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[05omegav6]

Been happening alot over the past few months. Some of us more guilty than others, and for various reasons.

Cem, I choose my words carefully,

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/deliberately

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/obnoxious

Both used with free choice, because that is how I feel your responses become. Sometimes slowly, chipping a bit here and a bit there, sometimes much more quickly.

I consider myself a friend of Chris', and felt your provocative post to be in extremely poor taste, whether meant in jest or not. Hence my considered response. Time after time, sensible discussions on a variety of topics are being destroyed with narrow-minded and ill considered arguments and it seems to me they all have something in common.

You invited me to speak my mind, and I have.

Al.

[paul.lovejoy]

i thought obnoxious was a slimming thing ok i will leave the post now

[Vamps]

I have to agree, I find that I am posting less and less in the more serious threads, we seem to have lost the acceptance of differing opinions...... I put together a draft for the benefits thread, from personal and professional point of view, from day to day real life experiences / situations, but chose not to post.... I want a 'bit of crack' not to be Jumped on from on high....   and imo cem would not be my first choice of people who seem to not allow a differing point of view or opinion, right or wrong, or ever refuse to have the last word.....

I can do Banter, and STMO, bless him, has been trying to put a bit of humor back, some people take this far too seriously impo......

[paul.lovejoy]

i try not to be too serious on here dont get me wrong i take the people seriously and in this particular instance in seriousness its my opinion Al has been inticed and really what would you expect after replys to posts on other subjects too

If you actually read what people say on here you get an idea of what they are about and generally where to draw the line. I personally still think this forum is great and enjoy the people on it

hopefully the line will be realised and everyone will move on

[Vamps]

i try not to be too serious on here dont get me wrong i take the people seriously and in this particular instance in seriousness its my opinion Al has been inticed and really what would you expect after replys to posts on other subjects too

If you actually read what people say on here you get an idea of what they are about and generally where to draw the line. I personally still think this forum is great and enjoy the people on it

hopefully the line will be realised and everyone will move on

I am sure it will, we have been here before, sadly though we loose posters, not necessarily members, on the way. I have noticed this recently, quite a few member's absences......

[Lazydocker]

It's one of the reasons I'm taking a bit of a break I'm not coming on here as much as I used to because I found my mouse hovering over the delete button on several occasions recently

[STMO123]

It's one of the reasons I'm taking a bit of a break I'm not coming on here as much as I used to because I found my mouse hovering over the delete button on several occasions recently

Jump...Jump...Jump....Jump...

[mantahatch]

I too find myself writing long replies and then not posting them  It is odd we cannot " agree to disagree" on quite a few subjects, and on occasions revert to "nastiness" for want ofv a better word.

And on the subject of STEMO, well it took me a very long time to "get" understand your sense of humour. I kind of get it now, and can laugh at/with most of them but I would say be careful with the newbies. They may be more delicate than those who have been around a few years.

I have only met about 4 people off the forum individually not at a meet. I think we need to say people are a bit different "in the flesh" and when you speak to them personally you realize how they are. I would like to think I am a better person "in the flesh" than how I come across in the written word.

There are one or two on here who come across as just "blunt" with me and a few others. I assume they think they know better because they earn more money than I do or have more knowledge on a particular subject than I do. It can also come across as ignorant and demeaning as they have no idea what I know or don't know. I have caught one person out on here, then again they may just not want to answer my PM.

Hey ho, who cares, the world will go on with or with out us. We are merely a tiny few in a very large world, get on with your lives.

Just my useless ramblings as always 

[Rog]

I like to try and chip in when I see something that interests me, or on which I have a concise opinion, or that I find amusing.

But all too often these days a topic descends into a series of long debates, and rants that quite fankly I can't even be arsed to read.

[cleggy]

I like to try and chip in when I see something that interests me, or on which I have a concise opinion, or that I find amusing.

But all too often these days a topic descends into a series of long debates, and rants that quite fankly I can't even be arsed to read.

I have to agree, and seem to drift off topic

[cem_devecioglu]

Been happening alot over the past few months. Some of us more guilty than others, and for various reasons.

Cem, I choose my words carefully,

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/deliberately

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/obnoxious

Both used with free choice, because that is how I feel your responses become. Sometimes slowly, chipping a bit here and a bit there, sometimes much more quickly.

