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Author Topic: Plumbing/DHW question.  (Read 672 times)

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Andy B

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Re: Plumbing/DHW question.
« Reply #30 on: 11 April 2018, 12:42:57 »

I'd not use push fit connectors  .... however my kitchen was fitted with them about 13 years ago & so far ....  :-X
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STEMO

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Re: Plumbing/DHW question.
« Reply #31 on: 11 April 2018, 12:47:53 »

Every new build I've seen has plastic push fit throughout, hot and cold. They are here to stay, like them or not. Our house had a new boiler and extra rads fitted about two years before we moved in. There are bits of plastic connected to copper everywhere, looks like a kid's been playing with a construction kit  ;D
One thing about plastic...you don't get pipe hammer.  ::)
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jimmy944

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Re: Plumbing/DHW question.
« Reply #32 on: 11 April 2018, 12:54:57 »


Plumber friends of mine would never use push-fit joints, and nor would I.  The simplicity and long term security of pre-soldered joints gives me no reason for even considering the 'amatuer' route.  The joy in seeing the solder show around a pre-soldered, or even plain metal coupling is so satisfying, and you know that will last. I have heard of cases where the push-fit joints have popped off due to various reasons, including a reaction to metal fittings.  Why risk it? ;)

Alternatively, why spend more time/effort (or cost if paying someone) to get no better result?

As above, plumbers will always extol the virtues of something that the average punter less likely to be able to do themselves. That's just common sense. Its no different to taking your car to a main dealer for a service, they will doubtless tell you at great length why you will get a superior service from them (at some multiple of the cost).

YZ250, I know the ones you mean! I binned the ones that came with mine and replaced them with JG Speedfit tails as the originals looked naff!

A further advantage to plastic, which is very relevant if you rent out a certain type of house, is that there is no value to the tennant in pulling your pipework out to sell for scrap  :-X
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Re: Plumbing/DHW question.
« Reply #33 on: 11 April 2018, 13:03:16 »

You don't need any great deal of head for a positive pressure pump and its generally easier to site the pump on the fllor by the cylinder anyway.

As for pumps, I personally (and from experience) would not advise on a Salamander as the seals fail after a few years and on most of their range, cant be replaced. Stuart Turner pumps are higher quality and far better serviced, plus shop around and they can be got for similar cash.

I had a Salamander 3Bar pump for about 5 years and this year it croaked, replaced with a Stuart Turner and its both quieter, more compact and easier to fit.

Oh yes, do it in copper with solder, not the crappy push fit as the temperature and pressure cycling is not got long term on the short cut fittings.

The salamander info is interesting, I hadn't come across many bad reports online (no more than any other brand).

Regarding the push fit, is there any actual basis for the assertion they don't last? The JG fittings carry a 25yr warranty against manufacturing and material defect. My personal (family) experience is a total of about 20yrs of use, 10yrs in parents' house (and counting), 5yrs then 4yrs in two of mine and no leaks in that time.

All the problems I've read about online have been down to poor installs. Namely:
- poorly fitted/missing pipe inserts
- failure to do up the locking rings on fittings
- copper burrs fouling o-rings due to not being cleaned correctly after cutting

As far as I can tell, copper gives only two advantages over plastic, namely:
- for a given outer diameter of pipe, you have a greater inner diameter for water to pass through.
- where space is tight, the fittings are significantly less bulky.

I know the "professionals" don't like pushfit, but then why would they, it turns piping a house from a skilled to a semi-skilled job, so they are bound to extol the virtues of their craft. Then again, around 30-40% of my entire renovation time on our latest house has been spent putting right what various professionals have thought was acceptable.

Personal experience sadly, when we first moved into this property I installed the showers (pre the Salamander pumps actually) and bashed it in with a load of push fit for convenience (the existing setup was so broke you turned on the shower, a trickle emerged from the shower head and ran down the shower hose/wall)..

They are all well and good IF you don't disturb them which may be fine for under floor installs etc. however, 10 years later and I had to do some work in the loft where I spotted three leaking push fits. Strip down showed the seals had gone hard and on consulting my cousin (plumber) I am told its a common issue but, they last well outside of any guarantee period and are quick, easy and low skilled to install.

End of the day, you cant beat a copper pipe with copper fittings giving a rigid install (properly supported).

The Salamander I had (an ESP100) suffered from the shaft seals leaking which appears to be standard as they age, this got into the motor and resulted in tripping of the ELCB but, you cant replace the seals (you can the actual casing seals but not the shaft seals).

