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[deviator]

Well colour me surprised, they maybe aren't as green as originally thought.
https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-8977211/Are-plug-cars-really-green-claim-Report-suggests-not.html

[Marks DTM Calib]

Nobody ever really claims they are truly green, it just moves the pollution from one place to another.

[Nick W]

Nobody ever really who knows anything about them claims they are truly green, it just moves the pollution from one place to another.

FTFY


After all, 30 years ago diesels were touted as the cure for CO2 emissions with no side effects.

[Doctor Gollum]

Nobody ever really claims they are truly green, it just moves the pollution from one place to another.

Fully electric also fall into this category.

[STEMO]

There's always a by-product, somewhere, you don't get energy for free.

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

I've said it before. Teleportation is the answer.

Some boffin will figure it out.

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

No -one with more than one brain cell or an ounce of honesty ever really claims they are truly green, it just moves the pollution from one place to another.

Fixed that for you. 

[BazaJT]

Hybrids to me are the worst of both worlds.When you're on the ICE you're lugging about the weight of the electrical gubbins/batteries and when you're going electric you're lugging the ICE plus gearbox,fuel etc. and you also lose interior space to the electrics/batteries.

[Doctor Gollum]

You say that... A Prius battery pack could easily fit in most cars across the rear of the back seat between the wheel arches. 19x96x39 cm for the current one... And 45 kgs which is basically the weight of all the spares/tools you would normally carry in an Omega

[Rangie]

You say that... A Prius battery pack could easily fit in most cars across the rear of the back seat between the wheel arches. 19x96x39 cm for the current one... And 45 kgs which is basically the weight of all the spares/tools you would normally carry in an Omega

. 

Stopped carrying tools in 1987 , apart from items to change a wheel that's all I would do nowadays & that would depend on where the vehicle was, moved to Norfolk in 1987 and bought myself a new Nissan Patrol LWB & SWMBO a new Micra and joined Green Flag for free for 3 years been with them ever since.
Only ever used them twice in 33 years both for electrical problems.

[ronnyd]

Not that any of this will really affect me but i think all this policy is really for is to get as many drivers off the road as possible. No way in my life have i been able to buy a new car and the only E/V i could afford would be a Quingo.

[Doctor Gollum]

I was taking the piss

45kgs is barely 1% of the weight of a car and equates to a fat dog or modest child and makes next to no difference in the performance of your average family car...

[Rangie]

Not that any of this will really affect me but i think all this policy is really for is to get as many drivers off the road as possible. No way in my life have i been able to buy a new car and the only E/V i could afford would be a Quingo.

. 


I wouldn't even consider buying an electric vehicle just doesn't appeal to me in the slightest , when I have to give up my "proper" car that will be it for me , intend keeping the Range Rover for as long as possible & SWMBO has zero interest in cars so will keep the Subaru as well it has only covered 40,000 miles from new .

[Viral_Jim]

My biggest issue with hybrids is the level of complexity they add. One of the biggest attractions of ev's is the mechanical simplicity and reduced maintenance burden. But they aren't maintenance free, so in a hybrid you're basically maintaining two different drivetrains.

How green EVs are is all down to how green the grid is that powers them. But I guess moving any pollution out of city centres is a good thing.

I'm sure I'll have EVs in the future,  but I can't see me having a hybrid, plug in or otherwise.

[Doctor Gollum]

They're only proposing the outlawing of NEW ice cars by 2030.

Whilst that isn't that far away, they'll be around for a little while yet. That said, better get a wriggle on if you want to own an interesting car while you still can.

[STEMO]

They're only proposing the outlawing of NEW ice cars by 2030.

Whilst that isn't that far away, they'll be around for a little while yet. That said, better get a wriggle on if you want to own an interesting car while you still can.

I read an article that reckoned diesels would be gone (as new models) by 2022. Why would they continue to make them?

[dave the builder]

manufacturers may stop R&D on new tractor juice powered engines soon
but i expect they will continue to sell current models way into this decade ,because people WILL buy them

[Doctor Gollum]

Diesel powered cars are on the wall, Volvo for one are stopping diesel car production in the near future, petrol powered not yet...

I can't quite wrap my head around the difference between a plug in hybrid and a self charging one... As by definition any hybrid has the capacity to self charge

Ethanol was supposed to be the next great thing until they realised how much rainforest is cleared to grow the cane to produce it. Remember being taught about that at Prep school...

