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[maracus]

When you blip the throttle, short n sharp, as it picks up off idle, you hear a rattle sort of slap noise- I think it's coming from inside the cam belt cover hence I think (it's that sort of sound???) that it's my tensioner having a hissyfit. It's worrying me to the point of 'I'm going to do it this weekend!!' If it hasn't broke by then.

I was suspicious that the cambelt hadnt been done as promised so was going to do it anyway, just not quite that soon!

Do tensioners get that worn that they slap or is it likely I've got something else going on?

While I'm doing the cambelt I'll do the rocker cover gaskets as I'm there, also got some new oil ready to go in when I drop the sump to clean the pickup.

Busy weekend ahead...

[Gaffers]

More likely to be lifters.  If the tensioner was making that noise you would already have major cyl head damage.

Couple of quick oil changes and a Wynns lifter treatment?

[maracus]

More likely to be lifters.  If the tensioner was making that noise you would already have major cyl head damage.

Couple of quick oil changes and a Wynns lifter treatment?

on it. Cheers. Will do cambelt all the same though...
 

[Kevin Wood]

I could imagine it might be the cam belt tensioner bottoming out at the end of its' travel if it's come loose or started to fail. If the cam belt history is in any doubt, it's always best to change it, IMHO.

[dbug]

Check aux belt tensioner bearing is well greased and not partially seized - you can check this before removing cam belt cover 

[maracus]

I could imagine it might be the cam belt tensioner bottoming out at the end of its' travel if it's come loose or started to fail. If the cam belt history is in any doubt, it's always best to change it, IMHO.

That's what I'd imagine it to be from how it sounds- you get a similar effect and sound turning it by hand ie. Checking after changing a belt- only with setting the tension getting forgotten... Ahem... (wistles) but...

More likely to be lifters.  If the tensioner was making that noise you would already have major cyl head damage.

Couple of quick oil changes and a Wynns lifter treatment?

...when I first started trying to pinpoint the sound, I thought it was coming from the o/s cam area, then decided it was more frontward. Possibly.

So anyway, I'm thinking do the wynns thing (I'm about to buy sone and read the destructions), then will dump the oil out (it's not long been changed anyway) remove the sump and clean the pickup, then do the cambelt at the weekend. That way I'll know if the lifter treatment helped hence if that was making the noise...

Check aux belt tensioner bearing is well greased and not partially seized - you can check this before removing cam belt cover 

Will check that also  but doubt it's that...

[The Red Baron]

just a point, check the waterpump pully isnt rattling around, had a bearing failure on mine the other week. took some finding as i thought it was the aux belt pully. safe than sorry check.

[maracus]

just a point, check the waterpump pully isnt rattling around, had a bearing failure on mine the other week. took some finding as i thought it was the aux belt pully. safe than sorry check.

Another good point cheers 



This thing with the wynns, all it says is to add to the oil with it warm then run as normal- I'm assuming just until the weekend will be fine- it gives no indication as to how long it has to/ can stay in for???

[noel]

This thing with the wynns, all it says is to add to the oil with it warm then run as normal- I'm assuming just until the weekend will be fine- it gives no indication as to how long it has to/ can stay in for???
[/quote]for the duration of oil changes if you are changing the oil

[maracus]

Well that's the list compiled that I need to order tomorrow, consisting of;

Rocker cover gaskets and the related o-rings, gaskets etc,
Cambelt kit,
O-rings quoted for clearing the breathers,
A top up bottle for the ATF as that wants checking
Air filter.

All in all, a raping for the card I'm sure but I'm relishing the mission ahead...

The sealant I need for the rocker cover gaskets, how big is a tube? Will one tube be enough for rocker covers AND the sump; also, what specifics do I need re my ATF?? Ie. Will the old tub of comma Auto box fluid (AQM iirc) do the job?

[serek]

Well that's the list compiled that I need to order tomorrow, consisting of;

Rocker cover gaskets and the related o-rings, gaskets etc,
Cambelt kit,
O-rings quoted for clearing the breathers,
A top up bottle for the ATF as that wants checking
Air filter.

All in all, a raping for the card I'm sure but I'm relishing the mission ahead...

