Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: addy on 24 October 2019, 09:01:04
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Took the wifes car for MOT today, the CO emissions are just slightly higher than the recommended MOT one. What could be causing it?
The tester said the Lambda is in range.
Thanks in advance for any help.
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I would check air filter clean and gap plugs, then put a good quality injector cleaner in warm it up and give it a damn good ragging works surprisingly well.
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Got the results in front of me. It failed on First and the second high idle test, but not idle.
Natural idle
RPM 790 PASS
CO .376 PASS
First fast idle
RPM 2846 PASS
CO .530
HC 81 PASS
LAMBDA 1.021 PASS
Second fast idle
RPM 2864 PASS
CO .530 FAIL
HC 80 PASS
LAMBDA 1.019 PASS
I thought the LAMBDA reading was supposed to be 1? Do these readings point towards bad O2 sensor and/or Cat? I notice on live data, before it went for test, that the Sensor would go to Open Loop every now and then, at idle even with engine warm. Have cleaned the MAF with the proper cleaner.
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Huh it passed with .530 first time and failed with .530 second time sorry but I don’t understand that?
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As you more than likely know high co is due to incomplete combustion so that’s the way to go anyway
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sorry it failed CO emissions of .530 on both Fast idle tests.
I would have thought it would of been the other way, fail on normal idle test and pass on fast idle, as the engine is working faster so burning fuel quicker at higher revs, or am I thinking wrong?
I changed spark plugs and airfilter before going. The old spark plugs looked OK, no contaminates normal colour. According to charts online the plugs are fine and engine in good condition.
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from 19th edition emissions book......
max is
0.5% Co normal idol ,
0.3% fast idol ,
200 ppm hydrocarbons ,
Lambda range 0.97 to 1.03
OIL at 80 degrees plus ,which is important
if the car is not up to temp ,it will overfuel badly
if the coolant temperature sensor is duff (common on 4 bangers) it will overfuel (so check live data )
I put cataclean in 1/4 of a tank of petrol, with spirited drive,or later gear changes to rev move,get the cat warm ,then put fresh petrol in before test ,
lambda may be duff or the temp sensor ,car should not go open loop once it is in closed loop
getting the cat really hot prior to mot would probably have seen a pass , your not far off
I'd check live data again if possible, temp sensor and lambdas ,possibly replace them, cataclean ,check and gap plugs, check breathers are clear,throttle body is clean, and get the car warm ,cats hot (Mexican tune up) before taking for re-test at a set appointment , i say this because if the car sits waiting for an hour before test,it will go cold . :(
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Agree that should do it worth a try before you spend
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if the coolant temperature sensor is duff (common on 4 bangers) it will overfuel (so check live data )
This. There are 2, one for the dash and one for the ECU. The ECU one is the important one. Does the car get up to and hold temp properly?
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if the coolant temperature sensor is duff (common on 4 bangers) it will overfuel (so check live data )
This. There are 2, one for the dash and one for the ECU. The ECU one is the important one. Does the car get up to and hold temp properly?
agreed. Live data is your best bet, but the parts(I'd replace both to be sure) are cheap and easily changed on a 4pot so are probably worth changing anyway. Poor temperature sensors will affect fuel economy, so changing one will pay for itself.
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if the coolant temperature sensor is duff (common on 4 bangers) it will overfuel (so check live data )
This. There are 2, one for the dash and one for the ECU. The ECU one is the important one. Does the car get up to and hold temp properly?
agreed. Live data is your best bet, but the parts(I'd replace both to be sure) are cheap and easily changed on a 4pot so are probably worth changing anyway. Poor temperature sensors will affect fuel economy, so changing one will pay for itself.
I will add, I think this is one of those parts were I would only buy genuine.
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Rang Vauxhall dealer who said the Temp sender for the ECU, Part NO. 90411977 is no longer available. just to find out how much it would cost, incase it is the problem :'(
The one on the engine is blue, and I understand that there is also a black one.
So will have to look else where. Will it be a Bosch or Siemens make? If unable to find one in which ever it is, what make would be the next best?
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https://www.genuinepartsearch.co.uk/ <--- they are saying they have a genuine packaged part. I would just confirm it's vauxhall packaged and not cheap variant. IE Genuine Fram.
Also, another part number (same part) 1342850
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Used these many times before they buy ex-dealer stock, never any issues before, can recommend them :y
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Rang Genuine parts, to check if genuine or OEM. They said it is genuine Vauxhall Sensor, so purchased one. Cost £15.87 including postage.
Thanks for thelp. Much apprecited.
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Thanks for thelp. Much apprecited.
Thank us when it passes and that is the right part to solve the issue.
Has it had an oil change recently?
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The thanks is for all the help. Even if it doesn't go through, all the suggestions have given me somewhere to start.
Got intouch with Genuine parts. They said the sensor was a genuine one, so ordered one. Just had a email to tell me that they don't have it in stock as it is no longer available, but they can supply a aftermarket one.
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Try the US ;)
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The thanks is for all the help. Even if it doesn't go through, all the suggestions have given me somewhere to start.
