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Author Topic: Strange result  (Read 1813 times)

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Shackeng

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Strange result
« on: 27 January 2018, 15:51:47 »

As mentioned I got a replacement ignition switch for the 3.2, a genuine OE Febi part with the GM logo still visible. the first thing I noticed when I reconnected the battery after fitting the switch was that the radio came straight on, with ignition off, and I did not need to recode the radio??? The battery had been disconnected for a week. I also got a warning tone when the door was opened with key removed although there was nothing switched on or indicators selected. I now have to physically switch the radio off when exiting the car, as it does not go off with the ignition. As a result, I refitted the old switch again to see if it was the same, and it is, radio remains on with key removed unless switched off, although the warning sound has gone with the door open.
Secondly I was unable to synch either key to the new switch, and I am also unable to synch them back to the old switch, now back in. ??? ??? ???
I also have a spanner light on (haven't checked the codes) but I suspect it didn't like me messing with the switch.
Any ideas?
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Re: Strange result
« Reply #1 on: 27 January 2018, 18:18:51 »

No codes to enter if its NCDC201x series of radio.

As for radio going on and off with ignition, I think there is a setting, I'd have to check.  There certainly was a setting on old ccr600 type radio.
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Shackeng

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Re: Strange result
« Reply #2 on: 27 January 2018, 18:47:14 »

What about the lack of synch? Not sure of the radio model, I will check. Its 2001 3.2 Elite, and the audio manual is massive. (I've only glanced at it in the 7 years I've owned it as there is just too much 'stuff'.) :-[
« Last Edit: 27 January 2018, 18:49:22 by Shackeng »
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Re: Strange result
« Reply #3 on: 27 January 2018, 18:59:31 »

You have only changed the mechanical switch (presumably). So nothing to sync.
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Re: Strange result
« Reply #4 on: 27 January 2018, 22:07:28 »

No, the electrical switch, hence febi with gm logo. :y
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Enceladus

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Re: Strange result
« Reply #5 on: 28 January 2018, 02:49:03 »

The warning buzzer is supposed to sound when the the key is still in the barrel and you open the drivers door. A warning to remember to remove the key. Yours was sounding with the key removed and the door open. So the door open detection is working but the key in ignition detection has something wrong with it, however that's done? Is there something stuck or missing on the barrel? Perhaps a bad connection or dirt or maybe a fault in the Febi switch.

On most of the radios if the power has been disconnected then the radio will default back to ignition key control.
So yours switching on automatically would seem to fact the facts. I wonder if the failure to auto off is related to the key detect issue.
To check/change the status.
  • Ignition on
    Turn off radio
    Press and hold preset buttons 1 & 3
    Continue to press and switch radio on
    Continue to press and 'IGN ON' or similar should appear in the display
    Continue to hold and release the buttons when you hear a beep
    The display should change to 'IGN OFF' or similar
    Repeat the procedure to revert to 'IGN ON'
If the radio has had it's power disconnected but doesn't ask for the code it means that the code protection was disabled.
To switch it on again I think you have to follow the usual steps to enter the code. IE ignition on, radio off, press and hold AS button etc.
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TheBoy

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Re: Strange result
« Reply #6 on: 28 January 2018, 10:23:13 »

No, the electrical switch, hence febi with gm logo. :y
The ignition barrel, with the electrical connector at end?

Not the immobiliser ECU (the flat box with the circular ring around the ignition barrel)? Or key fob or its associated alarm ecu at base of A pillar?


If you haven't touched immobiliser or alarm/fob, as long as you are using your original transponders and fob, there is nothing to sync.
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Re: Strange result
« Reply #7 on: 28 January 2018, 10:24:55 »

The warning buzzer is supposed to sound when the the key is still in the barrel and you open the drivers door. A warning to remember to remove the key. Yours was sounding with the key removed and the door open. So the door open detection is working but the key in ignition detection has something wrong with it, however that's done? Is there something stuck or missing on the barrel? Perhaps a bad connection or dirt or maybe a fault in the Febi switch.

