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[Lizzie_Zoom]

It is obvious that water is both a cooling friend and a corroding enemy to an internal combustion engine.

So, the thought has again ocurred to me; why use water when it can cause so many problems in our engine's??

Now I'm sure many have thought this out before, and I may be missing something here, but could there be an alternative to water? :-/ :-/ :-/

Your thoughts please.

[MikeDundee]

It is obvious that water is both a cooling friend and a corroding enemy to an internal combustion engine.

So, the thought has again ocurred to me; why use water when it can cause so many problems in our engine's??

Now I'm sure many have thought this out before, and I may be missing something here, but could there be an alternative to water? :-/ :-/ :-/

Your thoughts please.

Think thats why the water is mixed with anti-freeze, which also contains anti-corrosion properties. However, I saw a bloke the other day putting straight water into the coolant tank of his astra .....did advise him that it should be mixed, really he said

[nick v6]

It is obvious that water is both a cooling friend and a corroding enemy to an internal combustion engine.

So, the thought has again ocurred to me; why use water when it can cause so many problems in our engine's??

Now I'm sure many have thought this out before, and I may be missing something here, but could there be an alternative to water? :-/ :-/ :-/

Your thoughts please.

orange juice

[Tonka.]

WD40 

[TheBoy]

Water with an antifreeze mix works very well, as long as changed regularly.

[Lizzie_Zoom]

Water with an antifreeze mix works very well, as long as changed regularly.

Well yes TB, but it is far from perfect as we all a know with bits of our engines regularly requiring expensive replacement due to the effects of coming into contact with water and corroding even with anti-freeze mixed in. Surely some genius could come up with something a lot better? :-/ :-/ :-/

[Jimbob]

ready mixed antifreeze 

[Lizzie_Zoom]

ready mixed antifreeze 

Does that completely stop corrosion of parts Jimbob? :-/

[JamesV6CDX]

It still contains water - water is fine as long as it's mixed with the correct antifreeze level.... 

[Kevin Wood]

I guess you have to bear in mind that there's 10 litres of the stuff in the cooling system, that the risk of spillage is relatively high in the event of a collision and that water actually has a pretty reasonable specific heat capacity http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/specific-heat-fluids-d_151.html and is non-toxic.

It's also cheap, abundant and, as said, it can be made inert with respect to corrosion relatively easily.

I believe WW2 aircraft engines used to use neat ethylene glycol to allow higher temperature use but that is toxic, of course, especially when used neat, and has much less heat capacity so you need more of it (or a higher flow rate, at least) to shift the same amount of heat.

Kevin

[Lizzie_Zoom]

I guess you have to bear in mind that there's 10 litres of the stuff in the cooling system, that the risk of spillage is relatively high in the event of a collision and that water actually has a pretty reasonable specific heat capacity http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/specific-heat-fluids-d_151.html and is non-toxic.

It's also cheap, abundant and, as said, it can be made inert with respect to corrosion relatively easily.

I believe WW2 aircraft engines used to use neat ethylene glycol to allow higher temperature use but that is toxic, of course, especially when used neat, and has much less heat capacity so you need more of it (or a higher flow rate, at least) to shift the same amount of heat.

Kevin

Thanks Kevin, now that you, Jimbob and TB seem to suggest that there is no alternative at the moment I'll have to accept that

As for glycol, yes the Spitfire for instance used pure ethylene glycol, but as the header tank was very exposed, at the front, on top, of the engine, to enemy fire and the Merlin III, used in the MkI Spitfire, would quickly seize up of course!!   Apparently the other problem was it was very inflamable and when hit by enemy bullets would often start an engine fire!  

With the Merlin XII used for MkII Spitfire's Rolls Royce designed the system to take a mixture of ethylene glycol with water, and this reduced the risk of fire.

[MikeDundee]

I guess you have to bear in mind that there's 10 litres of the stuff in the cooling system, that the risk of spillage is relatively high in the event of a collision and that water actually has a pretty reasonable specific heat capacity http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/specific-heat-fluids-d_151.html and is non-toxic.

It's also cheap, abundant and, as said, it can be made inert with respect to corrosion relatively easily.

I believe WW2 aircraft engines used to use neat ethylene glycol to allow higher temperature use but that is toxic, of course, especially when used neat, and has much less heat capacity so you need more of it (or a higher flow rate, at least) to shift the same amount of heat.