Got intouch with Genuine parts. They said the sensor was a genuine one, so ordered one. Just had a email to tell me that they don't have it in stock as it is no longer available, but they can supply a aftermarket one.
you can pick up an aftermarket one from any decent motor factors to save waiting for deliveries
genuine £10 slow post clicky (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Genuine-Vauxhall-Vectra-B-Omega-B-1-8-2-0-Coolant-Temperature-Sensor/264375222087?hash=item3d8dfdbf47:g:~v4AAOSwqzJdESVY)
plenty of others on ebay too
but check live data if possible first ,your sensor may be fine
worth checking the wet stat is not stuck open (stopping the engine ever reaching running temp)
if this is the car that had a headgasket replaced :-\ lambdas could be contaminated
again, live data would show if they where switching,reading correct voltage
and consider my earlier advice about cataclean and warming engine up and cat before retest
if you have an ohm meter/multi-meter ,you can test the temp sensor for resistance :y
info here clicky (http://www.topbuzz.co.uk/maintenance/cts/cts.htm) topbuzz website
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actually,looking at the part number 90411977 vauxhall quote is a square plug, like the carlton one :-\
yet 90573077 is oval
so you probably need to check what plug type is actually fitted
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Thanks Dave the Builder.
Yes it did have the Headgasket go. The number for the part you gave is different to the one given to me, by Vauxhall dealership 90411977. I have been looking for their number, but if genuine is not needed that is great.
Got a new Catalyst coming this week, as I ordered a full exhaust because the one on car, was rotten.
Car is off road now, as the MOT said two tyres are below minimum, so cannot be driven until changed. Can only get live data on the drive.
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Live data on the drive will be fine for testing the CTS (temp sensor) and lambdas :y
IIRC you have the "code reader that can't be named" :-X
that will show you temp sensor in degrees and voltage ,
and the lambdas switching rich/lean and voltage :y
and because the original cat is 23 years old and contaminated by headgasket failure and the poor condition of the rest of the exhaust, your probably on the right track
but live data is your best bet
good luck :y
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You do indeed remember correct about code reader ;D
The last reading got for the O2 Sensor, it was dropping into open loop every now and then. Probably did it just as high idle, was being done knowing my luck.
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It's easy to replace the lambdas while the exhaust is off
they get tired after 80k anyway
not all that expensive either anymore
and if it was dropping out when you read live data ,
it sounds like replacement while the exhaust is off may be a good idea :-\
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Give the car a good service, all filters and plugs if needed. Also take the sonder out and give it a good clean. that normally does the trick.
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If you have live data, I'd also check the fuel trims aren't wandering off too far. If they are, it could be a MAF sensor failure although the front lambda sensor is also a possibility.
Check that there aren't any leaks into the exhaust system too. On the 4 pots, cracks in the exhaust manifold, failed studs and failed exhaust flexi sections can all cause the lambda sensor to mis-read and affect fuelling accuracy. This is in addition to intake air leaks, all of which will see the fuel trims wander off zero.
That said, the lambda isn't that far off and, although that reading is prone to error on the MOT analysers, the fact that you have a little HC present as well at a reasonable lambda makes me think the cat might have seen better days. Check the engine is getting up to normal operating temperature, though. :y
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Had a similar issue with the emissions on my MoT.
First go, all good except CO...
Tester reckoned that it was simply because the cat wasn't quite hot enough.
I always take the car for a 10 mile thrash and present it at the appointment time so there is minimal sitting around, but they always do the emissions test right at the end so the car sits for a bit.
Second go saw it drop from 0.38 to 0.05.
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If you have live data, I'd also check the fuel trims aren't wandering off too far. If they are, it could be a MAF sensor failure although the front lambda sensor is also a possibility.
It's a 1995 2.0L so it doesn't have a pre-cat. It should be just the one lambda sensor before the main cat, isn't it? There's no post cat sensor to indicate that the cat is working properly as there is on the 2.2. These sensors have an 'official' life of about 60,000 miles. Factor in old age, means it probably needs replacing in any event. I'd be inclined to eliminate the MAF as an issue, replace the sensor and measure the emissions at the tail-pipe. If they're still out then try the cataclean, but might well be that you need a new catalytic downpipe.
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Should still show a code if the sensor is out of limits or not working :-\
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If you have live data, I'd also check the fuel trims aren't wandering off too far. If they are, it could be a MAF sensor failure although the front lambda sensor is also a possibility.
It's a 1995 2.0L so it doesn't have a pre-cat. It should be just the one lambda sensor before the main cat, isn't it? There's no post cat sensor to indicate that the cat is working properly as there is on the 2.2. These sensors have an 'official' life of about 60,000 miles. Factor in old age, means it probably needs replacing in any event. I'd be inclined to eliminate the MAF as an issue, replace the sensor and measure the emissions at the tail-pipe. If they're still out then try the cataclean, but might well be that you need a new catalytic downpipe.
Yes, right you are. IIRC, the 2.0 has the less common titania lambda sensor, too, so be careful to get the correct type if changing it.
