Topic: Ways to get better Acceleration with Auto V6? (Read 5350 times)

richardirv · « **on:** 10 August 2007, 16:12:17 »

[size=14]Hi, I am taking my 2.6 MV6 Auto to santa pod next month and quite frankly even though the 2.6 is a quick car! the Acceleration (0-60) is a bit poor, I time mine at around 9.5 seconds ish! I would like to know if there are any techniques that can help me get a better start! A few people have said rev and try dropping into D but, I dont think thats a good idea! does anyone here know if that will hurt my baby?

any suggestions welcome!!

Dont wanna look a fool on the drag strip!!! LOL

Cheers

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mahony · « **Reply #1 on:** 10 August 2007, 16:18:52 »

use sports mode,thats the only way you will improve initial acceleration.i would not get the revs up and drop into D you may end up busting the box and a large bill to follow.

Danny · « **Reply #2 on:** 10 August 2007, 16:24:38 »

a month away? plenty of time to put a manual box in it

Grumpy · « **Reply #3 on:** 10 August 2007, 16:25:37 »

A few people have said rev and try dropping into D

Seems like a good method to put a great big shock loading throughout
your drivetrain.

How many minutes did you say you intended to keep the car?

You can't buck the laws of physics. You have to overcome inertia.
How quick you do that will depend on the engine's power output and
gearing, not how much shock loading you apply on everything from
the crankshaft through to your diff and everything else inbetween.

Kevin Wood · « **Reply #4 on:** 10 August 2007, 16:29:59 »

Mmmm. The auto boxes are rather prone to failure without stunts like chucking it into "d" with a lot of revs on IMHO.

You might get a better launch if you give it a little throttle and hold it on the brakes between staging and the off but other than that, sport mode and making sure the transmission is in good order and the fluid is clean there's not much that can easily be done.

The real problem is that the gearing is quite tall on these cars and the auto box only has 4 ratios - and you'll only use 1 1/2 of them getting to 60.

9.5 does sound a little on the slow side though. I'm sure 2.5 / 2.6 owners on here have reported getting down into the 8's. I may be thinking of manual cars, however.

A little practice on a quiet ~~road~~ private test track with an AP22 never did any harm!

Kevin

richardirv · « **Reply #5 on:** 10 August 2007, 16:31:47 »

Yeah I'm not mechanically minded but I was pretty sure that would be a very bad idea!!

Marks DTM Calib · « **Reply #6 on:** 10 August 2007, 16:32:28 »

Get it in D with sports mode on, apply foot brake and floor the throttle as the lights come up. The revs will limit at the stall point of the converter.....when they lights go, take your foot off the brake.

Also, dont sit with the engine running in the que, as you want the engine up to operating temp but, you dont want heat soak, if you have to keep it running, try opening the bonnet!

Kevin Wood · « **Reply #7 on:** 10 August 2007, 17:00:25 »

Other than the gearing, the problem you've got with an auto box is that controlling the torque to the transmission is out of your hands.

With a manual car you can rev the engine to about where it's generating peak torque during staging, and feed in the clutch as you pull away to transfer this torque to the wheels during the initial acceleration whist maintaining engine speed, until you're at the point where the speed of the car matches the speed of the engine whereby the clutch is fully engaged and you're off. This'll cause a little clutch wear but you'll get a quick start.

With an automatic, no torque is fed to the transmission at the instant you floor it. First you've got the reaction time for the engine to accelerate on full throttle, as it was previously idling. As the engine revs pick up, the torque converter starts to pass engine torque through to the transmission until it reaches its' stall speed, which will be lower than the speed at which the engine torque peaks - probably about 2200 RPM. As the car starts to pull away you are stuck in this situation where the engine is bogged down a little until the car speed has risen sufficiently to get the engine up into its' power band. The torque converter isn't as lossy as a clutch during this period but, because the engine is running slower than ideal, it's not generating as much power so the car is accelerating more slowly. Once the car is moving and the revs get into the engine's power band the automatic car is probably only limited by the fact that the gear ratios are taller and further apart than a manual car's equivalents. It's the initial start that's slow.

Drag racers on auto boxes normally change the torque converter for something that'll stall at a more optimal speed higher up the engine's rev range, and stage the car with the engine running well above idle and the brakes on, so the engine doesn't take as long to accelerate. The downside of this is that the torque converter will feel horribly slippy on the road and give poor fuel consumption. It's a compromise.

Revving it up and banging it into "D" might feel more like the manual option, above, in that the engine is already running at speed so perhaps you have gained by not waiting for the engine speed to rise. However, with a manual car you've got a nice big clutch to smoothly engage the drive and dissipate the energy that's lost in the process. In an automatic box you've got small, delicate clutches that are normally only actuated when the engine torque has been limited by the ECU. They're not designed to smoothly feed in a lot of power / torque so they will either do so with a bang or they will dissipate a lot of energy and burn out. If they engage with a bang the shock will get transferred elsewhere in the drivetrain. You had better hope that this is dissipated in the tyres as traction is broken because the other options are expensive. Lighting up the tyres isn't going to get you a good time. Neither is leaving bits of propshaft, gearbbox and diff all over the track.