Kevin

Thanks Kevin, now that you, Jimbob and TB seem to suggest that there is no alternative at the moment I'll have to accept that

As for glycol, yes the Spitfire for instance used pure ethylene glycol, but as the header tank was very exposed, at the front, on top, of the engine, to enemy fire and the Merlin III, used in the MkI Spitfire, would quickly seize up of course!!   Apparently the other problem was it was very inflamable and when hit by enemy bullets would often start an engine fire!  

With the Merlin XII used for MkII Spitfire's Rolls Royce designed the system to take a mixture of ethylene glycol with water, and this reduced the risk of fire.

Well at least we don't have to worry about getting shot at  .......

[Lizzie_Zoom]

I guess you have to bear in mind that there's 10 litres of the stuff in the cooling system, that the risk of spillage is relatively high in the event of a collision and that water actually has a pretty reasonable specific heat capacity http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/specific-heat-fluids-d_151.html and is non-toxic.

It's also cheap, abundant and, as said, it can be made inert with respect to corrosion relatively easily.

I believe WW2 aircraft engines used to use neat ethylene glycol to allow higher temperature use but that is toxic, of course, especially when used neat, and has much less heat capacity so you need more of it (or a higher flow rate, at least) to shift the same amount of heat.

Kevin

Thanks Kevin, now that you, Jimbob and TB seem to suggest that there is no alternative at the moment I'll have to accept that

As for glycol, yes the Spitfire for instance used pure ethylene glycol, but as the header tank was very exposed, at the front, on top, of the engine, to enemy fire and the Merlin III, used in the MkI Spitfire, would quickly seize up of course!!   Apparently the other problem was it was very inflamable and when hit by enemy bullets would often start an engine fire!  

With the Merlin XII used for MkII Spitfire's Rolls Royce designed the system to take a mixture of ethylene glycol with water, and this reduced the risk of fire.

Well at least we don't have to worry about getting shot at  .......

Speak for yourself Mike, you should live in these parts where the red indians can be hostile!!

[andyc]

in all my cars i use Distilled water, Antifreeze and water wetter.

Andy

[platty]

in all my cars i use Distilled water, Antifreeze and water wetter.

Andy

Do you think this has any noticeable effect?

[andyc]

it does help on the Manta & GT engines so i use it in all the motors as a matter of course

Andy

[TheBoy]

Water with an antifreeze mix works very well, as long as changed regularly.

Well yes TB, but it is far from perfect as we all a know with bits of our engines regularly requiring expensive replacement due to the effects of coming into contact with water and corroding even with anti-freeze mixed in. Surely some genius could come up with something a lot better? :-/ :-/ :-/

Those who know much more than I ever will, and who have been in the bowels of my engine, have made kind comments about the state of my engine internals, particularly waterways.

So, if you service properly (properly may not mean following GM's schedule ), water/antifreeze seems a good combination

[Lizzie_Zoom]

Water with an antifreeze mix works very well, as long as changed regularly.

Well yes TB, but it is far from perfect as we all a know with bits of our engines regularly requiring expensive replacement due to the effects of coming into contact with water and corroding even with anti-freeze mixed in. Surely some genius could come up with something a lot better? :-/ :-/ :-/

Those who know much more than I ever will, and who have been in the bowels of my engine, have made kind comments about the state of my engine internals, particularly waterways.

So, if you service properly (properly may not mean following GM's schedule ), water/antifreeze seems a good combination

Thanks TB!

Just one further question though, I notice Rolls Royce Merlin XII engines used a mixture of 70% ethylene glycol, 30% water, after initially using 100% ethycol glycol in their earlier Merlin's.  Would such mixtures be more suitable for car / Omega engines? :-/ :-/  .....................................................or am I now being really daft TB in my quest for a better cooling medium than 50% glycol / 50% water in our engines?? :-/ :-/ :-/

[Kevin Wood]

Thanks TB!

Just one further question though, I notice Rolls Royce Merlin XII engines used a mixture of 70% ethylene glycol, 30% water, after initially using 100% ethycol glycol in their earlier Merlin's.  Would such mixtures be more suitable for car / Omega engines? :-/ :-/  .....................................................or am I now being really daft TB in my quest for a better cooling medium than 50% glycol / 50% water in our engines?? :-/ :-/ :-/

I reckon they added water to improve cooling. Pure glycol would have had less specific heat capacity than the 70/30 mix. Merlins got pushed harder and harder throughout their development so they probably traded off a decrease in the boiling point with an increase in cooling efficiency.

Really, you're best off with as little additive as possible to maintain the corrosion inhibition and anti-freezing properties so I don't think a stronger mix would do you any favours.

If I could guarantee that my car would never freeze I would use water plus a little corrosion inhibitor (water wetter is supposed to be enough in that respect  :-/).

