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Author Topic: atp  (Read 8479 times)

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Webby the Bear

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atp
« on: 26 November 2018, 18:31:02 »

evening guys. one hopes you’re all well.

I am going to be ordering the front arms, front arb links and front track rods package from atp. or apt or whatever they’re called. did I hear someone on here saying that their deliveries are shite? When I last ordered stuff they were pretty good...
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Re: atp
« Reply #1 on: 26 November 2018, 18:51:44 »

I bought their wishbones, drop link and track rod kit over a year ago and have no complaints regarding delivery, price or quality, if that helps?

Ron.
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Re: atp
« Reply #2 on: 26 November 2018, 19:21:50 »

never had a problem  . . .   can't say you will get that reply from TB though  ::)
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Re: atp
« Reply #3 on: 26 November 2018, 19:35:59 »

I've used them for 10 years on all my Omegas, and never had cause to complain. And so cheap - you can pay over £100 for one wishbone elsewhere
!
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Re: atp
« Reply #4 on: 26 November 2018, 19:45:13 »

What was tb’s problem?
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Re: atp
« Reply #5 on: 26 November 2018, 19:56:58 »

What was tb’s problem?
His address brings out widespread disease in customer service centres :D

They can be a bit lacksadaisy in keeping you updated, but if you buy through Ebay, they seem to be a bit more reliable wrt delivery times :y
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Re: atp
« Reply #6 on: 26 November 2018, 20:41:23 »

“Do u remember that weirdo in brackers. Yeah he wants another set of brake pads” 😂😂😂
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Re: atp
« Reply #7 on: 26 November 2018, 21:44:29 »

“Do u remember that weirdo in brackers. Yeah he wants another set of brake pads” 😂😂😂
He orders pads and discs by the score.
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Re: atp
« Reply #8 on: 26 November 2018, 22:38:52 »

What was tb’s problem?

He lives in a cold, rainy, insignificant speck in the midlands somewhere, but darkly thinks the whole of the UK is like it!  ;D
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Re: atp
« Reply #9 on: 26 November 2018, 22:47:15 »

What was tb’s problem?


Suppliers are allergic to him.  ;D
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Re: atp
« Reply #10 on: 26 November 2018, 22:52:49 »

I also had terrible problems getting them to deliver what I had ordered and paid for. Customer service was just as bad as CP4L.
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Re: atp
« Reply #11 on: 27 November 2018, 01:20:39 »

I ordered similar from ATP only one front arm was delivered &  had obviously been crudely taped back up in the bag & rejected by somebody else  >:(
I wasn`t happy with the the arm I did get , presumably why somebody else rejected it.
 
At the time ECP was supplying Lemforder parts, which were miles better in build quality.  :y
So I bought all I needed from them in the end.
Although I don`t think TB is a lemforder fanboy & might dispute the above statement
I paid via Paypal for the ATP order & filed a dispute with Ebay for a refund.
I really think you need to see what you`re buying over a counter Webby, anyway that`s what I prefer these days.
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Re: atp
« Reply #12 on: 27 November 2018, 07:31:46 »

 I not had any problems with the multiple orders I have done from ATP
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Re: atp
« Reply #13 on: 27 November 2018, 07:49:36 »

I ordered similar from ATP only one front arm was delivered &  had obviously been crudely taped back up in the bag & rejected by somebody else  >:(
I wasn`t happy with the the arm I did get , presumably why somebody else rejected it.
 
At the time ECP was supplying Lemforder parts, which were miles better in build quality.  :y
So I bought all I needed from them in the end.
Although I don`t think TB is a lemforder fanboy & might dispute the above statement
I paid via Paypal for the ATP order & filed a dispute with Ebay for a refund.
I really think you need to see what you`re buying over a counter Webby, anyway that`s what I prefer these days.
Your description sounds like the sort of crap Yodel specialises in...

The language barrier and the fact that potentially 3+ shippers are involved in getting stuff from Germany to the UK explain why there are occasionally issues with both the customer service and the delivery aspects.

Try ringing your local motor factors and complain, in Greek, that the item you ordered three weeks ago has just arrived wrapped in gaffer tape because Hermes doesn't care that the collection driver dropped it into a puddle and see how far you get.  ::)
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Re: atp
« Reply #14 on: 27 November 2018, 13:06:28 »

I ordered similar from ATP only one front arm was delivered &  had obviously been crudely taped back up in the bag & rejected by somebody else  >:(
I wasn`t happy with the the arm I did get , presumably why somebody else rejected it.
 