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Had a bit of quiet time, so decided to remove the O2 sensor from the old Catalyst. I am not suprised the emissions were off. I think it is contaminated with coolant, from the Head Gasket going. Now just got to get time to take it for MOT.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/e331/Remingtonarmy/0/de9648c0-d6c0-4af8-b12c-27f1ea8ca1a8-original.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds)
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Well added new NGK O2 sensor OTA7L-3C4 which is a Titania Sensor, NGK partfinder catalogue said this is the one for my car 02/95 –>
Date of first registration October 1995 , and full exhaust from manifold to the back including new cat. Still failed on emissions again, on fast test. Idle test passed.
So did a live data today on the drive, at high revs. Can anyone see why the O2 sensor keeps going to open loop?
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1kQzSLgMtnlRkFVouTMZ5cIrI5sBrmpmM (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1kQzSLgMtnlRkFVouTMZ5cIrI5sBrmpmM)
Thanks in advance
Addy
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Too cold would be my guess... Temp should be at least triple what it's reporting :-\
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Do you mean temp sender for computer?
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Coolant temp ;) engine is effectively stone cold...
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Thanks for the help. The temp on gauge inside car was at 90 when I finished the data. Air temp on car display was flashing 3.0. Would any make sensor work as it is a NLS part.
Don't want to have to fight to get to the back of the engine too many times. ;D
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your highest coolant temperature reading H is 76 degrees
the engine coolant is reading too low and the ECU will still overfuel as a cold start ,92 is running temp
also, the cat needs to be hot , a common problem , drop it off for MOT ,sits for hours till cold and then they try an emission test :(
what did it fail on ? C0 high ? HC high ? lambda out of range ? need the actual numbers to know what to look for ;)
also , your data shows engine speed @ 1300-1400 :-\ what is going on ? does the tacho match the data ?
it suggests air leak
what are the fuel trims like ?
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MOT tester doesn't let the car get cold, as you say some do. Natural Idle. CO .376 Fast idle CO .530 HC 81 LAMBDA 1.021
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MOT tester doesn't let the car get cold, as you say some do. Natural Idle. CO .376 Fast idle CO .530 HC 81 LAMBDA 1.021
Lambda is high side of 1 so too much fuel
C0 needs to be 0.3 or less @ 2500rpm or more for the win
from your live data 76 degrees is showing 1.48 volts
at 90+ degrees it should be down to near 1 volt ,normal running temp map
are you 100% sure you have no exhaust or manifold leaks :-\ or intake air leaks
is the wet stat working correctly 92 degrees ? stuck open it will goose the emissions
did the tester wait for the cooling fans to kick in :-\ or use an ODB2 dongle plugged in to the car ,or oil temp probe to confirm oil over 80 degrees , or did he click SKIP ::)
check operation of the wet stat :y
get the car up to temp,fans kicking in , check fuel trims, coolant temp in degrees c and voltage
air filter clean ?
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Natural idle
RPM 790 PASS
CO .376 PASS
First fast idle
RPM 2846 PASS
CO .530
HC 81 PASS
LAMBDA 1.021 PASS
Second fast idle
RPM 2864 PASS
CO .530 FAIL
HC 80 PASS
LAMBDA 1.019 PASS
As far as can tell or hear no leaks. Does a new thermostat come with the housing, or can you get the stat to fit in the housing? Did full oil, plugs, plug leads and airfilter service before mot.
Oil temp is shown on test paper as 84, it says the fans kicked in.
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so ....
check operation of the wet stat :y
PLUS ,get the car up to temp,fans kicking in , check fuel trims, coolant temp in degrees c and voltage
was it a cheap and nasty new cat ?
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Testing parameters of the 2.0 Omega...
normal idle: a) CO, b)idle speed min/max.
fast idle: c)CO, d)max HC ppm, e)lambda min/max, f)rpm min/max, g)minimum temp.
Engine Code X20SE/OHC a)0.5 b)670/1030; c)0.3 d)200 e)0.97/1.03 f)2800/3200 g)80
Engine Code X20XEV/DOHC a)0.5 b)670/1030; c)0.3 d)200 e)0.97/1.03 f)2800/3200 g)80
Taken from Annex of testers emissions. ;)
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as per the 7th post on this thread by me ;D
still needs 0.5 or less C0 fast idle
close but no cigar so far
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The set of emission test results you posted yesterday seem to be identical to the original set from a month ago? That seems to be a bit unlikely.
It might help if you would clarify what exactly you have done in the meantime?
EG. do we correctly understand that you replaced the coolant temperature sender for the ECU?
Then you renewed the whole exhaust complete with the catalytic down-pipe from the manifold?
And then you replaced the Lambda sensor with a new NGK one?
Has the car actually had the emissions re-tested?
Or are you assuming that the high CO issue is still present as the cycling from closed to open loop is still present?
Maybe the thermostat is stuck open so the engine doesn't get to full temperature.
I imagine it would be worthwhile to check the fuel trim. When in closed loop perhaps the fuel trim reaches the limit of it's adjustment range and the system falls back to open loop until a valid reading is supplied by the sensor?
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YES it has had the emissions done, I looked at wrong emission paper. ::)
This is the one done 9/12/19 second one
This is with new exhaust from down pipe to back box. Brand new O2 NGK sensor (Correct one for car). Waited replies about live data on the temp sensor. Got one now to fit.
Engine speed measurement was by-passed
Engine oil temp was by-passed cooling fan cut in.