Kevin

[Lizzie_Zoom]

Thanks TB!

Just one further question though, I notice Rolls Royce Merlin XII engines used a mixture of 70% ethylene glycol, 30% water, after initially using 100% ethycol glycol in their earlier Merlin's.  Would such mixtures be more suitable for car / Omega engines? :-/ :-/  .....................................................or am I now being really daft TB in my quest for a better cooling medium than 50% glycol / 50% water in our engines?? :-/ :-/ :-/

I reckon they added water to improve cooling. Pure glycol would have had less specific heat capacity than the 70/30 mix. Merlins got pushed harder and harder throughout their development so they probably traded off a decrease in the boiling point with an increase in cooling efficiency.

Really, you're best off with as little additive as possible to maintain the corrosion inhibition and anti-freezing properties so I don't think a stronger mix would do you any favours.

If I could guarantee that my car would never freeze I would use water plus a little corrosion inhibitor (water wetter is supposed to be enough in that respect  :-/).

Kevin

And to stop the engine catching fire easily when hit by an ME109!!

Thanks Kevin, but you may have been able to tell I am asking questions on our traditional way of cooling car engines, either by water or of course air.

Just imagine a system where:

     1/  you didn't need a thermostat
     2/  perhaps you could do without a radiator & the      hoses 
     3/  the engine never over-heated
     4/  the engine never froze
     5/  the engine kept a perfect temperature
     6/  the water pump could be dispensed with
     7/  you never had to worry about engine corrosion

Now we know air cooled systems have been tried, as they were on early aircraft, but what if a chemical / mix could be found that meant the engine could be completely sealed, as are batteries now, and constantly maintained at the right temperature??

We have accepted water cooling for 100 years, but in these last decades of the internal combustion engine with electric motors to 'solve all', can we not find a more sophisticated and efficient way of cooling our engines??

Are there any experts in the chemical industry who can think this one out and make a fortune??

Just a simple thought!!

[Bent valve]

 I have often wondered if the water soluble oil that is used diluted with water to provide cooling and corrosion protection on lathes and milling machines ect would be an alternative to antifreeze. it certainly has excellent anti corrosion properties, but I have no idea about its heat transferance qualities or freezing point :-/

[Lizzie_Zoom]

I have often wondered if the water soluble oil that is used diluted with water to provide cooling and corrosion protection on lathes and milling machines ect would be an alternative to antifreeze. it certainly has excellent anti corrosion properties, but I have no idea about its heat transferance qualities or freezing point :-/

That I think is the crucial point BV in all our ideas on the subject.  I just know there must be a modern technological alternative, but just haven't got the knowledge to put anything into place!

[Searcher]

It is obvious that water is both a cooling friend and a corroding enemy to an internal combustion engine.

So, the thought has again ocurred to me; why use water when it can cause so many problems in our engine's??

Now I'm sure many have thought this out before, and I may be missing something here, but could there be an alternative to water? :-/ :-/ :-/

Your thoughts please.

Are you thinking of something like this...

http://www.evanscooling.com/catalog/C_npg1.htm
 

[Lizzie_Zoom]

It is obvious that water is both a cooling friend and a corroding enemy to an internal combustion engine.

So, the thought has again ocurred to me; why use water when it can cause so many problems in our engine's??

Now I'm sure many have thought this out before, and I may be missing something here, but could there be an alternative to water? :-/ :-/ :-/

Your thoughts please.

Are you thinking of something like this...

http://www.evanscooling.com/catalog/C_npg1.htm
 

Yes Searcher, thanks!!!  

That indeed could be a great big step forward in my quest for a water alternative!!   I note NO corrosion can be caused with this product, and it cannot freeze nor boil over!! 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-)

Now to take it one step forward, could there be a further development of this type of product to seal the engine, rid ourselves of water pumps and have a life long chemically cooled engine??

[Lizzie_Zoom]

It is obvious that water is both a cooling friend and a corroding enemy to an internal combustion engine.

So, the thought has again ocurred to me; why use water when it can cause so many problems in our engine's??

Now I'm sure many have thought this out before, and I may be missing something here, but could there be an alternative to water? :-/ :-/ :-/

Your thoughts please.

Are you thinking of something like this...

http://www.evanscooling.com/catalog/C_npg1.htm
 

Yes Searcher, thanks!!!  

That indeed could be a great big step forward in my quest for a water alternative!!   I note NO corrosion can be caused with this product, and it cannot freeze nor boil over!! 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-)

Now to take it one step forward, could there be a further development of this type of product to seal the engine, rid ourselves of water pumps and have a life long chemically cooled engine??

