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[Gaffers]

Good evening chaps,

Just had to recover the car home.  I was about to join a dual carriageway and engaged 4th when it suddenly popped out of gear which sent the revs to about 4k.  The engine then cut out.  I tried to restart while coasting but no joy.  It behaved like a flat battery with the tell-tale clicking, alarm going off when I turn the key, etc.  I got the car home and the battery was 11.8v, I expected less but I guess that would be low enough to stop it from turning over.

The kicker is that I had no warning light on at all prior to cut out.  I had driven 2 hours back from work to home.  I had stopped for 20 minutes before heading out again.  No sign of a battery about to die, engine started normally yet 10 minutes later it cut out.  I also thought that diesels carried on even when the battery was flat unless the fuel pump stops.  Can batteries go off a cliff-edge like that?

[Doctor Gollum]

Aux belt still present? Manual or auto?

Hello, BTW, been wondering how you were doing

[Gaffers]

yup aux still there and in place.  manual box. 

[Doctor Gollum]

Wonder if the sudden jump in rpm has caused a voltage spike

Drop in voltage at the battery could simply be from repeated attempts to start.

[Gaffers]

Not sure about the repeated starts, the first time I tried while coasting it was flat (or seemed flat).  I would have expected the battery to be well charged after a 2 hour run even if I had stopped and restarted.

I am worried about 2 possibilities:

- seized starter motor
- seized engine

[Doctor Gollum]

Does it turn over with jump leads attached

[Gaffers]

Didn't have any handy.  Just got it home, whipped off the battery and stuck it on charge.

[Doctor Gollum]

Didn't have any handy.  Just got it home, whipped off the battery and stuck it on charge.

Fair dos. Try it once recharged and see if it at least turns over. If it does, then KWs excellent start/charge guide will hopefully rule out/confirm battery and alternator issues.

I think you would know if you'd seized the engine at 4K rpm

[Lazydocker]

I suspect it's been overcharging and killed the battery.

Voltage drop could cause fuel solenoid to shut off and stall

[Gaffers]

Well the starter motor is goosed for sure. Charged up the battery last night. It hadn't finished but it was showing 13.8v.  Tried to start and the same thing happened, click of the solenoid engaging lights on the dash going dim, alarm gives two bips which it does when the battery is first connected.

Stuck it 5th and got the towbar back on. Dragged it a few meters in gear and the wheels turned ok so not seized. I just wont have time to get it done before i go on my holibobs tonight. Arse.

[Doctor Gollum]

At least the engine is free

When it cut out, did you try bumping to restart or on the starter?

[Marks DTM Calib]

Connect a jump lead from the battery neg to an engine mount and try again.

[Gaffers]

At least the engine is free

When it cut out, did you try bumping to restart or on the starter?

Situation didn't allow for it. Too much fast moving traffic.

[STEMO]

Have you tried the Earth as Mark suggest, Matt?
And where've yer been , big lad?

[Gaffers]

Connect a jump lead from the battery neg to an engine mount and try again.

Unfortunately, i don't have any more time to deal with it right now. I know Mark is trying to differentiate with the relay or the motor but i can hear the solenoid engage so i am almost certain its the motor. If i get a spare 5mins before i leave i will trh it.

[Marks DTM Calib]

Connect a jump lead from the battery neg to an engine mount and try again.

Unfortunately, i don't have any more time to deal with it right now. I know Mark is trying to differentiate with the relay or the motor but i can hear the solenoid engage so i am almost certain its the motor. If i get a spare 5mins before i leave i will trh it.

Clicking is the clue, the solenoid is pulling in but as soon as the starter load appears the volts plummet and it drops out again.

Also, a failed chassis ground would result in engine failure as you stated, a knackered starter would not

[Doctor Gollum]

At least the engine is free

When it cut out, did you try bumping to restart or on the starter?

Situation didn't allow for it. Too much fast moving traffic.

Fair dos,  I normally drop the clutch and use momentum to spin it over.

There's mention of retorquing engine mounts as a cure for low speed stalling... Summat to do with stressing the otherwise well supported loom

[Gaffers]

Connect a jump lead from the battery neg to an engine mount and try again.

Unfortunately, i don't have any more time to deal with it right now. I know Mark is trying to differentiate with the relay or the motor but i can hear the solenoid engage so i am almost certain its the motor. If i get a spare 5mins before i leave i will trh it.

Clicking is the clue, the solenoid is pulling in but as soon as the starter load appears the volts plummet and it drops out again.

Also, a failed chassis ground would result in engine failure as you stated, a knackered starter would not

S$%#!  I was hoping you weren't going to suggest that.  It was in the back of my mind.  Could it cause normally working dash lights and radio to go off (when start is engaged) and come back on again?

