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Author Topic: Network help needed :(  (Read 2577 times)

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Entwood

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Network help needed :(
« on: 25 July 2018, 23:05:03 »

Despite numerous searches and various "fixes" the problem still exists and I'm stumped :( Wondering if anyone else has or knows of a solution.

Problem is easy to explain .... windows 10 on all devices, before the last upgrade (1803) my simple WIRELESS network of 1 desktop PC (with printer attached), 1 tablet and 1 laptop all worked well as a "Homegroup" shared the relevant files and printer, and worked as it should.

All 3 devices have now "upgraded" to 1803 and I cannot get the network to function as it should, and did previously, as "homegroup" no longer exists ... :(

What it does is relatively simple ...  the first device switched on, regardless of which it is, will "see" both the other two quite happily once they boot up, and share files with them as it should .... but the other two will only "see" themselves on the network, and nothing else.

This is a pain as if the main PC is on first, as it usually is, then documents cannot be "sent" to the printer from tablet/laptop as the main PC is not visible, but they can be printed from the main PC as they are visible on the tablet/laptop ...

So "network" is no longer a "network" but is "hub and spoke" with the first device as the "hub" ..... :(

Don't know if anyone can shed light on causes ??
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zirk

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Re: Network help needed :(
« Reply #1 on: 26 July 2018, 12:25:17 »

Its been on the cards that Homegroup was going to be removed for a while now, Homegroup was a simple Pre Cloud type feature but people were using it in all sorts of different ways and reasons. What MS really want you to use now is a Cloud type feature like OneDrive so you Pics and Doc etc are already there on each device, personally speaking although OneDrive works well for Mobile devices its an absolute Dogs Dinner for setting up and syncing on PC's and Lappy's compared to other Cloud Services.

There are a number of ways to set up an alternative so called Homegroup, but to be honest the best method is to have a breather and think about exactly what it is you want to achieve between File Sharing, each Devices, WorkGroup, Network etc then set something up from there on.

As for Print Sharing, again depends on the Printers capabilities, most modern Printers now can be set up so it will print from most devices on the Network without the need for a PC Host.

« Last Edit: 26 July 2018, 12:29:14 by zirk »
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STEMO

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Re: Network help needed :(
« Reply #2 on: 26 July 2018, 12:29:26 »

Its been on the cards that Homegroup was going to be removed for a while now, Homegroup was a simple Pre Cloud type feature but peoiple were using it in all sorts of different ways and reasons. What MS really want you to use now is a Cloud type feature like OneDrive so you Pics and Doc etc are already there on each device, personally speaking although OneDrive works well for Mobile devices its an absolute Dogs Dinner for setting up and syncing on PC's and Lappy's compared to other Cloud Services.

There are aq number of ways to set up an alternative so called Homegroup, but to be honest the best method is to have a breather and think about exactly what it is you want to achieve between Files, the Devices, WorkGroup, Network etc then set something up from there on.

As for Print Sharing, again depends on the Printers capabilities, most modern Printers now can be set up so it will print from most devices on the Network without the need for a PC Host.
Yes. Our (cheap) HP printer is visible from PC, laptop, tablets and mobile phones.
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Rods2

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Re: Network help needed :(
« Reply #3 on: 27 July 2018, 21:08:14 »

I had a horrible problem like this where my old Linux server is using SMB-V1 and after updating to Windows 10 1803 One PC that I was actively using with the Linux server was okay but part of the Microsoft update was that if SMB-V1 was not used within 10 days of the update SMB-V1 was automatically turned off >:( >:( >:( for security purposes as SMB-V1 does have some security issues. This is what happened on my other Win. 10 PC, it went from seeing all devices to seeing nothing. Solving this problem was a right bar-steward and took much Googling and several hours to eventually home in on the problem. >:( >:( >:(

I found I that Win 10 PC not only lost seeing and being able to log on to the Linux server but it also wouldn't see any other devices on the network including my other Windows 10 PC and the printer. Is your printer using SMB-V1 to receive the printer files? It is these sort of not widely publicized Microsoft update traps that so often change things from working to not working on Windows updates. >:( >:( >:( Drivers and peripherals suddenly not working after an update I've had happen on numerous occasions in Windows 7 >:( >:( >:( but fortunately not so far in Win. 10.