The sealant I need for the rocker cover gaskets, how big is a tube? Will one tube be enough for rocker covers AND the sump; also, what specifics do I need re my ATF?? Ie. Will the old tub of comma Auto box fluid (AQM iirc) do the job?

cam covers sealant  black
sump sealant grey

[maracus]

  two it is then  I had it in my head they were the same... 

[Kevin Wood]

You can eliminate all the ancillaries by removing the aux belt and running it briefly to see if the noise is still present.

[maracus]

You can eliminate all the ancillaries by removing the aux belt and running it briefly to see if the noise is still present.

Cool beans, I'll have a look later at the car when I finish work 

[Kevin Wood]

You can eliminate all the ancillaries by removing the aux belt and running it briefly to see if the noise is still present.

Cool beans, I'll have a look later at the car when I finish work 

You'll have no cooling as the water pump is driven by the aux. belt, so make it brief.

[cem_devecioglu]

may sound daft but pour some water from top to cambelt area.. you will hear an increased noise with increased rpm..
 
thats how I discovered my cambelt was loose accidentally..

[maracus]

You can eliminate all the ancillaries by removing the aux belt and running it briefly to see if the noise is still present.

Cool beans, I'll have a look later at the car when I finish work 

You'll have no cooling as the water pump is driven by the aux. belt, so make it brief.

Cool  nearly done it just now but decided to wait until later as I need the car shortly and knowing my luck the spanner will slip and break the inlet pipe or something daft, so will wait til there's less pressure for a 5 minute job to actually take 5 mins!

Went to order the bits from my local vauxhall earlier, only ordered the cambelt kit- the rocker covers can wait for now as it all came in at £sillymoney so I've ordered the more essential bits- cambelt kit, grey sealant and a air filter for good measure. At least I can have the sump off to check the oil pickup and change that suspect tensioner and co. so at least that's going to be spot on.

Although I am slightly concerned by the fact that I've found Mayo staining down the oil fill, and that the car seems to steam out the exhaust a lot- nothing like clouds of it just a little, but even so its a bit of an eyebrow raiser... Hmmm. But that said, there's no apparent coolant loss, oil levels as close to spot on and no signs of excessive pressure/depressure in the header, no exhaust smells there either, although the oil smells a bit gassy maybe. No signs of oil in Water either so again looks like I'll see how it goes.

[maracus]

may sound daft but pour some water from top to cambelt area.. you will hear an increased noise with increased rpm..
 
thats how I discovered my cambelt was loose accidentally..

I'll change the cambelt regardless so hopefully I'll know from that if it's that but an interesting diagnosis method!

Reminds me of a technique i heard once for checking a radiator for leaks after a repair- fill it with fully skimmed MILK apparently it's thinner than water and will find the smallest if holes!

[maracus]

I have dropped the aux belt and it seems to still make the noise, just the way it was at that particular time or somehow related, but it took more encouragement to get it to make the sound, but it DID do it still. Also after listening from various angles it does seem possible that it's coming from inside the cam belt cover, so all I can so is wait for the kit to arrive and get stuck in at the weekend. Also I gotta look at a blow that has opened back up on the exhaust (again) so looks like I'll need replacement cat pipes- preferably without cats lol, so I've got that to keep me busy for a bit this evening. Oh the joy...

And in reflection about my previous thread regarding the Mayo in the oil filler, it's disappeared. And no it don't smell gassy, just the hot oil fumes hit me hard in the nose like a vix vaporub!

[maracus]

Exhaust sorted again for now... Seems my floor vs floor incident has popped the seams on the silencers! Sooo out came the 'exhaust in a tube goo' and a good smear round all the areas I coud get without too much contortism as the car wasn't much high off the floor. Still a slight blow from somewhere around the top but my fingers were starting to go hard and I nearly ran out of putty so will save what I got for the next hole that develops! Will get back on subject with the cambelt I promise...

[maracus]

Huh. Just when you think all is coming together..

I had my locking kit on hire and a rocker gasket set arrive today. Impressed. I only called them yesterday afternoon.

So anyway, went bouncing in to the stealers to collect my 1)cambelt kit 2)gasket goo 3) sump goo 4) air filter 5) ATF, only to be told the order hadn't came in!

So I said id be back in the morning to see if it comes in, and took the ATF thinking at least I could check that when I get home- nice quick and easy.