OK. It's friday afternoon, I'm bored and I've probably just over-analysed the problem of drag racing with an autobox. Soon be home time

Kevin

Paul M · « **Reply #8 on:** 10 August 2007, 17:33:46 »

A very informative reply Kevin.... however I'll go with this one:

Quote

plenty of time to put a manual box in it

Oh and switch off the traction control, it's bloody useless for anything other than reducing tyre wear.

Dazzler · « **Reply #9 on:** 10 August 2007, 19:26:50 »

Change the diff for a lower ratio, will improve acceleration but reduce top end.

Martin_1962 · « **Reply #10 on:** 10 August 2007, 19:27:41 »

7.8 I think it was I got

TheBoy · « **Reply #11 on:** 10 August 2007, 21:14:20 »

Use a high octane fuel between now and then...

Martin_1962 · « **Reply #12 on:** 10 August 2007, 22:54:43 »

BP or Shell high octane stuff

RonaldMcBurger · « **Reply #13 on:** 11 August 2007, 01:12:24 »

Santa pod huh? Yep. You will need one spanner and a blindfold. Put the blindfold on the jet car driver and with the spanner, borrow his Rolls Royce RB199 turbofan engine. That should improve things just a tad!

richardirv · « **Reply #14 on:** 11 August 2007, 07:29:25 »

Thanks for all the great advice chaps, keep it coming!!

Auto Addict · « **Reply #15 on:** 11 August 2007, 08:26:05 »

You could always fit a rubber crankshaft, which increases the compression ratio as the revs. build up.

www.acmerubbercrankshaftsforincreasingtheaccelerationofvauxhallomegas.com

Kevin Wood · « **Reply #16 on:** 11 August 2007, 20:08:59 »

A mate of mine has a Westfield that used to do a quarter mile in the 9's. That's got an automatic box in it... So it can be done.

It did have a 5 litre Rover V8 with nitrous at the time IIRC, and about a ton less weight than an Omega.

Never found out how much power it had. It didn't like rolling roads much. Kept making a bid for freedom whenever he tried a run.

Kevin

richardirv · « **Reply #17 on:** 12 August 2007, 13:20:38 »

lol, very good, somehow i dont think my omega is gonna do quarter mile in 9 seconds, does anyone know what a respectable time would be?

Kevin Wood · « **Reply #18 on:** 12 August 2007, 13:33:48 »

Only time I could find with a quick search on the web was 16.7 seconds @ 102 MPH for an Elite.

I'd say that's probably about right.

Edited to say: Not sure if that's with an auto. box though!

Kevin

Crazydad · « **Reply #19 on:** 12 August 2007, 15:08:21 »

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You could always fit a rubber crankshaft, which increases the compression ratio as the revs. build up.

www.acmerubbercrankshaftsforincreasingtheaccelerationofvauxhallomegas.com

Damn computer can`t get the link to work

richardirv · « **Reply #20 on:** 12 August 2007, 15:18:10 »

That sounds slow!! Think it need supercharging before I go to santa pod! LOL

2001CatOwner · « **Reply #21 on:** 13 August 2007, 21:44:31 »

Quote

You could always fit a rubber crankshaft, which increases the compression ratio as the revs. build up.

www.acmerubbercrankshaftsforincreasingtheaccelerationofvauxhallomegas.com

HAHAHAH!!

What i have done to improve it was you need to lighten it up. It is a very heavy car.

Paul M · « **Reply #22 on:** 14 August 2007, 14:58:26 »

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That sounds slow!! Think it need supercharging before I go to santa pod! LOL

Even the manual 3.0 is not a quick car by any means. It's OK on the road, although a little sluggish off the line due to weight and high gearing, but certainly no performance car. Great motorway muncher though, as the weight is less of an issue and aerodynamics are pretty good.

If only GM hadn't dropped the 4.7 V8 6-speed Omega that was prototyped -- sorry for bringing it up again

richardirv · « **Reply #23 on:** 14 August 2007, 16:56:47 »

Cheers everyone, I think i will be going for the Foot brake technique, sports mode and prolly some high octane fuel, and hope for the best! will let you know what she does!!

Am I likeley to damage anything holding the footbrake while flooring it? if so I might just let it do its own thing! dont wanna come all the way back from Santa Pod on the back of a low loader! hehe

Cheers

hotel21 · « **Reply #24 on:** 14 August 2007, 18:37:03 »

Would also keep the traction control fluid tank * at minimum level.

HtH

B

* = fuel tank, that is

TheBoy · « **Reply #25 on:** 14 August 2007, 18:43:12 »

Quote

Cheers everyone, I think i will be going for the Foot brake technique, sports mode and prolly some high octane fuel, and hope for the best! will let you know what she does!!

Am I likeley to damage anything holding the footbrake while flooring it? if so I might just let it do its own thing! dont wanna come all the way back from Santa Pod on the back of a low loader! hehe

Cheers

Not going to do torque converter any favours.