On most of the radios if the power has been disconnected then the radio will default back to ignition key control.
So yours switching on automatically would seem to fact the facts. I wonder if the failure to auto off is related to the key detect issue.
To check/change the status.
  • Ignition on
    Turn off radio
    Press and hold preset buttons 1 & 3
    Continue to press and switch radio on
    Continue to press and 'IGN ON' or similar should appear in the display
    Continue to hold and release the buttons when you hear a beep
    The display should change to 'IGN OFF' or similar
    Repeat the procedure to revert to 'IGN ON'
If the radio has had it's power disconnected but doesn't ask for the code it means that the code protection was disabled.
To switch it on again I think you have to follow the usual steps to enter the code. IE ignition on, radio off, press and hold AS button etc.
OPs radio is likely to be NCDR201x series, thus above isn't relevant (that's for the CCR2006, CDR 2005 etc).  The NCDR series is very different :y
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Shackeng

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Re: Strange result
« Reply #8 on: 28 January 2018, 11:18:55 »

No, the electrical switch, hence febi with gm logo. :y
The ignition barrel, with the electrical connector at end?

Not the immobiliser ECU (the flat box with the circular ring around the ignition barrel)? Or key fob or its associated alarm ecu at base of A pillar?


If you haven't touched immobiliser or alarm/fob, as long as you are using your original transponders and fob, there is nothing to sync.

Not the mechanical section with sliders and springs. The middle electrical starter ignition switch as here:https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/6-Port-Febi-Ignition-Starter-Key-Switch-Genuine-OE-Quality-Replacement/351223049854?_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIM.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D49925%26meid%3D524bf7363fe04fa9bbb5bebcf7a3abf5%26pid%3D100623%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D192286058696%26itm%3D351223049854&_trksid=p2047675.c100623.m-1
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Shackeng

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Re: Strange result
« Reply #9 on: 28 January 2018, 11:23:46 »

The warning buzzer is supposed to sound when the the key is still in the barrel and you open the drivers door. A warning to remember to remove the key. Yours was sounding with the key removed and the door open. So the door open detection is working but the key in ignition detection has something wrong with it, however that's done? Is there something stuck or missing on the barrel? Perhaps a bad connection or dirt or maybe a fault in the Febi switch.

On most of the radios if the power has been disconnected then the radio will default back to ignition key control.
So yours switching on automatically would seem to fact the facts. I wonder if the failure to auto off is related to the key detect issue.
To check/change the status.
  • Ignition on
    Turn off radio
    Press and hold preset buttons 1 & 3
    Continue to press and switch radio on
    Continue to press and 'IGN ON' or similar should appear in the display
    Continue to hold and release the buttons when you hear a beep
    The display should change to 'IGN OFF' or similar
    Repeat the procedure to revert to 'IGN ON'
If the radio has had it's power disconnected but doesn't ask for the code it means that the code protection was disabled.
To switch it on again I think you have to follow the usual steps to enter the code. IE ignition on, radio off, press and hold AS button etc.
Thanks for all that, I will check. I'm not so worried about the lack of requirement for coding, or the requirement to switch off the radio manually, but I would like to resynch the key. As I said above the original switch GM#90 505 912, is now refitted. so according to Jaime the key should be synched, but it isn't, and won't.
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Re: Strange result
« Reply #10 on: 28 January 2018, 11:44:14 »

Radio on/off with ignition on NCDC radio

Tuner
Functions
Settings
Ensure Mode Retainment is selected
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Re: Strange result
« Reply #11 on: 28 January 2018, 11:46:37 »

No coding on that device. What’s not happening Shack?
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Re: Strange result
« Reply #12 on: 28 January 2018, 13:25:18 »

No coding on that device. What’s not happening Shack?
I was referring to the fact that as soon as I reconnected the battery, ignition key not in, before I got back in the car, the radio came straight on without a requirement for the radio code, or even to be switched on. :-\
It is an NCDC 2013. :y
« Last Edit: 28 January 2018, 13:27:55 by Shackeng »
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Enceladus

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Re: Strange result
« Reply #13 on: 28 January 2018, 13:32:16 »

I was referring to the fact that as soon as I reconnected the battery, ignition key not in, before I got back in the car, the radio came straight on without a requirement for the radio code, or even to be switched on. :-\
Sounds like another indication that the car sees a key in the ignition barrel. A reassembly error, something stuck or dropped and lost on the floor?
Was the original fault, whatever it was that prompted the switch replacement, fixed by the new Febi switch?
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Shackeng

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Re: Strange result
« Reply #14 on: 28 January 2018, 13:39:30 »

I was referring to the fact that as soon as I reconnected the battery, ignition key not in, before I got back in the car, the radio came straight on without a requirement for the radio code, or even to be switched on. :-\
Sounds like another indication that the car sees a key in the ignition barrel. A reassembly error, something stuck or dropped and lost on the floor?
Was the original fault, whatever it was that prompted the switch replacement, fixed by the new Febi switch?

