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[rds]

Hello

has anyone on the forum done this successfully?

I've sourced spare sumps just in case and was thinking of putting a drain plug kit in each sump of the AR25 box.

Although the sumps seem to have provision in their sides for an OEM drain because of the shape (perhaps in previous incarnations of this box?) If I follow the two most obvious places on the rear of each sump, and use them for the drain location, the result would be one on each side of the car. I suppose this poses no practical difficulty if using a large enough container, unless anyone can suggest otherwise, and the filler is on one side of one sump anyway.

I've tried to insert a pic or two to this thread but without success! (doesn't bode well for the job does it???!)

cheers

RDS

[biggriffin]

Considering, the oil only needs dropping ever 80k, when you take the stumps off to weld in the bungs, you've all ready drained most of it out, then you need to remove the filter, so ask yourself, is it worth the aggro, of tigging  two bungs in the stumps, in my world, not worth the hassle.

[STEMO]

Considering, the oil only needs dropping ever 80k, when you take the stumps off to weld in the bungs, you've all ready drained most of it out, then you need to remove the filter, so ask yourself, is it worth the aggro, of tigging  two bungs in the stumps, in my world, not worth the hassle.

That seems logical, Mr Spock 

[amba]

Auto box is one of those things that if it aint bust and working properly best left alone.

Given that ATF is good for nearly 100k most Omegas will only ever see 2 changes in their life at best ,unless issues with box.

Agree with Mr.BG for the effort its not really a necessary mod although would of been a good idea at the original design stage by GM

[rds]

Points taken, thanks, but the kit requires a simple drill through and nut each wound over the end of a hollow bolt. The hollow shaft has its own drain bolt, so no welding necessary, washers of course are used!

Has anyone done it? If so where did they drill through?
What other incarnations of the AR25 box had the drain installed?
Can you drain using suction via the fill/level plug?

[Nick W]

Points taken, thanks, but the kit requires a simple drill through and nut each wound over the end of a hollow bolt. The hollow shaft has its own drain bolt, so no welding necessary, washers of course are used!

Has anyone done it? If so where did they drill through?

There isn't a lot of clearance inside the sump, so you would have to be very careful where you put the hollow bolt.
I've thought about this, and if I ever have to remove the main sump would weld an M14 boss to the vertical rear edge of the main sump. This would allow use of the same £1 drain plug as in the engine sump.


Not having a drain plug on the trans is inconvenient. Deleting the dipstick/filler as used on the earlier boxes that the 4L30 is based on was a truly stupid idea.

[VXL V6]

Sassanach did this mod on one of my cars. Does allow you to save yourself an ATF shower 

[Shackeng]

Points taken, thanks, but the kit requires a simple drill through and nut each wound over the end of a hollow bolt. The hollow shaft has its own drain bolt, so no welding necessary, washers of course are used!

Has anyone done it? If so where did they drill through?
What other incarnations of the AR25 box had the drain installed?
Can you drain using suction via the fill/level plug?

Yes

[cam.in.head]

Simple solution.i did mine by drilling an 8mm clearance hole in the bottom,near front away from any internals.then used an m8 x15 flanged bolt with copper washer through hole with an upside down castelated nut welded inside.

[rds]

There isn't a lot of clearance inside the sump, so you would have to be very careful where you put the hollow bolt.[/quote]

I had the same fear: I was planning to take the filter off and try to gauge how much clearance there is; the error for margin is quite small as to where the drain can go when you consider the diameter of the kit's washer.

From what you are saying, I assume that the edge of the filter is tight up against the inner surface of the sump all round the filter's perimeter?

[Marks DTM Calib]

I have done this on a few many moons ago.

In my case I braised a nut onto the inside of the sump pans and then added a few notches to it to aid draining.

[rds]

So drain not on the side but on the bottom of the sump?

[Webby the Bear]

This is just my opinion and how I do it.

Oil sucker with slightly bent tube to get right to the bottom of the pan. Refill using a Cuprinol fence sprayer as per the guide. Spot on.

I did mine few weeks back and got 3.5 litres out. I just repeat this at every service.

[Shackeng]

This is just my opinion and how I do it.

Oil sucker with slightly bent tube to get right to the bottom of the pan. Refill using a Cuprinol fence sprayer as per the guide. Spot on.

I did mine few weeks back and got 3.5 litres out. I just repeat this at every service.

Ditto

[rds]

cheers both, i'll give the suction draining a go, then drop the sump and change the filter. As for filling, i was going to use the same pump rather than buying yet another tool, although having read the guide, i can see the benefit.