Better software on autobox i think is worth a couple of tenths...

hobbes · « **Reply #26 on:** 14 August 2007, 19:08:16 »

From experience - you should get around an 8.9 in a 2.5 / 2.6 auto, 8.7 in a 2.5 manual & 7.7 in a 3.0 manual.

The BIGGEST improvement can be made by NOT having a full tank (run just above the red), empty the boot entirely including the spare wheel and don't have a passenger. Also tyre pressure at the high end of normal. The tip of brake on in 'D' + Sports mode does work - but just have it throttled up a tiny bit. PLEASE don't be tempted to drop it into drive - in clunk is terrifying & the potential cost implications / embarrassment would literally be priceless.

Higher octane fuel won't make much of a difference to be perfectly honest - but it's a relatively low cost 'try it out'. Also ensure your air & fuel filters are in good order.

All that MIGHT shave 0.1 to 0.2 seconds off a normal time!

Anyway - all the best!

iggy21uk · « **Reply #27 on:** 14 August 2007, 19:18:54 »

Stick a Omega badge on VX220 -- I know debadged VX220 that up for sale !!

Martin_1962 · « **Reply #28 on:** 14 August 2007, 19:28:24 »

Quote

From experience - you should get around an 8.9 in a 2.5 / 2.6 auto, 8.7 in a 2.5 manual & 7.7 in a 3.0 manual.

The BIGGEST improvement can be made by NOT having a full tank (run just above the red), empty the boot entirely including the spare wheel and don't have a passenger. Also tyre pressure at the high end of normal. The tip of brake on in 'D' + Sports mode does work - but just have it throttled up a tiny bit. PLEASE don't be tempted to drop it into drive - in clunk is terrifying & the potential cost implications / embarrassment would literally be priceless.

Higher octane fuel won't make much of a difference to be perfectly honest - but it's a relatively low cost 'try it out'. Also ensure your air & fuel filters are in good order.

All that MIGHT shave 0.1 to 0.2 seconds off a normal time!

Anyway - all the best!

7.8 from a 2.6 auto

TheBoy · « **Reply #29 on:** 14 August 2007, 19:50:04 »

7.7 from 3.0l Auto without trying too hard. I would say a good .5s better for manual, more if you 'try'

Paul M · « **Reply #30 on:** 14 August 2007, 21:45:59 »

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7.7 from 3.0l Auto without trying too hard. I would say a good .5s better for manual, more if you 'try'

Easy. I've had 7.0 from mine, and that wasn't really ragging the tits right off it (like 5,000 RPM on the clutch lol). Manufacturer's figures are usually conservative IME. It's imperative to switch off traction control, otherwise you'll be struggling to match, let alone beat, standard figures.

TheBoy · « **Reply #31 on:** 14 August 2007, 21:48:47 »

Quote

Quote
7.7 from 3.0l Auto without trying too hard. I would say a good .5s better for manual, more if you 'try'

Easy. I've had 7.0 from mine, and that wasn't really ragging the tits right off it (like 5,000 RPM on the clutch lol). Manufacturer's figures are usually conservative IME. It's imperative to switch off traction control, otherwise you'll be struggling to match, let alone beat, standard figures.

I disagree - if you are pounding the TC so hard that it is backing off engine, you haven't controlled the slip properly. Fastest get away (with road cars) is just on the verge of wheelspin

Paul M · « **Reply #32 on:** 14 August 2007, 22:30:00 »

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I disagree - if you are pounding the TC so hard that it is backing off engine, you haven't controlled the slip properly. Fastest get away (with road cars) is just on the verge of wheelspin

This much I know very well, about 10% slip I believe is considered optimal. I have practiced lots on many cars, and the Omega traction control is absolutely woeful for quick getaways. As soon as it detects slip it kills the power. A little slip on initial engagement of the power is necessary to prevent the engine bogging down.

I control the slip using my right foot, and it seems I can do a far better job of it than VX's crappy electronics

Incidentally the stability control in my BMW is much less intrusive, I don't usually bother switching it off when I want a quick launch. It also has a hidden mode where it will only brake individual wheels, not cut engine power.

I'd like to hear from anyone who can match 7.0 secs to 60 with TC switched on -- I'll be highly impressed. Put simply, as with most electronic gizmos it's a safety mod for incompetent drivers, not a performance feature.

raximax · « **Reply #33 on:** 14 August 2007, 22:43:38 »

i agree the tc on the meega is cr*p it totaly kills the power. if you driving in the wet with it on an comming off a circle or at the lights any thing could pass you

on the pluss side its should not kill you in a spin

TheBoy · « **Reply #34 on:** 14 August 2007, 22:52:30 »

Quote

Quote
I disagree - if you are pounding the TC so hard that it is backing off engine, you haven't controlled the slip properly. Fastest get away (with road cars) is just on the verge of wheelspin

This much I know very well, about 10% slip I believe is considered optimal. I have practiced lots on many cars, and the Omega traction control is absolutely woeful for quick getaways. As soon as it detects slip it kills the power. A little slip on initial engagement of the power is necessary to prevent the engine bogging down.