At the time ECP was supplying Lemforder parts, which were miles better in build quality.  :y
So I bought all I needed from them in the end.
Although I don`t think TB is a lemforder fanboy & might dispute the above statement
I paid via Paypal for the ATP order & filed a dispute with Ebay for a refund.
I really think you need to see what you`re buying over a counter Webby, anyway that`s what I prefer these days.
Your description sounds like the sort of crap Yodel specialises in...

The language barrier and the fact that potentially 3+ shippers are involved in getting stuff from Germany to the UK explain why there are occasionally issues with both the customer service and the delivery aspects.

Try ringing your local motor factors and complain, in Greek, that the item you ordered three weeks ago has just arrived wrapped in gaffer tape because Hermes doesn't care that the collection driver dropped it into a puddle and see how far you get.  ::)

Don`t get me started about the courier muppets from HELL    >:( >:(  ;D
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Re: atp
« Reply #15 on: 27 November 2018, 13:13:29 »

It's a good job TB has no time* to read these posts about him having problems with deliveries . or you'd all be for the cull list  :-X
*Now he's driving a corsa at or bellow speed limits ,his commute time is considerably extended   ;D
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Re: atp
« Reply #16 on: 27 November 2018, 17:11:33 »

What was tb’s problem?
The quality is shiter than shite.  Think of the nastiest set of Omega wishbones you've come across, then sink a bit lower.  The TREs (if you buy the kit) are equally awful.  I certainly wouldn't allow them on my car. I'd rather have some non descript Chinese monkey metal.

That's, of course, if they ever turn up.  And they are impossible to deal with when the shite doesn't turn up.
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Re: atp
« Reply #17 on: 27 November 2018, 17:18:02 »

but if you buy through Ebay, they seem to be a bit more reliable wrt delivery times :y
Nope, they are every bit as crap when buying through egay.  And they wait the maximum amount of time on egay's resolution system before replying, with a stall reply, so you have to keep going round in circles, waiting 8 days each time.


Last time I went through this particular nightmare, they couldn't give me a tracking number, yet on the last day before you can get egay in intervene claimed DHL had lost it.  Strangely, having got one of my DHL contacts to check it, DHL never picked anything up from ATP (or anywhere else that couldn't be accounted for) destined for me.

So, I know that they are liars that sell substandard junk.
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Re: atp
« Reply #18 on: 27 November 2018, 17:20:03 »

At the time ECP was supplying Lemforder parts, which were miles better in build quality.  :y
So I bought all I needed from them in the end.
Although I don`t think TB is a lemforder fanboy & might dispute the above statement
Lemforder, whilst not the same quality on these items as they once were, are a good enough replacement.  I have seen ECP try to shift cheap wishbones as Lemforder in the past, but that seems to have improved a bit since they were taken over a few years back.
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Re: atp
« Reply #19 on: 27 November 2018, 17:20:57 »

It's a good job TB has no time* to read these posts about him having problems with deliveries . or you'd all be for the cull list  :-X
*Now he's driving a corsa at or bellow speed limits ,his commute time is considerably extended   ;D
Don't diss the might Corsa, complete with bright red inserts in the dash.
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Re: atp
« Reply #20 on: 27 November 2018, 17:59:23 »

It's a good job TB has no time* to read these posts about him having problems with deliveries . or you'd all be for the cull list  :-X
*Now he's driving a corsa at or bellow speed limits ,his commute time is considerably extended   ;D
Don't diss the might Corsa, complete with bright red inserts in the dash.
one will definitely be the low oil pressure warning light  :y
the other is probably the battery light /alternator failing  :-\
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Re: atp
« Reply #21 on: 27 November 2018, 20:30:30 »

Have they significantly gone down in standard then?

Last time WBs lasted 5 years. TREs lasted 6 years and drop links still on from years ago!!!
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Re: atp
« Reply #22 on: 27 November 2018, 21:39:20 »

Conflicting views, Webby! As I said earlier, I am happy with my ATP wishbone kit, which Serek fitted for me a year ago and still fine. Perhaps you could ask Serek what he thought of the quality of the kit?

Ron.
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Re: atp
« Reply #23 on: 27 November 2018, 22:08:33 »

Do they fit? Check.
Do they work? Check.
Are they cheap? Check.