I'll aim for 3.5L at least!

[biggriffin]

This is just my opinion and how I do it.

Oil sucker with slightly bent tube to get right to the bottom of the pan. Refill using a Cuprinol fence sprayer as per the guide. Spot on.

I did mine few weeks back and got 3.5 litres out. I just repeat this at every service.

The gearbox and cooler takes 8.5L. and only needs doing every 80k.
Your just making work for no reason.
Do it properly once. Job done.

[78bex]

Auto box is one of those things that if it aint bust and working properly best left alone.

Given that ATF is good for nearly 100k most Omegas will only ever see 2 changes in their life at best ,unless issues with box.

Agree with Mr.BG for the effort its not really a necessary mod although would of been a good idea at the original design stage by GM

Totally agree my Mig is low miles & as far as I can ascertain has never had  new oil 

I just keep remembering a auto astra in the family a few years back that supposedly was overdue a trans oil change. I t was fine before the oil change
That box had a drain plug & a dip stick so really easy to swop the oli out 
Within a day of running on the new proper spec oil My BIL reported that  it was throwing the gearbox warning light on the dash  & refusing to change up correctly.
It went from bad to worse & he got shot in the end.
New oil on old worn clutch packs  I do wonder if that was the problem
Was that just a one off or maybe someone knows different 

[rds]

.....or burned out clutches already and the oil change was too late?

an oil change on it's own won't solve much: i would think a filter change at the same time is the recommendation. Car has had a lot of slow town work and occasional motorway use. Changes are ok at the moment, have purchased Comma semi synthetic Dexron III not VI as one supplier mentioned.

[TheBoy]

With drains and sucking, how are you cleaning the magnet and filter? Or checking thrust washer is in one piece?

Drop the sumps, its not "hard", just bloody messy!

[X30XE]

With drains and sucking, how are you cleaning the magnet and filter? Or checking thrust washer is in one piece?

Drop the sumps, its not "hard", just bloody messy!

Think their point is to avoid it being so messy rather than to negate proper dismantle-en-tation and inspection. 

[X30XE]

Auto box is one of those things that if it aint bust and working properly best left alone (and then sell it to someone else when the problems start).

Given that ATF is good for nearly 100k most Omegas will only ever see 2 changes in their life at best ,unless issues with box.

Agree with Mr.BG for the effort its not really a necessary mod although would of been a good idea at the original design stage by GM

 

[rds]

With drains and sucking, how are you cleaning the magnet and filter? Or checking thrust washer is in one piece?

Drop the sumps, its not "hard", just bloody messy!

drain/suck first then drop the sump is what i had intended so as to avoid the mess.

[rds]

Auto box is one of those things that if it aint bust and working properly best left alone (and then sell it to someone else when the problems start).

i know you're kidding, but that's not the way i work or buy!

[Nick W]

Auto box is one of those things that if it aint bust and working properly best left alone (and then sell it to someone else when the problems start).

i know you're kidding, but that's not the way i work or buy!

He's not kidding, if the trans hasn't had fluid changes already then top it up and leave it alone!

[rds]

Auto box is one of those things that if it aint bust and working properly best left alone (and then sell it to someone else when the problems start).

i know you're kidding, but that's not the way i work or buy!

He's not kidding, if the trans hasn't had fluid changes already then top it up and leave it alone!

Seriously? no filter change, no clean out? Why? You wouldn't treat a motorcycle multi-plate wet clutch, or an overdrive box, that way (ATF often used there too).

[Nick W]

Auto box is one of those things that if it aint bust and working properly best left alone (and then sell it to someone else when the problems start).

i know you're kidding, but that's not the way i work or buy!

He's not kidding, if the trans hasn't had fluid changes already then top it up and leave it alone!

Seriously? no filter change, no clean out? Why? You wouldn't treat a motorcycle multi-plate wet clutch, or an overdrive box, that way (ATF often used there too).

I agree that treating it as a sealed unit is a bad idea, but the fluid changes should have happened at much lower mileages than we're now talking about. It is not uncommon for a high mileage trans to fail after doing such a fluid change, which seems to be because the new fluid isn't carrying the friction materials.


Omegas don't suffer from unreliable transmissions, but they're now at the age where legitimate wear must be considered both reasonable and acceptable.

[rds]

I'm at 62k now hence the thought of this job, now.

The other consideration is that i can't find a better example of this car (had it from  new) and worse still, no one seems to make estates with this carrying ability, style, at a reasonable price. I dont want to change it for something that is laden with more "crap toys".

[Doctor Gollum]

I'm at 62k now hence the thought of this job, now.