FAST IDLE
RPM Not checked
CO 0.450 FAIL
HC 152 PASS
LAMBDA 1.015 PASS
NATURAL IDLE
RPM Not checked
CO 0.440 PASS
When temperature goes up on temp gauge, the fans kick in and the temp comes down to around 90, so doesn't that mean the stat is working correct?
The closed to open loop was happening both before and after doing the changes explained above.
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Italian tune up and retest immediately ;)
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Indeed as post number two :y
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shouldn't go open loop though
you still need to look at the fuel trims
just sneaking it past an MOT is not a long term answer ,
engine needs to run correctly or the new cat will die
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Engine breather blocked perhaps?
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The fans come on because the radiator is hot. The radiator is hot because the thermostat is open. It doesn't follow that the engine is fully up to temperature because you might have a faulty thermostat.
If the ECU is switching to open loop when the fans come on then it points to a faulty thermostat
The dash gauge over-reads on the pre facelift IIRC :-\ so I would trust the CTS over the gauge.You might have a faulty CTS but you can do a quick sanity check be seeing what it reads when the engine is cold.
.
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If you have an infra red temperature gun you could use that around thermostat area to see what’s really going on as it warms up. Great tool to have around and not too expensive,
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I notice that on your original test natural idle was 790 RPM. That seems to be a bit high.
On your data capture cold start idle was 1378 RPM @ intake air temp = 2.7° and coolant = 28°
At the end of capture your idle was 768 RPM @ intake air temp =2.58° and coolant = 76°.
Idle is not much improved.
So your engine was warm when started?
Or the temp reading is way off at cold. It should be a lot closer to the air temp if the engine was really stone cold, left overnight.
Your engine never reached normal operating temp of 92°.
So the thermostat should never have opened.
In addition instead of gradually declining to a minimum, your idle has gone above 2k rpm whilst warming up.
And your best idle is fluctuating between 768 & 800.
The fluctuation might be the fans.
Is there any exhaust smell in the cabin?
Is there a vacuum leak somewhere? That would increase the idle speed.
And it seems to me that your engine temperature sensor might be foobar. That would explain over-fueling.
So why are the fans kicking in? Is the thermostatic switch on the radiator also foobar?
Perhaps try disabling the fan, pull the relay. Run your capture again. See does the engine temp go to 92° and what happens to the closed cycle.
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Forgot to mention - the thermostat should remain fully closed until the engine gets up to temperature.
Start the engine (from cold) and try holding the top hose - it should remain cold until the engine reaches close to the marked thermostat temperature.
If it gets warm before the engine reaches 92 degrees then fit a new stat. Everything else is a diversion if the stat is opening too early.
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You mentioned a new temperature sender.
Was that fitted before your data capture?
Please confirm that it was the ECU sensor as opposed to the dashboard sender?
Was the new part fitted before of after the last emissions test?
Likewise before or after the open loop data capture?
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Sorry for the delay in replying. Not been too good. Changed both ECT sensor and Thermostat for new ones. The O2 sensor was changed before the ECT and Stat. Checked car today and it is still dropping between open and closed loop. The O2 sensor voltage seems to be erratic, when it is open the voltage is low, then when closed is high. As can be seen the Temp seems to make no difference, where it drops to open unless I have missed something.
I have recorded data at different temps. With no throttle, just letting everything warm up as normal. Sorry might not be in any particular order of opening.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1s55aFlQAuT5AeAgKE_xrbGOysk2tg7rb (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1s55aFlQAuT5AeAgKE_xrbGOysk2tg7rb)
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1vjoP6jJtvrgiUj35HU0QIgFufcaQzC_r (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1vjoP6jJtvrgiUj35HU0QIgFufcaQzC_r)
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1DOVqoV_aNhgm1N_ZAaUoXPmjdmQ51NEh (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1DOVqoV_aNhgm1N_ZAaUoXPmjdmQ51NEh)
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1WsgF0LuI0Y4X7I-1FkuMDIX-IIEyTgRE (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1WsgF0LuI0Y4X7I-1FkuMDIX-IIEyTgRE)
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1octCW_v6exJQ36hHh2fWPDHrkTkBrk6t (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1octCW_v6exJQ36hHh2fWPDHrkTkBrk6t)
Just to say All the best to everyone, for the New Year
Addy
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I've said before about the engine speed ,possibly on another thread ???
you say all readings are with NO throttle yet reported engine speed is double or more than desired engine speed ,air leak ? what is the actual engine speed as per the dash when you idle ? 1400+ or 760 ish ???