For less than £100 for wishbones/droplinks/track rods, what more do you want/need ::)
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Re: atp
« Reply #24 on: 27 November 2018, 22:26:51 »

Do they fit? Check.
Do they work? Check.
Are they cheap? Check.

For less than £100 for wishbones/droplinks/track rods, what more do you want/need ::)

Do they come with a free baseball cap as TB needs one to go with his Corsa. :P
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Re: atp
« Reply #25 on: 27 November 2018, 22:56:41 »

Do they fit? Check.
Do they work? Check.
Are they cheap? Check.

For less than £100 for wishbones/droplinks/track rods, what more do you want/need ::)

Do they come with a free baseball cap as TB needs one to go with his Corsa. :P

And probably an oil pressure switch  🤐
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Re: atp
« Reply #26 on: 28 November 2018, 11:27:40 »

Do they fit? Check.
Do they work? Check.
Are they cheap? Check.

For less than £100 for wishbones/droplinks/track rods, what more do you want/need ::)

Do they come with a free baseball cap as TB needs one to go with his Corsa. :P
Nowt wrong with a baseball cap , I wear one most of the time, and have a baseball bat ,just saving up for a baseball now  :)
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Re: atp
« Reply #27 on: 28 November 2018, 17:36:44 »

Do they fit? Check.
Do they work? Check.
Are they cheap? Check.

For less than £100 for wishbones/droplinks/track rods, what more do you want/need ::)

Do they come with a free baseball cap as TB needs one to go with his Corsa. :P
Nowt wrong with a baseball cap , I wear one most of the time, and have a baseball bat ,just saving up for a baseball now  :)
Protection? ;)
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Re: atp
« Reply #28 on: 28 November 2018, 17:46:23 »

Do they fit? Check.
Do they work? Check.
Are they cheap? Check.

For less than £100 for wishbones/droplinks/track rods, what more do you want/need ::)

Do they come with a free baseball cap as TB needs one to go with his Corsa. :P
Nowt wrong with a baseball cap , I wear one most of the time, and have a baseball bat ,just saving up for a baseball now  :)
Protection? ;)
Yes, the baseball CAP protects my head from getting cold and keeps the sun out my eyes  :y
the baseball bat protects my car from thieving scum bags  ;)
anti theft device clicky
obviously, when i have more money, i will buy a ball too  ;D
if you have a wooden baseball bat, make sure you have a baseball too, or it could be considered an offensive weapon apparently  :P
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Re: atp
« Reply #29 on: 28 November 2018, 18:11:05 »

Do they fit? Check.
Do they work? Check.
Are they cheap? Check.

For less than £100 for wishbones/droplinks/track rods, what more do you want/need ::)
The single most expensive part is the geometry adjustments after.  So if they only last the warranty period (if you're lucky), it still makes it the expensive option.

As with many things, the cheapest often works out far from the cheapest.
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Re: atp
« Reply #30 on: 28 November 2018, 18:46:59 »

Do they fit? Check.
Do they work? Check.
Are they cheap? Check.

For less than £100 for wishbones/droplinks/track rods, what more do you want/need ::)

Do they come with a free baseball cap as TB needs one to go with his Corsa. :P
Nowt wrong with a baseball cap , I wear one most of the time, and have a baseball bat ,just saving up for a baseball now  :)
Protection? ;)
Yes, the baseball CAP protects my head from getting cold and keeps the sun out my eyes  :y
the baseball bat protects my car from thieving scum bags  ;)
anti theft device clicky
obviously, when i have more money, i will buy a ball too  ;D
if you have a wooden baseball bat, make sure you have a baseball too, or it could be considered an offensive weapon apparently  :P

That looks like a meaty snooker cue extension.  ;)
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Re: atp
« Reply #31 on: 28 November 2018, 18:57:46 »

Yes, the baseball CAP protects my head from getting cold and keeps the sun out my eyes  :y
the baseball bat protects my car from thieving scum bags  ;)
anti theft device clicky
obviously, when i have more money, i will buy a ball too  ;D
if you have a wooden baseball bat, make sure you have a baseball too, or it could be considered an offensive weapon apparently  :P




So leave the baseball bat at home, and keep a 6 cell Maglite in the car. It doesn't compare well to modern AA LED torch, but it's a bloody good club. That lights up :y
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Re: atp
« Reply #32 on: 28 November 2018, 18:58:04 »

Found a short video clip I captured at the time, I`ve just uploaded to YT

I passed the part to our mechanical engineers at work for their assessment
After the laughter died down a bit, the boogers tried to throw it in scrap bin  ;D

As I mentioned earlier,  I only ever received one wishbone.

  https://youtu.be/-t-yVMHu_IA
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Re: atp
« Reply #33 on: 28 November 2018, 19:13:17 »

It only holds the wheel on a 1600kg 150 MPH car
what could possibly go wrong  ;D
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Re: atp
« Reply #34 on: 28 November 2018, 21:05:34 »

Do they fit? Check.
Do they work? Check.
Are they cheap? Check.