The original fault was ocsnly, perhaps once in 20, the car failed to start on the key, with no indications of current draw, all battery and earth connections are good, with no evidence of overheating. As I had the same fault on my TD previously, I decided to change the switch, and got the result described in my OP, so replaced the old one, and now have the issues described. :y
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Re: Strange result
« Reply #15 on: 28 January 2018, 13:43:32 »

No coding on that device. What’s not happening Shack?
I was referring to the fact that as soon as I reconnected the battery, ignition key not in, before I got back in the car, the radio came straight on without a requirement for the radio code, or even to be switched on. :-\
It is an NCDC 2013. :y
So aside from the radio, everything is working perfectly?


The NCDC2013 doesn't have a security code in the traditional sense - its security is by the fact its paired to the display in the dash. So you have no code to enter. So worry not about the fact its not asking for a code, as it won't :y

Most glitches with NCDC2013 can be resolved by popping the radio out for an hour - sometimes its internal systems get in a strange state, particularly as they age.


Check the Mode Retainment setting I suggested 2 or 3 posts ago as well.


Lastly, the radio (along with other stuff) works off the "W Contact":

Key just put in, but left in off - W off
Key in position 1 or II - W on
Key moved from I or II to Off BUT KEY not removed - W on
Key out - W off

So make sure W contact working as expected.
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Re: Strange result
« Reply #16 on: 28 January 2018, 15:35:09 »

No coding on that device. What’s not happening Shack?
I was referring to the fact that as soon as I reconnected the battery, ignition key not in, before I got back in the car, the radio came straight on without a requirement for the radio code, or even to be switched on. :-\
It is an NCDC 2013. :y
So aside from the radio, everything is working perfectly?


The NCDC2013 doesn't have a security code in the traditional sense - its security is by the fact its paired to the display in the dash. So you have no code to enter. So worry not about the fact its not asking for a code, as it won't :y

Most glitches with NCDC2013 can be resolved by popping the radio out for an hour - sometimes its internal systems get in a strange state, particularly as they age.


Check the Mode Retainment setting I suggested 2 or 3 posts ago as well.


Lastly, the radio (along with other stuff) works off the "W Contact":

Key just put in, but left in off - W off
Key in position 1 or II - W on
Key moved from I or II to Off BUT KEY not removed - W on
Key out - W off

So make sure W contact working as expected.

Strange, as the radio has always asked for a code before when battery reconnected. hence my puzzlement. ???
As said, I am not concerned with the radio operation so much, but will try your procedure. I am concerned that neither key will synch with the original switch (or the new switch when tried), so remote locking etc. not working. Otherwise, yes, car starts and runs perfectly. ??? ??? ???
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Re: Strange result
« Reply #17 on: 28 January 2018, 17:08:10 »

An NCDC has never asked you for a code, as the only way to insert code into NCDC is via tech2.  Your old TD would have asked for a code, maybe this is where the confusion is.

So the fob isn't unlocking/locking car? Correct sequence is:
All doors closed (and remain closed), window open (for safety, in case you mess it up and somehow deadlock yourself inside)
Ign to II
Press either of the buttons several times on one of the fobs - the doors should lock and then unlock, signifying fob has been sync'd
Repeat last step for other fob(s)


Above only works if the fob has been programmed to the Alarm ECU previously via Tech2.
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Re: Strange result
« Reply #18 on: 28 January 2018, 22:39:08 »

An NCDC has never asked you for a code, as the only way to insert code into NCDC is via tech2.  Your old TD would have asked for a code, maybe this is where the confusion is.

So the fob isn't unlocking/locking car? Correct sequence is:
All doors closed (and remain closed), window open (for safety, in case you mess it up and somehow deadlock yourself inside)
Ign to II
Press either of the buttons several times on one of the fobs - the doors should lock and then unlock, signifying fob has been sync'd
Repeat last step for other fob(s)


Above only works if the fob has been programmed to the Alarm ECU previously via Tech2.

Not sure about the last sentence, as the key was synched OK to the currently fitted switch before.
I'll try that tomorrow, thanks. :y
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Re: Strange result
« Reply #19 on: 28 January 2018, 22:55:34 »

An NCDC has never asked you for a code, as the only way to insert code into NCDC is via tech2.  Your old TD would have asked for a code, maybe this is where the confusion is.