if the ECU thinks the car is in acceleration at wide open throttle , or deceleration, then the ECU ignores the Lambda (open loop)
also open loop during warming up (over-fuels like a demented arsonist on a mission )
should only go closed loop (ECU uses data from lambdas ) when at Idle or part throttle operation when running at operating temperature
coolant temp voltage seems fine 4.5v cold to 1v hot
lambda voltage should bounce 200 to 800 ish millivolts not 4000+ (4 volts) when closed :o
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also actual engine speed shows 0 in some sections of data , so either it stalled and re-started or crank signal lost and regained ??? as in "duff RPM sensor"
then i notice battery voltage zero in the same sections ::)
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Sorry for all the aggro with live data. Recently had a stroke, which has taken out the communication part out, so lose what am saying and writing now and then. Only recently been able to drive. The part where it shows no revs, I think i caught the stop button, when bringin laptop out of sleep. Sorry
I have done 2 videos. 1st one shows idle from cold to tickover. (it is quite long)
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1-b3MOuY73zYZEQqWFO59Sv1US40zk119 (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1-b3MOuY73zYZEQqWFO59Sv1US40zk119)
2nd one shows revs and temp at nearly 80c on livedata.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=12usWgUhvVmSddleUzbzKCYGA6uoQFV4J (https://drive.google.com/open?id=12usWgUhvVmSddleUzbzKCYGA6uoQFV4J)
Livedata from nearly 80c
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1iMk0iuKaV121jebyf22kssGN8lLC5G24 (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1iMk0iuKaV121jebyf22kssGN8lLC5G24)
Thank you all for your patience and help. It really is appreciated.
Best wishes for the New Year
Addy
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Coolant temp is still far too low.
Either unplug the fans for the emissions test, but watch the gauge, or replace the thermostat and report back :y
BTW, sorry to hear about your stroke, that alone is enough to worry about without car issues.
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Sorry for all the aggro with live data. Recently had a stroke, .....
Sorry to hear that .... hope things improve and you get back to something like normal soon
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The new ECT sensor is a FUELPARTS WS1044, which is correct for car using their webcatalog. Would a non genuine sensor be the problem, and is there one that is a better option? Got a new Thermostat on it, the top radiator hose doesn't get hot as quick as it did before it was changed.
Does all the other data seem OKon live data? No throttle was touched, just let car tickover without it.
Thanks again for everything.
Addy
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WS1044 appears to be for 16 valve engines. The data trace says the engine is 2.0L X20XEV, which is indeed 16 valve.
I see in the data trace that the Intake Air Temperature starts at 29°C and rises to 32°C.
The IAT temp seems implausible, at least for this part of the world at this time of year.
Check and clean the connector.
The maximum coolant temperature is only 80°C, so the engine is still not properly hot.
The thermostat should remain closed until it starts to open at 92°. 107° for fully open. If it opens too soon or is stuck open then the engine will run cool.
As suggested earlier, disable the radiator fans and check if the engine now gets up to operating temperature. Does that have any effect on the open/closed loop issue?
Your idle speed is varying between 768 & 800 RPM. I would have thought this a bit too fast. Especially with an autobox. Should be around 600RPM
Have you tried disconnecting the MAF? Does that make any difference to your idle speed and open loop issues?
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Four pot does idle a bit quicker than the V6 ;)
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Sorry to seem stupid Dr Gollum. but do you mean the voltage or temperature is low when you say Coolant temp is still far too low? What temp should the O2 go into full closed loop?
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Will be checking connectors for IAT, ECT and O2 and cleaning them with contact cleaner. Would it help if I did live data with MAF conected and data with it disconnected?
Also would a vacuum gauge test show a air leak? Also got a fuel rail pressure tester (what is correct pressure for my car? Also would a pressure test help, with ignition on engine not running, and with engine running?
Sorry again for all qestions;
Addy
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70 degrees is about twenty degrees too cold.
Which suggests either a lazy start, or you simply aren't allowing the car to heat up.
Setting the heater to the coldest setting will help, as will unplugging the fans... Just keep a close eye on the gauge whilst the fans are disconnected.
Fundamentally though, it sounds like you need a new thermostat. It won't go closed loop until it's up to temperature.
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70 degrees is about twenty degrees too cold.
Which suggests either a lazy start, or you simply aren't allowing the car to heat up.
Setting the heater to the coldest setting will help, as will unplugging the fans... Just keep a close eye on the gauge whilst the fans are disconnected.
Fundamentally though, it sounds like you need a new thermostat. It won't go closed loop until it's up to temperature.
won't turning the heater to coldest bring on the a/c fan ? cooling the rad
surely better to turn off the Climate controls altogether ,so the HBV closes :-\
seems very odd that the engine won't get up to 92 plus degrees when standing ,bonnet closed ,idling
wondering if there is a blockage of gunk from the blown HG,or air lock on the coolant bridge
does coolant pour out if you unscrew the coolant temp sensor Mr Addy ?
that said ,the dash sensor is showing too cold ,but that's on the coolant bridge too
sorry to hear you've not been well ,hope YOU and the omega have a speedy recovery get well soon :D
one thing you could try ,plug the old coolant sensor in the loom ,engine running,look at live data and warm the sensor up manually (lighter ) see if you get 90+ and closed loop etc
obviously taking care of moving parts etc
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Have just replaced the old thermostat with a CIRCOLI one. the thermostat is part of the thermostat housing, like the old one taken off.
dave the builder, yes water did come out of the hole when took out old ECT. I cleaned all waterways when the head was off using Industrial Vacuum cleaner. But the coolant that came out when the head was off was clean.
Am going to start car and leave it running from cold until the fans come on, while recording live data. To see what happens, then turn off car and undo fans and do the same with live data.