Biodiesel was supposed to be the immediate solution to regular diesel, but not without its issues either.

https://www.shell.com/energy-and-innovation/natural-gas/gas-to-liquids.html could be the future of compression combustion fuels... Not heard much of it recently though

Lots of innovative fads in the 'green' quest.

[Viral_Jim]

I read an article that reckoned diesels would be gone (as new models) by 2022. Why would they continue to make them?

Because car manufacturers have Billions in assets on their balance sheets in relation to R&D, tooling etc that's related to diesels.

If they admit they're no longer viable, or stop selling them, they have to write all that money off. So they'll keep hawking them for the foreseeable future.

 It's one of the reasons that ev prices have stayed so high despite a significant fall in the price of batteries. It's a way for manufacturers to artificially deflate demand, "EVs are too expensive to buy" is a nice self fulfilling prophecy.

[STEMO]

From 'This is money'

The fast-tracked ban on new cars with internal combustion engines will - without doubt - have much larger implications for petrol vehicles than it will for diesels.

That's because oil burners will be long gone from widespread sale in showrooms before 2030.

Manufacturers have been responding to a monumental decline in demand for diesels in recent years by pulling them from their line-ups already.

Before VW's Dieselgate emissions cheating scandal in 2015, diesels accounted for 50 per cent of all new cars registered in the UK. In 2020, they contribute to just 16 per cent of sales and continue to slide.

Whereas once they were seen as the answer to reducing carbon emissions, they are now seen as the problem for air pollution.

Diesel cars make up just 16.6% of new car registrations so far in 2020. BEVs, PHEVs and HEVs collectively almost match oil burners, with 16% of the UK's market share   +16
Diesel cars make up just 16.6% of new car registrations so far in 2020. BEVs, PHEVs and HEVs collectively almost match oil burners, with 16% of the UK's market share

Reacting to this cliff-edge decline in demand, the likes of Ford, Honda and Renault in recent months have committed to removing some - or all – diesel-engine cars from their ranges, either with immediate effect or from the beginning of 2021.

They join the likes of Volvo, Porsche, Fiat, Alfa Romeo, Nissan, Lexus and Toyota - to name just a few - who have already scheduled an end of development for diesel engines.

It means the chances of walking into a showroom in 2029 and having the choice of buying a diesel-engined car is slim to none. In fact, diesel will almost be at death's door by the end of 2021. 

[Nick W]

manufacturers may stop R&D on new tractor juice powered engines soon
but i expect they will continue to sell current models way into this decade ,because people WILL buy them

Of course they will, because diesels are, and will continue to be, very useful tools. The infrastructure is firmly in place, buyers, users and repairers understand them and realistic alternatives are sparse.


Their popularity will drop off as the disadvantages of the alternatives are worked upon, and the artificial deadline approaches. Those two things are directly connected.


Whether effective solutions are possible without everyone forcibly changing their habits - which is the only long-term solution -  is a gamble.

[dave the builder]

probably time to fill a swimming pool with diesel while it's cheap to run the back up generator when we do go all electric 

[Doctor Gollum]

probably time to fill a swimming pool with diesel while it's cheap to run the back up generator when we do go all electric 

I'm sure the fish will appreciate that

[Nick W]

probably time to fill a swimming pool with diesel while it's cheap to run the back up generator when we do go all electric 

Clockwork. Get the kids to wind it

[johnnydog]

In 2019 Audi introduced their new model of the performance S4 models with a 3.0 V6 turbo diesel engine producing 342bhp, with mild hybrid technology. It is currently only available as a diesel in European markets, whilst elsewhere such as the US, it is available with a 3.0 V6 petrol engine.
https://www.uk.audi.com/uk/web/en/models/a4/s4-avant/engines.html
Who says diesels are dead and buried? Audi don't seem to think so......

[Sir Tigger KC]

Daimler-Benz announced the other day that they will not be designing any new internal combustion engines going forward....

[dave the builder]

probably time to fill a swimming pool with diesel while it's cheap to run the back up generator when we do go all electric 

Clockwork. Get the kids to wind it

My daughter is quite tired after a 12 hour shift at a care home
the grandkids have plenty of energy though 

probably time to fill a swimming pool with diesel while it's cheap to run the back up generator when we do go all electric 

I'm sure the fish will appreciate that

the fish are too picky to drink tap  water ,let alone tractor juice 

[B52]

I suppose the main influences are environmental pressure, oil production and what the consumer wants.

