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[Bigron]

I have a basic hot water system, DHW tank plus immersion heater, which obviosly has quite low pressure for an upstairs bathroom shower. That's fine for me, as I prefer a good long soak in the bath and the pressure is good enough for the shower fitting on the bath taps for hair washing, but 'er indoors likes a shower and the standing-up height of this fitting is woefully inadequate.
Is it possible to use a pump of some sort to boost the pressure, especially as the cold water is mains fed, and therefore quite high pressure?

TIA.
Ron.

[Andy B]

how about an electric shower? 

[RossPhim]

Is it possible to use a pump of some sort to boost the pressure, especially as the cold water is mains fed, and therefore quite high pressure?
TIA.
Ron.

Have you thought about a power shower instead?

Edit : I must type faster! 

[Bigron]

Electric shower = rewiring, new consumer unit, re-tiling, replumbing and lots of disruption!

Ron.

[Kevin Wood]

Yes, there are plenty of options, but you'll need to know the difference between Essex Flanges, Surrey Flanges and Warix Flanges first, so some research to do.

In short, you can indeed pump the output of your hot water tank into a shower mixer using a separate pump, or you can buy shower units with a built-in pump. If the only option for cold water is direct from the mains do check that they will handle the pressure differential that will result.

Failing that, if the mains pressure is sufficiently high, you might get an improvement by fitting an electrically heated shower. You'll need to run it from a dedicated radial circuit from the consumer unit, and the more kilowatts you can throw at it, the better the flow rate will be.

[Lizzie Zoom]

Electric shower = rewiring, new consumer unit, re-tiling, replumbing and lots of disruption!

Ron.

In my time Ron I have fitted a number of electric showers and providing your consumer unit is up to date with spare fuse space and load capacity it is straightforward enough, if you plan your cable and pipe routes carefully.

I have also fitted mixer showers and that can involve far more work.  Lifting the tank in the loft (if you have one) to increase the pressure, plus running both a hot and cold water supply, taken as near as possible to the hot water feed pipe from the tank (if there is one) to gain the correct pressure levels, can mean lifting floorboards so can involve far more work than fitting an electric shower.

[Bigron]

Kevin, all this talk about flanges sounds quite rude! Boosting the output from the DHW cylinder sounds like a good plan, as there is room (and mains power) in the airing cupboard. Just an inline pump, yes?
Lizzie, you paint a frightening picture; I do not want to crawl into my cramped loft and lift the tank - not much height to raise it to, either.

Thanks,
Ron.

[Lizzie Zoom]

Kevin, all this talk about flanges sounds quite rude! Boosting the output from the DHW cylinder sounds like a good plan, as there is room (and mains power) in the airing cupboard. Just an inline pump, yes?
Lizzie, you paint a frightening picture; I do not want to crawl into my cramped loft and lift the tank - not much height to raise it to, either.

Thanks,
Ron.

Whimp!!

 

[Entwood]

Electric shower = rewiring, new consumer unit, re-tiling, replumbing and lots of disruption!

Ron.

In my time Ron I have fitted a number of electric showers and providing your consumer unit is up to date with spare fuse space and load capacity it is straightforward enough, if you plan your cable and pipe routes carefully.

I have also fitted mixer showers and that can involve far more work.  Lifting the tank in the loft (if you have one) to increase the pressure, plus running both a hot and cold water supply, taken as near as possible to the hot water feed pipe from the tank (if there is one) to gain the correct pressure levels, can mean lifting floorboards so can involve far more work than fitting an electric shower.

... but is well worth doing   I now have a power shower with both hot and cold pumped through a thermostatic mixer to a "deluge" head. As the DHW runs quite hot, and the cold water supply is of poor pressure (which is why an electric shower has always been useless), I also fitted an additional cold water tank in the loft. No danger of running out of water even if 4 folks shower in a short time ..

Wish I'd done it years ago ..

[TD]

I lived in a bungalow once, that the hot water pressure was dismal....so
I had a pump fitted to the flow from the hot water tank so every hot tap was pumped...and
had a power shower fitted with the feeds being taken from the hot in between the flow from the hot water tank and the pump and the cold feed being taken from the cold feed to the hot water tank.
I also had to have a 'coffin' cold water tank fitted so it had enough water to supply the hot water tank and the cold for the shower.....tho the pump for the power shower was 3bar.....and used to empty the hot water tank in 10 mins  but the shower was amazing 

[Bigron]

Kevin, all this talk about flanges sounds quite rude! Boosting the output from the DHW cylinder sounds like a good plan, as there is room (and mains power) in the airing cupboard. Just an inline pump, yes?
Lizzie, you paint a frightening picture; I do not want to crawl into my cramped loft and lift the tank - not much height to raise it to, either.