I control the slip using my right foot, and it seems I can do a far better job of it than VX's crappy electronics

Incidentally the stability control in my BMW is much less intrusive, I don't usually bother switching it off when I want a quick launch. It also has a hidden mode where it will only brake individual wheels, not cut engine power.

I'd like to hear from anyone who can match 7.0 secs to 60 with TC switched on -- I'll be highly impressed. Put simply, as with most electronic gizmos it's a safety mod for incompetent drivers, not a performance feature.

Anyone got a manual 3.0l I can try with

10% slip is too much imho... ...and as I've said, the car will allow an element of slip before cutting power. The tiniest 'tyre saver' type wheelspin is OK, but if you're giving it so much that the engine starts cutting (remember it tries to apply brakes first), you've got the power/clutch wrong. Road tyres do not respond well to wheelspin, so keeping that to a minimum is essential.

If you've given it too much that engine cut starts to happen, as with most early Bosch (and others) TC, you need to lift right off and try again, as as soon as spin stops, it will lift restriction on engine power, and if an inexperienced driver has floored it to overcome the power loss, it will try the 207bhp again, causing slip, causing power loss etc...

BMW TC is bloody useless. Look in the snow, all the beemers have to switch it off. Had to turn it off in beemers myself in slippery conditions, never had to turn off in my Omegas (only gets turned off when I what to act a idiot

)

Kevin Wood · « **Reply #35 on:** 14 August 2007, 23:06:39 »

I have to say that, whilst the Omega traction control is not nice when it cuts in with a bootload of throttle on tarmac (it backs off harshly enough to cause a little lift-off oversteer at times, so it's counterproductive, IMO) it's very good at negotiating slippy surfaces at low speed. It put a mate's 4x4 to shame recently when climbing a grassy bank. I think on tarmac it all happens too quickly to get the benefit of braking the slipping wheel and it just shuts down the power. At a slower speed with less traction you can feel one wheel start to slip, hear the ABS pump start up, and the traction comes back after a second or so.

Kevin

Martin_1962 · « **Reply #36 on:** 15 August 2007, 12:31:11 »

My technique

1) Use a high octane super petrol
2) Warm it up, practice a bit, get the engine up to 90 deg
3) Use sports mode
4) Take it to stall speed then floor throttle at the same time as you come off the brake.

Paul M · « **Reply #37 on:** 16 August 2007, 14:52:20 »

Quote

Anyone got a manual 3.0l I can try with

10% slip is too much imho... ...and as I've said, the car will allow an element of slip before cutting power. The tiniest 'tyre saver' type wheelspin is OK, but if you're giving it so much that the engine starts cutting (remember it tries to apply brakes first), you've got the power/clutch wrong. Road tyres do not respond well to wheelspin, so keeping that to a minimum is essential.

If you've given it too much that engine cut starts to happen, as with most early Bosch (and others) TC, you need to lift right off and try again, as as soon as spin stops, it will lift restriction on engine power, and if an inexperienced driver has floored it to overcome the power loss, it will try the 207bhp again, causing slip, causing power loss etc...

BMW TC is bloody useless. Look in the snow, all the beemers have to switch it off. Had to turn it off in beemers myself in slippery conditions, never had to turn off in my Omegas (only gets turned off when I what to act a idiot )

Not in my experience, I've tried it many times with TC on, and the only way I can avoid it cutting power is to pussyfoot the launch which ends up being slower. I don't know how it affects the auto cars, I suspect less so due to the torque converter allowing the engine speed to be partly independent of the wheel speed, but on a manual I can more or less guarantee it will slow you down. Even if you launch perfectly just preventing the TC from coming on, the shift from 1st to 2nd at full pelt usually gives a small chirp from the tyres as the power is abruptly reapplied. No problem normally, the tyres don't actually start spinning, but the bloody TCS often decides to cut the power FFS!

Quite simply, it's a reactive system and a crap one at that -- when it does cut power, it does so abruptly rather than a slight backing off. That's what makes it so ineffective as a form of launch control (something it was never designed for). Interestingly enough it can't cut power when my car is running on propane (so presumably it works by fuel cut), meaning I can still make use of the torque-biasing feature without getting the power-killing. I can get faster acceleration on propane than on petrol if the TCS is switched on, even with the 10% power reduction!

I know several Omega owners who are quicker, more experienced, drivers than I am, two of which are driving manual 3.0s. Both of them switch the TC off every time, because they know they can accelerate quicker without it -- not to mention control the car better at the limit. It's a very basic safety feature with no intention of improving the car's performance; it's solely there to prevent inexperienced RWD drivers from throwing it into a hedge because of power oversteer.

Oh and the stability control system in my particular BMW is a far better system, it basically keeps the car straight with minimal intrusion -- it will actually let you get it a little sideways first, likewise it will allow a little wheelspin too. I don't know about snow performance as I don't live in the Alps

but for high-performance street driving in good conditions (which is the subject here after all) it's far superior. The Omega's TCS may well be better in snow or slippery surfaces, that much I don't dispute, but it's crap at launching in good conditions.

TheBoy · « **Reply #38 on:** 16 August 2007, 15:47:33 »

PaulM - presumably yours is retail MV6, hence later than 1998?

