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[Lizzie Zoom]

What a load of twaddle.

Either completely rebuild the network ground up to make the best use of new tech or design new stock to fit the infrastructure.

Using the excuse that the trains are too big to justify new track roughly translates to "We've bought the wrong bloody trains"

That is exactly what is happening with the new HS lines.

As for the use of new design and the latest technology to fit the existing infrastructure, that is exactly what has been done with the latest rolling stock.  But the fact is that the 21st century trains that can be built, and are being built, can travel at far higher speeds than the old infrastructure will allow without thousands of billions being spent on it.  The old embankments and alignments, let alone all the rest of the infrasture, can not easily and cheaply be modified to allow trains to run at 225 mph.

As people are bulking at the idea of spending up to £80 billion on HS2, just imagine the outcry about spending trillions to convert the old lines, let alone the mass demolition of buildings in the cities and towns they pass through, far in excess to the new HS lines being built!!

That is why the new HS lines are being built. They are, believe it or not, the cheapest and most effective way of bringing high speed travel to the UK.

So it is not "a load of twaddle", just reality!!

[Lizzie Zoom]

....................I would also add that on existing lines there are always slower train movements, such as frequently stopping locals and freight.  So the pathways for 225 mph running trains would be constantly blocked.  It would also add to the capacity problems many of our lines now face.  Free capacity for these very high speed trains is just not there.

[Doctor Gollum]

Why 225 mph? Why not 500+ in straight lines ie point to point?

I mean if we really need super high speed trains (and all the infrastructure and power etc to operate them then why not make it worth while?

Besides, the island of Britain is barely a thousand miles end to end. Being able to travel less than a third of that in an hour can already be done easily, hell, you can do Lundun to Mancchester in a car in less than five hours without having to sit next to anyone...

Your supposition that it is the most cost effective solution is misguided because the actual most cost effective solution is not to bother building it in the first place

[Lizzie Zoom]

Why 225 mph? Why not 500+ in straight lines ie point to point?

I mean if we really need super high speed trains (and all the infrastructure and power etc to operate them then why not make it worth while?

Besides, the island of Britain is barely a thousand miles end to end. Being able to travel less than a third of that in an hour can already be done easily, hell, you can do Lundun to Mancchester in a car in less than five hours without having to sit next to anyone...

Your supposition that it is the most cost effective solution is misguided because the actual most cost effective solution is not to bother building it in the first place

Because even the World's fastest commercially in service train, not as a test run, the  Shanghai Maglev,  runs at 'just' 267 mph, and only over 19 miles. It reflects that technology has not YET provided the speeds you suggest, and as you say it would need a straight line, without too many curves to allow such trains to run on. Now, in the UK we are, as you rightly say DG, a small island, and certainly not like the expanse of say the USA or Australia. 

The UK has major towns and cities quite close together, and certainly not in straight lines if you try to link them up with a HS railway. The cost, once more, would also be horrific if you tried to build very straight lines as, inevitably, they would plough through areas of habitation requiring the mass demolition of property.  The HS lines have, and are, causing much concern on that score, even though the planners are attempting to bend their new lines so as few properties are effected.

Yes, you are right, the UK could stop building new railway lines. But then we are capping any possibility of UK Ltd., developing it's business in the Midlands and North, and letting the current railway system, let alone road system, be completely over loaded and grid logged with all the additional population this country will have by 2050 and beyond. It is already being predicted that by 2045 the population will reach 76 million.
We could just sit back and watch our proud country become a poor, backward thinking, over-crowded backwater of Europe that has given up on any desire to remain a leading World economy. Do we all really want that?

So many people are concentrating on the multi-billion pound cost of building these lines, whilst ignoring the trillions of pounds they potentially will generate over many decades by expanding the business potential of the Midlands and North, whilst providing a very fast, highly efficient and environmentally sympathetic transport system for the rest of the 21st century.

[Bigron]

Re-patriation could be an option?

Ron.

[Sir Tigger KC]

The UK has major towns and cities quite close together, and certainly not in straight lines if you try to link them up with a HS railway. The cost, once more, would also be horrific if you tried to build very straight lines as, inevitably, they would plough through areas of habitation requiring the mass demolition of property.  The HS lines have, and are, causing much concern on that score, even though the planners are attempting to bend their new lines so as few properties are effected.

I am working on the solution to this in my shed. 

A solar powered laser tunneling machine!   

The lasers will melt the rock ahead at a much quicker rate than conventional tunnelling techniques and we can thus construct bigger, better, deeper tunnels in a dead straight line between cities and we'll be saving the environment in the process! 