The first was already happening in terms of progressively stricter emissions. As an aside, I recently ended up behind a 1990s Merc in traffic and the exhaust fumes were really strong. Strange to think most cars would have been like that at the time.

At some point, there will be a shift away from oil just as there was from coal. I think it'll be progressive for cars as liquid fuel is so convenient.

The last part is more tricky - if the industry stops producing ICE cars, we can't buy them any more (like it or not). But that's not to say we'll definitely buy what they produce instead. A lot will hold onto what they have while this develops, particularly while the economy is uncertain. And I could see a bigger shift towards PCP or similar, with no commitment to own in the long term.

Related, the GM EV1 could only be leased -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_EV1

[Doctor Gollum]

It's all well and good pricing people out of cars, but if you have no viable alternative, how do you get around/to work? Working from home isn't practical for every job either... There's about enough room to park an A320 on the communal space, but it would have to be dropped in

Public transport wouldn't be any use as it can barely cope as it is and is unpredictable at the best of times.

So either wages go up. Alot to cover the extra costs of doing anything or we all end up sitting in our bank owned properties waiting for food parcels

[Rangie]

It just goes to show that the whole business has not been thought about sensibly , although work for many may never be the same again transport for the masses must be available at reasonable cost.

[Marks DTM Calib]

PHEVs (Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicles) target a specific user, those that do short journeys and also need a car to go on holiday with, hence why they do 30 mile range on the juice. They have been popular as they attracted tax incentives 

MHEVs (Mild Hybrid Electric vehicles) charge through energy recovery, generally have small batteries and only on small cars do they really do anything, larger cars tend to use the recovered energy for added features like electric superchargers and a bit of assist via a universal machine (integrated starter + alternator). Most higher end engines have been a very Mild MHEV for years.

[B52]

DG/Rangie: it's seldom thought out sensibly - there's a mixture of a commercial car industry (including new/used sales, servicing, parts, fuel, and so on) which largely works by supply and demand AND government regulation of the design and use of the product (which has nothing to do with supply and demand).

We still have massive choices - new, used, lease, hire, switch makes, keep existing car, trade in, swap on ebay. These all have different costs and benefits.

Conflicts appear if, say, I'm still running the MV6 and my local area becomes a ULEZ or they alter the VED bands again. Then I'd need to choose between the additional cost against changing cars. I might choose the additional cost.

But I think it's important to keep that choice and keep governments out of it as far as possible, even if the intentions are good. Or it could end up with being told when and which Trabant you're allowed to have.

None of these things have easy answers:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_gU50mfehI

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Pinto#Cost%E2%80%93benefit_analysis,_the_Pinto_Memo

[TheBoy]

Before VW's Dieselgate emissions cheating scandal in 2015, diesels accounted for 50 per cent of all new cars registered in the UK. In 2020, they contribute to just 16 per cent of sales and continue to slide.

I think it was already on the slide then, as Euro5 came in around a decade ago, and necessitated DPFs.  Suddenly people found out rather quickly that their usage wasn't suited to diesels...   ...and the small petrol turbos had become a better contender for small family cars.

Only the thickest of the thick - think misinformed tree huggers - took any notice of VW's little workaround to a rather pointless test.

[deviator]

And I could see a bigger shift towards PCP or similar, with no commitment to own in the long term.

This is what they want, you won't own a car, you'll hire one for your journey and then it'll go off to help someone else.

Related, the GM EV1 could only be leased -

Talking of GM, 'let's save the environment with an electric Hummer', no really. I kind of feel this completely misses the point.
https://www.carwow.co.uk/news/4860/hummer-ev-electric-suv-price-specs-release-date

[B52]

 

Even in its 11mpg ICE form, the Hummer makes little sense -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uj2e_kqiN-Y

[Nick W]

The last part is more tricky - if the industry stops producing ICE cars, we can't buy them any more (like it or not). But that's not to say we'll definitely buy what they produce instead. A lot will hold onto what they have while this develops, particularly while the economy is uncertain. And I could see a bigger shift towards PCP or similar, with no commitment to own in the long term.

The only reason to own a car is for the convenience of using it whenever you want. Then there's a lot marketing to make you think it's an investment(which is utter 'dangle berries' no matter how you look at it)/heirloom/indicator of your success/whatever and ensure you change it frequently.