I consider myself a friend of Chris', and felt your provocative post to be in extremely poor taste, whether meant in jest or not. Hence my considered response. Time after time, sensible discussions on a variety of topics are being destroyed with narrow-minded and ill considered arguments and it seems to me they all have something in common.

You invited me to speak my mind, and I have.

Al.

Al, most of the time  how you tell something is more important than what you say.. And sometimes timing is also very critical to what you say..
 
You take part on a discussion , without being objective on between two persons which also disturbed me several times..    always taking one side and being more provocative instead of being helpful and calming down..    You didnt care about how many times I'm provoked by someone and invited to an argument.. And definitely I'm not the single member who lived this scenario.. Many people see that happening but you only look from one side..
 
and latest example was When I said I know how to provoke Chris.. I just wanted to invite him to come here in a joking manner.. And you were so full of your fix thought and was far away from seeing my intention.. and told me that I finally accept this.. and that was complete nonsense..
 
I still remember how you behave and what words you use when I criticise you for recommending n th order tyre ..
if using this kinds of words on a argument is your habit, I recommend you change it..
 
 
 

[STMO123]

Most forums seem to head in this direction sooner or later. The reason people join, surely, is because it's a forum where they can ask a specific question about their omega. Most answers (99.999%) are available just by reading, no need to join. Out of the 12000 odd members, very few contribute on a regular basis.
So....most people gravitate towards general discussion which, although not the primary function of the forum, is certainly the busiest. It is the only section of the forum where a personal opinion is genuinely valid. The technical parts are mostly cut-and-dried, where a specific question has (mostly) a specific answer.
Now to expect ordinary folk to respect each others point of view, without argument (not discussion) and friction, esp on such emotive subjects as welfare, politics etc., would be akin to trying to make a better world. Gen diss is what humans do and no amount of  self-evaluation is going to change that. Personally, I try to take it all with a pinch of salt. There will be some very genuine people on here, but there will also be a few who are nothing like their online persona. It is emotionally dangerous to get too involved.
So, in conclusion, if you want people to stop acting like people, then you are on a hiding to nothing.

[Entwood]

Been happening alot over the past few months. Some of us more guilty than others, and for various reasons.

Cem, I choose my words carefully,

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/deliberately

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/obnoxious

Both used with free choice, because that is how I feel your responses become. Sometimes slowly, chipping a bit here and a bit there, sometimes much more quickly.

I consider myself a friend of Chris', and felt your provocative post to be in extremely poor taste, whether meant in jest or not. Hence my considered response. Time after time, sensible discussions on a variety of topics are being destroyed with narrow-minded and ill considered arguments and it seems to me they all have something in common.

You invited me to speak my mind, and I have.

Al.

Al, most of the time  how you tell something is more important than what you say.. And sometimes timing is also very critical to what you say..
 
You take part on a discussion , without being objective on between two persons which also disturbed me several times..    always taking one side and being more provocative instead of being helpful and calming down..    You didnt care about how many times I'm provoked by someone and invited to an argument.. And definitely I'm not the single member who lived this scenario.. Many people see that happening but you only look from one side..
 
and latest example was When I said I know how to provoke Chris.. I just wanted to invite him to come here in a joking manner.. And you were so full of your fix thought and was far away from seeing my intention.. and told me that I finally accept this.. and that was complete nonsense..
 
I still remember how you behave and what words you use when I criticise you for recommending n th order tyre ..
if using this kinds of words on a argument is your habit, I recommend you change it..

and that sums up most of the problem .... IMHO .. telling someone how they should behave, speak, or answer your posts is arrogant, conceited and .. TBH .. downright rude.

We respect your right to "speak out" on subjects that we might think you have little knowledge on .. "UK politics" being one .. where you have lectured us  unceasingly ... but you then try and tell others how and what to say ?  nah .. not on .. IMHO

[I have just deleted some stronger words to avoid accusations of provocation ....but I can soon reinstate them.]

[cem_devecioglu]

Been happening alot over the past few months. Some of us more guilty than others, and for various reasons.

Cem, I choose my words carefully,

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/deliberately

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/obnoxious

Both used with free choice, because that is how I feel your responses become. Sometimes slowly, chipping a bit here and a bit there, sometimes much more quickly.