I agree entirely, when it cuts the power, it does so in a barbaric way, and reapplies full power (if foot still hard down). But it shouldn't cut in until a reasonable amount of wheelspin cuts in.

I've driven a fair few Omega manuals, and never found it intrusive, though I wouldn't do a race start without owners permission (unless it was Tunnie's

). Certainly had a bit of wheelspin from them.

Using my auto as an example, simply by virtue its my car, and driven as such, I can get far more wheelspin than is healthy for a quick getaway before power cuts. Obviously, do not get a wheelspin 1st to 2nd in that though.

I think I can imagine what you mean - there is a petrol station near my work that has concrete forecourt. Its on a fast dual carriageway, so you are trying to boot it on slippery (diesel covered) concrete. If I floor it there, the car goes nowhere fast - annoying. I have tried it in other cars, and with mine with TC off, it is increbibly difficult to get a quick getaway there, just not enough traction, strangely FWD does seem better (probably the driven wheels getting on the clean road a couple of meters before RWD can). But I know how much booting I can give it out of their, so tend to keep TC on.

The TC is a useful safety aid, esp for RWD that can catch out inexperienced drivers, and (imho) has little effect on fast driving. Overstep what the chassis can handle, and it will punish your progress harshly.

The Bosch ABS/TC system used is quite old, and is not as good as most more modern systems though.

Having driven many BMWs (come from a family of beemer owners - one of my brothers used to be able to get good discount due to a joint venture), even their more modern ones are hopeless in slippery conditions (the time you want such systems). I would hope anyone driving quickly would have the skills to not need the safety systems on a car, so I think less relevent under those conditions. I think anyone racing around and actually using the car's stability control is being very careless (forgetting about the irresponsibility of racing around anyway

).

And yes, the TC on 1998 onwards Omega (if applying brake to spinning wheel doesn't stop the slip) will ask engine to reduce power, which the ecu does by cutting injectors to 2 (i think) cylinders...

Paul M · « **Reply #39 on:** 16 August 2007, 19:03:31 »

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PaulM - presumably yours is retail MV6, hence later than 1998?

I agree entirely, when it cuts the power, it does so in a barbaric way, and reapplies full power (if foot still hard down). But it shouldn't cut in until a reasonable amount of wheelspin cuts in.

I've driven a fair few Omega manuals, and never found it intrusive, though I wouldn't do a race start without owners permission (unless it was Tunnie's ). Certainly had a bit of wheelspin from them.

Using my auto as an example, simply by virtue its my car, and driven as such, I can get far more wheelspin than is healthy for a quick getaway before power cuts. Obviously, do not get a wheelspin 1st to 2nd in that though.

I think I can imagine what you mean - there is a petrol station near my work that has concrete forecourt. Its on a fast dual carriageway, so you are trying to boot it on slippery (diesel covered) concrete. If I floor it there, the car goes nowhere fast - annoying. I have tried it in other cars, and with mine with TC off, it is increbibly difficult to get a quick getaway there, just not enough traction, strangely FWD does seem better (probably the driven wheels getting on the clean road a couple of meters before RWD can). But I know how much booting I can give it out of their, so tend to keep TC on.

The TC is a useful safety aid, esp for RWD that can catch out inexperienced drivers, and (imho) has little effect on fast driving. Overstep what the chassis can handle, and it will punish your progress harshly.

The Bosch ABS/TC system used is quite old, and is not as good as most more modern systems though.

Having driven many BMWs (come from a family of beemer owners - one of my brothers used to be able to get good discount due to a joint venture), even their more modern ones are hopeless in slippery conditions (the time you want such systems). I would hope anyone driving quickly would have the skills to not need the safety systems on a car, so I think less relevent under those conditions. I think anyone racing around and actually using the car's stability control is being very careless (forgetting about the irresponsibility of racing around anyway ).

And yes, the TC on 1998 onwards Omega (if applying brake to spinning wheel doesn't stop the slip) will ask engine to reduce power, which the ecu does by cutting injectors to 2 (i think) cylinders...

Yes, mini-facelift retail MV6. Bog standard 17" wheels & 235/45 tyre size too.

I can only assume that yours has a different revision of TCS software to mine, as mine definitely seems over-keen to cut the power. If the wheel starts to slip for whatever reason, I can feel it and start to back off the throttle, but by then the electronics have already decided to cut the power -- even though I've lifted off by say 30%, it feels like the throttle has been snapped shut then opened again. Not what you need for good acceleration, it totally bogs down the engine! Others with similar manual 3.0 Omegas agree with my assessment, although I think both their cars are older (I know one definitely is).

I generally don't use my BMW in slippery conditions, the tyres are far too wide (265/35x18 on 9.5" wide wheels at the rear) so even with the best gizmos in the world it's never going to perform well. But in normal driving I leave the DSC switched on, it's unobtrusive enough that I generally forget about it. I've never relied on it to bail me out, usually when I slide it I'm doing so deliberately. But once it did bail me out when there was some crap spilled on the road (probably diesel) on the exit of a quick roundabout -- back end stepped out totally unexpectedly, and by the time I'd steered into it the car had already started straightening itself up. It wasn't hugely out of shape so I'd have almost certainly caught it anyway but it reacted faster than I did. The beauty of DSC is that if the car starts to slide for whatever reason (even when power isn't applied) it can usually correct it. I certainly don't rely on it but I'm happy that it's there just in case. Traction control, on the other hand, I couldn't care less for, I find it's more likely to get me into trouble than bail me out of it.

