Topic: V6 Disaster (Read 5171 times)

star_whites · « **on:** 28 April 2009, 08:04:45 »

Well I finnally got her rebuild after finding the head gasket leaking.

Turned her over and she sounded fine, but still dragging fuel through. Turned her over again she fired and then died, again guessing dragging fuel through.

Turned her over once more there was a bang and a noise sounding like the a belt being dragged over a cog. Will now have to strip her down again.

dbug · « **Reply #1 on:** 28 April 2009, 08:30:39 »

:-? :-?

MutantCav · « **Reply #2 on:** 28 April 2009, 08:32:31 »

Welung666 · « **Reply #3 on:** 28 April 2009, 08:51:58 »

Hope it's nothing too serious matey

feeutfo · « **Reply #4 on:** 28 April 2009, 09:08:19 »

sorry to hear. Find out where you went wrong before the rebuild.

Dragging fuel through...? Can you explane the term? Not hurd that one before.

Omegadoha, Desert Member · « **Reply #5 on:** 28 April 2009, 10:35:05 »

Hope you can fix it.

Deva1992 · « **Reply #6 on:** 28 April 2009, 11:21:14 »

Echo those sentiments, good luck with the re-build

MutantCav · « **Reply #7 on:** 28 April 2009, 12:05:50 »

I have a pair of 3.0 heads and a 3.0 bottom end if you need it...hoping its all ok though

star_whites · « **Reply #8 on:** 28 April 2009, 12:56:49 »

Will be stripping down tonight (rain or shine) as its driving me scanny not knowing what went wrong.

I know all the valves were reseated properly after fitting the new seals and I know all the timing marks were correct thanks to the borrowed cam locking it. Also the tention appeared fine so I dont know. It cant be a seized crank as it was running fine before stripdown and I was able to turn to top dead centre before rebuild.

Like I said earlier the only thing I can think is if the belt has stripped its teeth or jumped its cog. Will let you all know :-/

Dragging the fuel through is when the engine is being started for the first time after the fuel lines have been disconnected. This would be a little worse due to them being undone for over two weeks as fuel evaporates in the lines so has to pump from the tank.

feeutfo · « **Reply #9 on:** 28 April 2009, 16:16:41 »

oh i see, i was under the impression, rightly or wrongly, that if you leave the key in position 2, ignition on, for 5 seconds or so that the injectors would be primed and ready to go?

Just a thought. Def got the correct marks on the cams? I beleive there are 2 or 3...?

wild5179 · « **Reply #10 on:** 28 April 2009, 16:58:55 »

hi did you use the same tensioner if you did it might have done what mine did it let go when turning it over smashed all the valves hope it wasnt that

tomoco · « **Reply #11 on:** 28 April 2009, 17:03:15 »

Good luck in finding out what's wrong and let us know :-?

Bent valve · « **Reply #12 on:** 28 April 2009, 19:33:20 »

Commiserations Buddy, I do hope you havent suffered too much damage.
I am in a similar boat to you at the moment, mine has skipped 4 teeth after a top end overhaul, and I am waiting on the loan of a locking kit to reset it
The suspense is killing me.

star_whites · « **Reply #13 on:** 28 April 2009, 19:37:23 »

Well what lovely British Weather we have. Have removed timing belt cover to enable me to see whats happening underneath and the belt appears to be in position.

Awaiting my Brother arriving to have a look but doesnt sound good. As the belt is still in situe the next thing will be to strip everything back off the engine and check as we go along. The noise just sounds like something trying to turn over but jamming so wondering if a valves has bent but no way of checking without removing everything

Marks DTM Calib · « **Reply #14 on:** 28 April 2009, 19:38:18 »

The belt is still on but is the timing correct?

And is the belt tensioned correctly when set to TDC?

star_whites · « **Reply #15 on:** 28 April 2009, 19:38:36 »

At least yours has only skipped a couple of teeth. Mine sounds much worse. think its a full stripdown again

Marks DTM Calib · « **Reply #16 on:** 28 April 2009, 19:39:05 »

I assume the plug leads on the 2-4-6 bank are connected to the DIS correctly (they do not connect as 2-4-6!)

star_whites · « **Reply #17 on:** 28 April 2009, 19:44:16 »

Yes Mark the plugs leads are correct, I made a drawing prior to stipping them off to ensure they went back correct.