The car is prefacelift with manual heater control. So I turned it too off on the blower setting and cold on the temp control.
Thanks everyone for the wishes.
Addy
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Was going to say it's a Pre climate car ;)
Turning the heater to cold effectively shuts off the feed to the heater, thereby keeping the heat in the engine.
Test as you have described and report back. :y
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Thanks for the reply Dr Gollum. Will report back. Checked about new thermostat, it says OPENING TEMPERATURE 92 °C. Checked if it was correct one for engine before purchasing it.
Hopefully can get out to check data in the morning. Was given strict instructions by she who must be obeyed, that I wasn't to go under car or do any mechanical work, until she got back but letting engine warm up, with laptop connected isn't going to hurt. ;)
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Well did test today. Outside temp was showing 7c display. Checked Metoffice said temp was around that. The test was done from turning car on, that is why livedata, shows no rpm at first. The MAF was not conected throught the test. Fans were still conected.
Watching Dash temp display and data this is what I got
First time fans came on.
The dash was half way between the 90 and 100 on the solid line.
Live data for coolant shows fans kicked in at 88c
Fans went off at 80c on live data. Dash showed as 90
Second time fans came on.
Fans on at 89c shown on live data.
Dash was half way between 90 and 100 on the solid line.
Fans went off at 80c on live data, Dash was showing 90
Link to live Data
https://drive.google.com/open?id=10lL3xsBL4V4JdBvFHg5V3KLW-r5mACvp (https://drive.google.com/open?id=10lL3xsBL4V4JdBvFHg5V3KLW-r5mACvp)
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I refered to the link showing voltages for coolant temp sensor.
http://www.topbuzz.co.uk/maintenance/cts/cts.htm (http://www.topbuzz.co.uk/maintenance/cts/cts.htm)
If I am reading corect, according to that at 20c my temp sensor is only showing 10c on the live data? But wouldn't that mean that the fans should come on at nearly 100c if their is a 10c difference?
Or am i reading it wrong.
Thanks
Addy
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It does go closed loop eventually. Fans kick in a bit low though and are completely independent of the dash gauge.
I was going to suggest replacing the Ecu temp sender, but that seems to be working just fine, the reference voltage drops as the resistance increases with temperature, and it is line with the gauge sender/display.
I would suggest a replacement fan switch on the radiator as the next step and report back.
Unplugging the fans and repeating today's test will confirm this before replacing the switch, but switch the engine off as soon as the ecu sees 95 degrees to avoid damage.
Do not, under any circumstances reconnect the fans if you disable them by unplugging, as they will spin up instantly... Fingers are useful ;)
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Will do no fan data test hopefully in a while if engine cool enough, otherwise will do it in morning. Shall I reconnect MAF for this test? Is there a relay for the fans, that can be removed or would sensor connector be better?
Is the IAT sensor showing OK as it says 18c with engine off, the temp at that time was roughly 7c outside?
Thanks for all the help.
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Not sure if the MAF will have any bearing on O2 sensor behaviour :-\
But if unplugged for today's test, then leave it unplugged for consistency ;)
Being brass, the sensor will retain heat above residual air temperature. The V6 retains enough heat to warm a small village ;D
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The engine is 2ltr 16Valve, that is causing problems. My other Omega is a 2.6 and as you say the heat off that is amazing. :y
Will keep MAF off as you suggest.
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First of all don't rely on the dashboard gauge except as a sanity check. The live data should be much more accurate.
IMO your IAT and the new Circoli thermostat are still suspect.
The IAT starts at 18°C at display temp of 7°C and a live data coolant temp of 4°C.
The IAT climbs to 42°C. Even allowing for some radiated heat from the warming engine it's too high. Should be much closer to the ambient air temperature. That will affect the fueling.
Your coolant temp starts at 4°C with peaks at;
81°C before dropping back to 75°,
82°C before dropping back to 75°
90°C before dropping back to 76°
91°C before dropping back to 77°
Seems to me likely that your new Circoli thermostat is actually starting to open at around 76°C and is fully open around 90°C. Perhaps fully open even lower. The GM target is for the thermostat to remain closed until it starts to open at 92°C. 107°C should be fully open. And you've never got there.
So assuming the new coolant temperature sensor is accurate, your engine is not getting properly hot.
Where did you get the Circoli thermostat? Eurocarparts perhaps?
I know that folks are much more likely to complain when things don't work. However if you google 'Circoli thermostat', there seems to be a shed load of complaints from owners of European cars where the brand new Circoli thermostat has failed in short order and jammed open.
If it comes to replacing the thermostat again then I suggest you try a Behr, Gates or Valeo product. Or better yet an original GM (95517664) if you can find one.
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I don't have any complaints if something is wrong. I would sooner know and replace with a better manufacturer, saves chasing bad parts.
Is it possible to purchase the IAT and would anyone have the part code for it.
Will also look at getting a GM coolant Temp sensor would anyone have the proper code for it
will look at getting thermostat aswell.
Thanks for the Part no for the Thermostat. Hopefully can give the code (GM 95517664) to local vauxhall parts dept, and they can check for part fitting other vehicles. Also will ask for fitting of other cars with the codes for IAT and Coolant Temp.
Thanks again for all the advice.