Strangely enough I find the ABS on the Omega works fine, it doesn't come in too early unlike some other cars I've owned (which I'm convinced were actually lengthening my stopping distance due to the over-zealous ABS). I'd say it's pretty much on a par with the BMW setup, even though the braking system itself is a lot weaker.

On a similar note... when you've ridden an R1 on semi-slick tyres in pissing rain (got caught in it 150 miles from home a few weeks ago) you soon learn how precious traction is!

Taxi_Driver · « **Reply #40 on:** 16 August 2007, 19:11:01 »

Quote

Quote
Cheers everyone, I think i will be going for the Foot brake technique, sports mode and prolly some high octane fuel, and hope for the best! will let you know what she does!!

Am I likeley to damage anything holding the footbrake while flooring it? if so I might just let it do its own thing! dont wanna come all the way back from Santa Pod on the back of a low loader! hehe

Cheers

Not going to do torque converter any favours.

Better software on autobox i think is worth a couple of tenths...

Agree.....but should be ok if not done for more than 15-20 secs.......more than this than you run the risk of it overheating and doing damage.

TheBoy · « **Reply #41 on:** 16 August 2007, 19:14:44 »

Quote

On a similar note... when you've ridden an R1 on semi-slick tyres in pissing rain (got caught in it 150 miles from home a few weeks ago) you soon learn how precious traction is!

Been there on the ZX10 (being older gives all its power roughly all in one hit, unlike the R1, which is softened by the injection system, making it smoother and a better ride), though only time I've come off it was in dry, fine condition

ZX10, monster in the dry, utterly lethal in the wet. And bloody heavy to pick up

TheBoy · « **Reply #42 on:** 16 August 2007, 19:15:37 »

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Quote
Quote
Cheers everyone, I think i will be going for the Foot brake technique, sports mode and prolly some high octane fuel, and hope for the best! will let you know what she does!!

Am I likeley to damage anything holding the footbrake while flooring it? if so I might just let it do its own thing! dont wanna come all the way back from Santa Pod on the back of a low loader! hehe

Cheers

Not going to do torque converter any favours.

Better software on autobox i think is worth a couple of tenths...

Agree.....but should be ok if not done for more than 15-20 secs.......more than this than you run the risk of it overheating and doing damage.

I think you would be shocked at how how the TC gets, even during normal driving...

Kevin Wood · « **Reply #43 on:** 16 August 2007, 20:02:26 »

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I think you would be shocked at how how the TC gets, even during normal driving...

Absolutely. If it's stalled with the brakes on it's soaking up 100% of the engine output, which probably isn't huge at 2K rpm or so, but it's going to be many tens of kilowatts on a V6. Do it for the second or two between staging and the off but for any longer I'd be worried, and only use enough throttle to reach stalling speed, not a whole bootful. Make sure the ATF is kept clean and fresh too!

Let it idle for a minute or two after the run to keep the fluid circulating through the cooler too, rather than just shutting down.

Kevin

Paul M · « **Reply #44 on:** 16 August 2007, 22:04:54 »

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On a similar note... when you've ridden an R1 on semi-slick tyres in pissing rain (got caught in it 150 miles from home a few weeks ago) you soon learn how precious traction is!
Been there on the ZX10 (being older gives all its power roughly all in one hit, unlike the R1, which is softened by the injection system, making it smoother and a better ride), though only time I've come off it was in dry, fine condition

ZX10, monster in the dry, utterly lethal in the wet. And bloody heavy to pick up

I wouldn't like to imagine! Worst part was coming over Glenshee, it's a steep, twisty climb up a small mountain (you pass a ski resort at the top) then similar on the way down. Great fun in the dry, but trying to do hairpin bends uphill in that rain was a challenge! As soon as I applied any power the back wheel wanted to step out

. It's taught me one thing -- as much as I'm a dry weather biker, I'm buying a more suitable tyre for the rain in preperation for the next time I get caught out

I've yet to drop a bike, surprisingly enough. Closest I came was stationary on my parents' driveway, it was when I just bought my SV650 winter bike. The guy who sold it to me was only about 10 miles from my folks' so I asked him to ride it up and I'd drive him home in the car. Job done, got back and went to take the bike out, that was when I discovered he'd parked it facing down a slight hill. Never really thought anything of it, but as soon as I touched it, the bike rolled forward and off the side stand

. Thankfully I was standing to the left of it so I quickly grabbed the brake just as my leg got jammed under it! It was down about 45 degrees, surprisingly difficult to lift as I couldn't move without letting go of the brake. Glad it only weighs about 170 Kg!

Paul M · « **Reply #45 on:** 16 August 2007, 22:05:41 »

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I think you would be shocked at how how the TC gets, even during normal driving...