I consider myself a friend of Chris', and felt your provocative post to be in extremely poor taste, whether meant in jest or not. Hence my considered response. Time after time, sensible discussions on a variety of topics are being destroyed with narrow-minded and ill considered arguments and it seems to me they all have something in common.

You invited me to speak my mind, and I have.

Al.

Al, most of the time  how you tell something is more important than what you say.. And sometimes timing is also very critical to what you say..
 
You take part on a discussion , without being objective on between two persons which also disturbed me several times..    always taking one side and being more provocative instead of being helpful and calming down..    You didnt care about how many times I'm provoked by someone and invited to an argument.. And definitely I'm not the single member who lived this scenario.. Many people see that happening but you only look from one side..
 
and latest example was When I said I know how to provoke Chris.. I just wanted to invite him to come here in a joking manner.. And you were so full of your fix thought and was far away from seeing my intention.. and told me that I finally accept this.. and that was complete nonsense..
 
I still remember how you behave and what words you use when I criticise you for recommending n th order tyre ..
if using this kinds of words on a argument is your habit, I recommend you change it..

and that sums up most of the problem .... IMHO .. telling someone how they should behave, speak, or answer your posts is arrogant, conceited and .. TBH .. downright rude.

We respect your right to "speak out" on subjects that we might think you have little knowledge on .. "UK politics" being one .. where you have lectured us  unceasingly ... but you then try and tell others how and what to say ?  nah .. not on .. IMHO

[I have just deleted some stronger words to avoid accusations of provocation ....but I can soon reinstate them.]

same is true fo your style also Entwood

[STMO123]

I rest my case.

[cleggy]

I rest my case.

You've obviously taken your medication this morning, that's two sensible posts in a row

[STMO123]

I rest my case.

You've obviously taken your medication this morning, that's two sensible posts in a row

Not properly awake yet. Normal service will be resumed ASAP.

[cleggy]

I rest my case.

You've obviously taken your medication this morning, that's two sensible posts in a row

Not properly awake yet. Normal service will be resumed ASAP.

GOOD 

[cem_devecioglu]

I rest my case.

You've obviously taken your medication this morning, that's two sensible posts in a row

Not properly awake yet. Normal service will be resumed ASAP.

agreed , top performance will be reached at midnight
 

[Entwood]

I rest my case.

100% accurate as usual   ...  (well .. sometimes ..       )

[cem_devecioglu]

and I must note, STMO also sometimes criticise me or some others.. but never disturbs/offends me because he tells the truth  in a perfectly witty/joking and friendly style.. and thats a very good example of how you say is important than what you say..

[albitz]

I dont want to get too involved in all this,mostly because its very tedious,but it might be worth bearing in mind (or even researching threads if you have time/inclination) that Cem wasnt the only memebr to have "strong differences of opinion" with the member who  apparently decided to leave recently. Far from it in fact.

[flyer 0712]

Glad you have sorted that lot out lads,all friends again and hope we all can get back to what the forum is all about..p.s...i have taken my pills today..cheers lads.

[tigers_gonads]

It's one of the reasons I'm taking a bit of a break I'm not coming on here as much as I used to because I found my mouse hovering over the delete button on several occasions recently

I point blank refuse to get wound up about anybody hammering away behind a keyboard anymore.
Don't get me wrong here, I've vented my spleen a few times over the years after a bad day and probably definitely pished a few folks off BUT at the end of the day it is just some bloke having a rant and should be taken as just that 

Life much too short to get wound up about petty little arguments and opinions.
After all, this is a internet forum ................ the real world is away from your computer 

[albitz]

I am slowly coming to the same conclusion,thankfully.
It is a bit of a shame though,what OOF has become from what it once was,but I suppose its inevitable.Nothing good lasts forever.