Thanks,
Ron.

Whimp!!

 

Not a wimp, Lizzie - just a fat bastard that doesn't want to get stuck! 

Ron.

[Bigron]

Er, NO comments about eating loo much honey, please1

Ron.

[Sir Tigger KC]

Yes, there are plenty of options, but you'll need to know the difference between Essex Flanges, Surrey Flanges and Warix Flanges first, so some research to do.

This is Lord Opti's department.  So no need for research, as I'm sure he'll be along soon with some sage advice! 

[Lizzie Zoom]

Kevin, all this talk about flanges sounds quite rude! Boosting the output from the DHW cylinder sounds like a good plan, as there is room (and mains power) in the airing cupboard. Just an inline pump, yes?
Lizzie, you paint a frightening picture; I do not want to crawl into my cramped loft and lift the tank - not much height to raise it to, either.

Thanks,
Ron.

 

Whimp!!



Not a wimp, Lizzie - just a fat bastard that doesn't want to get stuck! 

Ron.

 

[Viral_Jim]

I had a similar issue in our place, 1 mains (combi boiler) fed shower and one electric. However, the cold into the house is only 15mm. So, barely good enough to run the mains shower alone.

My solution was to fit a loft tank and one of these (or very similar):
Salamander pump

Works a treat and powers up the electric shower with good pressure. I then half closed the isolating valve that fills the tank, so it only drip feeds as the tank empties. Result: you can now run both showers at once with decent pressure . Fitting the same on your tank outflow should cure your issues. 

In terms of connections, this is 2x22mm push fittings and can be wired off to a three pin plug. You will need a negative rather than positive head pump as (most likely) the pressure/flow from your tank won't be enough to trigger a +ve head pump. In my case it would only trigger if I turned on both the shower and another tap - useless.

So far my salamander pump has been working just fine for about 9 months, you can hear it when its on, but I wouldn't say its noisy.

Hope this is helpful.

[Bigron]

Thanks Jimmy; I'm getting more options that I can shake a stick at! I'm not entirely clear what you mean, not having done any more plumbing than putting a clod water tap in the garden, but I can Google a Salamander.
Oh, and I changed the 40-year-old Portsmouth valve in the loft tank for a posh Fluidmaster one - much quieter now.
I was slimmer then, and could get in there. And out again! 

Ron.

[Viral_Jim]

No worries. So, a bit of explanation on pumps, or at least what I understand of them. 

Positive head relies on a “pull” from the tap, shower or whatever. The pumpsenses the flow of water through it and then kicks in. Fine if you’re in a 3 storey house with a loft tank and switch on a ground floor. But if you only have a few feet of drop, it won’t generate enough pull to trigger the pump.

Negative head is a bit like a workshop compressor, it has a pressure vessel on it and fires the pump when it detects a drop of pressure in the vessel. So as soon as you turn on the tap, the pressure vessel pushes the water down the pipe, the pressure drops and the pump kicks in.

If you want to fit one, look up speedfit piping on screwfix’s Website. This stuff is great, it’s locking push fit pipework. So there’s no soldering or any nonsense like that. All you’d have to do is cut a section out of the outflow pipe from your tank and route it via the pump. Start to finish it should take less than an hour to do. 

I’ve now re-plumbed two houses in speedfit so if you have any questions on it, I may be able to help 

[Bigron]

Sounds like the pressure-activated taps in my caravan?
Speedfit is plastic, isn't it? Does it mate with copper, or does the entire system need to be Speedfit?
Any recommendations regarding the pump?
My apologies for all the questions! 