[BazaJT]

Original post was meant to ask how when someone[company]has given a quote for a specific job,how then can costs spiral in such a fashion.When I gave a quote the customer knew that was the cost,if I misquoted then that was my loss,not a case case of oops sorry Mr Customer but that job I've done for you will now cost you 4 times as much.Anyway be that as it may[and I don't mind the sidetracking]my recent experience of rail travel was more than enough to put me off using rail travel.Scunny to Ewell[Surrey]wait for bus to get to train station,wait for train to arrive[it was late too]change at Donny wait for train to arrive/depart off at Kings Cross change stations wait for train to depart[9 carriages long virtually empty-I know as I walked its length trying to figure out how to open the damn doors to get on!]Luckily the seller of the car I'd gone to buy picked me up at the station otherwise there'd have been another bus ride/walk to reach my final destination.Journey time just short of 4 and a half hours,cost a few pence short of £110.Return journey by car,stop to add fuel,slow moving/snarled up traffic on M25 near Heathrow,stop for a "comfort break"/coffee and home.Journey time under 4hrs and fuel cost of less than £30.That was travelling solo,travelling as a family the rail cost would have spiralled by a ridiculous amount where the fuel cost by car while it would have risen due to extra weight of more people would have been negligible.

[BazaJT]

OOps sorry thought I was posting on my cost overrun thread

[Doctor Gollum]

Again twaddle.

There are plenty of businesses in the Midlands and beyond. Unfortunately they are largely based on the now largely defunct industry of digging stuff up for consumption*.

Perhaps a better use of public and tax payers money would be to set up a northern tech hub.

*Birmingham only exists because it's the geographical centre of the island and Mancchester because of the abundance of water (although it required the construction of the Mancchester Shit canal to sustain its development...)

Betterment of the links between Leeds and Mancchester makes sense, extra lines from Lundun don't.

Also, if the technology doesn't exist, why don't we invent it rather than sitting in a corner thumbsucking and whining about how crap everything is?

[Lizzie Zoom]

Again twaddle.

There are plenty of businesses in the Midlands and beyond. Unfortunately they are largely based on the now largely defunct industry of digging stuff up for consumption*.

Perhaps a better use of public and tax payers money would be to set up a northern tech hub.

*Birmingham only exists because it's the geographical centre of the island and Mancchester because of the abundance of water (although it required the construction of the Mancchester Shit canal to sustain its development...)

Betterment of the links between Leeds and Mancchester makes sense, extra lines from Lundun don't.

Also, if the technology doesn't exist, why don't we invent it rather than sitting in a corner thumbsucking and whining about how crap everything is?

Agreed, so get on with it DG!

[Varche]

The UK has major towns and cities quite close together, and certainly not in straight lines if you try to link them up with a HS railway. The cost, once more, would also be horrific if you tried to build very straight lines as, inevitably, they would plough through areas of habitation requiring the mass demolition of property.  The HS lines have, and are, causing much concern on that score, even though the planners are attempting to bend their new lines so as few properties are effected.

Good that you are inventing. Your machine would be great in sunny countries but not much use in Northern  Europe. All is not lost though as a long extension cable from sunny country solar panel would do the job!

I am working on the solution to this in my shed. 

A solar powered laser tunneling machine!   

The lasers will melt the rock ahead at a much quicker rate than conventional tunnelling techniques and we can thus construct bigger, better, deeper tunnels in a dead straight line between cities and we'll be saving the environment in the process! 

[Sir Tigger KC]

The UK has major towns and cities quite close together, and certainly not in straight lines if you try to link them up with a HS railway. The cost, once more, would also be horrific if you tried to build very straight lines as, inevitably, they would plough through areas of habitation requiring the mass demolition of property.  The HS lines have, and are, causing much concern on that score, even though the planners are attempting to bend their new lines so as few properties are effected.

Good that you are inventing. Your machine would be great in sunny countries but not much use in Northern  Europe. All is not lost though as a long extension cable from sunny country solar panel would do the job!

I am working on the solution to this in my shed. 

A solar powered laser tunneling machine!   

The lasers will melt the rock ahead at a much quicker rate than conventional tunnelling techniques and we can thus construct bigger, better, deeper tunnels in a dead straight line between cities and we'll be saving the environment in the process! 

And another extension lead from a windy place where there are lots of wind turbines and it's job jobbed! 

[Varche]

I’ve been busy this afternoon and secured you a grant of 100 million EU Euros for your project. No strings attached but initially they did query your name of Sir Tigger QC.

I have put a cheque in the post less handling charges , mafia pay offs etc. Expect a million euros in a few days.