I've not checked to see if the timing is correct yet as awaiting my Brother whos a mechanic. He wants to see it as it is to check it over. Next job will be to turn it into top dead centre and check if everything is in line. Thats if it will allow me to turn it!

Quick question, if there is a bent valve will it allow me to turn it over or will it just lock when trying to turn it?? :-?

Bent valve · « **Reply #18 on:** 28 April 2009, 19:49:46 »

What do you mean IF there is a bent valve? there IS one and I'm not stopping you turning it over

star_whites · « **Reply #19 on:** 28 April 2009, 20:55:14 »

Ok heres a posibility.

The engine does not appear to be turning at all.

The timing belt is in place and the timing looks ok. However due to none of the gears turning we are wondering if its the starter motor that may have given up the ghost and is not engaging hence the juddering noise???

JamesV6CDX · « **Reply #20 on:** 28 April 2009, 20:55:58 »

Quote

Ok heres a posibility.

The engine does not appear to be turning at all.

The timing belt is in place and the timing looks ok. However due to none of the gears turning we are wondering if its the starter motor that may have given up the ghost and is not engaging hence the juddering noise???

If it's all lined up, does it turn by hand?

Bent valve · « **Reply #21 on:** 28 April 2009, 21:05:03 »

Are you saying that the engine wont turn over at all? if so try removing the plugs, you may have water in a cylinder causing it to lock up.

star_whites · « **Reply #22 on:** 28 April 2009, 21:06:54 »

Ummmm not thought of that. I would hope there wouldnt be any water in there as we have just resealed both heads!

M Kerr · « **Reply #23 on:** 28 April 2009, 23:54:07 »

Mine turned over beautiful with bent valves!

star_whites · « **Reply #24 on:** 29 April 2009, 12:56:53 »

Thinking about it, it cannot be water in a piston as the water level has not gone down so can rule that one out.

The suns shining today so when I get home we are going to try and manually turn the engine over to check that. Then its to attemp and change the starter motor.

WIll keep you all informed :-/

Marks DTM Calib · « **Reply #25 on:** 29 April 2009, 13:04:03 »

Is the engine turning over or not?

And check te timing.

Note, only turn the engine clockwise, going anti clockwise can result in the belt jumping teeth.

star_whites · « **Reply #26 on:** 29 April 2009, 17:13:30 »

Will let you know shortly James as I am just about to leave work. So will post in a couple of hours.

Alex Wood · « **Reply #27 on:** 29 April 2009, 18:44:19 »

You say there's a possibility of a failed starter motor: if the engine turns by hand, you might want to try sticking some jump leads on. I once replaced the flywheel on a 24v Senator because of juddering, grinding noises coming from it when I attempted to start it. Actually all that had happened was the battery was discharged and the starter was making a right drama of trying and failing to turn the engine!

What caught me out was that I'd never heard the noise before (when Monza batteries go flat there's no noise at all!) so I assumed it to be something much more serious than it was.

If your car sat around for a while waiting to be put back together, the battery could be a candidate!

EDIT: like yours, my car fired up to begin with but died again, flooding the engine with that nice rich cold start mixture. Subsequent attempts to start it sounded like there was no compression because the petrol had washed the oil out of the bores, then the battery gave up and the grinding noise started.

star_whites · « **Reply #28 on:** 29 April 2009, 19:45:27 »

Ok heres an update. Ive stripped all the breather box out and removed fan belt.

Attempted to turn bottom and it turns, however as it turns the top cams start to move and then jump back and the bottom jumps on the belt without actually moving it.

The belt around the cam appears tought however the bottom feels a little slack so I think that one of the adjusters may have loosened off.

Now going to go and turn everything back to tdc and try and reset the belt then see what happens.

JamesV6CDX · « **Reply #29 on:** 29 April 2009, 20:19:21 »

Quote

the bottom jumps on the belt without actually moving it.

.

Oh heck!
Good luck - start again with that timing and don't turn on the key until you're sure it's fine by hand...

Del Boy · « **Reply #30 on:** 29 April 2009, 20:25:21 »

God mate sorry to hear, you ain't having a lot of luck with that car are ya

star_whites · « **Reply #31 on:** 29 April 2009, 21:37:02 »

Ok new update. Have stripped her all down and found the reason for all the problem and I caused it myself. Teach me for rushing and working in the rain.

On removing timing belt alltogether the bottom crank turns fine. Cams 1,2 & 4 turn all ok however cam 3 was seized solid.