So I jacks the car up, placed a spanner after a squirt of wd, turned, and the head practically fell to bits from rust! D'oh!!

So there you go, if this order fails to come in, there's no cambelt, no gasket, no air filter (failed by an air filter dammit!!) and no ATF top up at least til tomorrow when I can be arsed to go back out there!

Very unsuccessful one of them hours I think!

[maracus]

Getting there with it.. Got as far as removing the inlet trumpets and had a call, got roped into doing a hospital run for a friend. So the car sits in bits in the shed, as expected lol. But on the plus side, I haven't broke anything yet and have decided to pick up some plugs for it tomorrow. What a ballache to do them another time eh lol


Quick question, when cleaning the breathers out, (I have read the guide), are replacement seals/orings essential or just if they are perished?

Can't be arsed to wait for new ones to come if I don't need lol

[albitz]

Only if they are perished. ...........mayo on oil filler neck is not a big problem,usually caused by short journeys and made worse by colder weather.Some steam from the exhaust - most likely just H2o from combustion process.No cause for concern unless accompanied by other symptoms such as loss of coolant. Would have advised a gates or contitech cambelt kit from ebay but probably too late now.
Easier to change plugs while you have all the other inlet stuff already off,but not a big deal either way,its a bit awkward and takes a bit of time whichever way you go at it.

[maracus]

Only if they are perished. ...........mayo on oil filler neck is not a big problem,usually caused by short journeys and made worse by colder weather.Some steam from the exhaust - most likely just H2o from combustion process.No cause for concern unless accompanied by other symptoms such as loss of coolant. Would have advised a gates or contitech cambelt kit from ebay but probably too late now.
Easier to change plugs while you have all the other inlet stuff already off,but not a big deal either way,its a bit awkward and takes a bit of time whichever way you go at it.

Mayo  the filler is only after stop start 'return from work' journeys, so that's ok... Steamy exhausts is something that lifts an eyebrow for me every time lmao! I just can't help but worry when I see it! Mind, I've noticed if you leave it parked a few days, if it really is a problem, you tend to get coolant crystallisation around the tailpipe! (and, Loss of coolant  ) Had that with a previous car.
This don't seem to use any coolant, I filled it when I had to change a pipe and it dropped to marginally below the full level, I'm assuming after some trapped air bled out, but hasn't seemed to drop since so not too concerned there.

A mate of mine swears by gates belts, if it's not gates he won't use it. Got a good price at vauxhall but can't help but feel I could have saved £30 by getting elsewhere.. It's in my poseeion now so a thought for next time.

Plugs are going on! NGK's from the local factors  jobs a good'un!

[albitz]

Vauxhall use Gates and Contitech belts.
Sounds like your car is getting a good sort out.Should run sweet when your finished.

[maracus]

Vauxhall use Gates and Contitech belts.
Sounds like your car is getting a good sort out.Should run sweet when your finished.

Lol the plan is to have it all top notch so when I gas it I won't have to get my hands dirty again for a while, bar regular oil changes!

Another quick one, the tensioner for the aux belt. There is the slightest of play in it, but when you spin it by hand it's a bit noisy. Are they serviceable or just stick it back on with a good squirt of wd??

[The Red Baron]

Vauxhall use Gates and Contitech belts.
Sounds like your car is getting a good sort out.Should run sweet when your finished.

Lol the plan is to have it all top notch so when I gas it I won't have to get my hands dirty again for a while, bar regular oil changes!

Another quick one, the tensioner for the aux belt. There is the slightest of play in it, but when you spin it by hand it's a bit noisy. Are they serviceable or just stick it back on with a good squirt of wd??

you can re-pack these with grease, carefully pop the seals & grease.

[maracus]

Vauxhall use Gates and Contitech belts.
Sounds like your car is getting a good sort out.Should run sweet when your finished.

Lol the plan is to have it all top notch so when I gas it I won't have to get my hands dirty again for a while, bar regular oil changes!

Another quick one, the tensioner for the aux belt. There is the slightest of play in it, but when you spin it by hand it's a bit noisy. Are they serviceable or just stick it back on with a good squirt of wd??

you can re-pack these with grease, carefully pop the seals & grease.

