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[Terbs]

2001 2.6 Elite Estate...

Been left a month and battery flat. Started it with a starter pack, took it out for a spin (couple of miles) Left it for a couple of days, tried to start it with pack, no joy. I have fully charged the battery, it turns over like the clappers, but does not start.
No codes showing. If I have flooded it, how long does it take to dry out, or do you think something else is amiss
Thanks in advance for any suggestions

[Doctor Gollum]

Pull fuse 18 and crank it with your foot flat to the floor. Then go and get a cuppa. Refit the fuse and try again.

Moral of the story? Don't turn it off until it's warmed up... especially when it's bastid freezing outside

[Terbs]

Thanks good Doctor....
Irony is, neighbour just came over, his car not started. Fixed his ok, can't do my flippin' own !!!!! 

How long should I crank it for

[Kevin Wood]

Give it a couple of goes for 5 seconds or so each, then try it.

It shouldn't even be necessary to remove the fuse. Just flooring the accelerator when you crank it will activate "flood clear" mode in the ECU, so no fuel will be injected.

Just be ready to take your foot off in case it does take off!

[Terbs]

Been out and did as you said, fellas...neither way working so far. Will leave it again and try again in a short while, Turns over high speed but no sign of a fire. Still no codes

[JamesV6CDX]

Been out and did as you said, fellas...neither way working so far. Will leave it again and try again in a short while, Turns over high speed but no sign of a fire. Still no codes

Which one is this?

Happy to pop over with diags 

[TheBoy]

How much fuel in tank, with it being a pikey estate?

If quarter or below, get a load more in there.

[JamesV6CDX]

How much fuel in tank, with it being a pikey estate?

If quarter or below, get a load more in there.

Yeah I was planning on bringing a (20 litre) can 

[Terbs]

How much fuel in tank, with it being a pikey estate?

If quarter or below, get a load more in there.

You cheeky sod, Jamie...this is upper class here !!!! Three quarters full of juice !!!! Just had another go...no joy at all.
Having horrible thoughts of busted belt, but does not make any weird noises. Had a new belt a few months ago.
Probably me being pessimistic.

[JamesV6CDX]

How much fuel in tank, with it being a pikey estate?

If quarter or below, get a load more in there.

You cheeky sod, Jamie...this is upper class here !!!! Three quarters full of juice !!!! Just had another go...no joy at all.
Having horrible thoughts of busted belt, but does not make any weird noises. Had a new belt a few months ago.
Probably me being pessimistic.

Hopefully I didn't fit it 

Does it turn over really fast?

Do you have a spare crank sensor?

Send me your mobile number, I seem to have lost it

I will check with her indoors when she gets home, but may be able to take a run over, a bit later?

[Terbs]

PM sent, James

I am in your hands (so to speak)

[JamesV6CDX]

On my way

Can you dig out some lighting and a mains power cable for my laptop / diags

Be ideal if we could use your tools as mine need sorting out after working on the BM!

[Terbs]

Struth James...its appreciated, but I did not expect you to drop everything and come over now.  !!!!!!!

[JamesV6CDX]

Just turns over and doesn't even try.

No fault codes at all.

Plenty of fuel getting to the rail. Using software you can enable the pump and hear it running.

Good compression. Nothing wrong with the belt. MAF unplugged makes no difference. Long term trims ok.

Plugs smell like fuel a bit but are not soaked.

There is, however, no spark.

I reckon given the sudden nature of it, that it's crank sensor, despite there not being a code.

Thoughts?

[The Red Baron]

As you know cs doesn't always show a code.

[Doctor Gollum]

Swap out both purple relays and try again

[omegod]

Sounding very similar to the issue with Tony H's 2.5 , new crank sensor and it still won't start, watching with interest!

[Terbs]

Swap out both purple relays and try again

As you know me to be a genuine person, good Dr, I have to ask the following

Where do the relays live.
Do you mean buy two more and swap them, or..
Take them both out and swap with each other.
Finally....what do they do !!
 But more to the point, is this a James job, or can I do it without cocking everything up

[powerslinky]

Swap out both purple relays and try again

As you know me to be a genuine person, good Dr, I have to ask the following

Where do the relays live.
Do you mean buy two more and swap them, or..
Take them both out and swap with each other.
Finally....what do they do !!
 But more to the point, is this a James job, or can I do it without cocking everything up

   
Terbs, looks like the good Dr. is off line  . .  . but he means just swap them around. they live in the triangular relay/fuse box by the battery .  They are the only 2 purple ones at the bulkhead end .    HTH        Is this a 2.6 engine ?