The other consideration is that i can't find a better example of this car (had it from  new) and worse still, no one seems to make estates with this carrying ability, style, at a reasonable price. I dont want to change it for something that is laden with more "crap toys".

Too late, every 40k/4 years would have been much better

[rds]

agreed, but not half as bad as at 80k!

[TheBoy]

I would definately change the fluid and clean the filter and magnet, no matter how long its been in.

[rds]

I would definately change the fluid and clean the filter and magnet, no matter how long its been in.

It will be done! i just wanted to see if the other mods (drain plugs) had been tried with success or could be improved

[cam.in.head]

I suppose it depends on how ofter you plan on changing the fluid after this time. Obviously to fit the drain means sumps off first anyway to get in to do filter .when i did mine it meant i could drain it all out ,fit filter ,check for thrust washer ,clean magnet.then after doin a couple more drain and refills a day or two apart meant that i got more of the old oil out that you dont always get out just by draining. Not everybody will use the " flush as you drain " method with flushing machine / pump. I think thats how you would describe it !

[rds]

Well, the easier the draining is the more likely it will get done.

Remind me re checking thrust washer please?

The flush as you drain method would be attractive except as to the risk of oil everywhere, knowing me.

[cam.in.head]

I think it involves disconnecting a line and pumping new fluid in whilst old is coming out. Someone else should be able to clarify this

[cam.in.head]

The thrust washer can fall apart and bits can be found in the small sump i think ? ?

[rds]

ok so it's looking for signs of the washer not being able to deal with it there and then?

[Shackeng]

ok so it's looking for signs of the washer not being able to deal with it there and then?

Correct, I'm afraid the box has to come out to replace it.

[cam.in.head]

At least if you 'didnt' find it then that would be some piece of mind.if you did thou what symptoms does it throw up ? Now or eventually ?

[aaronjb]

At least if you 'didnt' find it then that would be some piece of mind.if you did thou what symptoms does it throw up ? Now or eventually ?

Banging into gear initially and eventually no longer going into gear, IIRC

[rds]

I'll make a note to look out for remnants then.

[Shackeng]

At least if you 'didnt' find it then that would be some piece of mind.if you did thou what symptoms does it throw up ? Now or eventually ?

Mine just didn't feel right. It didn't fail to change, just not correctly all the time. The replacement washers are much sturdier, I think I may have one or two in the spares cubby.

[Webby the Bear]

Cleaning the magnet. Wats the need? It's a magnet and will be covered again in a weeks time?

Dropping the oil you'll probably get a litre more than I did from sucking it out.

[Doctor Gollum]

Torque convertor should have a drain plug too

[Webby the Bear]

Absolutely if it was possible 

Seriously tho as I said before it is just my opinion and the way I do it. (And just to add my gb shifts smooth as fek) it's your motor u do what u want with it. 

My opinion would be if the T washer had fallen apart you would have shifting issues and if not going in to gear (as it was mentioned before...I didn't know that) well at that stage stick a new box in if old one has to come out. Again it's what I'd do as I presume the gb would have to be stripped to get to it? If so I can't be bothered to do that and to be fair I'd probably fek it up lol




 

[78bex]

cheers both, i'll give the suction draining a go, then drop the sump and change the filter. As for filling, i was going to use the same pump rather than buying yet another tool, although having read the guide, i can see the benefit.

I'll aim for 3.5L at least!

Now this is only a thought mind you for filling 
Buy a decent length of clear tube with a dia that will be a push fit into the trans hole
snake it up until it`s proud of the top of the engine.
Connect a funnel to the top of the tube & using gravity pour in the red stuff .

Alright I`ll come clean someone else thought of that   

  https://youtu.be/tno0NfJmsSo

   https://youtu.be/ldUFUeV71us

 

[Shackeng]

Absolutely if it was possible 

Seriously tho as I said before it is just my opinion and the way I do it. (And just to add my gb shifts smooth as fek) it's your motor u do what u want with it. 

My opinion would be if the T washer had fallen apart you would have shifting issues and if not going in to gear (as it was mentioned before...I didn't know that) well at that stage stick a new box in if old one has to come out. Again it's what I'd do as I presume the gb would have to be stripped to get to it? If so I can't be bothered to do that and to be fair I'd probably fek it up lol

Not much has to come off, its a very straightforward job.

[TheBoy]

Cleaning the magnet. Wats the need? It's a magnet and will be covered again in a weeks time?

If it does, the box is properly buggered.