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Re: Plumbing/DHW question.
« Reply #34 on: 11 April 2018, 17:16:18 »

Gentlemen (and lady), I am grateful for all of the caluable information. When I asked the question, I didn't know if it was a simple job or a pain to do, and it seems it could be either!
If I understand you correctly Kevin, the quick and dirty fix would be to put a pump in the outlet from the DHW cylinder in the airing cupboard (where there is also electrical power available, so no rewiring), and leave it at that?
The cold feed to all taps is direct mains.
As I said earlier, the shower fitment is simply push-fit hoses on the bath taps, so if the above is what you meant, would that be ok with my shower fitment?
I will eventually fit a more elegant shower fitting, but for domestic harmony in the shortest time span, I want to stop the moaning NOW!  ::)

Ron.
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Entwood

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Re: Plumbing/DHW question.
« Reply #35 on: 11 April 2018, 17:50:25 »

Gentlemen (and lady), I am grateful for all of the caluable information. When I asked the question, I didn't know if it was a simple job or a pain to do, and it seems it could be either!
If I understand you correctly Kevin, the quick and dirty fix would be to put a pump in the outlet from the DHW cylinder in the airing cupboard (where there is also electrical power available, so no rewiring), and leave it at that?
The cold feed to all taps is direct mains.
As I said earlier, the shower fitment is simply push-fit hoses on the bath taps, so if the above is what you meant, would that be ok with my shower fitment?
I will eventually fit a more elegant shower fitting, but for domestic harmony in the shortest time span, I want to stop the moaning NOW!  ::)

Ron.

Instant solution - Buy bucket, punch holes in bottom, suspend from ceiling ....   :)
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Bigron

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Re: Plumbing/DHW question.
« Reply #36 on: 11 April 2018, 17:54:36 »

I expected a more elegant engineering solution from you than that, Nige!
What about temperature and flow-rate control?   :-\

Ron. :-\
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Bigron

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Re: Plumbing/DHW question.
« Reply #37 on: 11 April 2018, 17:58:05 »

Anyway, what do you mean, BUY a bucket? I've already got a rusty one in the garden suitably equipped with precision holes, and the rust stains might seem like a suntan!  :y 8)

Ron.
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Shackeng

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Re: Plumbing/DHW question.
« Reply #38 on: 11 April 2018, 18:00:10 »

I have had a Monsoon 3.0 Bar twin in/out for about 40 years and it works brilliantly, supplying two showers at full belt with no problem. Made by Stuart Turner I think, but quite pricey now. I have the same sort of setup as you.

Regarding push fittings, I owned some small rental properties a few years ago, where, to improve water provision for bathrooms and kitchens, it was sometimes necessary to think creatively, and I found that if good quality push fittings were used correctly, it allowed me to resolve issues that were otherwise insurmountable. In a recent extension to my own house, while I always prefer to use copper pipe, again, to allow some new radiator pipes to be hidden, it was necessary to use push fit.
When installing a water softener, to provide a non-softened tap in the kitchen at the rear of the house, I also used push fit to provide a single feed from the rising main in the downstairs cloakroom of my house up inside the soil pipe trunking, via two right angles, into and across the loft, down via the airing cupboard then connecting to copper for the rest of a boxed in run with other pipes. Without the use of push fit, this would have been impossible without serious internal disruption.
I moved my son's bathroom upstairs in his terraced house, again, almost impossible without serious problems.
I mention all these jobs as I have never, touching wood, had a problem with any of the fittings. :y
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Re: Plumbing/DHW question.
« Reply #39 on: 11 April 2018, 18:01:54 »

I expected a more elegant engineering solution from you than that, Nige!
What about temperature and flow-rate control?   :-\

Ron. :-\

Speed was the driver, but a little thought would inform you that ..

Temperature control ... simply done by regulating the temperature of the water placed in the bucket ...

Flow control ... regulated by the calibration of  the size and number of holes punched in the bucket .. hence the requirement to use a new bucket and NOT an un-calibrated rusty one ....

:)
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Bigron

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Re: Plumbing/DHW question.
« Reply #40 on: 11 April 2018, 19:16:50 »

You are nearly as daft as I am, Mr. Riley!  :y 8) ;D

Ron.
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Bigron

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Re: Plumbing/DHW question.
« Reply #41 on: 11 April 2018, 19:22:13 »

I have had a Monsoon 3.0 Bar twin in/out for about 40 years and it works brilliantly, supplying two showers at full belt with no problem. Made by Stuart Turner I think, but quite pricey now. I have the same sort of setup as you.

Regarding push fittings, I owned some small rental properties a few years ago, where, to improve water provision for bathrooms and kitchens, it was sometimes necessary to think creatively, and I found that if good quality push fittings were used correctly, it allowed me to resolve issues that were otherwise insurmountable. In a recent extension to my own house, while I always prefer to use copper pipe, again, to allow some new radiator pipes to be hidden, it was necessary to use push fit.
When installing a water softener, to provide a non-softened tap in the kitchen at the rear of the house, I also used push fit to provide a single feed from the rising main in the downstairs cloakroom of my house up inside the soil pipe trunking, via two right angles, into and across the loft, down via the airing cupboard then connecting to copper for the rest of a boxed in run with other pipes. Without the use of push fit, this would have been impossible without serious internal disruption.
I moved my son's bathroom upstairs in his terraced house, again, almost impossible without serious problems.
I mention all these jobs as I have never, touching wood, had a problem with any of the fittings. :y

Thanks Shackeng. I'm not afraid of copper, either yorkshire or compression, having used both in the past, even if for only simple jobs, but I'm assuming that, as in all things, quality fitttings rather than cheap crap are required?
Just for now, I will adopt Nige's solution with my rusty bucket, but I will definitely "go posh" as soon as I can.....

Ron.
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