Removed cam cover and removed cam brackets and hey presto there was the problem. When I put the sealant on the end cam bracket I put too much sealant on and it had blocked the oil way causing the cam to seize solid between the head and the cam bracket. On removing, oiling and cleaning up a slight burr it turns purfect and you can clearly hear all valves opening and closing without issue so think I have got away with it. Looks like I need a new belt though!!

jonathanh · « **Reply #32 on:** 29 April 2009, 21:41:41 »

I hope you have got away with it. when you fit the new belt, turn the engine over twice by hand to settle the belt before setting the tensioner. In doing so you'll be able to feel compression and see that everything is turning over ok

good luck and fingers crossed

Bent valve · « **Reply #33 on:** 29 April 2009, 21:50:56 »

Excellent news. I'm happy to hear you got away without any major drama.

Marks DTM Calib · « **Reply #34 on:** 29 April 2009, 21:54:55 »

I cant see how you would get away with it.

I guess teeth have been stripped from the belt?

JamesV6CDX · « **Reply #35 on:** 29 April 2009, 21:55:54 »

Never seen a cam seize through too much sealant on the cover :-/

star_whites · « **Reply #36 on:** 29 April 2009, 22:37:53 »

Well everything is turning ok and all as we have the cam cover off you can see the hydraulic lifters raising and lowering and looking in from the inlet port you can see the vavles working there so fingers crossed no bent valves.

It looks like the belt has stripped on the bottom and that is why its not turning anything. However we are going to put her back together and see what happens as in a way we are glad its the passenger side head as this far easier to remove as we can lift the head off with the manifold attached and there should be no seized bolts this time.

I suppose as it was just going to start and was not under any load that may be why we got away with it, but will let you all know once its back togeher.

star_whites · « **Reply #37 on:** 29 April 2009, 22:39:38 »

It wasnt through too much sealant on the cover it was from too much sealant on the cam bracket that holds it in place. It could also be possible that I torqued it too much which made it tighter.

Either way it was definatly seized.

Marks DTM Calib · « **Reply #38 on:** 30 April 2009, 08:09:02 »

Sealer on the front cam bearing only....and then its a tiny wipe.

You cant over tighten them without snapping the bolts but, make sure they are fitted in the right place

I you have lost teeth then that will bend valves no matter what speed its cranked at.

So, were the other cams all still timed up correctly?

Ian_D · « **Reply #39 on:** 30 April 2009, 13:36:39 »

Title says it all!

I would be looking for new valves, or maybe even complete heads TBH

star_whites · « **Reply #40 on:** 30 April 2009, 22:08:57 »

Ok Fresh update.

Yes the timing was still all aligned on the cams and once freed everything turns perfect. The belt has not lost any teeth at all and appears ok. So the bottom must have slackened when the adjuster slipped and the top cams stayed in position.

Have now rebuild the engine (minus damaged covers

) and reset the timing. Once belt in position removed timing tools and turned the engine by hand three times and everything turns purfect

so hopefully have got away with it.

Carried on and refitted rest of components and filled with fluids. Went to start turned key and hey presto she fired and then cut out. Turned over again and the battery was flat!!!!!..........Each turn slowed and all the lights dimmed on dash so was unable to carry out full test.

Will charge battery tomorrow and let you know how I get on

Omegatoy · « **Reply #41 on:** 01 May 2009, 08:32:22 »

Quote

Ok Fresh update.

Yes the timing was still all aligned on the cams and once freed everything turns perfect. The belt has not lost any teeth at all and appears ok. So the bottom must have slackened when the adjuster slipped and the top cams stayed in position.

Have now rebuild the engine (minus damaged covers ) and reset the timing. Once belt in position removed timing tools and turned the engine by hand three times and everything turns purfect so hopefully have got away with it.

Carried on and refitted rest of components and filled with fluids. Went to start turned key and hey presto she fired and then cut out. Turned over again and the battery was flat!!!!!..........Each turn slowed and all the lights dimmed on dash so was unable to carry out full test.

Will charge battery tomorrow and let you know how I get on

pleased for you buddy, hope its all ok when you start it!!

Marks DTM Calib · « **Reply #42 on:** 01 May 2009, 08:42:25 »

I dont see how one cam being stuck adn a crank turning cna not result in bent valves.....lets hope for the best!