For less than £100 for wishbones/droplinks/track rods, what more do you want/need ::)
The single most expensive part is the geometry adjustments after.  So if they only last the warranty period (if you're lucky), it still makes it the expensive option.

£64 for full geometry setting on a Hunter machine at Tyre-Smart in Witham - with OOF discount, so not that dear, TB.

Ron.

As with many things, the cheapest often works out far from the cheapest.
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Re: atp
« Reply #35 on: 28 November 2018, 23:12:52 »

Geometry should be checked every 20k or so... Can therefore be considered a service item. Like the wishbones :-X
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Re: atp
« Reply #36 on: 29 November 2018, 00:58:08 »

That will be every five years for me, then!

Ron.
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Re: atp
« Reply #37 on: 29 November 2018, 07:31:57 »

I have an invoice that came with the car showing that a pair of wishbones were purchased for it-make not specified-in 2010 at a cost of £25 each.Assuming that these are the ones still fitted then all that's been done was the fitting of a balljoint on one side a few years ago for the M.o.T.
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Re: atp
« Reply #38 on: 29 November 2018, 18:00:23 »

Geometry should be checked every 20k or so... Can therefore be considered a service item. Like the wishbones :-X
Mine gets checked every 4 or 5 years, usually when I've replaced the £20 bushes in them.  Not using crap suspension/steering parts means I'm never changing bits, or paying £65 alignment every year.  By sticking to decent quality parts, my suspension is not an annual service item ;)

As said, cheap ain't always the cheap option.  You're paying £100 in parts and £65 in setup annually. I'm paying £40 in parts and £65 setup every 4yrs...
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Re: atp
« Reply #39 on: 29 November 2018, 18:26:16 »

I just change my car every 4 years.  :)
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Re: atp
« Reply #40 on: 29 November 2018, 19:29:15 »

Confused bear... where r we getting £100 in parts annually from?

Mine were on there for ages before I changed them.
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Re: atp
« Reply #41 on: 29 November 2018, 19:39:53 »

Confused bear... where r we getting £100 in parts annually from?

Mine were on there for ages before I changed them.
DG ;)

Webby - given your driving style, you probably let them get pretty bad before changing them, ie in the realms of MOT fail, rather than the impact to handling.
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Re: atp
« Reply #42 on: 29 November 2018, 19:41:31 »

And given the fact I'm now a reformed character, and thus less hard on suspension, I expect mine to last a gazillion years ;D
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Re: atp
« Reply #43 on: 29 November 2018, 19:45:12 »

Yeah absolutely mate. Plus of course driving hard is also going to make them work harder irrespective of quality.

What have you found that’s wrong with the ATP bones? When mine go I feel a little wandering at the front. And how long did it take for them to get shagged?
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Re: atp
« Reply #44 on: 29 November 2018, 20:15:02 »

About half an hour if he was in full on hooligan mode.  :y  ;D
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Re: atp
« Reply #45 on: 29 November 2018, 20:35:37 »

Yeah absolutely mate. Plus of course driving hard is also going to make them work harder irrespective of quality.

What have you found that’s wrong with the ATP bones? When mine go I feel a little wandering at the front. And how long did it take for them to get shagged?
Depends entirely on driving style and vehicle use/storage. in 180k I changed mine four times... 1x Delphi shit that lasted a week, 1x Firstline that replaced them, and the rest with ATP supplied parts. The ATP sets were polybushed and I don't count swapping out a set for experimental reasons. The one I snapped was a Firstline one and it failed after 8k miles of experimentation.

The original suspension will need replacing somewhere between 80 and 120k... this is pretty universal across all cars and stems from building cars to meet fleet manager requirements/sell more new cars.

A little wandering at the front is probably worn bushes... you could simply change these, but then you'll be doing the ball joints and then the shocks...