[Lizzie_Zoom]

Most forums seem to head in this direction sooner or later. The reason people join, surely, is because it's a forum where they can ask a specific question about their omega. Most answers (99.999%) are available just by reading, no need to join. Out of the 12000 odd members, very few contribute on a regular basis.
So....most people gravitate towards general discussion which, although not the primary function of the forum, is certainly the busiest. It is the only section of the forum where a personal opinion is genuinely valid. The technical parts are mostly cut-and-dried, where a specific question has (mostly) a specific answer.
Now to expect ordinary folk to respect each others point of view, without argument (not discussion) and friction, esp on such emotive subjects as welfare, politics etc., would be akin to trying to make a better world. Gen diss is what humans do and no amount of  self-evaluation is going to change that. Personally, I try to take it all with a pinch of salt. There will be some very genuine people on here, but there will also be a few who are nothing like their online persona. It is emotionally dangerous to get too involved.
So, in conclusion, if you want people to stop acting like people, then you are on a hiding to nothing.

A truer sentence has never been spoken Steve!

All of us want to express our opinions, connected to whatever knowledge we have in that subject. Some of us have few words; some do not want to commit to "paper"; others have plenty to say but get frustrated when they cannot express their views, whilst the rest have plenty of words to say and the means to express them in print.  We are all very different, and let's praise that fact!

If you think some debates on here are "heated", which actually I see as being rare, you should have attended some of the open debates I have attended in big lecture halls!!   For instance you can have 12 historians in one room, and have 14 opinions with view points, with plenty of heat behind those "professional" observations!  I joke not    Same as in business, when I have been involved in real heavy commercial matters at a high level, and normally friendly colleagues will stab each other in the back to get their opinion across. Not to everyone's taste we know, and it obviously disturbs some on here.

The bottom line is though that some of us really enjoy the "debate", and we all know their names, no doubt including mine (!!), but for those who do not want to engage in them, well fine.  Don't, and move on to another thread.  Personal insults are one thing, that I have experienced on a number of occasions, and should never be tolerated, but straightforward heavy discussion is a normal human trait in many circles, which Steve rightly highlights. To me that is nothing to worry about.  Horses for courses as some say! 

[Elite Pete]

It's one of the reasons I'm taking a bit of a break I'm not coming on here as much as I used to because I found my mouse hovering over the delete button on several occasions recently

 

Me too.
I'm bored of the cars and bored of the forum, but saying that there's more goes on here than on the MG/Rover forums

[flyer 0712]

Well said Lizzie could not have put it any better than that...

[albitz]

It's one of the reasons I'm taking a bit of a break I'm not coming on here as much as I used to because I found my mouse hovering over the delete button on several occasions recently

 

Me too.
I'm bored of the cars and bored of the forum, but saying that there's more goes on here than on the MG/Rover forums

Im bored of cars too tbh.I think Im growing out of being a petrol head.The forum most certainly aint what it was and I probably wouldnt bother at all if it werent for the long boring nightshifts keeping some level of interest alive.

[Elite Pete]

It's one of the reasons I'm taking a bit of a break I'm not coming on here as much as I used to because I found my mouse hovering over the delete button on several occasions recently

 

Me too.
I'm bored of the cars and bored of the forum, but saying that there's more goes on here than on the MG/Rover forums

Im bored of cars too tbh.I think Im growing out of being a petrol head.The forum most certainly aint what it was and I probably wouldnt bother at all if it werent for the long boring nightshifts keeping some level of interest alive.

We've still got the desmond diesel estate for skip runs, wheel chairs and picking up bits for my Rover ect but I only do about 30 miles a week so a big old bus isn't needed anymore hence the choice to go for the Rover Coupe

[albitz]

90% of my mileage is now done in my diesel veggie oil Cavalier.Omega rarely gets used,bike never gets used at all.I never thought I would see the day.....
God,Ive got old.

[Lizzie_Zoom]

90% of my mileage is now done in my diesel veggie oil Cavalier.Omega rarely gets used,bike never gets used at all.I never thought I would see the day.....
God,Ive got old.

Yep,it creeps up all too quickly Albitz!
 
I still young so I have that to come!

[Elite Pete]

90% of my mileage is now done in my diesel veggie oil Cavalier.Omega rarely gets used,bike never gets used at all.I never thought I would see the day.....
God,Ive got old.

I know i'm getting old, getting down the stairs for the first time in the morning takes ages

[paul.lovejoy]

90% of my mileage is now done in my diesel veggie oil Cavalier.Omega rarely gets used,bike never gets used at all.I never thought I would see the day.....
God,Ive got old.

blimey yes you old fart must be getting on now, most old folk change to a cavalier maybe its the name makes them feel young again

[cleggy]

90% of my mileage is now done in my diesel veggie oil Cavalier.Omega rarely gets used,bike never gets used at all.I never thought I would see the day.....
God,Ive got old.