[Gaffers]

At least the engine is free

When it cut out, did you try bumping to restart or on the starter?

Situation didn't allow for it. Too much fast moving traffic.

Fair dos,  I normally drop the clutch and use momentum to spin it over.

There's mention of retorquing engine mounts as a cure for low speed stalling... Summat to do with stressing the otherwise well supported loom

I was shifting from 3rd to 4th at a, ahem, suitable speed for joining a dual carriageway.

[Gaffers]

The problem I am faced with is that I am flying on holibobs tomorrow morning at sparrow's fart and staying at Gatwick tonight.  I get back on a Sunday and normally I will be working the next day.  This means taking the monday off to get it fixed.

[Gaffers]

Connect a jump lead from the battery neg to an engine mount and try again.

Just tried that, no joy.

[Marks DTM Calib]

Try also the pos to the starter terminal then (carefully)

[Gaffers]

I may have to take off the intercooler to get suitable (safe) access to do that.  Unlikely I will have the time

[TD]

When you do get it going.....if it pops out of gear again.....that a sure sign its new gearbox time ime

[Kevin Wood]

When you do get it going.....if it pops out of gear again.....that a sure sign its new gearbox time ime

..or an engine mount is allowing it to move around too much.

[Gaffers]

When you do get it going.....if it pops out of gear again.....that a sure sign its new gearbox time ime

..or an engine mount is allowing it to move around too much.

This is where my thinking is headed.

[TD]

When you do get it going.....if it pops out of gear again.....that a sure sign its new gearbox time ime

..or an engine mount is allowing it to move around too much.

I'll bow to your experience Kevin, but ive had a couple of cars that started popping out of top gear (5th) under load, they were ok in 4th.....both times new gearbox needed .....

[Kevin Wood]

When you do get it going.....if it pops out of gear again.....that a sure sign its new gearbox time ime

..or an engine mount is allowing it to move around too much.

I'll bow to your experience Kevin, but ive had a couple of cars that started popping out of top gear (5th) under load, they were ok in 4th.....both times new gearbox needed .....

I'm not saying that you're wrong, but I've also had instances where the gearbox is shifting around and it knocks the selector mechanism, which does perhaps fit the circumstances here.

[Doctor Gollum]

Looking at the forums, the Legacy has form for loose engine mounts... If accessible, it's an easy thing to check

[Gaffers]

Looking at the forums, the Legacy has form for loose engine mounts... If accessible, it's an easy thing to check

Can you send me some links

P.S. I don't suppose you are around the N Terminal tonight or tomorrow morning?

[Doctor Gollum]

Sadly not... Just changed jobs this week, so 9-4 Still there, just not this weekend... 

There is a nice, shiny new pub NT landside with a gin theme

Links to follow

[Gaffers]

Sadly not... Just changed jobs this week, so 9-4 Still there, just not this weekend... 

There is a nice, shiny new pub NT landside with a gin theme

Links to follow

Gin.  Good shout

[STEMO]

Pair of poofs.........

[Doctor Gollum]

Mostly petrol, but that's a numbers game...

Some light reading... I am struggling to find the references that I saw last night re worn/loose engine mounts stressing the engine loom causing sensor problems... I had a rummage after your initial post...

Anyways, some light reading for you...

https://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2090234

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=217&t=1413688

https://www.scoobynet.com/general-technical-10/833470-legacy-diesel-hot-weather-stalling.html

http://www.subaruoutback.org/forums/showthread.php?t=25264

http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/sticky-starter-cold-dealer-replacing-engine-mountsi-259019.html

http://legacygt.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4670579&postcount=1

http://www.uklegacy.com/forums/index.php/topic/118640-how-is-your-boxer-diesel-reliability/

[Doctor Gollum]

Found it... finally...

http://www.subaruforester.org/vbulletin/f160/diesel-engine-stall-problem-99253/ replies 9-11 in particular...

Unless the crank is fractured, which sadly seems common. Slack in dmf/clutch slip would allow the wheels to turn in a high gear and the car move a couple of feet before all the slop reached the engine.

One of the last three links on previous post deals with cleaning/greasing the starter... try that first and if no joy, try and turn the engine over from the crank pulley in neutral.

[tidla]

Skimmed thru this.

Have you charged and tested the battery off the vehicle with a drop charger or modern equivalent?

Had a fully loaded works van, up to temp and a warm day,cut out in slow moving traffic.

had to get those behind to push it to the nearest gap.

Twin batteries and one Battery just died dragging the other with it.

