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Author Topic: Plug-In Hybrids  (Read 4945 times)

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Marks DTM Calib

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Re: Plug-In Hybrids
« Reply #30 on: 25 November 2020, 13:04:14 »

PHEVs (Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicles) target a specific user, those that do short journeys and also need a car to go on holiday with, hence why they do 30 mile range on the juice. They have been popular as they attracted tax incentives  :y

MHEVs (Mild Hybrid Electric vehicles) charge through energy recovery, generally have small batteries and only on small cars do they really do anything, larger cars tend to use the recovered energy for added features like electric superchargers and a bit of assist via a universal machine (integrated starter + alternator). Most higher end engines have been a very Mild MHEV for years.

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B52

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Re: Plug-In Hybrids
« Reply #31 on: 25 November 2020, 15:00:52 »

DG/Rangie: it's seldom thought out sensibly - there's a mixture of a commercial car industry (including new/used sales, servicing, parts, fuel, and so on) which largely works by supply and demand AND government regulation of the design and use of the product (which has nothing to do with supply and demand).

We still have massive choices - new, used, lease, hire, switch makes, keep existing car, trade in, swap on ebay. These all have different costs and benefits.

Conflicts appear if, say, I'm still running the MV6 and my local area becomes a ULEZ or they alter the VED bands again. Then I'd need to choose between the additional cost against changing cars. I might choose the additional cost.

But I think it's important to keep that choice and keep governments out of it as far as possible, even if the intentions are good. Or it could end up with being told when and which Trabant you're allowed to have.

None of these things have easy answers:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_gU50mfehI

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Pinto#Cost%E2%80%93benefit_analysis,_the_Pinto_Memo
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TheBoy

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Re: Plug-In Hybrids
« Reply #32 on: 25 November 2020, 16:45:35 »

Before VW's Dieselgate emissions cheating scandal in 2015, diesels accounted for 50 per cent of all new cars registered in the UK. In 2020, they contribute to just 16 per cent of sales and continue to slide.
I think it was already on the slide then, as Euro5 came in around a decade ago, and necessitated DPFs.  Suddenly people found out rather quickly that their usage wasn't suited to diesels...   ...and the small petrol turbos had become a better contender for small family cars.

Only the thickest of the thick - think misinformed tree huggers - took any notice of VW's little workaround to a rather pointless test.
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Re: Plug-In Hybrids
« Reply #33 on: 26 November 2020, 12:04:20 »

And I could see a bigger shift towards PCP or similar, with no commitment to own in the long term.
This is what they want, you won't own a car, you'll hire one for your journey and then it'll go off to help someone else.

Related, the GM EV1 could only be leased -
Talking of GM, 'let's save the environment with an electric Hummer', no really. I kind of feel this completely misses the point.
https://www.carwow.co.uk/news/4860/hummer-ev-electric-suv-price-specs-release-date
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B52

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Re: Plug-In Hybrids
« Reply #34 on: 26 November 2020, 12:22:25 »

 ;D

Even in its 11mpg ICE form, the Hummer makes little sense -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uj2e_kqiN-Y
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Nick W

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Re: Plug-In Hybrids
« Reply #35 on: 26 November 2020, 12:42:29 »


The last part is more tricky - if the industry stops producing ICE cars, we can't buy them any more (like it or not). But that's not to say we'll definitely buy what they produce instead. A lot will hold onto what they have while this develops, particularly while the economy is uncertain. And I could see a bigger shift towards PCP or similar, with no commitment to own in the long term.



The only reason to own a car is for the convenience of using it whenever you want. Then there's a lot marketing to make you think it's an investment(which is utter 'dangle berries' no matter how you look at it)/heirloom/indicator of your success/whatever and ensure you change it frequently.


That convenience has a serious downside that is now becoming obvious to everybody: the way we use cars is both stupid and unsustainable. 'I need a car to commute' is back to front; we only commute by car because it looks affordable. Railways started  the same thing 150 years ago, which is why housing in most big cities looks the same - a combination of extremely expensive and fancy with grotty but still costly in the centre, and rings of increasingly newer suburbs around it.


Unfortunately, no politician is going to state that so baldly because it's career suicide. It will take a sudden disaster of some sort to forcibly change our collective minds. I hope it doesn't happen for at least another twenty years
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B52

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Re: Plug-In Hybrids
« Reply #36 on: 26 November 2020, 15:25:51 »

If you like a good read, Vance Packard did a good assessment of such things as far back as the 1960s (The Waste Makers and The Hidden Persuaders). I'm slightly suspicious the same tricks are still around with electric vehicles.