The magnet is designed to hold the metal filings that the gearbox sheds, until gearbox service is required.  Thus, with every gearbox service, it needs cleaning.

It also gives an indication to the state of the box.

[rds]

cheers both, i'll give the suction draining a go, then drop the sump and change the filter. As for filling, i was going to use the same pump rather than buying yet another tool, although having read the guide, i can see the benefit.

I'll aim for 3.5L at least!

Now this is only a thought mind you for filling 
Buy a decent length of clear tube with a dia that will be a push fit into the trans hole
snake it up until it`s proud of the top of the engine.
Connect a funnel to the top of the tube & using gravity pour in the red stuff .

Alright I`ll come clean someone else thought of that   

  https://youtu.be/tno0NfJmsSo

   https://youtu.be/ldUFUeV71us

 

This was a brilliant find thanks! I searched Youtube under AR25 and found little of use. Questions arise however:
1 does running the car and trans as it is losing fluid in the pump-put phase risk damaging the gearbox internals at all?
2 during the various flush phases, is the technician replacing the fill plug before running the engine?
3  how much fluid am i likely to get through? 15L, 20L? Need  to buy in advance and doe want it sitting around after!
4 I sat that the technician shifted into Reverse once and Drive a few times (say for 30 secs each).
I assume he had footbrake on as well as handbrake (even though on axle stands)?
Why did he not shift into 1, 2, 3 during the process?

many thanks.

I can just see me flooding the drive.....

RDS

[aaronjb]

Why did he not shift into 1, 2, 3 during the process?

Because unless you actually drove it while up in the air (i.e. reached "speeds"), the difference between D, 1, 2, 3 is nothing - they're 1, 1, 1 and 1

[rds]

Indeed true, but many generic workshop manuals do state to run through the gears. And the tacho remained steady so he wasn't revving it.

any answers on the other questions, anyone?

[Kevin Wood]

There may have been some merit for purely hydraulic gearboxes, as you might bleed a little more air out of the passages in the control block but, until you have actually driven it through all the gears, their hydraulic actuators won't have filled with fluid. Hence, you go for a drive and then check the level again.

In actual fact, unless you've run it with an empty sump or dismantled the gearbox more extensively, you won't have let any air in.

[rds]

thanks Kevin

...so no need to shift through all gears during the flush process but a good idea when doing the road rest afterward?

any views on the other items please?

cheers

RDS

[Marks DTM Calib]

Absolutely if it was possible 

Seriously tho as I said before it is just my opinion and the way I do it. (And just to add my gb shifts smooth as fek) it's your motor u do what u want with it. 

My opinion would be if the T washer had fallen apart you would have shifting issues and if not going in to gear (as it was mentioned before...I didn't know that) well at that stage stick a new box in if old one has to come out. Again it's what I'd do as I presume the gb would have to be stripped to get to it? If so I can't be bothered to do that and to be fair I'd probably fek it up lol

You've been in the trade to long Webby 

[Webby the Bear]

Absolutely if it was possible 

Seriously tho as I said before it is just my opinion and the way I do it. (And just to add my gb shifts smooth as fek) it's your motor u do what u want with it. 

My opinion would be if the T washer had fallen apart you would have shifting issues and if not going in to gear (as it was mentioned before...I didn't know that) well at that stage stick a new box in if old one has to come out. Again it's what I'd do as I presume the gb would have to be stripped to get to it? If so I can't be bothered to do that and to be fair I'd probably fek it up lol

You've been in the trade to long Webby 

Lol maybe you're right

[Kevin Wood]

any views on the other items please?

OK, here goes:

1 does running the car and trans as it is losing fluid in the pump-put phase risk damaging the gearbox internals at all?

As long as you stop the engine as soon as the flow stops, probably not. If you're going to flush like this, though, I would add fluid as you remove it so it never runs dry.

2 during the various flush phases, is the technician replacing the fill plug before running the engine?

Yes, if he's doing what I think he is.

3  how much fluid am i likely to get through? 15L, 20L? Need  to buy in advance and doe want it sitting around after!

Box holds 9 litres from memory. You'd want a bit more than that to ensure a thorough flush. Probably not worth bothering with less than 10L, 15 may be better. Then again, a sumps-off fluid change only changes about 6 or 7 litres.

4 I sat that the technician shifted into Reverse once and Drive a few times (say for 30 secs each).
I assume he had footbrake on as well as handbrake (even though on axle stands)?
Why did he not shift into 1, 2, 3 during the process?

He's probably trying to flush fluid through the passages in the gearbox. I wouldn't bother. There's a negligible quantity of fluid there. It'll be just as effective in Park.