Yep,it creeps up all too quickly Albitz!
 
I still young so I have that to come!

Bulldog crossed with a Shitzu again, you only look it, young that is on the old photo

[henryd]

90% of my mileage is now done in my diesel veggie oil Cavalier.Omega rarely gets used,bike never gets used at all.I never thought I would see the day.....
God,Ive got old.

I know i'm getting old, getting down the stairs for the first time in the morning takes ages

It won't if you trip over the top step

[cleggy]

90% of my mileage is now done in my diesel veggie oil Cavalier.Omega rarely gets used,bike never gets used at all.I never thought I would see the day.....
God,Ive got old.

I know i'm getting old, getting down the stairs for the first time in the morning takes ages

It won't if you trip over the top step

 

[cem_devecioglu]

90% of my mileage is now done in my diesel veggie oil Cavalier.Omega rarely gets used,bike never gets used at all.I never thought I would see the day.....
God,Ive got old.

no hurries, you have still plenty of time ahead

[albitz]

Doesnt feel like it today cem.I had 90 minutes sleep last night,due to body clock being up the creek,but Im going to try to stay wake until around 11pm and then hopefully go to bed and sleep through the night for the first time in a while.
Considering changing my dispack today if I can stay awake and it doesnt rain again.

[omega3000]

Doesnt feel like it today cem.I had 90 minutes sleep last night,due to body clock being up the creek,but Im going to try to stay wake until around 11pm and then hopefully go to bed and sleep through the night for the first time in a while.
Considering changing my dispack today if I can stay awake and it doesnt rain again.

Just started raining here  Changing that diss pack will make you sleep 

[cem_devecioglu]

Doesnt feel like it today cem.I had 90 minutes sleep last night,due to body clock being up the creek,but Im going to try to stay wake until around 11pm and then hopefully go to bed and sleep through the night for the first time in a while.
Considering changing my dispack today if I can stay awake and it doesnt rain again.

After the time change, my sleeps are also disturbed and I still live in the previous one   be careful, sleep disorders effect the heart not in a good way.. I have this problem also..

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

I turn 28 on Wednesday. I'm a man in my prime.

P.S.....I've just noticed my new name.

Who was it?, own up. Was it the work a certain portly admin?

[cleggy]

I remember a good nights sleep, I either wake up at 03.00 for a piss or one the dogs is pawing me to let him out at 05.00 mind you he is 10 or 70 in human years.

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

I remember a good nights sleep, I either wake up at 03.00 for a piss or one the dogs is pawing me to let him out at 05.00 mind you he is 10 or 70 in human years.

......good old fashioned piss-pot under the bed works well enough, Cleggy. You may even be able to train the mutt to use it.

[Elite Pete]

I don't drink anything after 9.30pm now, that way i'm not syphoning the python in the middle of the night

[henryd]

I don't drink anything after 9.30pm now, that way i'm not emptying the worm in the middle of the night

Fixed that for you pete

[STMO123]

I turn 28 on Wednesday. I'm a man in my prime.

P.S.....I've just noticed my new name.

Who was it?, own up. Was it the work a certain portly admin?

I think it suits you perfectly, Mr Tealeaf...oh....is that a knock at your door?

[Lizzie_Zoom]

90% of my mileage is now done in my diesel veggie oil Cavalier.Omega rarely gets used,bike never gets used at all.I never thought I would see the day.....
God,Ive got old.

Yep,it creeps up all too quickly Albitz!
 
I still young so I have that to come!

Bulldog crossed with a Shitzu again, you only look it, young that is on the old photo

    That photo is only four years old I'll have you know Cleggy

[dbug]

90% of my mileage is now done in my diesel veggie oil Cavalier.Omega rarely gets used,bike never gets used at all.I never thought I would see the day.....
God,Ive got old.

Yep,it creeps up all too quickly Albitz!
 
I still young so I have that to come!

Bulldog crossed with a Shitzu again, you only look it, young that is on the old photo

    That photo is only four years old I'll have you know Cleggy

You look older than that Lizzie 

[TheBoy]

Well I hope that cleared the air in some way or the other.