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Re: atp
« Reply #46 on: 29 November 2018, 23:17:03 »

Confused bear... where r we getting £100 in parts annually from?

Mine were on there for ages before I changed them.


From people who can break rocks. Although the Omega suspension would have been much less susceptible to poor alignment if the struts were rigidly aligned to the hub carriers.
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Re: atp
« Reply #47 on: 30 November 2018, 11:47:49 »

Yeah absolutely mate. Plus of course driving hard is also going to make them work harder irrespective of quality.

What have you found that’s wrong with the ATP bones? When mine go I feel a little wandering at the front. And how long did it take for them to get shagged?
I'm assuming you cut the front bush out an poly it before fitting, so its the rear bush that goes. That gives a sensation of the wheel feeling like its going to fall in under itself when getting fairly shagged. I try to change mine at the first sign that its lost its planted feeling.

Agreed, diving it harder is likely to put additional strains on the bushes.

But my main complaint of the ATP wishbones, just by looking at them, they are absolute piss poor quality, both in the metal construction and welding (and lack of), and in the quality of the bushings.  No wonder DG has had some shear.
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Re: atp
« Reply #48 on: 30 November 2018, 12:01:11 »

you could simply change these, but then you'll be doing the ball joints and then the shocks...
Again, I disagree about the balljoints.  I reckon I've had 20yrs worth of Omegas - not had them for 20years, but had significant periods where I've had 2, or even 3) - and only ever had to change 1 balljoint (well, 2, because I always do stuff in pairs, obviously) on my "long term" cars, because they always had GM wishbones.  That's why I refurb them, because it makes complete financial sense, as well as reduces the amount of time my decrepit old bones have to lay on cold driveways underneath cars.

In fact the only reason the old Silver Bullet and TBE weren't/aren't on their original wishbones is for 2 reasons....

1) in the early days of my Omega ownership, GM wishbones were stupidly, dirty cheap on TC, so I replaced the ones on the Bullet when the bushes first failed at about 5yrs old.

2) chrisgixer and I tend to pre-refurb the spares we have, so just end up popping on a refurbed set, and then refurb the ones that come off at a later date.  I think TBE is currently running on the wishbones that once lived on the Silver Bullet, and bought on TC in 2003.  A bit Triggers Broom, as been poly bushed front (and rear for a while before deciding that was a bad idea), have had a single set of rear bushes replaced, and these are the ones I think that have had new balljoints.
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Re: atp
« Reply #49 on: 30 November 2018, 12:28:30 »

No wonder DG has had some shear.

The ONE that failed was a Firstline one and had previously been rebushed... Poly rear experiments killed it. Doubt very much that a genuine one would have faired much different in that test...
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Re: atp
« Reply #50 on: 30 November 2018, 13:16:11 »

No wonder DG has had some shear.

The ONE that failed was a Firstline one and had previously been rebushed... Poly rear experiments killed it. Doubt very much that a genuine one would have faired much different in that test...
Ah, OK.

Remember my genuine ones had rear polys in for a while (few months), and that the genuine ones are better quality, both in the metal and the welding.

That said, rear poly doesn't give the right required movement, as we've both found out, and I was worried about the stresses, which is why I went back to GM bushes.


So while a Gm wishbone might have lasted longer than the Firstline, it probably would have still failed at some point...   ...although in my particular case, the poly started to fail (tear/split) before the wishbone failed...  ...which led to really weird handling ;D
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Re: atp
« Reply #51 on: 30 November 2018, 13:41:26 »

It does that :D A couple of attempts did not make it to the end of Chrisgixers cul de sac :o ;D
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Re: atp
« Reply #52 on: 01 December 2018, 10:32:26 »

It does that :D A couple of attempts did not make it to the end of Chrisgixers cul de sac :o ;D
Yeah, I remember.  My attempt was bloody fantastic for about 2 weeks, everything ultra precise with the car, so I wanted to persevere. But ultimately, it was doomed :(
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Re: atp
« Reply #53 on: 01 December 2018, 12:40:28 »

Webby. Buy some polybushes and GM rear bushes, fit them to your current wishbones (hopefully original GM ?) and you will be a happy bear.
I did it, plus Monaro top mounts and mine drives great.  :y
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Re: atp
« Reply #54 on: 01 December 2018, 23:02:50 »

Webby. Buy some polybushes and GM rear bushes, fit them to your current wishbones (hopefully original GM ?) and you will be a happy bear.