That's good for me 

[albitz]

Mine got very noisy last xmas.Repacked it with grease and its been fine ever since.

[maracus]

I think I know what was the issue here- tensioner was slack. It was barely off the stop when I first saw it, and was on the stop turning it over by hand! Scary!!

Anyway I don't know how long it's been on there but the print was 99.9% rubbed off, and there was belt dust around the place, but the belt don't compare any narrower than the new one so I don't think it's tracking in or out, either the belts done 72,000 miles or the belt was slapping about and wearing because of that. Idlers seemed nice and tight so I suspect he did change the kit, but new kit going on regardless because I don't know what the loose tensioner has done to the belts longevity.

As for the rocker covers, the plugs were full of oil, looked like the engine equivalent of a <expletive - admin edit - sorry!> and oil oozing out from a couple of the rocker cover bolts. What's the score with the idler pulleys; fit the belt round them and pull the tension out? I notice they are eccentric. Do I need to position the top one that's in the carrier with the tensioner, or is that pre-set?

[Kevin Wood]

Sounds like you've dodged a bullet there.

[Kevin Wood]

Regarding the cam belt fitting, earlier 2.5/3.0 engines both idler pulleys are eccentric and need to be adjusted. On the 2.6/3.2 only the top one between the heads requires adjustment.

If you are doing this for the first time, I'd recommend watching the DVD available from the OOF shop, as it's a difficult procedure to explain (and Haynes do a particularly bad job, so don't follow that whatever you do.)

The procedure depends if you have the earlier or later engine, anf if your belt has timing marks printed on it.

[maracus]

Sounds like you've dodged a bullet there.

I watched the matrix lol

The idler/tensioner pulley Carrier is marked EB and it's the 3.0 ltr if that answers that one- no marks on the belt only a barcode and product info. The impression I got was that you fit the (backplate+tensioner+idler) and the lower idler, fit belt, turn and set idlers to the least slack position (to take up excessive belt slack???) then set the tensioner by holding in position with the Allen hole and tighten the 13mm bolt.

Simples???

[maracus]

...or not.

All well and good until I removed the camshaft locks. They went in easy but were a right pig to pull out. Got them out eventually with some persuasion, but the left bank inlet cam is now clearly a tooth out. It wasn't before. So unless I put the locks in upside down (they weren't marked 'top') I'm well baffled.

Turns over ok though by hand but I bet it would run like a sack of sh!te??

[Andy H]

If the cam locks don't slide in/out easily then that is the time to stop & recheck everything.

My guess is that there was no tension on the belt between cam 2 and cam 3 (probably because it was a tooth out)

[maracus]

If the cam locks don't slide in/out easily then that is the time to stop & recheck everything.

My guess is that there was no tension on the belt between cam 2 and cam 3 (probably because it was a tooth out)

Thats what I can't understand why. I must have put the locks in upside down, they would only go in one way and the marks all lined up properly to start with.. I don't think the tools had locked properly as a result. So the pulleys moved enough to knock it out a tooth. Maybe I just didn't try hard enough to get them in the 'right' way.

When I went to remove them you could see they were badly meshed with the cam pulleys.

Tensions all seem spot on tho so I reckon I got something right lol and if it was down to them being wrong before, it would have been a tooth out already?

Fook knows but I'm going to pull it all off and start again tomorrow, with the drivers side bank locked, bottom pulley locked and reset the passenger side by hand (urgghhhhh!!!)

[albitz]

Which make of locking tools are you using ?

[Andy H]

If the cam locks don't slide in/out easily then that is the time to stop & recheck everything.

My guess is that there was no tension on the belt between cam 2 and cam 3 (probably because it was a tooth out)

Thats what I can't understand why. I must have put the locks in upside down, they would only go in one way and the marks all lined up properly to start with.. I don't think the tools had locked properly as a result. So the pulleys moved enough to knock it out a tooth. Maybe I just didn't try hard enough to get them in the 'right' way.

When I went to remove them you could see they were badly meshed with the cam pulleys.

Tensions all seem spot on tho so I reckon I got something right lol and if it was down to them being wrong before, it would have been a tooth out already?

Fook knows but I'm going to pull it all off and start again tomorrow, with the drivers side bank locked, bottom pulley locked and reset the passenger side by hand (urgghhhhh!!!)