[Doctor Gollum]

Skimmed thru this.

Have you charged and tested the battery off the vehicle with a drop charger or modern equivalent?

Had a fully loaded works van, up to temp and a warm day,cut out in slow moving traffic.

had to get those behind to push it to the nearest gap.

Twin batteries and one Battery just died dragging the other with it.

Transhits are good for this...

[Doctor Gollum]

Have you got to the bottom of this yet

[Gaffers]

I don't get back until sunday evening. I have ordered some new engine mounts and bits to repair earth leads and the like. All set for when i get back. The tricky part will be getting it on the ramps to work underneath. Going to try hot wiring the sgarter motor properly, failing that i have a rigid towbar.

[Nick W]

Skimmed thru this.

Have you charged and tested the battery off the vehicle with a drop charger or modern equivalent?

Had a fully loaded works van, up to temp and a warm day,cut out in slow moving traffic.

had to get those behind to push it to the nearest gap.

Twin batteries and one Battery just died dragging the other with it.

Transhits are good for this...

As are Pajeros.

[Doctor Gollum]

I don't get back until sunday evening. I have ordered some new engine mounts and bits to repair earth leads and the like. All set for when i get back. The tricky part will be getting it on the ramps to work underneath. Going to try hot wiring the sgarter motor properly, failing that i have a rigid towbar.

Ah ok, thought you were maybe back this week... Am working sunday night, so our paths may cross

[Gaffers]

Got back last night and I am not feeling 100% so I didn't get to it till this morning.  I tried starting again and the issue remains.  Fully charged battery but when I try to start it will not turn over.  I hear the solenoid kick in but the motor does not turn.  It also feels like there is a short because the whole car electrics die and you get the reset noise when you reconnect the battery.

So I have whipped off the intercooler and taken out the starter motor.  All the pos and earth wiring looks ok.  I dont know if there are any earths under the car but the one which goes direct to the starter motor seems good.  I put the motor on a bench and tested it.  Solenoid kicks in nicely and the motor turns.

So I am a little stuck.  The engine turns over manually in gear (tried pulling several feet with the towbar and no lockup).  The starter is fine.  Clutch engagement/disengagement is fine (visual check anyway).  My only theory is that the engine mounts are worn (fits with something else) and when I was joining the DC I must have changed gears too briskly and caused the block to move on its mounts.  This in turn may have knocked the motor a few mm which would prevent the teeth from engaging on the flywheel and a short in the motor.  Or that the motor just needed manually turning a bit because it was in a dead spot. 

Thoughts?

[Viral_Jim]

Starting with a daft question. Have you checked that 12v is actually getting to the motor when you turn the key? If so I'd pull the motor and see if it will spin when not attached to the engine. 

[Gaffers]

Starting with a daft question. Have you checked that 12v is actually getting to the motor when you turn the key? If so I'd pull the motor and see if it will spin when not attached to the engine.

That's what i did.  The motor spins when you manually apply 12v.  (which i am secretly very happy about now i know how much a new starter motor costs)

Dud relay perhaps?

[Viral_Jim]

Would be my next choice (Because they're usually cheap ). Could also be causing a short depending on how fubar it is.

[henryd]

Got back last night and I am not feeling 100% so I didn't get to it till this morning.  I tried starting again and the issue remains.  Fully charged battery but when I try to start it will not turn over.  I hear the solenoid kick in but the motor does not turn.  It also feels like there is a short because the whole car electrics die and you get the reset noise when you reconnect the battery.

So I have whipped off the intercooler and taken out the starter motor.  All the pos and earth wiring looks ok.  I dont know if there are any earths under the car but the one which goes direct to the starter motor seems good.  I put the motor on a bench and tested it.  Solenoid kicks in nicely and the motor turns.

So I am a little stuck.  The engine turns over manually in gear (tried pulling several feet with the towbar and no lockup).  The starter is fine.  Clutch engagement/disengagement is fine (visual check anyway).  My only theory is that the engine mounts are worn (fits with something else) and when I was joining the DC I must have changed gears too briskly and caused the block to move on its mounts.  This in turn may have knocked the motor a few mm which would prevent the teeth from engaging on the flywheel and a short in the motor.  Or that the motor just needed manually turning a bit because it was in a dead spot. 

Thoughts?

If the mounts were gone it wouldn't affect the relationship between engine/gearbox/starter motor meshing up,if the starter works on the bench its more likely to be a poor ground connection at either battery,body or engine /gearbox

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

Might be worth installing a new earth from the battery and try earthing it to different places - engine block, chassis etc. to see if it makes a difference. If it did, it would confirm you have a dodgy earth connection somewhere.

