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[Alnico Blue]

Thoughts on this please Gentlemen ( & of course Ladies)

Company is insisting that the employee/ driver of the van they supply us with ,  is now going to be  responsible for the first £1000  in any accident/ damage claim on these vehicles .  No private use , just used to and from work and all travelling to an average of 12  jobs during the working day .

Can they do this ?

[STEMO]

I'm no legal expert, Al, but I'd say NO! You really need to take proper advice..but...it's the old story of 'If you refuse to do it, we'll find someone who will'. Bastards.

[STEMO]

Is this £1000 their insurance excess?

[dave the builder]

Is it in a contract of employment that you signed 

maybe you can get a cheap indemnity insurance to cover it ?

or ,take the BL cars line .....

EVERYBODY OUT 

[Alnico Blue]

I'm no legal expert, Al, but I'd say NO! You really need to take proper advice..but...it's the old story of 'If you refuse to do it, we'll find someone who will'. Bastards.

Nothing in my present contract mentions anything about any insurance claim excess.

Guessing we are going to get a "sign here" please notification to accept this . 

Heres an example though . . .one of the younger guys (29 ) came back to his van to find the drivers door damaged & mirror smashed off .   Cost to repair according to the logistics manager  . . .£3000 . . FFS !

[ronnyd]

Sounds like the are trying to abdicate their responsabilities to save on their insurance costs, crafty sods.

[Alnico Blue]

Is it in a contract of employment that you signed 

maybe you can get a cheap indemnity insurance to cover it ?

or ,take the BL cars line .....

EVERYBODY OUT 

I did mention that , managers reply  . . . . "whats that then ? " 

[STEMO]

Is it in a contract of employment that you signed 

maybe you can get a cheap indemnity insurance to cover it ?

or ,take the BL cars line .....

EVERYBODY OUT 

I did mention that , managers reply  . . . . whats that then 

Nowt to do with him. You take you own insurance out. Still leaves you out of pocket, though.

[Alnico Blue]

Is it in a contract of employment that you signed 

maybe you can get a cheap indemnity insurance to cover it ?

or ,take the BL cars line .....

EVERYBODY OUT 

I did mention that , managers reply  . . . . whats that then 

Nowt to do with him. You take you own insurance out. Still leaves you out of pocket, though.

yes I understand it has nothing to do with him Steve,   . . .but was gobsmacked , he did not know what it was .

[Alnico Blue]

I might just stand firm on this one & flatly refuse to accept it   . . .argue it out  . . .try and

source some legallity on it & see where it goes.

In the mood for a fight with these jumped up pen pushing keyboard pressing idiots 

Company excess for each claim is £1200 I have been told 

[STEMO]

Is it in a contract of employment that you signed 

maybe you can get a cheap indemnity insurance to cover it ?

or ,take the BL cars line .....

EVERYBODY OUT 

I did mention that , managers reply  . . . . whats that then 

Nowt to do with him. You take you own insurance out. Still leaves you out of pocket, though.

yes I understand it has nothing to do with him Steve,   . . .but was gobsmacked , he did not know what it was .

Right. Well. You need to go in the morning and tell him he's a tosser and he can stuff his job. Report back here what happens. 

[STEMO]

I might just stand firm on this one & flatly refuse to acceptit   . . .argue it out  . . .try and

source some legallity on it & see where it goes.

In the mood for a fight with these jumped up pen pushing keyboard pressing idiots 

OK, don't tell him he's a tosser, then. Tell him you're signing nowt till you've taken advice.

[Alnico Blue]

Is it in a contract of employment that you signed 

maybe you can get a cheap indemnity insurance to cover it ?

or ,take the BL cars line .....

EVERYBODY OUT 

I did mention that , managers reply  . . . . whats that then 

Nowt to do with him. You take you own insurance out. Still leaves you out of pocket, though.

yes I understand it has nothing to do with him Steve,   . . .but was gobsmacked , he did not know what it was .

Right. Well. You need to go in the morning and tell him he's a tosser and he can stuff his job. Report back here what happens. 

I'm too slippery for that Steve ...got a similar plan  . .but not quite as blatent as your suggestion 

[dave the builder]

I might just stand firm on this one & flatly refuse to acceptit   . . .argue it out  . . .try and

source some legallity on it & see where it goes.

In the mood for a fight with these jumped up pen pushing keyboard pressing idiots 

OK, don't tell him he's a tosser, then. Tell him you're signing nowt till you've taken advice.

I'm sure he already knows , he's probably been handed that sh*t sandwich by higher management to pass on
plenty of roofing and fencing jobs going with the current weather
buy a rusty transit dropside pickup and be a builder 

[STEMO]

I might just stand firm on this one & flatly refuse to acceptit   . . .argue it out  . . .try and

source some legallity on it & see where it goes.