I did something similar, but I don't like pissing about. So I bought a pair of new ATP wishbones(with a load of other stuff), fitted the poly bushes to them, and did the whole front end as a get it done in one go and do something worthwhile job. I've done that on other Omegas too, You can replace the entire front suspension in about an hour per side with a small amount of preparation on the bench. With a beer :y


None of the ATP bones I've fitted have been noticeably poorer quality fabrications than the 15 year old GM ones on the cars. Which go straight in the bin as I don't have time or space for scrap hanging about for years.
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Re: atp
« Reply #55 on: 02 December 2018, 09:16:56 »

And then repeat next year, if you like a car that handles properly ;)
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Re: atp
« Reply #56 on: 02 December 2018, 12:15:31 »

I fitted a set of ATP wishbones to my Omega.

The front bushes didn't last very long so I polybushed them.  :y  Not long after the handling started to feel strange again, so I removed the wishbones to fit GM rear bushes, but found a crack in the weld around the rear bush carrier.  ::)

You pays your money....  :)
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Re: atp
« Reply #57 on: 02 December 2018, 12:38:24 »

That’s really bad re the crack in the weld.

However were you tightening front bush with car on the stands? If so you will compromise those front bushes
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Re: atp
« Reply #58 on: 02 December 2018, 12:47:52 »

That’s really bad re the crack in the weld.

However were you tightening front bush with car on the stands? If so you will compromise those front bushes

Nope on the ground.  :y

It was a tiny crack, but wasn't going to heal up!  It obviously didn't like the extra stress that the polybush put there.  ::)
« Last Edit: 02 December 2018, 12:49:52 by Sir Tigger QC »
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Re: atp
« Reply #59 on: 02 December 2018, 14:20:55 »

That’s really bad re the crack in the weld.

However were you tightening front bush with car on the stands? If so you will compromise those front bushes

This doesn't apply when polybushes are fitted.  ;)
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Re: atp
« Reply #60 on: 02 December 2018, 16:39:52 »

That’s really bad re the crack in the weld.

However were you tightening front bush with car on the stands? If so you will compromise those front bushes

Nope on the ground.  :y

It was a tiny crack, but wasn't going to heal up!  It obviously didn't like the extra stress that the polybush put there.  ::)
Might have been a side effect of pressing out the old bushes. Unfortunately we'll never know.

Mine took no end of abuse... One positive of plod springs is the apparent ability to take speed humps at speed.
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Re: atp
« Reply #61 on: 02 December 2018, 17:09:44 »

That’s really bad re the crack in the weld.

However were you tightening front bush with car on the stands? If so you will compromise those front bushes

Nope on the ground.  :y

It was a tiny crack, but wasn't going to heal up!  It obviously didn't like the extra stress that the polybush put there.  ::)
Might have been a side effect of pressing out the old bushes. Unfortunately we'll never know.

Mine took no end of abuse... One positive of plod springs is the apparent ability to take speed humps at speed.

No I spotted the crack before pressing out the bushes, and fitted the polybushes and GM rear bushes to a different set of wishbones I had kicking about.  ;)
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Re: atp
« Reply #62 on: 02 December 2018, 17:23:32 »

That’s really bad re the crack in the weld.

However were you tightening front bush with car on the stands? If so you will compromise those front bushes

This doesn't apply when polybushes are fitted.  ;)

I know mate but he said the front bushes didn’t last long... he then polyd them 👍👍👍
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Re: atp
« Reply #63 on: 02 December 2018, 17:41:26 »

I missed that bit. I blame the nightshifts.  :-[ ;D
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Re: atp
« Reply #64 on: 02 December 2018, 18:23:42 »

😂😂😂😂😂
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Re: atp
« Reply #65 on: 02 December 2018, 20:05:27 »

And then repeat next year, if you like a car that handles properly ;)


I do like a car that handles properly, but I still can't understand how you manage to knacker so many parts so quickly.
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Re: atp
« Reply #66 on: 03 December 2018, 17:17:35 »

And then repeat next year, if you like a car that handles properly ;)


I do like a car that handles properly, but I still can't understand how you manage to knacker so many parts so quickly.
I suspect our definitions of handling properly may vary.  Also our definitions of a spirited ride.

Clearly driving it harder does put more stress and wear into the suspension and steering components.
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