That's where half your horsepower is going

TheBoy · « **Reply #46 on:** 16 August 2007, 22:26:24 »

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On a similar note... when you've ridden an R1 on semi-slick tyres in pissing rain (got caught in it 150 miles from home a few weeks ago) you soon learn how precious traction is!
Been there on the ZX10 (being older gives all its power roughly all in one hit, unlike the R1, which is softened by the injection system, making it smoother and a better ride), though only time I've come off it was in dry, fine condition

ZX10, monster in the dry, utterly lethal in the wet. And bloody heavy to pick up

I wouldn't like to imagine! Worst part was coming over Glenshee, it's a steep, twisty climb up a small mountain (you pass a ski resort at the top) then similar on the way down. Great fun in the dry, but trying to do hairpin bends uphill in that rain was a challenge! As soon as I applied any power the back wheel wanted to step out . It's taught me one thing -- as much as I'm a dry weather biker, I'm buying a more suitable tyre for the rain in preperation for the next time I get caught out

I've yet to drop a bike, surprisingly enough. Closest I came was stationary on my parents' driveway, it was when I just bought my SV650 winter bike. The guy who sold it to me was only about 10 miles from my folks' so I asked him to ride it up and I'd drive him home in the car. Job done, got back and went to take the bike out, that was when I discovered he'd parked it facing down a slight hill. Never really thought anything of it, but as soon as I touched it, the bike rolled forward and off the side stand . Thankfully I was standing to the left of it so I quickly grabbed the brake just as my leg got jammed under it! It was down about 45 degrees, surprisingly difficult to lift as I couldn't move without letting go of the brake. Glad it only weighs about 170 Kg!

I've dropped all my bikes

, usually on drive kicking off centre stand after doing something to it. You quickly lift it, check none saw, and polished out the scratches

ZX10 is the first (and hopefully last, as it bloody hurt) I've done on the road.

If you do drop one, I find easier way to lift is to stand the other side to what its fallen, both hands on the highest handlebar, and pull up towards you....

Markjay · « **Reply #47 on:** 16 August 2007, 23:47:31 »

From all the suggestions made so far, what seems to me will have the most effect to losing as much weight as possible. I am not familiar with the requirements at Santa Pod, but usually there are either minimum weight requirements or simply rules with regards to what you can and what you can't take off the car. I helped prepare a mate's rally car (Golf GTI MkI) many years ago, it was stripped to the bone , had fibreglass bonnet, and perspex windows instead of glass... though I appreciate that when it comes to rally there are other reasons to loosing weight i.e. handling etc.

Markjay · « **Reply #48 on:** 16 August 2007, 23:48:26 »

As for the sports mode... I can't see how it will make a difference, it certainly doesn't on my car. On kick-down the box shits-up at the rev limiter anyway, at which point the selected driving program i.e. Economy or Sports has no effect... the driving program determines when gears are changed only when driving normally but not at full throttle, at full throttle it will always change at the rev limited anyway ignoring the driving program selected.

Kevin Wood · « **Reply #49 on:** 17 August 2007, 09:14:28 »

I'm not sure I agree about the sport mode. Pretty sure mine changes up a little earlier when not in sport mode. When in sport mode it redlines in every gear. It also seems to change quicker and harsher, in that it probably doesn't back off the engine torque for as long to get a smooth change.

Will maybe find myself a ~~quiet road~~ private test track and try a few runs with the data logger.

Weight is the Omega's biggest handicap, though, so anything you can remove will help, and if you're really after quick times, start with a lighter car.

One the one time I went to Santa Pod it seemed pretty much anything goes. Take a metal frame, strap on 4 wheels, a seat and a V8 and go racing!

Kevin

Jimbob · « **Reply #50 on:** 17 August 2007, 09:27:03 »

Think the 2.2 gets an extra few hundred revs per change with sport mode on.

Don't feel the need in the MV6 for some reason

Markjay · « **Reply #51 on:** 17 August 2007, 10:43:32 »

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Think the 2.2 gets an extra few hundred revs per change with sport mode on.

Don't feel the need in the MV6 for some reason

Check the rev it changes gear in when you are at full throttle, it will go up to the rev limiter even in Economy mode.

TheBoy · « **Reply #52 on:** 17 August 2007, 20:42:46 »

In the petrol ones, running recent software, foot hard down will cause it to change up at redline.

Sports makes it more aggressive in kickdown - in normal, if you attempt kickdown near the changepoint, it won't drop. Sports also changes down earlier.

cem_devecioglu · « **Reply #53 on:** 17 August 2007, 22:22:25 »

sports mode changes nearly 6500 rpm if I see correct ( I'm four eyes and cant see far

but manual 1-2-3-D sequence I can reach 7000 rpm easily ..

PS: never measured the timing in secs but I dont believe this silly 9.5 seconds for 2.5 V6
as I start with BMWs at the light and they do not overtake me (rating 8.5)

TheBoy · « **Reply #54 on:** 17 August 2007, 22:29:46 »

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sports mode changes nearly 6500 rpm if I see correct ( I'm four eyes and cant see far

but manual 1-2-3-D sequence I can reach 7000 rpm easily ..