I think the guidelines are quite clear. Maybe we've been too light on the moderation recently. Are we foolishly believing that members will act their age?

This thread has the potential to go way off course, but I would ask, no demand, that the principles of the guidelines are followed from this point onwards.


Your forum, your choice.

[Jusme]

Your forum, your choice.  but I would ask, no demand?

[Webby the Bear]

Your forum, your choice.  but I would ask, no demand?

He's asking politely that the topic doesn't go off course. 

I think a lot of folk on here are far too uptight.  Simple as that. What does it really matter if someone you've never/rarely meet disagrees?

as TB says it's up to you guys but maybe agreeing to disagree is the way forward 

[ozzycat]

Your forum, your choice.  but I would ask, no demand?

He's asking politely that the topic doesn't go off course. 

I think a lot of folk on here are far too uptight.  Simple as that. What does it really matter if someone you've never/rarely meet disagrees?

as TB says it's up to you guys but maybe agreeing to disagree is the way forward 

yes i totaly agree  i admit ive had a few posts that have been a tad arsey for wich i apologize

[doz]

Have a I missed a fight? Oh bum. 

[ted_one]

I can't disagree with the views already expressed and I guess it's good to have a rant,but for me personally I did'nt join the forum to have constant verbal tear ups with people that I've never met and by looking at the attendances at the meets that I go too then that sadly will never happen anyway. Intially I think that I looked at the forum a bit like a car club and have since realised that it's not and that there seems to be a transient flow of people that take an Omega on and find out that that due to the high running costs the Omega is a bit like Guiness..an aquired taste, that in itself needs a fair amount of input to keep it running properly,that aside, in a way I can see why Chris has chosen to take a 'time out', because like a few others I try to be selective about which threads I respond to, because for me it's really about the car and even if this forum did'nt exist then I would still have my cars which I consider as a hobby/interest that gives me pleasure and  although they keep me poor my long suffering wife says it keeps me off the streets.
So I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's down to the individual members as to what their agenda is ,but call me a Philistine,shallow or even a thicko, for me personally I'm not really interested in politics,religion or topics that no matter how long you kick them around they can't be changed.Having said that, I'm off to give the cars their good morning kiss....the missus will have to wait for hers got to get my priorities right
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

[Lizzie_Zoom]

I will say no more than I have already

[cleggy]

I will say no more than I have already

Thank god for that

[Lizzie_Zoom]

I will say no more than I have already

Thank god for that

Yep Cleggy!  But that will only be a short term arrangement

[cleggy]

I will say no more than I have already

Thank god for that

Yep Cleggy!  But that will only be a short term arrangement

Will you managed it long enough for your performance to sell tickets and me to buy the interval ice cream

[Lizzie_Zoom]

I will say no more than I have already

Thank god for that

Yep Cleggy!  But that will only be a short term arrangement

Will you managed it long enough for your performance to sell tickets and me to buy the interval ice cream

That can be arranged

[Rods2]

Adding my 2-bobs worth.

If I find I'm about to repeat in a thread what I have said before, I stop and don't answer as I don't have anything further, that is constructive to say.

Most of the threads that seem to get personal seem to be just reiterating and entrenched position, where somebody is just trying to have the last word. Not only does the thread get very boring, but it serves no purpose as I understood each person's thoughts and position the first time they said it, I really don't need each side to repeat it another 50 times!

On the very odd-occasion that somebody has been offensive to me on here and I must say it has been very, very rare on OOF, where it is generally troll free, then I stand back for 24 hours, put my pram toys and front lawn tanks away before making a considered reply and this is very different to ill thought out answers given in anger and probably regretted later.

I try to avoid conflict on here as OOF is a public forum and I'm always mindful that it will put off potential new members and casual browsers, not to mention losing old and valued contributors.

Chris will be missed, he was instrumental in getting the poly bushes discounts and also starting the very helpful tramlining tyre thread and what are reliable Omega tyres at different prices. His understanding of steering and suspension problems on the Omega are second to none, not to mention many other areas where he made valuable contributions.

So, I'm sorry to see you go Chris, you will be missed and I hope the differences can be resolved, so we see you back of the forum sooner, rather than later.