Ron

[ballcock50]

A few comments to make on this subject. Fitting a pump on your hot water outlet is not a problem but not always ideal as the flow through a basin tap would be excessive if allowing the pump to operate properly, The supplies to a mixer shower should be a balanced pressure ideally of the same header tank / tanks. If using mains supply ( again not recommended ) this can be adjusted with a pressure reducing valve inline. The ideal set up is a large enough storage tank to supply both the hot and cold water needs. with the cold water supply tank connection lower than that of the hot to ensure if a lack of water occurs the hot supply runs out before the cold, avoiding scalding. Your pump can be operated off a light pull switch if that helps. Speed fit fittings are able to be used on copper pipe but ensure you use a rotary pipe cutter or if using a hack saw file a taper on the ends as the sharp end will slice a nick in the "O" ring seal when you push it on.

[Bigron]

Good points, thank you.
No way can I even fit a large tank in my loft, never mind the weight on my poor rafters, and I have mains feed to all cold taps in the house, the only stored water is for the DHW feed.
When you say "operated off a pullcord switch", do you mean that it cannot be left on all the time, or is that just for when left unused for holidays, for instance?
If the latter, then the pullcord switch could be sited near the loft hatch, like my loft lights switch. 

Ron.

[ronnyd]

When i had our first power shower fitted by British Gas, some years ago, this needed a separate pump in the loft. When that went west i got a Triton with a built in pump for about £60 and my plumber fitted it for £25.

[Kevin Wood]

Good points, thank you.
No way can I even fit a large tank in my loft, never mind the weight on my poor rafters, and I have mains feed to all cold taps in the house, the only stored water is for the DHW feed.
When you say "operated off a pullcord switch", do you mean that it cannot be left on all the time, or is that just for when left unused for holidays, for instance?
If the latter, then the pullcord switch could be sited near the loft hatch, like my loft lights switch. 

Ron.

If you get a suitable shower mixer valve, you could run a pump for the hot water feed, and a pressure regulating valve and check valve on the cold water feed and it would probably work OK.

[Andy H]

I  would replace the cylinder with an unvented cylinder.

Have a look for 'Megaflo'.

No pumps or electrickery in the  bathroom and all the taps get good pressure.

[ballcock50]

Good points, thank you.
No way can I even fit a large tank in my loft, never mind the weight on my poor rafters, and I have mains feed to all cold taps in the house, the only stored water is for the DHW feed.
When you say "operated off a pullcord switch", do you mean that it cannot be left on all the time, or is that just for when left unused for holidays, for instance?
If the latter, then the pullcord switch could be sited near the loft hatch, like my loft lights switch. 

If you fit a standard light switch pull cord next to shower unit you can use it to operate the pump only when needed for the shower, A pressure reducing valve is like an adjustable control to set the pressure to be equal. on a lot of mixer showers the flow control isolates the outlet to the shower head and not the incoming supplies, so if the non return valve in the mixer valve fails you can back fill your storage tank form the mains supply, This can also happen with various mixer taps that are not design for mixed pressure. An unvented hot water system would be an option but can prove expensive and must be installed by a registered installer.

[Marks DTM Calib]

You don't need any great deal of head for a positive pressure pump and its generally easier to site the pump on the fllor by the cylinder anyway.

As for pumps, I personally (and from experience) would not advise on a Salamander as the seals fail after a few years and on most of their range, cant be replaced. Stuart Turner pumps are higher quality and far better serviced, plus shop around and they can be got for similar cash.

I had a Salamander 3Bar pump for about 5 years and this year it croaked, replaced with a Stuart Turner and its both quieter, more compact and easier to fit.

Oh yes, do it in copper with solder, not the crappy push fit as the temperature and pressure cycling is not got long term on the short cut fittings.

[Viral_Jim]

You don't need any great deal of head for a positive pressure pump and its generally easier to site the pump on the fllor by the cylinder anyway.

As for pumps, I personally (and from experience) would not advise on a Salamander as the seals fail after a few years and on most of their range, cant be replaced. Stuart Turner pumps are higher quality and far better serviced, plus shop around and they can be got for similar cash.

I had a Salamander 3Bar pump for about 5 years and this year it croaked, replaced with a Stuart Turner and its both quieter, more compact and easier to fit.

Oh yes, do it in copper with solder, not the crappy push fit as the temperature and pressure cycling is not got long term on the short cut fittings.

The salamander info is interesting, I hadn't come across many bad reports online (no more than any other brand).

Regarding the push fit, is there any actual basis for the assertion they don't last? The JG fittings carry a 25yr warranty against manufacturing and material defect. My personal (family) experience is a total of about 20yrs of use, 10yrs in parents' house (and counting), 5yrs then 4yrs in two of mine and no leaks in that time.