With care you should be able to turn the crank until the marks on the left bank line up with the notches in the back plate, slide the cam lock in, and then wind the crank back one tooth so the right bank lines up & slide the other lock in.

(you might need to hold the belt in place on cam 3 and turn cam 3 back by hand as the tension comes off the belt)

Whatever you do don't release the cams unless/until the crank is turned back to 30 deg BTDC to avoid valves touching pistons.

[maracus]

Which make of locking tools are you using ?

The ones Autovaux send out. They don't look like the GM kit I've seen pictures of- no plastic handles on the camshaft keys and the timing plate thing looks different. I've read that the camshaft keys should go in, paying attention to the 'top' Mark being at the top. These have no markings whatsoever.

Had enough for tonight lol

[aaronjb]

Do they look like this: http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/3401134.htm ?

[maracus]

Do they look like this: http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/3401134.htm ?

Pretty much, yes. Just in a stumpy square box not a long one like that.

Bugger 45 squid. By the time Autovaux get this kit back I'd only be £15 out from buying that one!!

[albitz]

Be glad that it isnt that one.Thats a Laser kit and they dont have a very good reputation for accuracy.Thats why I asked the question,in case you were using one of those.

[aaronjb]

Beaten to it - what Albs said

[maracus]

Be glad that it isnt that one.Thats a Laser kit and they dont have a very good reputation for accuracy.Thats why I asked the question,in case you were using one of those.

"laser" that's the name I was thinking of; I had a laser item a while ago for my 1800 ECOTEC.

It was pants. Ended up doing my nut so I threw it on the bench and done it by hand. Much easier.

This kit looks very "laser" to me and lacks any kind of branding labelling.

[aaronjb]

Sykes Pikavant has a better reputation if I recall correctly? Although looking at their catalogue, the kit looks identical to the Laser one.. so maybe I mis-remembered that 

[maracus]

Picture to follow, if my lack of 3G and desire to wait for the router to wake up allows it...

[Kevin Wood]

Laser did have a spate of poor quality castings a couple of years back, and some kits simply didn't fit a V6 engine. I believe a member contacted laser and they had been recalled, but some unscrupulous retailers just e-bayed the faulty kits instead of returning them.

I have a laser kit and, whilst it isn't the best quality, it does the job. If we can believe the above, then the truly useless ones should be out of circulation by now.

[maracus]

Read the instructions when I got in last night, D'oh! Found them in the bottom of the box, lol

Fron the pictures in the book, I reckon they were upside down! They did just slide in but wouldn't the 'right' way, though I reckon some careful manipulation would'a seen them in.

It's the Sykes pikavant kit

User error!

[albitz]

SP - quality.

[maracus]

Tomorrow brings the joy of setting the timing properly on the left bank. But for tonight, I have been tackling my rocker cover gaskets. All going well, got my covers drying on the radiator after a blast with the old engine degreaser and some finger-hosepipe action, I randomly remembered my fuel pressure regulator vacuum springing off out of site on removal- I have had a feel round with my fingers and can't bloomin' find it!

Would that be because it's attached to the big pipe off the idle contol valve, sitting on my bench, or do I need to keep searching?

Lol

[Andy H]

Tomorrow brings the joy of setting the timing properly on the left bank. But for tonight, I have been tackling my rocker cover gaskets. All going well, got my covers drying on the radiator after a blast with the old engine degreaser and some finger-hosepipe action, I randomly remembered my fuel pressure regulator vacuum springing off out of site on removal- I have had a feel round with my fingers and can't bloomin' find it!

Would that be because it's attached to the big pipe off the idle control valve, sitting on my bench, or do I need to keep searching?

Lol

Yes 

[maracus]

  nice I'm glad I came to that conclusion before long lol

Nearly there with it now, just gotta get the aux pulleys/belt back on and the inlet gubbins injector rail etc then it's time to fire it up but before I do I have one thing bugging me,

What torque is the tensioner supposed to be set to?

The Haynes says 40 for the eccentric pulleys (iirc) but only 20 for the main tensioner.
But, since doing it up to te stated 20, checking, then refitting the cambelt cover, I have read elsewhere it should be up to 40, the same as Haynes quoted for the lower and upper pulleys!