So the fob isn't unlocking/locking car? Correct sequence is:
All doors closed (and remain closed), window open (for safety, in case you mess it up and somehow deadlock yourself inside)
Ign to II
Press either of the buttons several times on one of the fobs - the doors should lock and then unlock, signifying fob has been sync'd
Repeat last step for other fob(s)


Above only works if the fob has been programmed to the Alarm ECU previously via Tech2.

Not sure about the last sentence, as the key was synched OK to the currently fitted switch before.
I'll try that tomorrow, thanks. :y
You are confusing me now :-\

My understanding is that the switch is 'dumb' - it doesn't synch with anything.
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Re: Strange result
« Reply #20 on: 28 January 2018, 22:57:09 »

Keys aren't synch'd to the ignition switch in any way, that's purely mechanical.

The fob part of the key is synced to the alarm module and the immobiliser chip is energised, read and confirmed as a valid chip by the immobiliser unit.

NCDC powering on without ignition after battery installation is common, I know for certain two of mine do it, the third one probably does as well but haven't had to swap the battery on that yet.

Re Spanner lamp - does it flash when you try and start the car? Also did both keys work (ie start the car) beforehand?
« Last Edit: 28 January 2018, 23:04:06 by VXL V6 »
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Re: Strange result
« Reply #21 on: 29 January 2018, 12:21:18 »

The ignition barrel has stayed popped in... When you turn it the barrel normally goes in a couple of mm. try working it back and forth.
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Re: Strange result
« Reply #22 on: 29 January 2018, 14:48:29 »

The ignition barrel has stayed popped in... When you turn it the barrel normally goes in a couple of mm. try working it back and forth.

I don't follow you here Paul. The keys are working fine to turn the ignition on and start the car, but neither of them will operate the door locks, so I assume it has something to do with the switch being changed and then refitted.

Battery on charge at present, so will have another go tomorrow, but pressing the fobs at position 11 did nothing when I tried earlier. :-\
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Re: Strange result
« Reply #23 on: 29 January 2018, 14:50:33 »

Keys aren't synch'd to the ignition switch in any way, that's purely mechanical.

The fob part of the key is synced to the alarm module and the immobiliser chip is energised, read and confirmed as a valid chip by the immobiliser unit.

NCDC powering on without ignition after battery installation is common, I know for certain two of mine do it, the third one probably does as well but haven't had to swap the battery on that yet.

Re Spanner lamp - does it flash when you try and start the car? Also did both keys work (ie start the car) beforehand?

I didn't notice, but will check when battery is charged. Both keys start the car OK. :y
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Re: Strange result
« Reply #24 on: 29 January 2018, 18:26:55 »

but neither of them will operate the door locks, so I assume it has something to do with the switch being changed and then refitted.
No. That's a symptom of battery being flat/disconnected for an extended period.

Follow resync procedure I gave a few posts ago.
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Re: Strange result
« Reply #25 on: 29 January 2018, 18:54:30 »

but neither of them will operate the door locks, so I assume it has something to do with the switch being changed and then refitted.
No. That's a symptom of battery being flat/disconnected for an extended period.

Follow resync procedure I gave a few posts ago.

Will do. :y
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Re: Strange result
« Reply #26 on: 01 February 2018, 19:21:14 »

Battery now charged, and keys and remote locking work as normal. What is puzzling is that the battery appeared to by charged OK when I tried the keys previously, and the engine started fine, car drove fine, but just the remote locking didn't work. Put the battery on charge for a day, and now the remote works normally. ??? ??? ???
I suspect that I may have too much quiescent discharge from the battery, what is the best way to test for this, apart from disconnecting the batt. and putting an ammeter in series? ??? :y
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Re: Strange result
« Reply #27 on: 01 February 2018, 21:00:23 »

A non-contact clamp meter with a Hall Effect sensor for DC is what you need:-

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ac-dc-clamp-meter/152887368588?hash=item2398cc1b8c:g:iZMAAOSwmSdaZ0OJ

Not cheap, but it will do DC current; the cheap ones only work on AC.

Ron.
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Re: Strange result
« Reply #28 on: 01 February 2018, 22:22:32 »

Hmmm, I've just remembered I bought one of these last year and haven't tried it yet. http://www.gunson.co.uk/product/77069
I'll give it a try this weekend. :y
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Re: Strange result
« Reply #29 on: 01 February 2018, 22:29:27 »

That is a good tool, excellent for checking individual fuseways, which really is all you need to locate unacceptable current drains more precicely than the one I suggested.
My one is OK for total current drain.