The Cambelt Kid · « **Reply #43 on:** 01 May 2009, 20:38:00 »

Any update fella? it's like reading a book with the last chapter missing

fingers crossed as i know what it's like when working on the v6's.

star_whites · « **Reply #44 on:** 02 May 2009, 09:58:56 »

Ok latest Update!!

Put her all back together and charged battery for a couple of hours.

Turned key and allowed pump to pressurise and then off. Did this a few times and then gave it a go. After a couple of times fired into life and sounded ok. Went to front of engine and oil was spraying everywhere. Turned engine off looked underneath and there is a massive pool of oil. No signs of oil on dipstick. Looked around with torch and the oil was running down the front and the rear of the engine but not down the sides. Put tools away and walked away before I put a sledge hammer to it.

Went out this morning once calmed down, and had a poke around. I could see oil in the V so decided to strip her down again (Ive got it down to just over ten minutes now

). On removing plenum you could see lots of oil in the V so removed injector rail and manifold On removing these the V is full of oil (no water just oil).

Now my first question was has the covers leaked. Answer no oil from covers or down sides of heads. The only other thing I can think of is from the oil cooler!!!

Ive never had a oil cooler off before so put me right if Im wrong please but the two pipes from the oil filter are a inlet and a return pipe for the oil. The water circulates around oil cooler. So Im guessing that either the oil is escaping from one of the unions or from one of the two pipe. Im wondering if I can disable the fuel pump I can turn it over without rebuilding all the plenum and see where the leak is?

Any ideas welcome!!!!!

JamesV6CDX · « **Reply #45 on:** 02 May 2009, 13:42:18 »

Quote

Ok latest Update!!

Put her all back together and charged battery for a couple of hours.

Turned key and allowed pump to pressurise and then off. Did this a few times and then gave it a go. After a couple of times fired into life and sounded ok. Went to front of engine and oil was spraying everywhere. Turned engine off looked underneath and there is a massive pool of oil. No signs of oil on dipstick. Looked around with torch and the oil was running down the front and the rear of the engine but not down the sides. Put tools away and walked away before I put a sledge hammer to it.

Went out this morning once calmed down, and had a poke around. I could see oil in the V so decided to strip her down again (Ive got it down to just over ten minutes now ). On removing plenum you could see lots of oil in the V so removed injector rail and manifold On removing these the V is full of oil (no water just oil).

Now my first question was has the covers leaked. Answer no oil from covers or down sides of heads. The only other thing I can think of is from the oil cooler!!!

Ive never had a oil cooler off before so put me right if Im wrong please but the two pipes from the oil filter are a inlet and a return pipe for the oil. The water circulates around oil cooler. So Im guessing that either the oil is escaping from one of the unions or from one of the two pipe. Im wondering if I can disable the fuel pump I can turn it over without rebuilding all the plenum and see where the leak is?

Any ideas welcome!!!!!

That much oil in the V must be the oil pipe to cooler unions... :-/

star_whites · « **Reply #46 on:** 02 May 2009, 13:53:15 »

If I remove the fuses for the fuel pump is it ok to turn her over with everything removed??

JamesV6CDX · « **Reply #47 on:** 02 May 2009, 14:09:30 »

Quote

If I remove the fuses for the fuel pump is it ok to turn her over with everything removed??

Why would you want to mate?

I'd check those unions first!

star_whites · « **Reply #48 on:** 02 May 2009, 14:22:55 »

I just Wanted to make sure it was a union and not one of the pipes that was spewing it our all over. Plus I can then rectify the problem and check it prior to putting it all back together.

Just thought that with the fuel disconnected turning it over would give enough pressure to force the oil out if it is still leaking, therfore not losign any more oil??

Bent valve · « **Reply #49 on:** 02 May 2009, 16:17:15 »

Quote

I just Wanted to make sure it was a union and not one of the pipes that was spewing it our all over. Plus I can then rectify the problem and check it prior to putting it all back together.

Just thought that with the fuel disconnected turning it over would give enough pressure to force the oil out if it is still leaking, therfore not losign any more oil??

If you can spin it over fast enough you should generate some oil flow, but remember to make sure there is some oil left in the sump!

You could remove the plugs to lessen the strain and make it spin faster

star_whites · « **Reply #50 on:** 02 May 2009, 18:21:08 »

Ok another update.