Addy
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Have found a gates thermostat, incase Vauxhall don't have one. But cannot see why, seen as thermostat must fit different engines?
The thermostat I have found https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Coolant-Thermostat-TH14992G1-Gates-1338079-95517664-1338431-90501081-75182-New/233414064986 (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Coolant-Thermostat-TH14992G1-Gates-1338079-95517664-1338431-90501081-75182-New/233414064986). Does this seem the correct one?
Addy
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That's for a four cylinder Omega, and won't fit a V6.
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it’s for his 2.0 16V
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The car with the problems, is my 1995 Vauxhall Omega 2lt 16V X20XEV engine
Got all the part numbers
IAT part number siemens 5wk96061
Thermostat GM 95517664 (Thank you Enceladus for the part number)
Engine Coolant Temperature sender siemens 5WK90601 137-95
Will contact local vauxhall dealer about the parts. Is the thermostat correct for my car, incase cann't get genuine one.
Thanks for the help.
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Make an offer on this...
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vauxhall-Thermostat-And-Seal-95517664-/273931157377
If you can, get the sensors and radiator switches from VX to avoid any issues as your car is an early one without aircon. And try to get pictures of the sensors currently on your car to confirm the plugs as there looks to be alot of variations ;)
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Doctor Gollum. What sort of price, would you suggest to make as a offer for the thermostat?
My car has got Aircon fitted. The car was first registered 13 October 1995. The aircon button is seperate and has a part that illuminates when on. I will ask Vauxhall for availability and price on the sensors, also in passing about the Thermostat.
Thanks
Addy
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£20 posted, if they counter, anything less than £25 on your doorstep is fair :y
Looking at the wiring diagram for your car, it only has a single radiator switch (no aircon) , so only the three sensors to obtain. ;)
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Will offer them £10 for it, making £20 posted. But will goto 15 as a offer if needed.
My engine has a aircon motor. The pump can be seen in bottom right corner, of the photo of my engine.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1l4C6cB6AgxIAeVpB4tEAXHV-5UGeoJPv (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1l4C6cB6AgxIAeVpB4tEAXHV-5UGeoJPv)
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Ah, OK, thought it didn't have it ;)
In that case you want to both fan switches as either one could trigger the fans to come on earlier than required...
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No worries about AC, Will ask about sensors on radiator aswell. :y
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It's a bit belts and braces, but all that list will cause cool running, and if they're all underperforming, then changing one may not have much of an impact... ;)
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The car with the problems, is my 1995 Vauxhall Omega 2lt 16V X20XEV engine
Got all the part numbers
IAT part number siemens 5wk96061
Thermostat GM 95517664 (Thank you Enceladus for the part number)
Engine Coolant Temperature sender siemens 5WK90601 137-95
Will contact local vauxhall dealer about the parts. Is the thermostat correct for my car, incase cann't get genuine one.
Thanks for the help.
I believe the IAT for an Omega with X20XEV 1.0L 16V is GM 90499898 AKA Siemens 5WK90601. But I'm not certain, you need to check. Also used on Astra F and possibly the same part as Daewoo 96417820. Also I'm not saying it's definitely broken, just that the readings are implausibly high and are so far unexplained. First try removing it and cleaning the sensor element. Good quality electrical contact cleaner in an aerosol might do it.
Likewise I am not saying that the Circoli thermostat you installed is no good. However there is plenty of evidence that the engine is not heating up. I'd be considering removing it for a closer look and off car testing. I'd prefer to fit the Vauxhall one.
You've already replaced the coolant temperature sender with a Fuel Parts WS1044 version, GM #90411977. That seems to be behaving as expected. What's to say it's suspect?
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The discrepancy of 11 degrees between cold coolant and ambient air ;)
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Thank you both for the quick replies. Will clean IAT got proper MAF Cleaner from a friend I helped. Doctor Gollum do you mean IAT could be playing up when you say "The discrepancy of 11 degrees between cold coolant and ambient air"? Will get the parts together and report back. I would think it isn't worth doing anymore live data until parts are all changed.
Next thing after that I suppose would be ECM not working correct. If it isn't would I have to get a ECM from same year and model with same Part #, or would any year 2lt one work? Also would I need the keys to go with it?
Sorry for all the questions, just planning ahead. I have found a ECU testing company https://www.ecutesting.com/ (https://www.ecutesting.com/). Their testing fee is £45 +vat. They do not charge for the collection of my unit, only the return shipping. The return shipping fee within the UK is £15 +vat for most items.
Will keep intouch with progress.
Addy
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That was more of a response to Enceladus ;)
Fundamentally, replacing the IAT, Ecu coolant sensor, radiator thermo switches and thermostat should ensure that the engine temperature measurement and management behave correctly and allow the O2 sensors to function as intended. :y
The coolant temperature is clearly lower than it should be, but no one thing appears to have failed completely, hence the above list...
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Sorry thought you were telling me about the IAT. ;D Been intouch with local dealer. The IAT sensor is no longer sold, but got the part# 90499898, ECT sensor is no longer available also got part# 90411977.
There are two radiator fan switches on the system, one is £45+VAT the other is £25+VAT. One starts with code WM the other is XC so need to remove my sensor for the code.
