yesterday showing terrorists indiscriminately firing mortars into civilian areas as part of their propaganda war saying it is Ukrainian army using artillery.

whats the relationship between poor palestinians and ukrainians Rods

they are rich , have water, electricty, health services , can move freely and even go abroad for summer vacation


also all community services working non-stop .. even discos and nightlife is active and tourists also traveling to Ukraine.. 


I have a close friend married to an Ukrainian girl and just arrived from there.. and she didnt complain about anything




can you see any bombs dropping
http://www.mylivestreams.com/webcam/independence-square-kiev-live-webcam-kiev-ukraine/11367.html

I'm sure the 1,200 to date civilians killed in East Ukraine so far are really enjoy all of those comforts tonight!

Innocent civilians being killed is what I though this thread was currently talking about, this applies Palestinians, Ukrainians Syrians, Libyans, Iraqis and people in vast areas of Africa and I'm sure many other trouble spots around the world. When political leaders with their vested self-interests cause wars, then civilians pay a big price when they are caught in the crossfire. They always have been and they always will be, with those that cause the trouble normally walking away at the end of it scot free.

90% of the world's population want to get on with their lives in peace, unfortunately 10% don't and inflict much misery on the 90%.

Rods I can understand your sensitivity about Ukraine as your wife is Ukrainian.. but for most of us all are Russians speaking russian language   west give some of the Russians a carrot and now they are freedom fighters




and this 1200 is highly discussable number..

Ukrainians aren't Russians and the Ukrainian language precedes the Russian language as is known as old Russian. In the last 1000 years they have had their own state for about 500 years of that, the rest of the time they have been under mainly Polish and Russian empires.

Kievan Rus was a loose federation of tribes based with its capital in Kiev and covered Ukraine, Greece, Belarus and Western Russia and ran from 882-1283 until its collapse as a result of a Mongol invasion. Ukraine, Belarus and Russia all claim that as the basis of their distinct cultures.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kievan_Rus'

It is like the Irish aren't English they have their own distinct culture. If you think it makes no difference, go to an Irish nationalist bar in Dublin and tell them how much you like the English like they are. Just be prepared to fight or to run very fast and for a very long time.

[05omegav6]

Whoa hold the press...

When did the Irish get cultured

[chrisgixer]

Of course, you know its all caused by farmers, don't you.

[cem_devecioglu]

In Ukraine, Russians are also murdering innocent civilians everyday, including those poor souls on MH17. There was a video, from a western news agency yesterday showing terrorists indiscriminately firing mortars into civilian areas as part of their propaganda war saying it is Ukrainian army using artillery.

whats the relationship between poor palestinians and ukrainians Rods

they are rich , have water, electricty, health services , can move freely and even go abroad for summer vacation


also all community services working non-stop .. even discos and nightlife is active and tourists also traveling to Ukraine.. 


I have a close friend married to an Ukrainian girl and just arrived from there.. and she didnt complain about anything




can you see any bombs dropping
http://www.mylivestreams.com/webcam/independence-square-kiev-live-webcam-kiev-ukraine/11367.html

I'm sure the 1,200 to date civilians killed in East Ukraine so far are really enjoy all of those comforts tonight!

Innocent civilians being killed is what I though this thread was currently talking about, this applies Palestinians, Ukrainians Syrians, Libyans, Iraqis and people in vast areas of Africa and I'm sure many other trouble spots around the world. When political leaders with their vested self-interests cause wars, then civilians pay a big price when they are caught in the crossfire. They always have been and they always will be, with those that cause the trouble normally walking away at the end of it scot free.

90% of the world's population want to get on with their lives in peace, unfortunately 10% don't and inflict much misery on the 90%.

Rods I can understand your sensitivity about Ukraine as your wife is Ukrainian.. but for most of us all are Russians speaking russian language   west give some of the Russians a carrot and now they are freedom fighters




and this 1200 is highly discussable number..

Ukrainians aren't Russians and the Ukrainian language precedes the Russian language as is known as old Russian. In the last 1000 years they have had their own state for about 500 years of that, the rest of the time they have been under mainly Polish and Russian empires.

Kievan Rus was a loose federation of tribes based with its capital in Kiev and covered Ukraine, Greece, Belarus and Western Russia and ran from 882-1283 until its collapse as a result of a Mongol invasion. Ukraine, Belarus and Russia all claim that as the basis of their distinct cultures.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kievan_Rus'

It is like the Irish aren't English they have their own distinct culture. If you think it makes no difference, go to an Irish nationalist bar in Dublin and tell them how much you like the English like they are. Just be prepared to fight or to run very fast and for a very long time.

whatever you say, tell, they are still russians for us


at that century only historians may be interested in your genetic origin..  but the last decision is made by who pays the salary


all the infrastructure in Ukraine is made and paid by Russian public money..  and the technology they have is the same..


and the west now trying to divide and conquer Russia..  this much simple..



and a similar game played in my country

[Rog]

Ok folks, the Gaza crisis will be over very soon now. Thanks to this . . . .

http://www.carmarthenjournal.co.uk/Carmarthen-calls-peace-Gaza/story-22012045-detail/story.html

[05omegav6]

Ok folks, the Gaza crisis will be over very soon now. Thanks to this . . . .

http://www.carmarthenjournal.co.uk/Carmarthen-calls-peace-Gaza/story-22012045-detail/story.html

Ah yes, the power of wishful thinking

[pscocoa]

The UN are making plenty of noise but doing nothing as usual and something I have experienced several times.

If you are going to declare an area safe for refuge you have a responsibility to make sure that refuge is not infiltrated by terrorists and if it is you report same to a unit whose job it is to be in contact with Israel on next steps.

So we are talking some sort of perimeter space around a UN refuge which is to be properly policed and if Hamas rocket and mortar people infiltrate then you tell the people you are protecting why their safety is threatened and work with Hamas and Israel to deal with problem.

UN are pathetic when it comes to action.

[cem_devecioglu]

The UN are making plenty of noise but doing nothing as usual and something I have experienced several times.

If you are going to declare an area safe for refuge you have a responsibility to make sure that refuge is not infiltrated by terrorists and if it is you report same to a unit whose job it is to be in contact with Israel on next steps.

So we are talking some sort of perimeter space around a UN refuge which is to be properly policed and if Hamas rocket and mortar people infiltrate then you tell the people you are protecting why their safety is threatened and work with Hamas and Israel to deal with problem.

UN are pathetic when it comes to action.

agreed..

[chrisgixer]

Indeed, makes perfect sense, and hadn't even considered any of that.