[Terbs]

Further to omegod's post........and firstly let me say I use genuine VX stuff where applicable..

But...if there is doubt as to the cause, and we are going to try Crank Sensor, would it be acceptable to buy a cheap one, just to see if it starts. I would then get a genuine VX one to replace the cheap one, and keep that as an emergency.
I have seen prices ranging from £18 to a massive £184 for the same part (non genuine)

Yes Al...its the 2.6 Estate (Gold)

[powerslinky]

Further to omegod's post........and firstly let me say I use genuine VX stuff where applicable..

But...if there is doubt as to the cause, and we are going to try Crank Sensor, would it be acceptable to buy a cheap one, just to see if it starts. I would then get a genuine VX one to replace the cheap one, and keep that as an emergency.
I have seen prices ranging from £18 to a massive £184 for the same part (non genuine)

Yes Al...its the 2.6 Estate (Gold)

Can you not just "borrow" one from one of the other cars just for testing purposes ?
Has to be another 2.6/3.2 though
Presume you have all ignition/dash lights when turning key to start ?

[Terbs]

I suppose that is an option,Al...the saloon is a 2.6....just wary of disturbing that engine while its running fine.
All lights are on...James did every diagnosis last night, maff, plugs, fuel, etc etc. Whirls over like a good 'un, but no spark !!!

[powerslinky]

I suppose that is an option,Al...the saloon is a 2.6....just wary of disturbing that engine while its running fine.
All lights are on...James did every diagnosis last night, maff, plugs, fuel, etc etc. Whirls over like a good 'un, but no spark !!!

Can understand that Terbs,  you don't want to bugger that one .
IMO  crank sensor is the prime candidate . . . think you need to dismiss that first

 

[Terbs]

For the price of a cheap one, its a no brainer. I am under the impression that a cheap one will work....but its for how long is the question !!!!
As I said, if it starts, then I would shell out for the pucker job. Probably have a go at those relay things if it stops snowing !!!!
Got two cars working, so not dire urgent

[powerslinky]

For the price of a cheap one, its a no brainer. I am under the impression that a cheap one will work....but its for how long is the question !!!!
As I said, if it starts, then I would shell out for the pucker job. Probably have a go at those relay things if it stops snowing !!!!

Those purple relays do  fuel pump & injectors I  think        The good Dr. will advise, & if these will cause a "no spark" issue  . . .but unlikely IMO

[JamesV6CDX]

Have you bought that bloody crank sensor yet 

If so I will pop over and we can fire her up

[Terbs]

No I haven't James...just going to send for one !
Patience man, patience

[powerslinky]

Have you bought that bloody crank sensor yet 

If so I will pop over and we can fire her up

    like your confidence James     

[pauls]

No I haven't James...just going to send for one !
Patience man, patience

i have a spare here if you want it for testing

[Terbs]

No I haven't James...just going to send for one !
Patience man, patience

i have a spare here if you want it for testing

Thanks for your kind offer Paul, but I have ordered a cheapy for test purposes. Can't get up to you just yet due to commitments, but thanks again Top man

[Doctor Gollum]

One relay switches the fuel pump, tother the injectors.

I meant swap them with those on tother car, as if either one is faulty, then you'll get the same results... no fuel in the cylinders. I have seen both fail on a handful of cars, and that it's even possible is enough to rule it out.

If you turn the ignition to 2 for a minute, then off and crack the larger fitting on the fuel rail that will confirm whether the pump relay is working. If you then swap them with each other and the result changes then you'll have identified the faulty one.

I appreciate the reluctance to take them from the other car, but it's a free test. And if no change then you might be looking at the pump if you've no pressure at the fuel rail.

A sharp tap of the relays whilst cranking might be enough, likewise slap the bottom of the tank whilst cranking should be enough to get the pump going if the relays check out.

Be advised that the relays are tight, and the one with the larger red and red/blue wires is the injector relay

They live in the box with the ecu and are the same.

[Terbs]

Hi matey,
There is petrol coming up alright. Can hear the pump and it gushed out last night when it was cranked

[Doctor Gollum]

Ok, swap the injector relay for one from other car

[STEMO]

Thought we had fuel....no spark?

[Doctor Gollum]

Thought we had fuel....no spark?

Fuel at the rail means just that. Fuel from the injectors is a different issue.

Besides an injector fault or sensor failure should raise a code, relay faults don't.

[STEMO]

Thought we had fuel....no spark?

Fuel at the rail means just that. Fuel from the injectors is a different issue.

Besides an injector fault or sensor failure should raise a code, relay faults don't.