All the problems I've read about online have been down to poor installs. Namely:
- poorly fitted/missing pipe inserts
- failure to do up the locking rings on fittings
- copper burrs fouling o-rings due to not being cleaned correctly after cutting

As far as I can tell, copper gives only two advantages over plastic, namely:
- for a given outer diameter of pipe, you have a greater inner diameter for water to pass through.
- where space is tight, the fittings are significantly less bulky.

I know the "professionals" don't like pushfit, but then why would they, it turns piping a house from a skilled to a semi-skilled job, so they are bound to extol the virtues of their craft. Then again, around 30-40% of my entire renovation time on our latest house has been spent putting right what various professionals have thought was acceptable.

[YZ250]

As mine is a gravity system, I fitted a Stuart Turner pump on the floor in my Airing cupboard. The cold feed comes from the cold water loft tank and the hot feed comes from the hot water cylinder. It's a lot of pipework as my cold water feed comes in to the Airing cupboard from the loft tank, down to the pump, then back up in to the loft, across the loft and then down the bathroom wall. The hot feed from the cylinder goes to the inlet on the pump and then up to the loft, across the loft and down to the bathroom. It has worked great for many years now, giving good pressure to the thermostatic bar shower controls.
The pump is sat on a small slab and initially it could be heard humming through the floorboards when downstairs. I resolved this by sitting the slab on a square of sports matting (rubber matting) and it is barely audible now. 

[Kevin Wood]

I'd second the recommendation for Stuart Turner pumps. I've fitted them in both the previous house and the current one, where the installation has been in place for 14 years without a hitch.

Of course, there's no reason to do much more than fit the pump if the current tap and shower fittings are working OK and will cope with the extra pressure. (If the cold side is mains fed, then that's quite likely).

Check valves would be advisable to prevent one side of the mixer backfeeding into the other (and would probably be a legal requirement on the cold side).

[YZ250]

.....................
Regarding the push fit, is there any actual basis for the assertion they don't last? The JG fittings carry a 25yr warranty against manufacturing and material defect. 

The only push fit connectors I had in my system (copper throughout) is on the anti-vibration pipes coming directly off the pump. They are threaded on the pump side but push fit on the other end. When I was building my kitchen extension I had to remove the boiler so I was totally dependant on the hot water cylinder immersion heater. I hadn't realised that the cylinder tank stat was set slightly too high, although I found this out when water started coming through the sitting room ceiling. The hot water in the cylinder had reached a higher than usual temperature and the push fits (on the hot side only) had let go. As the fittings on the cold side were fine I can only conclude that the extra heat in the water temperature had fried the O Rings. 
I have since changed this set up to an adapted compression fitting.

[Lizzie Zoom]

.....................
Regarding the push fit, is there any actual basis for the assertion they don't last? The JG fittings carry a 25yr warranty against manufacturing and material defect. 

The only push fit connectors I had in my system (copper throughout) is on the anti-vibration pipes coming directly off the pump. They are threaded on the pump side but push fit on the other end. When I was building my kitchen extension I had to remove the boiler so I was totally dependant on the hot water cylinder immersion heater. I hadn't realised that the cylinder tank stat was set slightly too high, although I found this out when water started coming through the sitting room ceiling. The hot water in the cylinder had reached a higher than usual temperature and the push fits (on the hot side only) had let go. As the fittings on the cold side were fine I can only conclude that the extra heat in the water temperature had fried the O Rings. 
I have since changed this set up to an adapted compression fitting.

Plumber friends of mine would never use push-fit joints, and nor would I.  The simplicity and long term security of pre-soldered joints gives me no reason for even considering the 'amatuer' route.  The joy in seeing the solder show around a pre-soldered, or even plain metal coupling is so satisfying, and you know that will last.  I have heard of cases where the push-fit joints have popped off due to various reasons, including a reaction to metal fittings.  Why risk it?

[Andy B]

I'd not use push fit connectors  .... however my kitchen was fitted with them about 13 years ago & so far .... 

[STEMO]

Every new build I've seen has plastic push fit throughout, hot and cold. They are here to stay, like them or not. Our house had a new boiler and extra rads fitted about two years before we moved in. There are bits of plastic connected to copper everywhere, looks like a kid's been playing with a construction kit 
One thing about plastic...you don't get pipe hammer. 