In the mood for a fight with these jumped up pen pushing keyboard pressing idiots 

OK, don't tell him he's a tosser, then. Tell him you're signing nowt till you've taken advice.

I'm sure he already knows , he's probably been handed that sh*t sandwich by higher management to pass on
plenty of roofing and fencing jobs going with the current weather
buy a rusty transit dropside pickup and be a builder 

Yeah. Tunnie could be your first customer.

[Doctor Gollum]

Next thing you know, they'll be running credit checks to make sure you can pay it

Wilson James have a similar policy... Either you agree or you are unemployed. Their policy has the caveat that you might be held liable for the excess costs but if you have more than two fault prangs then you're out on your arse...

[dave the builder]

I might just stand firm on this one & flatly refuse to acceptit   . . .argue it out  . . .try and

source some legallity on it & see where it goes.

In the mood for a fight with these jumped up pen pushing keyboard pressing idiots 

OK, don't tell him he's a tosser, then. Tell him you're signing nowt till you've taken advice.

I'm sure he already knows , he's probably been handed that sh*t sandwich by higher management to pass on
plenty of roofing and fencing jobs going with the current weather
buy a rusty transit dropside pickup and be a builder 

Yeah. Tunnie could be your first customer.

Yes , spot on uncle STEMO 
do Tunnies half hour roofing job, charge him a grand (for cash )
that then covers your first crash at your day job 
simples 

[STEMO]

I might just stand firm on this one & flatly refuse to acceptit   . . .argue it out  . . .try and

source some legallity on it & see where it goes.

In the mood for a fight with these jumped up pen pushing keyboard pressing idiots 

OK, don't tell him he's a tosser, then. Tell him you're signing nowt till you've taken advice.

I'm sure he already knows , he's probably been handed that sh*t sandwich by higher management to pass on
plenty of roofing and fencing jobs going with the current weather
buy a rusty transit dropside pickup and be a builder 

Yeah. Tunnie could be your first customer.

Yes , spot on uncle STEMO 
do Tunnies half hour roofing job, charge him a grand (for cash )
that then covers your first crash at your day job 
simples 

A grand? What about the scaffolding?

[dave the builder]

I might just stand firm on this one & flatly refuse to acceptit   . . .argue it out  . . .try and

source some legallity on it & see where it goes.

In the mood for a fight with these jumped up pen pushing keyboard pressing idiots 

OK, don't tell him he's a tosser, then. Tell him you're signing nowt till you've taken advice.

I'm sure he already knows , he's probably been handed that sh*t sandwich by higher management to pass on
plenty of roofing and fencing jobs going with the current weather
buy a rusty transit dropside pickup and be a builder 

Yeah. Tunnie could be your first customer.

Yes , spot on uncle STEMO 
do Tunnies half hour roofing job, charge him a grand (for cash )
that then covers your first crash at your day job 
simples 

A grand? What about the scaffolding?

as an OOF member,Tunnie could avoid the cost of a 5 day risk assessment,planning permission,architect fees ,roof tile finder fee etc  and probably best not to charge for scaffolding ,if not being used on his job ,pop crate hire ?

[STEMO]

When I used to do a bit of roofing, I would make sure I had a few jobs going together, then take the slates off one roof, put them on another, get paid, then move them to the next job and get paid again.
As long as the work kept coming in, you could do this for ever. Cheers 🍾 

[dave the builder]

When I used to do a bit of roofing, I would make sure I had a few jobs going together, then take the slates off one roof, put them on another, get paid, then move them to the next job and get paid again.
As long as the work kept coming in, you could do this for ever. Cheers 🍾 

shhhh !    you'll be thrown out the magic circle federation of master builders & NHBC 
admin , please remove Uncle STEMO's trade secret outburst 

[78bex]

Try not to instantly rock the boat, more information is the key to this one 

just because you drive down the road away from your place of work, this doesn`t remove your employers obligation to you as an employee.

If you are serious about this, there is another way to proceed

Tell them you`d rather listen to what the employment service have to say first on the subject. They then can`t intervene & use your refusal to sign as an excuse to fire you.

I`ve used this tactic myself in the past & if you don`t instantly get a resolution, keep copies of any letters & dates & times of telephone conversation
Your employer has to respect your efforts to resolve the dispute you have with them.
It might mean your driving duties are temporarily suspended for a time, but dont be intimidated.
         
            https://www.gov.uk/pay-and-work-rights

[Alnico Blue]

Try not to instantly rock the boat, more information is the key to this one 

just because you drive down the road away from your place of work, this doesn`t remove your employers obligation to you as an employee.

If you are serious about this, there is another way to proceed

Tell them you`d rather listen to what the employment service have to say first on the subject. They then can`t intervene & use your refusal to sign as an excuse to fire you.