That convenience has a serious downside that is now becoming obvious to everybody: the way we use cars is both stupid and unsustainable. 'I need a car to commute' is back to front; we only commute by car because it looks affordable. Railways started  the same thing 150 years ago, which is why housing in most big cities looks the same - a combination of extremely expensive and fancy with grotty but still costly in the centre, and rings of increasingly newer suburbs around it.


Unfortunately, no politician is going to state that so baldly because it's career suicide. It will take a sudden disaster of some sort to forcibly change our collective minds. I hope it doesn't happen for at least another twenty years

[B52]

If you like a good read, Vance Packard did a good assessment of such things as far back as the 1960s (The Waste Makers and The Hidden Persuaders). I'm slightly suspicious the same tricks are still around with electric vehicles.

A sudden disaster that might make us change the way we look at commuting and travel? Like... Covid?

[Nick W]

If you like a good read, Vance Packard did a good assessment of such things as far back as the 1960s (The Waste Makers and The Hidden Persuaders). I'm slightly suspicious the same tricks are still around with electric vehicles.

A sudden disaster that might make us change the way we look at commuting and travel? Like... Covid?

one that makes using personal transport unaffordable. Covid is only going to stop some of the pointless commuting for a while.


A committed terrorist group could easily wreck the UK's transport by blowing various oil refineries around the country. Which isn't difficult to do as they're basically controlled bombs when they're working properly.

[B52]

True - I've also seen some reports that Covid is influencing the housing market. I live in an area of gentrified 3 and 4 storey tenements which is presently overcrowded by ICE vehicles but I've seen more electric cables across pavements for recharging. At some point, the penny will drop that they could move to a cheaper area and have a driveway for that cable.

Shifting to electric/PHEV means all you need is a power outlet which can be anywhere, if you get my drift. Less need for refineries which could be targets.

BTW I 100% agree that a lot of current commuting is pointless.

[Nick W]

Shifting to electric/PHEV means all you need is a power outlet which can be anywhere, if you get my drift. Less need for refineries which could be targets.

it doesn't take much more effort to wreck a power station turbine than blowing up an oil refinery.


Do that to 3 or 4 simultaneously and you'll compromise the entire system.


This sort of thing is far scarier than the terrorist shootings and bombings of people

[STEMO]

Shifting to electric/PHEV means all you need is a power outlet which can be anywhere, if you get my drift. Less need for refineries which could be targets.

it doesn't take much more effort to wreck a power station turbine than blowing up an oil refinery.


Do that to 3 or 4 simultaneously and you'll compromise the entire system.


This sort of thing is far scarier than the terrorist shootings and bombings of people

Blowing up? How very yesterday, those kind of things can be done remotely these days.

[tigers_gonads]

Shifting to electric/PHEV means all you need is a power outlet which can be anywhere, if you get my drift. Less need for refineries which could be targets.

it doesn't take much more effort to wreck a power station turbine than blowing up an oil refinery.


Do that to 3 or 4 simultaneously and you'll compromise the entire system.


This sort of thing is far scarier than the terrorist shootings and bombings of people

Blowing up? How very yesterday, those kind of things can be done remotely these days.

Yup
Some spotty faced computer nerd with a talent for hacking OR some state sponsored organisation can easily screw up your day with a few strokes of the keyboard 
 

[Nick W]

it doesn't take much more effort to wreck a power station turbine than blowing up an oil refinery.


Do that to 3 or 4 simultaneously and you'll compromise the entire system.

Blowing up? How very yesterday, those kind of things can be done remotely these days.

Yup
Some spotty faced computer nerd with a talent for hacking OR some state sponsored organisation can easily screw up your day with a few strokes of the keyboard 
 

That still seems a bit more complex than a couple of oppsers with some wirecutters and a sledgehammer.

[ronnyd]

Shifting to electric/PHEV means all you need is a power outlet which can be anywhere, if you get my drift. Less need for refineries which could be targets.

it doesn't take much more effort to wreck a power station turbine than blowing up an oil refinery.


Do that to 3 or 4 simultaneously and you'll compromise the entire system.


This sort of thing is far scarier than the terrorist shootings and bombings of people

Blowing up? How very yesterday, those kind of things can be done remotely these days.

Yup
Some spotty faced computer nerd with a talent for hacking OR some state sponsored organisation can easily screw up your day with a few strokes of the keyboard 
 

Was reading today of attempts to disrupt the Covid vaccine supply chain. It's reckoned that the amount going into it appears that it is probably state sponsored. Life is cheap to some.