Has any member, inc, Searcher, tried this product, EVANS WATERLESS COOLING??

http://www.evanscooling.com/catalog/C_npg1.htm

What have been the results?? :-/ :-/ :-/

Remember these are my aims:

Just imagine a system where:

     1/  you didn't need a thermostat
     2/  perhaps you could do without a radiator & the hoses
     3/  the engine never over-heated
     4/  the engine never froze
     5/  the engine kept a perfect temperature
     6/  the water pump could be dispensed with
     7/  you never had to worry about engine corrosion

Now we know air cooled systems have been tried, as they were on early aircraft, but what if a chemical / mix could be found that meant the engine could be completely sealed, as are batteries now, and constantly maintained at the right temperature??

We have accepted water cooling for 100 years, but in these last decades of the internal combustion engine with electric motors to 'solve all', can we not find a more sophisticated and efficient way of cooling our engines??

[Martin_1962]

I used to have a partial oil cooled bike.

Water is just so efficient at cooling though

[mantahatch]

I guess you have to bear in mind that there's 10 litres of the stuff in the cooling system, that the risk of spillage is relatively high in the event of a collision and that water actually has a pretty reasonable specific heat capacity http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/specific-heat-fluids-d_151.html and is non-toxic.

It's also cheap, abundant and, as said, it can be made inert with respect to corrosion relatively easily.

I believe WW2 aircraft engines used to use neat ethylene glycol to allow higher temperature use but that is toxic, of course, especially when used neat, and has much less heat capacity so you need more of it (or a higher flow rate, at least) to shift the same amount of heat.

Kevin

Thanks Kevin, now that you, Jimbob and TB seem to suggest that there is no alternative at the moment I'll have to accept that

As for glycol, yes the Spitfire for instance used pure ethylene glycol, but as the header tank was very exposed, at the front, on top, of the engine, to enemy fire and the Merlin III, used in the MkI Spitfire, would quickly seize up of course!!   Apparently the other problem was it was very inflamable and when hit by enemy bullets would often start an engine fire!  

With the Merlin XII used for MkII Spitfire's Rolls Royce designed the system to take a mixture of ethylene glycol with water, and this reduced the risk of fire.

Sorry this is not relavent but we where having a discussion about the spitfire the other day, and one particularly old chap was insisting the merlin engine was useless and for the later better spitfires they used the griffin engine.

Now I have no idea about this, does anyone no if he is right or wrong ? He looked old enough to have flown them in the war so obviously we did not argue with him.  :-/

[Searcher]

Sorry this is not relavent but we where having a discussion about the spitfire the other day, and one particularly old chap was insisting the merlin engine was useless and for the later better spitfires they used the griffin engine.



The Hawker Hurricane (with a Merlin Engine)

 During the Battle of Britain between July and October 1940, 1.720 of them took part and had the honour of claiming 80% of enemy aircraft shot down by Fighter Command.

Impressive result by anyone's standard.




Now I have no idea about this, does anyone no if he is right or wrong ? He looked old enough to have flown them in the war so obviously we did not argue with him.  :-/[/quote]



This might hold the answer to your question.

http://www.spitfiresociety.demon.co.uk/engines.htm

[Lizzie_Zoom]

Sorry this is not relavent but we where having a discussion about the spitfire the other day, and one particularly old chap was insisting the merlin engine was useless and for the later better spitfires they used the griffin engine.



The Hawker Hurricane (with a Merlin Engine)

 During the Battle of Britain between July and October 1940, 1.720 of them took part and had the honour of claiming 80% of enemy aircraft shot down by Fighter Command.

Impressive result by anyone's standard.




Now I have no idea about this, does anyone no if he is right or wrong ? He looked old enough to have flown them in the war so obviously we did not argue with him.  :-/

This might hold the answer to your question.

http://www.spitfiresociety.demon.co.uk/engines.htm[/quote]




That link I think spells out how successful the Merlin engines were 8-) 8-) 8-)

In addition it must be remembered that due to the Merlin the very successful Lancaster heavy bomber, with four of them, had the heaviest bomb load at 22,000lbs proving its worth many times over. 8-) 8-) 8-)

PLUS the American P51 Mustang only became a very successful escort for the B17's Flying Fortress on their daylight bombing raids deep into Germany after it was fitted with the British Merlin engines.  Previously the USA Eighth Army Air Force has suffered very heavy losses, 120 aircraft, 1200 crew, in just two raids in particular of the 80,000 crew in total killed during this campaign, but the Merlin powered P51 reduced this rate of loss very considerably. 8-) 8-)

In short, that old man does not understand the facts!!