OK 

[Terbs]

One relay switches the fuel pump, tother the injectors.

I meant swap them with those on tother car, as if either one is faulty, then you'll get the same results... no fuel in the cylinders. I have seen both fail on a handful of cars, and that it's even possible is enough to rule it out.

If you turn the ignition to 2 for a minute, then off and crack the larger fitting on the fuel rail that will confirm whether the pump relay is working. If you then swap them with each other and the result changes then you'll have identified the faulty one.

I appreciate the reluctance to take them from the other car, but it's a free test. And if no change then you might be looking at the pump if you've no pressure at the fuel rail.

A sharp tap of the relays whilst cranking might be enough, likewise slap the bottom of the tank whilst cranking should be enough to get the pump going if the relays check out.

Be advised that the relays are tight, and the one with the larger red and red/blue wires is the injector relay

They live in the box with the ecu and are the same.

That is tomorrow's job

[TD]

Thought we had fuel....no spark?

Fuel at the rail means just that. Fuel from the injectors is a different issue.

Besides an injector fault or sensor failure should raise a code, relay faults don't.

OK 

But James said theres no spark  .......

[Terbs]

There wasn't....James took the diss pack off and got a/the plugs out and wired it up to check. We tried a couple of times but there was diddly squat. He also did a compression test which showed perfect compression.
However, to discount everything, I/we will try all the suggestions offered

[Steve B]

Terbert.. how much did you pay for your cheapo one ?  I have this brand new one from VX  sat in the garage

[Terbs]

Hi Steve..
I only paid about £12, so it isn't going to break the bank, but it should see whether it will start or not. If successful, and yours is going spare, I'll give you the nod. Thanks mate

[Webby the Bear]

Forget fuel... you've no spark! 

Try the CS as James previously said 

[powerslinky]

Just fishing for info for future reference here . . . The good Dr. has suggested swopping the mauve relays from another car.

 We have been told  there is no spark ? , as James has tested for this.

 So . . . would/can either of the mauve relays (fuel pump & injectors)
if faulty . . . cause a no spark situation ?

[Kevin Wood]

So . . . would/can either of the mauve relays (fuel pump & injectors)
if faulty . . . cause a no spark situation ?

Yes, I believe so, as one of them powers the ECU and all related systems (although the coil packs are fed straight from the ignition switch).

[powerslinky]

So . . . would/can either of the mauve relays (fuel pump & injectors)
if faulty . . . cause a no spark situation ?

Yes, I believe so, as one of them powers the ECU and all related systems (although the coil packs are fed straight from the ignition switch).

Thanks Kevin  . . . will log that in the memory bank 

[Doctor Gollum]

So . . . would/can either of the mauve relays (fuel pump & injectors)
if faulty . . . cause a no spark situation ?

Yes, I believe so, as one of them powers the ECU and all related systems (although the coil packs are fed straight from the ignition switch).

Coil pack primary comes from the ignition but triggers are from the ECU likewise the injectors, power from relay feeds them, and the triggers are from the ECU.

[Terbs]

That is the beauty of this forum, and the wealth of knowledge of you chaps. I know this thread is a bit long winded now, but by 'eck, have I picked up some really useful gen, not normally found
Never got chance to try relays today...peeing down, then visitors.

[Bigron]

I second that whole-heartedly, "terbert" - nowhere else would you uncover those hidden secrets, nor would you find better, more obliging folks,
Thanks to all from me, too. 

Ron.

[JamesV6CDX]

Only asking for my own learning here, but if there were an issue with power not reaching the ECU, how come I'm able to connect to it, interrogate it for its software version / fault codes,  and get live data readings / perform actuator tests such as running the fuel pump, etc?

It's a genuine question as my simple brain tells me if the ECU wasn't being powered, I wouldn't be able to interrogate it in that way

[Kevin Wood]

Only asking for my own learning here, but if there were an issue with power not reaching the ECU, how come I'm able to connect to it, interrogate it for its software version / fault codes,  and get live data readings / perform actuator tests such as running the fuel pump, etc?

It's a genuine question as my simple brain tells me if the ECU wasn't being powered, I wouldn't be able to interrogate it in that way

Good point. Had missed that. If the ECU is getting power (and it must be, as you say) but there's no spark it's most likely the crank sensor.

[Doctor Gollum]

Only asking for my own learning here, but if there were an issue with power not reaching the ECU, how come I'm able to connect to it, interrogate it for its software version / fault codes,  and get live data readings / perform actuator tests such as running the fuel pump, etc?