The one advantage of this method of flushing is that you can replace the couple of litres of fluid in the torque converter which will normally remain unchanged.

However, in my opinion, the best method of all would be to drop the sumps to drain the fluid, check for thrust washer bits and clean the magnet and filter, then refit the sumps, refill the rear sump with fluid, disconnect one of the fluid cooler lines and run the engine, topping up the rear sump as required. Once the fluid runs clear, reconnect the cooler line, start engine, top up fluid and take it for a drive.

The fluid cooler takes fluid returning from the torque converter, so by this method you can get fresh fluid into the torque converter and replace that couple of litres that didn't come out of the sumps.

Then again, it's a lot of faff in comparison to just dropping the sumps, which is tried and tested here, uses less fluid and almost as effective.

[Kevin Wood]

Actually, having watched it again, in the first video he's really just emptying the sump using the gearbox's pump. No point in doing that, really, take out the sump plug and collect what drains out, then remove the sumps and drain the rest.

During the second phase of flushing, he re-uses old fluid that came out during the first flush. No point in doing that either, it's mostly old fluid so throw it away!

But really, just dropping the sumps and refilling is fine, although you can also blow the fluid cooler and lines clear with an airline to get a little more of the old fluid out.

[rds]

Hello Kevin

many thanks for putting the time into watching the video and responding so comprehensively.

Please bear in mind that the sumps i have do not currently have a drain plug; I was thinking of fitting them. Initially I was impressed with how the chap in the video used the pump to remove most of the sump contents, but I became more worried about band damage as he continued to run dry. However if I can siphon or pump out almost as much via the filler hole (and then remove sumps, clean magnet and sumps, change filter and gasket, fit drain kit) then I reckon i may save myself a lot of faff/potential damage/slippery drive for nearly the same result.

It does look like a multi-stage process and now I can see why the trans shops are charging!

I also did wonder if he re-used the same oil twice but i concluded that the second lot out was just merely still dirty.

thanks again

RDS

[Kevin Wood]

I got hold of a couple of sumps years ago with a view to fitting drain plugs to them but I've never bothered. The need to check for a disintegrating thrust washer (and perhaps save the gearbox) means they have to come off and, in my opinion, it's therefore not worth bothering.

[rds]

yes i see what you mean, but for me the drain plug was to assist the first part of the job: keeping a clean driveway! the sumps are coming off anyway but I don't want a tidal wave of Tizer all over me!

[Kevin Wood]

Fair enough. That may be enough motivation to do it! ATF in the hair is not fun!

I was thinking about welding a section of thicker steel to the sump, then drilling and tapping it and fitting a normal style sump drain plug.

[TheBoy]

Fair enough. That may be enough motivation to do it! ATF in the hair is not fun!

I was thinking about welding a section of thicker steel to the sump, then drilling and tapping it and fitting a normal style sump drain plug.

It would have to go on the side, not the bottom, of the sumps, if my AR35 sumps are anything to go by.  Having lost a (engine) sump plug before at speed, due to it hanging lower than anything else, I'm quite wary now....

[Kevin Wood]

Fair enough. That may be enough motivation to do it! ATF in the hair is not fun!

I was thinking about welding a section of thicker steel to the sump, then drilling and tapping it and fitting a normal style sump drain plug.

It would have to go on the side, not the bottom, of the sumps, if my AR35 sumps are anything to go by.  Having lost a (engine) sump plug before at speed, due to it hanging lower than anything else, I'm quite wary now....

Indeed. Another reason why I haven't bothered.

[rds]

Fair enough. That may be enough motivation to do it! ATF in the hair is not fun!

I was thinking about welding a section of thicker steel to the sump, then drilling and tapping it and fitting a normal style sump drain plug.

I lost my hair a way back but still don't want the stuff everywhere!

Yes, I was wondering how well the drain kit would work out - I hope to get to it soon. I also thought of the welding and tapping route but figured this would be a quicker way. I am hoping there is plenty of latitude in positioning, which may not be the case if the filter has little clearance below it.

Side or back drain position will help in draining when car is jacked up; but i don't think I see that the drain will hang down much further than the exhaust clamps. Having said that, i got into the bad habit of straddling the pillow type speed humps and it won't take much to tear...

cheers

RDS

[Shackeng]

If you can find a Senny Auto with an AR35 in a scrappy, the rear sump has a drain plug rear RH corner.

[rds]

Hello again

a Senator eh? Shame that accessible scrappies are few and far between these days...

A "parts interchange list" for the Omega would be a great asset - is there one?

cheers

RDS