The fix for me is that you can turn SMB-V1 on again in Windows 10 and this solved my problems. I'm in the process of building a new Linux server and will disable SMB-V1 in Windows 10 once this is commissioned.

https://support.microsoft.com/en-gb/help/4034314/smbv1-is-not-installed-by-default-in-windows

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/2696547/how-to-detect-enable-and-disable-smbv1-smbv2-and-smbv3-in-windows-and

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Re: Network help needed :(
« Reply #4 on: 28 July 2018, 20:47:14 »

Anyone/anything still using SMB1 need stringing up and shooting.
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Entwood

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Re: Network help needed :(
« Reply #5 on: 30 July 2018, 16:49:26 »

Thanks for all the ideas. gratefully accepted, but none of them work ... :( First machine switched on sees the other two quite happily, but they don't see anything but themselves, regardless of which way round I switch them on.

Now resigned to switching main PC on first (it usually is), then other machine(s), then doing what I want by copying from "other1" to "main" then across to "other2" (if needed) to transfer files, or "anyother" to "main" to print.

Pain in the arris, and not what I call a network ... but MS as always thinks it knows best .... someone please just explain to me why I have to connect all three to cloud services to have a properly working network ??

Not going to happen.

:(
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Allenm

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Re: Network help needed :(
« Reply #6 on: 30 July 2018, 17:19:40 »

Not something I have setup on Windows 10, so maybe of no use, but have you looked at the settings for file and printer sharing?

Go to Control Panel>All control panel items > Network and Sharing Centre > Advanced sharing settings

have a look to see if the profile has discovery turned on.

Might be a red herring, but worth a look.
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Entwood

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Re: Network help needed :(
« Reply #7 on: 30 July 2018, 18:22:18 »

Not something I have setup on Windows 10, so maybe of no use, but have you looked at the settings for file and printer sharing?

Go to Control Panel>All control panel items > Network and Sharing Centre > Advanced sharing settings

have a look to see if the profile has discovery turned on.

Might be a red herring, but worth a look.

All set up on all three devices ... :(
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zirk

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Re: Network help needed :(
« Reply #8 on: 01 August 2018, 02:45:52 »

Thanks for all the ideas. gratefully accepted, but none of them work ... :( First machine switched on sees the other two quite happily, but they don't see anything but themselves, regardless of which way round I switch them on.

Now resigned to switching main PC on first (it usually is), then other machine(s), then doing what I want by copying from "other1" to "main" then across to "other2" (if needed) to transfer files, or "anyother" to "main" to print.

Pain in the arris, and not what I call a network ... but MS as always thinks it knows best .... someone please just explain to me why I have to connect all three to cloud services to have a properly working network ??

Not going to happen.

:(
You dont, thats not going to help you,  the only reason I mentioned the word "The Cloud" is thats how MS and Google want you to sync your Files these days between Devices (A Simple Solution for most) rather than using an older (hack-able) solution like Homegroup.

Tbh Entwood, Homegroup is no longer going to be supported by win10, so even if you did managed to get it working again, its only a question of time before it falls over again.

Easyiest way, is to dis configure your homegroup, delete all properties relating to it, reboot each device and printer and set up a new simple Workgroup to suit your needs.
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Entwood

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Re: Network help needed :(
« Reply #9 on: 01 August 2018, 15:46:44 »

Thanks for all the ideas. gratefully accepted, but none of them work ... :( First machine switched on sees the other two quite happily, but they don't see anything but themselves, regardless of which way round I switch them on.

Now resigned to switching main PC on first (it usually is), then other machine(s), then doing what I want by copying from "other1" to "main" then across to "other2" (if needed) to transfer files, or "anyother" to "main" to print.

Pain in the arris, and not what I call a network ... but MS as always thinks it knows best .... someone please just explain to me why I have to connect all three to cloud services to have a properly working network ??

Not going to happen.

:(
You dont, thats not going to help you,  the only reason I mentioned the word "The Cloud" is thats how MS and Google want you to sync your Files these days between Devices (A Simple Solution for most) rather than using an older (hack-able) solution like Homegroup.

Tbh Entwood, Homegroup is no longer going to be supported by win10, so even if you did managed to get it working again, its only a question of time before it falls over again.

Easyiest way, is to dis configure your homegroup, delete all properties relating to it,reboot each device and printer and set up a new simple Workgroup to suit your needs.

That's what I've been trying to do !!! and until now, with very little success, however ........   :)

Found on one web site a tiny comment about MS networking not allowing root access to discs ... so tried something ...   I have multiple discs in my system, only one of which has any operating system files on it .. the rest are pure data: music, photos, films, documents and some backups ..

So my disk D which only contains music .. instead of sharing the whole drive, I make a new folder labelled "Drive D" and copy everything into it, then share that folder ... and suddenly it works .. network access in both directions, do the same for ALL the drives on all 3 devices ..ie .. make a pseudo drive in a folder for what I want to share, and it all works as it used to ... all 3 devices see all shares ... just like a network should !!