Stipped oil cooler unions and checked pipes but unable to see any cracks. Cleaned up and rebuild pipes however I was unable to find out which fuse/relay is was to isolate the fuel pump to enable me to turn it over without a rebuild. So I put it all back together and hey presto a couple of litres of oil pouring out of the engine in the same places. First at the back and then at the front, again from the V section so I think there must be a fractured pipe in there.

So if anyone has a set of oil pipes give me a shout.

JamesV6CDX · « **Reply #51 on:** 02 May 2009, 18:23:45 »

Have the pipes been bent at any time?

star_whites · « **Reply #52 on:** 02 May 2009, 18:26:41 »

Not as far as Im aware James. We didnt remove them whilst doing heads, but saying that I wasnt always there when my Brother was working on it. There may be a possibility he was in the engine bay kneeling on them?

I know he sat on top of the left bank while removing the right bank but I wasnt there when he removed the other bank.

Thats 6/7 of vx oil down the drain or should I say on the front lawn as thats where it ran too

JamesV6CDX · « **Reply #53 on:** 02 May 2009, 18:29:54 »

Chin up mate, you'll get there. Sometimes these things happen.

On my 406 - I fitted the rear turbo oil feed pipe perfectly - it still Piddled out of there, when first started, and I had to re-seat it...

star_whites · « **Reply #54 on:** 02 May 2009, 18:35:07 »

Im getting fed up of throwing good money down the drain. It was all running fine prior to starting stripping for this damn water leak.

I hate public transport. I wouldnt mind but if I had received my bonuses from work when they were due I would have been buying new ones of these anyway so its bloody works fauly :-/

ngrainqey · « **Reply #55 on:** 02 May 2009, 19:00:13 »

you could go totally ape and get another lump lol
you engine just seems to have leaks spring up everywhere...id have hit it with a hammer by now so keep at it for the benefit of a british made engine

Bent valve · « **Reply #56 on:** 02 May 2009, 23:03:41 »

Quote

Im getting fed up of throwing good money down the drain. It was all running fine prior to starting stripping for this damn water leak.

I hate public transport. I wouldnt mind but if I had received my bonuses from work when they were due I would have been buying new ones of these anyway so its bloody works fauly :-/

You're not a down on his luck Banker are you?

star_whites · « **Reply #57 on:** 02 May 2009, 23:55:29 »

Nahhh works booming, its just they dont like parting with there money. But then again who does

Bent valve · « **Reply #58 on:** 03 May 2009, 06:53:23 »

I dont want to sound negative about your oil leak, but have you considered that oil may be escaping from the oil feed to the head via the head gasket?

The oil feed hole is very close to the edge of the gasket and if it was peeing out from there for whatever reason, it would end up in the vee

This could also explain your oil starvation to the cam.....

star_whites · « **Reply #59 on:** 03 May 2009, 18:21:22 »

It could be possible but without being able to run car while stripped down I will never see it. Saying that the leak appears to be at the rear of the engine as it runs down the rear first and then down the front slightly afterwards so Im guessing its at the rear. I tested this theory with water as I removed the cooler bridge. The water ran down the rear and slowly ran forward and down the front however there was no where near as much water from the cooler bridge than there was oil.

I think I will try the cooler pipes first and then consider the gasket if it doesnt work. Thats unless anyone knows how to disable the fuel pump to enable me to turn it over stripped down. Cause in its current state fuel would pump all over the place :-/

dbug · « **Reply #60 on:** 03 May 2009, 18:34:32 »

Fuse 18 mate

star_whites · « **Reply #61 on:** 03 May 2009, 19:21:20 »

I take it you mean fuse 18 in the fusebox under steering wheel??

kingplym · « **Reply #62 on:** 03 May 2009, 20:22:51 »

in the fuse box under steering wheel middle row 3rd from the right. its what i been pulling to remove my plenum and injector rail etc when changing my cooler last week

star_whites · « **Reply #63 on:** 03 May 2009, 21:00:47 »

Ok I will strip the plenum off again tomorrow and remove the injector manifold and then give it a go to make sure, thanks for the advice

MutantCav · « **Reply #64 on:** 03 May 2009, 21:02:03 »

Why not just remove the fuel pump relay?? The 2 purple relays in the engine bay fuse box??

star_whites · « **Reply #65 on:** 04 May 2009, 18:55:19 »

Ok tried this but could not find any oil leak. Looks like it only does it under load so bang goes the idea of testing it before putting it all back together.

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Author Topic: V6 Disaster (Read 5171 times)

Welung666

feeutfo

feeutfo