PS: never measured the timing in secs but I dont believe this silly 9.5 seconds for 2.5 V6
as I start with BMWs at the light and they do not overtake me (rating 8.5)

mine has a rev limiter at 6750 rpm. Apparently

just under 8s is what we see from 2.5 autos in UK, not sure if your spec has same gearing...

cem_devecioglu · « **Reply #55 on:** 17 August 2007, 22:37:19 »

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sports mode changes nearly 6500 rpm if I see correct ( I'm four eyes and cant see far

but manual 1-2-3-D sequence I can reach 7000 rpm easily ..

PS: never measured the timing in secs but I dont believe this silly 9.5 seconds for 2.5 V6
as I start with BMWs at the light and they do not overtake me (rating 8.5)
mine has a rev limiter at 6750 rpm. Apparently

just under 8s is what we see from 2.5 autos in UK, not sure if your spec has same gearing...

As I say I cant see very good

I assume the end of rev as 7000. In too many stupid net pages they tell 9.5 and sometimes 10.2 what make me mad

You make me really realy happy thanks

The autobox is the same as yours in UK ..Now jumping...

TheBoy · « **Reply #56 on:** 17 August 2007, 22:44:50 »

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sports mode changes nearly 6500 rpm if I see correct ( I'm four eyes and cant see far

but manual 1-2-3-D sequence I can reach 7000 rpm easily ..

PS: never measured the timing in secs but I dont believe this silly 9.5 seconds for 2.5 V6
as I start with BMWs at the light and they do not overtake me (rating 8.5)
mine has a rev limiter at 6750 rpm. Apparently

just under 8s is what we see from 2.5 autos in UK, not sure if your spec has same gearing...

As I say I cant see very good

I assume the end of rev as 7000. In too many stupid net pages they tell 9.5 and sometimes 10.2 what make me mad

You make me really realy happy thanks

The autobox is the same as yours in UK ..Now jumping...

in uk, we have different diffs on 2.5 to gear down to improve acceleration, as said, not sure if yours does?

cem_devecioglu · « **Reply #57 on:** 17 August 2007, 22:49:49 »

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Quote
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Quote
sports mode changes nearly 6500 rpm if I see correct ( I'm four eyes and cant see far

but manual 1-2-3-D sequence I can reach 7000 rpm easily ..

PS: never measured the timing in secs but I dont believe this silly 9.5 seconds for 2.5 V6
as I start with BMWs at the light and they do not overtake me (rating 8.5)
mine has a rev limiter at 6750 rpm. Apparently

just under 8s is what we see from 2.5 autos in UK, not sure if your spec has same gearing...

As I say I cant see very good

I assume the end of rev as 7000. In too many stupid net pages they tell 9.5 and sometimes 10.2 what make me mad

You make me really realy happy thanks

The autobox is the same as yours in UK ..Now jumping...
in uk, we have different diffs on 2.5 to gear down to improve acceleration, as said, not sure if yours does?

GM origin french made AR25 .. I think this as standart for 2.5 autos

cem_devecioglu · « **Reply #58 on:** 17 August 2007, 22:51:02 »

or 4L30 E

Martin_1962 · « **Reply #59 on:** 18 August 2007, 09:58:47 »

Manually changing seems no quicker but the engine will rev to around 7000rpm

cem_devecioglu · « **Reply #60 on:** 18 August 2007, 14:17:33 »

I think megas can have very good timings with starting phase modifications on the engine (exh.manifolds, cams,compression ratio cone filter, re-chip etc) but for cooling the engine necessary very expensive and detailed job.And also after fuel costs will jump to jumbo levels which will not be practical for daily usage..

PS: and not very sure GM made autobox will stay long with that much power..

TheBoy · « **Reply #61 on:** 19 August 2007, 00:05:51 »

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Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
sports mode changes nearly 6500 rpm if I see correct ( I'm four eyes and cant see far

but manual 1-2-3-D sequence I can reach 7000 rpm easily ..

PS: never measured the timing in secs but I dont believe this silly 9.5 seconds for 2.5 V6
as I start with BMWs at the light and they do not overtake me (rating 8.5)
mine has a rev limiter at 6750 rpm. Apparently

just under 8s is what we see from 2.5 autos in UK, not sure if your spec has same gearing...

As I say I cant see very good

I assume the end of rev as 7000. In too many stupid net pages they tell 9.5 and sometimes 10.2 what make me mad

You make me really realy happy thanks

The autobox is the same as yours in UK ..Now jumping...
in uk, we have different diffs on 2.5 to gear down to improve acceleration, as said, not sure if yours does?

GM origin french made AR25 .. I think this as standart for 2.5 autos

Yes, gearbox will be identical, but there are 3 different ratio diff units, so if you have a higher ratio diff, it will hurt your acceleration.

cem_devecioglu · « **Reply #62 on:** 19 August 2007, 11:25:23 »

Is it possible to change this unit ( or gear ratios) without changing the autobox totally ?

Because manual conversion here nearly costs a meggy price which is 6 to 8 times expensive than UK

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