It would appear that 1803 simply stops root access to a disk, but doesn't tell you ... :(

Thank you MS .... really grateful I've wasted so many hours, and have now got a cluttered, complicated folder setup simply to make you happy... :(
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zirk

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Re: Network help needed :(
« Reply #10 on: 01 August 2018, 16:24:13 »

That's what I've been trying to do !!! and until now, with very little success, however ........   :)

Found on one web site a tiny comment about MS networking not allowing root access to discs ... so tried something ...   I have multiple discs in my system, only one of which has any operating system files on it .. the rest are pure data: music, photos, films, documents and some backups ..

So my disk D which only contains music .. instead of sharing the whole drive, I make a new folder labelled "Drive D" and copy everything into it, then share that folder ... and suddenly it works .. network access in both directions, do the same for ALL the drives on all 3 devices ..ie .. make a pseudo drive in a folder for what I want to share, and it all works as it used to ... all 3 devices see all shares ... just like a network should !!

It would appear that 1803 simply stops root access to a disk, but doesn't tell you ... :(

Thank you MS .... really grateful I've wasted so many hours, and have now got a cluttered, complicated folder setup simply to make you happy... :(
If that works for you thats great,   :) just make sure (depending how you've set up sharing the Folder) that you have not left yourself open on any device that logs into another Network away from yours, ie, Work WiFi or Cafe HotSpot.  ;)
« Last Edit: 01 August 2018, 16:28:25 by zirk »
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Entwood

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Re: Network help needed :(
« Reply #11 on: 01 August 2018, 18:07:06 »

That's what I've been trying to do !!! and until now, with very little success, however ........   :)

Found on one web site a tiny comment about MS networking not allowing root access to discs ... so tried something ...   I have multiple discs in my system, only one of which has any operating system files on it .. the rest are pure data: music, photos, films, documents and some backups ..

So my disk D which only contains music .. instead of sharing the whole drive, I make a new folder labelled "Drive D" and copy everything into it, then share that folder ... and suddenly it works .. network access in both directions, do the same for ALL the drives on all 3 devices ..ie .. make a pseudo drive in a folder for what I want to share, and it all works as it used to ... all 3 devices see all shares ... just like a network should !!

It would appear that 1803 simply stops root access to a disk, but doesn't tell you ... :(

Thank you MS .... really grateful I've wasted so many hours, and have now got a cluttered, complicated folder setup simply to make you happy... :(
If that works for you thats great,   :) just make sure (depending how you've set up sharing the Folder) that you have not left yourself open on any device that logs into another Network away from yours, ie, Work WiFi or Cafe HotSpot.  ;)

Network set up as "Private" only .. share permissions for User (me) only .. :)
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TheBoy

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Re: Network help needed :(
« Reply #12 on: 01 August 2018, 18:16:35 »

Best practice from day 1 of Workgroup networking has always been sharing at the folder level, not the drive level.  The drive roots have unique permissions that can cause issues if you break around with them.

But sorted now, and hopefully you've removed all trace of that bad abortion called Homegroup. What were MS smoking when they came up with that stupid idea. Workgroups work so much better (and securely if done right).


Be aware, though, much malware knows home users are thick (run with admin rights, have poorly set up networking, disable UAC, leaves SMB1 and SMB2 enabled, poorly patched etc) so you will be prime candidate to corrupt the lot...   ...and there is an awful lot of share seeking virii/malware.

So keep the shares secured, absolutely definitely completely do not run as an admin user ever, and do not lower the UAC level.  If you choose to ignore any of these, shoot yourself in front of your family ;)
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Entwood

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Re: Network help needed :(
« Reply #13 on: 01 August 2018, 19:07:35 »

Best practice from day 1 of Workgroup networking has always been sharing at the folder level, not the drive level.  The drive roots have unique permissions that can cause issues if you break around with them.

But sorted now, and hopefully you've removed all trace of that bad abortion called Homegroup. What were MS smoking when they came up with that stupid idea. Workgroups work so much better (and securely if done right).


Be aware, though, much malware knows home users are thick (run with admin rights, have poorly set up networking, disable UAC, leaves SMB1 and SMB2 enabled, poorly patched etc) so you will be prime candidate to corrupt the lot...   ...and there is an awful lot of share seeking virii/malware.

So keep the shares secured, absolutely definitely completely do not run as an admin user ever, and do not lower the UAC level.  If you choose to ignore any of these, shoot yourself in front of your family ;)

That's the only bit not done ... as I don't know owt about SMB let alone the difference between 1 and 2 !!  Hints would be helpful !!  :)

Thanks for the input though .. you have probably forgotten more about networking than I ever knew  :)
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Re: Network help needed :(
« Reply #14 on: 02 August 2018, 00:50:37 »

Infuriating isn't it  >:(
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