[Viral_Jim]

Plumber friends of mine would never use push-fit joints, and nor would I.  The simplicity and long term security of pre-soldered joints gives me no reason for even considering the 'amatuer' route.  The joy in seeing the solder show around a pre-soldered, or even plain metal coupling is so satisfying, and you know that will last. I have heard of cases where the push-fit joints have popped off due to various reasons, including a reaction to metal fittings.  Why risk it?

Alternatively, why spend more time/effort (or cost if paying someone) to get no better result?

As above, plumbers will always extol the virtues of something that the average punter less likely to be able to do themselves. That's just common sense. Its no different to taking your car to a main dealer for a service, they will doubtless tell you at great length why you will get a superior service from them (at some multiple of the cost).

YZ250, I know the ones you mean! I binned the ones that came with mine and replaced them with JG Speedfit tails as the originals looked naff!

A further advantage to plastic, which is very relevant if you rent out a certain type of house, is that there is no value to the tennant in pulling your pipework out to sell for scrap 

[Marks DTM Calib]

You don't need any great deal of head for a positive pressure pump and its generally easier to site the pump on the fllor by the cylinder anyway.

As for pumps, I personally (and from experience) would not advise on a Salamander as the seals fail after a few years and on most of their range, cant be replaced. Stuart Turner pumps are higher quality and far better serviced, plus shop around and they can be got for similar cash.

I had a Salamander 3Bar pump for about 5 years and this year it croaked, replaced with a Stuart Turner and its both quieter, more compact and easier to fit.

Oh yes, do it in copper with solder, not the crappy push fit as the temperature and pressure cycling is not got long term on the short cut fittings.

The salamander info is interesting, I hadn't come across many bad reports online (no more than any other brand).

Regarding the push fit, is there any actual basis for the assertion they don't last? The JG fittings carry a 25yr warranty against manufacturing and material defect. My personal (family) experience is a total of about 20yrs of use, 10yrs in parents' house (and counting), 5yrs then 4yrs in two of mine and no leaks in that time.

All the problems I've read about online have been down to poor installs. Namely:
- poorly fitted/missing pipe inserts
- failure to do up the locking rings on fittings
- copper burrs fouling o-rings due to not being cleaned correctly after cutting

As far as I can tell, copper gives only two advantages over plastic, namely:
- for a given outer diameter of pipe, you have a greater inner diameter for water to pass through.
- where space is tight, the fittings are significantly less bulky.

I know the "professionals" don't like pushfit, but then why would they, it turns piping a house from a skilled to a semi-skilled job, so they are bound to extol the virtues of their craft. Then again, around 30-40% of my entire renovation time on our latest house has been spent putting right what various professionals have thought was acceptable.

Personal experience sadly, when we first moved into this property I installed the showers (pre the Salamander pumps actually) and bashed it in with a load of push fit for convenience (the existing setup was so broke you turned on the shower, a trickle emerged from the shower head and ran down the shower hose/wall)..

They are all well and good IF you don't disturb them which may be fine for under floor installs etc. however, 10 years later and I had to do some work in the loft where I spotted three leaking push fits. Strip down showed the seals had gone hard and on consulting my cousin (plumber) I am told its a common issue but, they last well outside of any guarantee period and are quick, easy and low skilled to install.

End of the day, you cant beat a copper pipe with copper fittings giving a rigid install (properly supported).

The Salamander I had (an ESP100) suffered from the shaft seals leaking which appears to be standard as they age, this got into the motor and resulted in tripping of the ELCB but, you cant replace the seals (you can the actual casing seals but not the shaft seals).

[Bigron]

Gentlemen (and lady), I am grateful for all of the caluable information. When I asked the question, I didn't know if it was a simple job or a pain to do, and it seems it could be either!
If I understand you correctly Kevin, the quick and dirty fix would be to put a pump in the outlet from the DHW cylinder in the airing cupboard (where there is also electrical power available, so no rewiring), and leave it at that?
The cold feed to all taps is direct mains.
As I said earlier, the shower fitment is simply push-fit hoses on the bath taps, so if the above is what you meant, would that be ok with my shower fitment?
I will eventually fit a more elegant shower fitting, but for domestic harmony in the shortest time span, I want to stop the moaning NOW! 