Ron.
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Re: Strange result
« Reply #30 on: 02 February 2018, 15:11:43 »

That is a good tool, excellent for checking individual fuseways, which really is all you need to locate unacceptable current drains more precicely than the one I suggested.
My one is OK for total current drain.

Ron.
:y :y :y
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Re: Strange result
« Reply #31 on: 02 February 2018, 16:05:53 »

When you remove the key does the barrel pop out about 5mm?

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Re: Strange result
« Reply #32 on: 02 February 2018, 16:33:55 »

That is a good tool, excellent for checking individual fuseways, which really is all you need to locate unacceptable current drains more precicely than the one I suggested.
My one is OK for total current drain.

Ron.


You can also get leads for your multi meter that plug into the fuse holder. Which are a bit cheaper if you're not using them much.
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Re: Strange result
« Reply #33 on: 02 February 2018, 16:46:18 »

I saw them some time ago, Nick, and I was going to mention them, but I have forgotten what they are called and where to find them!
I need to know so as to enter something on Ebay's search window - can you help, please?

Ron.
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Re: Strange result
« Reply #34 on: 02 February 2018, 17:38:06 »

When you remove the key does the barrel pop out about 5mm?
No, or yes. I'll check. :y
« Last Edit: 02 February 2018, 17:39:55 by Shackeng »
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Nick W

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Re: Strange result
« Reply #35 on: 02 February 2018, 18:49:26 »

I saw them some time ago, Nick, and I was going to mention them, but I have forgotten what they are called and where to find them!
I need to know so as to enter something on Ebay's search window - can you help, please?

Ron.


How about a LINK?
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Re: Strange result
« Reply #36 on: 02 February 2018, 18:55:12 »

That's why I didn't remember details about them, Nick - the price! FH!

Ron.
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Re: Strange result
« Reply #37 on: 02 February 2018, 19:01:51 »

When you remove the key does the barrel pop out about 5mm?
No, or yes. I'll check. :y
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Nick W

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Re: Strange result
« Reply #38 on: 02 February 2018, 19:40:47 »

That's why I didn't remember details about them, Nick - the price! FH!

Ron.


That's just the retail price. They're about a tenner from Amazon, which is about the same price as standard test leads.
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Re: Strange result
« Reply #39 on: 02 February 2018, 19:42:55 »

When I was working at the college, they would have kindly loaned me the parts to make up myself.....

Ron.
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Re: Strange result
« Reply #40 on: 04 February 2018, 11:27:07 »

Maplins are currently selling the units for £6.99, so I bought one for mini blade fuses to complete my set.
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Re: Strange result
« Reply #41 on: 04 February 2018, 12:56:17 »

Thanks Nick; do you have a catalogue number, please? Maplins' website usually argues with me!

Ron.
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Re: Strange result
« Reply #42 on: 04 February 2018, 14:30:44 »

Thanks Nick; do you have a catalogue number, please? Maplins' website usually argues with me!

Ron.


Like THIS and THIS
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Re: Strange result
« Reply #43 on: 04 February 2018, 16:08:28 »

That;s a better price, thanks!
They made reference to just the probes being available, but no details - do you know any more? I have multimeters already, so just the blade adaptor with leads to 4mm plugs would be perfect.

Ron.
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Re: Strange result
« Reply #44 on: 04 February 2018, 17:26:45 »

That;s a better price, thanks!
They made reference to just the probes being available, but no details - do you know any more? I have multimeters already, so just the blade adaptor with leads to 4mm plugs would be perfect.

Ron.


These?
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Re: Strange result
« Reply #45 on: 04 February 2018, 17:48:51 »

Just what I want, with only one slight drawback - no store within many miles has any stock, and won't permit ordering!  :(

Ron.
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Re: Strange result
« Reply #46 on: 04 February 2018, 17:52:43 »

When you remove the key does the barrel pop out about 5mm?

Sorry for delay.

No, but it is possible to push it in about 3mm with the key removed, and which then brings on the 'Key in lock, door open' warning.
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Re: Strange result
« Reply #47 on: 04 February 2018, 18:15:11 »

Its the "pushing in" bit that is the W contact. So when you turn key to off it stays in, put when you pull key out, the barrel pops out slightly, disconnecting W contact from 12v
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Re: Strange result
« Reply #48 on: 04 February 2018, 22:27:21 »

It seems to work normally to me. The mechanical section was not the problem. :y
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