[sjc]

What does your battery voltage drop to when you're cranking the starter?

I've had several batteries in the early stages of failure where they'd show a good voltage but wouldn't deliver decent amps to turn the engine and the voltage would drop so low that everything electrical in the car would reset - radio, windows, sunroof, the lot.

Have you tried a known good battery?

[Gaffers]

Beat me to it sjc. Just rebuilt everything and still no joy. Must be the battery.

break...

[Gaffers]

Ok, looks like it a more serious problem.  I think it may have seized.  I tried the new battery same problem.  Checked all the voltages again, no problems.  Took off the aux belt to try and turn the crank and it wont budge.  Not even a bit.

Yours, frustrated of Camberley.

[Doctor Gollum]

Chain or belt driven?

Possibly jumped due to worn tensioner(s) when you fluffed the gear change... unless jumping out of gear was a result of seizing More digging required. What you find might not be pretty though

[aaronjb]

What year is the Legacy?

ISTR that for some years a snapped crank is not all that uncommon.

[Gaffers]

2009 Legacy Boxer Diesel EE20.  I think it's a chain but I might be wrong.

[Doctor Gollum]

What year is the Legacy?

ISTR that a snapped crank is not all that uncommon.

Fixed. And not necessarily due to age/mileage

[Gaffers]

Well, it's write-off.  New engine is twice even the most generous of valuations so I shall go down the route with the garage that sold it to me 15 months ago and see what they say

[Doctor Gollum]

Well, it's write-off.  New engine is twice even the most generous of valuations so I shall go down the route with the garage that sold it to me 15 months ago and see what they say

Good luck, but a pity as they're not bad cars

[henryd]

Well, it's write-off.  New engine is twice even the most generous of valuations so I shall go down the route with the garage that sold it to me 15 months ago and see what they say

Think you might struggle 15 months on but good luck

[TD]

Well, it's write-off.  New engine is twice even the most generous of valuations so I shall go down the route with the garage that sold it to me 15 months ago and see what they say

Is that a brand spankers new engine?

You might want to contact a diesel specialist...

The Fiat Scudo that I had, I took (or it got recovered to be more accurate) when the engine in that went bang....to a specialist...

They looked at what was wrong with the engine and gave me 3 choices....

Brand spankers new engine....fitted for £4k
Engine repaired .... £3k
Second hand reconditioned replacement with 3 month warranty fitted... £1400

Guess which option I went for ...  And got shot pdq after the repair 

[Gaffers]

Options i have:

1 nearly new 8k
2 older but good condition with warranty 4k
3 one from a breaker. No warranty, engine already has a knock (not sure if just a lifter) 400 ish quid.

Thats ebay, internet pages and scoobie forums checked.  Although my old man has found a working block (no starter, alternator, etc) in the US for $2300 + delivery

[Doctor Gollum]

If you're going second hand, budget for a new crank...

[Gaffers]

If you're going second hand, budget for a new crank...

Which means new block, etc, etc....

[Doctor Gollum]

If you're going second hand, budget for a new crank...

Which means new block, etc, etc....

S/H means failure sooner... newer cars are only less prone now... in time they too will show an increase in failure rate

[Gaffers]

If you're going second hand, budget for a new crank...

Which means new block, etc, etc....

S/H means failure sooner... newer cars are only less prone now... in time they too will show an increase in failure rate

2010 engines and later resolved the issue and an apparent internal memo confirmed an issue with boring or the amount of sealant used on the caps.  But they are not common and highly sought after as you can see.

[Doctor Gollum]

Fair dos... if it lasts a year, then that's $200 a month which is still less than a replacement car

[Marks DTM Calib]

Options i have:

1 nearly new 8k
2 older but good condition with warranty 4k
3 one from a breaker. No warranty, engine already has a knock (not sure if just a lifter) 400 ish quid.

Thats ebay, internet pages and scoobie forums checked.  Although my old man has found a working block (no starter, alternator, etc) in the US for $2300 + delivery

Surely you can rebuild yourself for a fraction of that, its only a chufin Robin engine

[Marks DTM Calib]

Hmmm....three bearing crank on a diesel and its known to wipe out a main.....what a stunning piece of design!

[Gaffers]

Hmmm....three bearing crank on a diesel and its known to wipe out a main.....what a stunning piece of design!

Yes, I have been making use of my time in hospital to read up on other people's experiences and I wish I had found all this information prior to purchasing the car.  It's a real shame because it is a fantastic car, probably one of the best I have driven and I include the XF in that assessment.  If I can find a way of replacing the engine cost-effectively I will, but a rebuild will likely mean a new block anyway.