Ron.

[Entwood]

Gentlemen (and lady), I am grateful for all of the caluable information. When I asked the question, I didn't know if it was a simple job or a pain to do, and it seems it could be either!
If I understand you correctly Kevin, the quick and dirty fix would be to put a pump in the outlet from the DHW cylinder in the airing cupboard (where there is also electrical power available, so no rewiring), and leave it at that?
The cold feed to all taps is direct mains.
As I said earlier, the shower fitment is simply push-fit hoses on the bath taps, so if the above is what you meant, would that be ok with my shower fitment?
I will eventually fit a more elegant shower fitting, but for domestic harmony in the shortest time span, I want to stop the moaning NOW! 

Ron.

Instant solution - Buy bucket, punch holes in bottom, suspend from ceiling ....   

[Bigron]

I expected a more elegant engineering solution from you than that, Nige!
What about temperature and flow-rate control?   

Ron.

[Bigron]

Anyway, what do you mean, BUY a bucket? I've already got a rusty one in the garden suitably equipped with precision holes, and the rust stains might seem like a suntan! 

Ron.

[Shackeng]

I have had a Monsoon 3.0 Bar twin in/out for about 40 years and it works brilliantly, supplying two showers at full belt with no problem. Made by Stuart Turner I think, but quite pricey now. I have the same sort of setup as you.

Regarding push fittings, I owned some small rental properties a few years ago, where, to improve water provision for bathrooms and kitchens, it was sometimes necessary to think creatively, and I found that if good quality push fittings were used correctly, it allowed me to resolve issues that were otherwise insurmountable. In a recent extension to my own house, while I always prefer to use copper pipe, again, to allow some new radiator pipes to be hidden, it was necessary to use push fit.
When installing a water softener, to provide a non-softened tap in the kitchen at the rear of the house, I also used push fit to provide a single feed from the rising main in the downstairs cloakroom of my house up inside the soil pipe trunking, via two right angles, into and across the loft, down via the airing cupboard then connecting to copper for the rest of a boxed in run with other pipes. Without the use of push fit, this would have been impossible without serious internal disruption.
I moved my son's bathroom upstairs in his terraced house, again, almost impossible without serious problems.
I mention all these jobs as I have never, touching wood, had a problem with any of the fittings.

[Entwood]

I expected a more elegant engineering solution from you than that, Nige!
What about temperature and flow-rate control?   

Ron.

Speed was the driver, but a little thought would inform you that ..

Temperature control ... simply done by regulating the temperature of the water placed in the bucket ...

Flow control ... regulated by the calibration of  the size and number of holes punched in the bucket .. hence the requirement to use a new bucket and NOT an un-calibrated rusty one ....

[Bigron]

You are nearly as daft as I am, Mr. Riley! 

Ron.

[Bigron]

I have had a Monsoon 3.0 Bar twin in/out for about 40 years and it works brilliantly, supplying two showers at full belt with no problem. Made by Stuart Turner I think, but quite pricey now. I have the same sort of setup as you.

Regarding push fittings, I owned some small rental properties a few years ago, where, to improve water provision for bathrooms and kitchens, it was sometimes necessary to think creatively, and I found that if good quality push fittings were used correctly, it allowed me to resolve issues that were otherwise insurmountable. In a recent extension to my own house, while I always prefer to use copper pipe, again, to allow some new radiator pipes to be hidden, it was necessary to use push fit.
When installing a water softener, to provide a non-softened tap in the kitchen at the rear of the house, I also used push fit to provide a single feed from the rising main in the downstairs cloakroom of my house up inside the soil pipe trunking, via two right angles, into and across the loft, down via the airing cupboard then connecting to copper for the rest of a boxed in run with other pipes. Without the use of push fit, this would have been impossible without serious internal disruption.
I moved my son's bathroom upstairs in his terraced house, again, almost impossible without serious problems.
I mention all these jobs as I have never, touching wood, had a problem with any of the fittings.

Thanks Shackeng. I'm not afraid of copper, either yorkshire or compression, having used both in the past, even if for only simple jobs, but I'm assuming that, as in all things, quality fitttings rather than cheap crap are required?
Just for now, I will adopt Nige's solution with my rusty bucket, but I will definitely "go posh" as soon as I can.....

Ron.