A sudden disaster that might make us change the way we look at commuting and travel? Like... Covid?
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Nick W

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Re: Plug-In Hybrids
« Reply #37 on: 26 November 2020, 16:17:29 »

If you like a good read, Vance Packard did a good assessment of such things as far back as the 1960s (The Waste Makers and The Hidden Persuaders). I'm slightly suspicious the same tricks are still around with electric vehicles.

A sudden disaster that might make us change the way we look at commuting and travel? Like... Covid?


one that makes using personal transport unaffordable. Covid is only going to stop some of the pointless commuting for a while.


A committed terrorist group could easily wreck the UK's transport by blowing various oil refineries around the country. Which isn't difficult to do as they're basically controlled bombs when they're working properly.
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B52

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Re: Plug-In Hybrids
« Reply #38 on: 26 November 2020, 23:57:45 »

True - I've also seen some reports that Covid is influencing the housing market. I live in an area of gentrified 3 and 4 storey tenements which is presently overcrowded by ICE vehicles but I've seen more electric cables across pavements for recharging. At some point, the penny will drop that they could move to a cheaper area and have a driveway for that cable.

Shifting to electric/PHEV means all you need is a power outlet which can be anywhere, if you get my drift. Less need for refineries which could be targets.

BTW I 100% agree that a lot of current commuting is pointless.
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Nick W

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Re: Plug-In Hybrids
« Reply #39 on: 27 November 2020, 00:17:21 »



Shifting to electric/PHEV means all you need is a power outlet which can be anywhere, if you get my drift. Less need for refineries which could be targets.




it doesn't take much more effort to wreck a power station turbine than blowing up an oil refinery.


Do that to 3 or 4 simultaneously and you'll compromise the entire system.


This sort of thing is far scarier than the terrorist shootings and bombings of people





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STEMO

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Re: Plug-In Hybrids
« Reply #40 on: 27 November 2020, 06:40:58 »



Shifting to electric/PHEV means all you need is a power outlet which can be anywhere, if you get my drift. Less need for refineries which could be targets.




it doesn't take much more effort to wreck a power station turbine than blowing up an oil refinery.


Do that to 3 or 4 simultaneously and you'll compromise the entire system.


This sort of thing is far scarier than the terrorist shootings and bombings of people
Blowing up? How very yesterday, those kind of things can be done remotely these days.
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Diesel till I die

tigers_gonads

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Re: Plug-In Hybrids
« Reply #41 on: 06 December 2020, 13:41:13 »



Shifting to electric/PHEV means all you need is a power outlet which can be anywhere, if you get my drift. Less need for refineries which could be targets.




it doesn't take much more effort to wreck a power station turbine than blowing up an oil refinery.


Do that to 3 or 4 simultaneously and you'll compromise the entire system.


This sort of thing is far scarier than the terrorist shootings and bombings of people
Blowing up? How very yesterday, those kind of things can be done remotely these days.


Yup
Some spotty faced computer nerd with a talent for hacking OR some state sponsored organisation can easily screw up your day with a few strokes of the keyboard  :(
 
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Nick W

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Re: Plug-In Hybrids
« Reply #42 on: 06 December 2020, 13:47:36 »



it doesn't take much more effort to wreck a power station turbine than blowing up an oil refinery.


Do that to 3 or 4 simultaneously and you'll compromise the entire system.


Blowing up? How very yesterday, those kind of things can be done remotely these days.


Yup
Some spotty faced computer nerd with a talent for hacking OR some state sponsored organisation can easily screw up your day with a few strokes of the keyboard  :(
 


That still seems a bit more complex than a couple of oppsers with some wirecutters and a sledgehammer.
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ronnyd

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Re: Plug-In Hybrids
« Reply #43 on: 06 December 2020, 15:29:19 »



Shifting to electric/PHEV means all you need is a power outlet which can be anywhere, if you get my drift. Less need for refineries which could be targets.




it doesn't take much more effort to wreck a power station turbine than blowing up an oil refinery.


Do that to 3 or 4 simultaneously and you'll compromise the entire system.


This sort of thing is far scarier than the terrorist shootings and bombings of people
Blowing up? How very yesterday, those kind of things can be done remotely these days.


Yup
Some spotty faced computer nerd with a talent for hacking OR some state sponsored organisation can easily screw up your day with a few strokes of the keyboard  :(
 
Was reading today of attempts to disrupt the Covid vaccine supply chain. It's reckoned that the amount going into it appears that it is probably state sponsored. Life is cheap to some.  :(




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