So which is right? Haynes book of jokes or the 'total vauxhall' v6 cambelt change guide??

[Kevin Wood]

20nm is correct for the bolt on the tensioner. 40nm for the idler pulleys and backplate casting.

[maracus]

20nm is correct for the bolt on the tensioner. 40nm for the idler pulleys and backplate casting.

mind at rest, thanks.

Now I just need to finish getting it back together when I get home.. Fingers crossed it'll run lol

[maracus]

Nearly there...  I have a random pipe maybe it's a gearbox breather???

It's zip tied to the breather that splits to two on the inlet plenum that y piece elbow thing off the big pipe. I can't remember removing it and can't find a home and it goes south down the back of the engine bay so I'm assuming it's a gearbox breather...

[maracus]

Well I have just made a successful 50odd mile round trip in the car, and all seems good (ish) everything seems to work...

Except the cooling fan! I'm slightly puzzled as I don't remember disconnecting the cooling fan (it is still connected) so a bit unsure why that's suddenly stopped working, but will investigate tomorrow. But the main thing is, (as far as the relevance of this thread is concearned) that my cam belt change went well. Took all week, but got the results needed.

Also established that my camshafts are on their deathbed as it looks like they've overheated at some point with blueing to the ends of the lobes, which has started to wear away- but it's only minor so far so will try to keep in check with a oil flush (got some wynns engine flush, give it a go in case internal oil ways are blocked) mandatory regular oil changes, til I can be bothered to change them for some less worn ones lol.

I've also failed to properly assess the issue with the rocker covers, seems the drivers side bank is still gashing oil out, so maybe it's warped/damaged but hey, more fool me for not properly evaluating the situation!

[JayMV6]

Congrats on getting the timing done properly bud. Does sound like a warpped rocker cover tho.

[maracus]

Congrats on getting the timing done properly bud. Does sound like a warpped rocker cover tho.

I think so.. I shoulda known really, the previous owner reckoned he'd done them and when I found a blockage in a breather I assumed it had simply blown out under pressure, but it's only the drivers side so at least I won't have to battle with the wiring loom to get it off again, lmao!

My confidence has notched up a level now

Feel smug too , my brother came over on Saturday, he was a bus mechanic for 15 years, so imagine my satisfaction when he told me I know better what I'm doing than he does, he's never done a cambelt!! Ha!

I did have a new air filter to go in too, from vauxhall, but it don't seem to fit, its about 4mm longer than the box, was there different spec air filters for different models/eras? It would go in but all crumpled and the box wouldn't close so I put the old airblocker back in lol anyone shed light on that?

Should get a project thread updated really this is a cambelt thread lol!

[albitz]

As far as I know the airfilters were all the same,but Im willing to be corrected.
Camcovers dont usually warp,but if they have been seriously overtightened its possible.Did you tighten them to 8nm ?
Which engine is in your car by the way ?

[maracus]

As far as I know the airfilters were all the same,but Im willing to be corrected.
Camcovers dont usually warp,but if they have been seriously overtightened its possible.Did you tighten them to 8nm ?
Which engine is in your car by the way ?

It's the 3.0

And they were torqued to bang on, my torque wrench only went down to about 30 so I brought one specially 

And sealant used where directed.

[maracus]

As far as I know the airfilters were all the same,but Im willing to be corrected.
Camcovers dont usually warp,but if they have been seriously overtightened its possible.Did you tighten them to 8nm ?
Which engine is in your car by the way ?

It's the 3.0

And they were torqued to bang on, my torque wrench only went down to about 30 so I brought one specially 

And sealant used where directed.

Update; I think it's all good now, the whole thing with me assuming my rocker cover was still leaking I think was me jumping the gun- I was still getting the smell of burning oil after arriving at the destination. It only happened a couple of times- I haven't had the smell for the last few days- so I'm thinking maybe oil was puddled up somewhere from when it WAS leaking, and I was initially getting that sloshing out and burning off during cornering/ braking etc.

Is that feesable? All now seems good on the cambelt and gasket front 

[M Kerr]

Did you get the fan working?  Is the temperature gauge working?

[maracus]

Did you get the fan working?  Is the temperature gauge working?

Yeah it works lol don't think I was letting it get hot enough lol got scared! But yes, it works as it should