It's a genuine question as my simple brain tells me if the ECU wasn't being powered, I wouldn't be able to interrogate it in that way

Again, the ECU having power is very different to the injectors getting power

[Marks DTM Calib]

So . . . would/can either of the mauve relays (fuel pump & injectors)
if faulty . . . cause a no spark situation ?

Yes, I believe so, as one of them powers the ECU and all related systems (although the coil packs are fed straight from the ignition switch).

Coil pack primary comes from the ignition but triggers are from the ECU likewise the injectors, power from relay feeds them, and the triggers are from the ECU.

Spark firing is from low side drivers inside the ECU, injectors positive supply is via the relay with again low side drivers to pulse them.

Hence relay failure should see no fuel injection but spark present.

[Terbs]

Crank sensor fitted. Vehicle started first turn of the key.
Sensor only cost £11.80 from the bay. I intend to use it as a guinea pig and see how long it lasts. (I shall carry a spare with all three cars now !!!!)
Thanks to all who contributed to the thread. All ideas tried, and a lot has been learned and we got there in the end .

[Doctor Gollum]

Job jobbed then 

[terry paget]

My impression is that only the 2.5s are fussy about crank sensors, I fitted my 3.2 with an e-bay sensor five years ago and it's still running. Doubtless others will correct me.

[Bigron]

Mr. Terbert, could you please lik me to where you got that budget sensor from - I am getting nervous! 

Ron.

[Steve B]

Mr. Terbert, could you please lik me to where you got that budget sensor from - I am getting nervous! 

Ron.

I was thinking that too...They are £70+ from main dealer on TC ...

[omega2018]

delphi brand ones are £20 on ebay 10K miles on mine so far no problems.

[terry paget]

That is twice in the last three months that a V6 has refused to start, and has caused many wise men to puzzle over it, to turn out to be failed crank sensor. On straight 4 Omegas cam sensors are the usual culprit.

Funny how we never learn, isn't it?

[JamesV6CDX]

Only time will tell, but upon fitting this £12 sensor it looked to be well made to me. As long as you have a spare, not much to be lost IMHO. As I said to terbs - would cost that in petrol just to get to the dealer!

[TD]

That is twice in the last three months that a V6 has refused to start, and has caused many wise men to puzzle over it, to turn out to be failed crank sensor. On straight 4 Omegas cam sensors are the usual culprit.

Funny how we never learn, isn't it?

On 2.2's they will start with failed cam sensors.....takes about 5-10 secs of cranking but they will start....as I proved to TB after he unplugged mine many moons ago 

[terry paget]

That is twice in the last three months that a V6 has refused to start, and has caused many wise men to puzzle over it, to turn out to be failed crank sensor. On straight 4 Omegas cam sensors are the usual culprit.

Funny how we never learn, isn't it?

On 2.2's they will start with failed cam sensors.....takes about 5-10 secs of cranking but they will start....as I proved to TB after he unplugged mine many moons ago 

Thank you. I didn't know that. I have had several fail on 2.0s, but none on 2.2s. I always reckonned if an ECU had information from  a crank sensor it should have enough to run the engine. All it learns from the cam sensor is which stroke each pot is on; with only 2 choices it could work it out.

[TheBoy]

Mr. Terbert, could you please lik me to where you got that budget sensor from - I am getting nervous! 

Ron.

I was thinking that too...They are £70+ from main dealer on TC ...

£40 for 3.2 one about 4 months ago...

[Bigron]

I got one! Arrived today, 2/3 days earlier than promised - Ebay item no.  181472148652
£11.80 including postage - can't be bad!   

Ron.

[TD]

That is twice in the last three months that a V6 has refused to start, and has caused many wise men to puzzle over it, to turn out to be failed crank sensor. On straight 4 Omegas cam sensors are the usual culprit.

Funny how we never learn, isn't it?

On 2.2's they will start with failed cam sensors.....takes about 5-10 secs of cranking but they will start....as I proved to TB after he unplugged mine many moons ago 

Thank you. I didn't know that. I have had several fail on 2.0s, but none on 2.2s. I always reckonned if an ECU had information from  a crank sensor it should have enough to run the engine. All it learns from the cam sensor is which stroke each pot is on; with only 2 choices it could work it out.

But you are nearly fooked if you have parked facing uphill in a one way street....as it will be in limp mode when it starts and tries to pull away in 3rd gear if auto....but if you remember to select 1st gear, it will move 

You are lucky if none of your 2.2's haven't suffered cam sensor failure .... its fairly common....

[Doctor Gollum]

And easily identified by the really frightening gearbox codes... Like Replace Gearbox Immediately one