I`ve used this tactic myself in the past & if you don`t instantly get a resolution, keep copies of any letters & dates & times of telephone conversation
Your employer has to respect your efforts to resolve the dispute you have with them.
It might mean your driving duties are temporarily suspended for a time, but dont be intimidated.
         
            https://www.gov.uk/pay-and-work-rights

Thanks for that info  . . .will look into it.   Doubt they will be suspending "driving duties" as cannot do my job without driving to each job & using the equipment carried on the van.

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

When I used to do a bit of roofing, I would make sure I had a few jobs going together, then take the slates off one roof, put them on another, get paid, then move them to the next job and get paid again.
As long as the work kept coming in, you could do this for ever. Cheers 🍾 

You can take the boy out of Liverpool...….
What did you do with the lead ? Replace it with grey cardboard ? 

Al - the way I see it is they are trying to enforce a change in your contract of employment and that cant be done without the employees consent. This is why they will probably want you to sign something which is in effect giving your consent to the change.
Im far from an expert though, so seek advice from someone who is, before signing anything or stomping off the job.

[Kevin Wood]

Yep, probably best to politely tell them that you will be seeking independent advice before signing anything.

As said, they are trying to enforce a significant change in your conditions of employment and you will have rights.

[Doctor Gollum]

I'm no legal expert, Al, but I'd say NO! You really need to take proper advice..but...it's the old story of 'If you refuse to do it, we'll find someone who will'. Bastards.

Nothing in my present contract mentions anything about any insurance claim excess.

Guessing we are going to get a "sign here" please notification to accept this . 

Heres an example though . . .one of the younger guys (29 ) came back to his van to find the drivers door damaged & mirror smashed off .   Cost to repair according to the logistics manager  . . .£3000 . . FFS !

The total cost isn't just the parts and labour... It will also include lost time, temporary replacement vehicle and possibly also either a loss of work or delay penalties.

Transit mirror bases are bolted from the inside with shear bolts, so removal involves partially stripping the dash... £££

[2boxerdogs]

Sounds to me that they are trying their luck, personally I would flatly refuse to agree to any such nonsense.

[TheBoy]

As said, they are trying to enforce a significant change in your conditions of employment and you will have rights.

Things have probably changed now, but I remember back in the mid 90s seeking advice on whether my emploter could unilaterally change a fundamental part of my contract, and it turns out they could fairly easily, if slightly underhand.

So defo worth seeking professional advice.

[Rods2]

Although this is from Northern Ireland but part of the UK it will be similar. This NI document is much better than the UK one that I have also provided a link for as it has UK contacts for free advice.

https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/articles/changes-employment-conditions

https://www.gov.uk/your-employment-contract-how-it-can-be-changed/dealing-with-problems

It is important that you make your objections in writing before it is imposed otherwise it can be construed that you have accepted the new terms.

[Alnico Blue]

Thanks for your input guys  . . am  looking into this now 

[jonathanh]

If they wish to change your contract of employment then depending on the number of drivers affected they should consult with you/ elected reps etc

In this case I cannot see how they can make a deduction from pay and still comply with national minimum wage legislation?   I think that needs to be explored

[Doctor Gollum]

Don't see how MW is relevant MW for 25+ is currently £7.83 (£8.21 from April) and only applies to hours actually worked.

This excess is punitive in the event of employee fault, and is probably already covered in existing contracts in that employees have a responsibility to look after company property or pay a contribution towards repair/replacement or face disciplinary action if deliberately or otherwise negligent.

It isn't unreasonable, even if the apparent change seems draconian 

[jonathanh]

Minimum wage applies after deductions so it is very relevant

[Doctor Gollum]

Minimum wage applies after deductions so it is very relevant

This isn't a deduction in that context

[Lazydocker]

I’ll be very surprised if they don’t have a clause in the contract to confirm their right to change terms with 90 days notice 

As for legality... It’s probably legal, even though unethical, but perhaps it is being put in place for repeat offenders

[Alnico Blue]

I’ll be very surprised if they don’t have a clause in the contract to confirm their right to change terms with 90 days notice 

As for legality... It’s probably legal, even though unethical, but perhaps it is being put in place for repeat offenders

Good point there Paul . . .  the younger guys , and some are under 25 and do drive like TB .  My managers comment to me was , "its probably never gonna be implemented to you". 

One of the youngsters to my knowledge is on his 3rd van inside 2 years 

1 accident  ( which is still being investigated as a "crash for cash" by the other vehicle & a blown up engine 

[TheBoy]

on his 3rd van inside 2 years 

I wrote off the same van 3 times in 2 years.  All 3 my fault  , but FWD Escorts never go where you point 'em, in my defence