Thermostat is £43.75+Vat.
What Manufacturer would you recommend for ECT sensor and IAT?
Spoke to a O2 specialist, to see what they can suggest along with your help.
This is their reply.
Both HC and Lambda are too high. This normally means a misfire
CO is high because catalyser isn't oxidising it to make CO2. This is normally accompanied with Low lambda reading, but yours has the opposite to this which is unusual. HC is usually too high because the catalyser has run out so to speak of O2, but the high lambda (excess osygen) reading disputes this. Something's very wrong at any rate
If the engine's been rebuilt and it seems low on power, is the valve timing correct? You'd be surprised how many engines i've seen that will still run fine after having skipped a tooth. If there's a problem check the timing belt is the correct one, i've had a belt with one too many teeth supplied to me before by GSF but they swore it was the correct one
If all that's ok then start looking at the engine management system.
Addy
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Looks like Lucas for the IAT, likewise the ecu coolant temp... £15-18 the pair.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vauxhall-Vectra-Cavalier-Omega-Radiator-Fan-Thermostat-Switch-90242277-Ident-XC/231358320401?hash=item35de07cf11:g:YNcAAOSwF1dUOoqe £5
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vauxhall-Omega-Radiator-Thermostat-Switch-Water-Temp-Switch-90458540/333431218794?hash=item4da20ca26a:g:UeQAAOSwEFhd6nZs £13
Plus the thermostat I linked to yesterday. looking at the new VX price, £30 doesn't look too bad :-\
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Getting the ecu tested seems a touch premature... :-\ the sensors and thermostat are more likely to be playing up.
Also, just to double check, any leaks from the exhaust flexi :-\
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The discrepancy of 11 degrees between cold coolant and ambient air ;)
I'm not sure where you get that from.
4°C is the reported coolant temp in the trace at startup.
7°C is the displayed temp on the dash, so ambient air temp.
7°C is also the MET office temp for the area and time of day.
18°C is the reported Intake Air Temp in the trace at startup.
Given that the engine has cooled overnight it's quite plausible that it hasn't yet warmed to ambient. Regardless, the discrepancy is only 3°C which is well within the margin of accuracy of the sensors and entirely plausible.
However the IAT is not plausible. At startup the intake air is reported as 18°C. It should be ambient or close to and it's 11°C higher. It rises steadily to a peak of 42°C. To me that's too high even allowing for the warming engine radiating heat into the incoming air. Granted the car is not moving so the radiated heat might have more effect than on a moving car.
I expect the IAT sensor is located somewhere downstream of the intake air filter, probably by the MAF, but upstream of the manifold. I suggest removing the IAT and cleaning the element with a suitable aerosol. If there's no improvement then replace it with the best available. The InterMotor/Fuel Parts version should be OK.
There isn't any evidence the ECU is faulty. It's the most reliable part of any car. If there is an issue it will be one or more sensors or the wiring loom. So don't bother getting it tested yet.
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Found this for IAT https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VAUXHALL-OMEGA-B-2-0-Air-Intake-Temperature-Sensor-94-to-01-Sender-Lucas-6238331/233441781794 (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VAUXHALL-OMEGA-B-2-0-Air-Intake-Temperature-Sensor-94-to-01-Sender-Lucas-6238331/233441781794) Seems correct?
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Coolant-Temperature-Sensor-0280130107-Bosch-Sender-Transmitter-7770239-90410792/233378898181 (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Coolant-Temperature-Sensor-0280130107-Bosch-Sender-Transmitter-7770239-90410792/233378898181).
But according to this, there are two types as my engine# is 14163204, but this says it will fit, yet only fits:-Model year from: 04/1994; Engine no. up to: 08137540.
I used the code given by vauxhall to search with. I know that there is a black capped one aswell, but it was definately a blue one on the car, with a square connector.
Are Bosch and Lucas parts still good as aftermarket?
Addy
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Exhaust is new from downpipe to back box, as old one had too many rust holes. Made sure downpipe to manifold and cat to middle section were ok, with no leaks.
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As well as renewing the cat downpipe and the exhaust you also replaced the lambda O2 sensor? Or have I got that wrong?
I don't think the Bosch 0280130107 - GM 90410792 coolant temperature sensor you linked to above is correct for your car. It's the same as Fuel Parts WS1036. V6 has Bosch sensors.
Your car has/had GM #90411977 which is Fuel Parts WS1044. Your original GM part was likely supplied by Siemens as 5WK90601.
I might add that I've seen no evidence that the Fuel Parts WS1044 sensor you recently fitted is bad.
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Yes replaced O2 sensor with a NTK OTA7L-3C4 one, as told NTK are the best. Checked on their webcat and fitted the one for the car. https://www.ngkpartfinder.co.uk/car_commercial_extra.php?id=11251 (https://www.ngkpartfinder.co.uk/car_commercial_extra.php?id=11251) The car is a 1995 2lt 16v four cylinder X20XEV first registered 13 October 1995 not a V6 :y
You are correct the ECT part was Siemens 5WK90601, Fuel Parts equivalent is WS1044. Cleaned IAT it is showing 22c with engine not running, temp outside is 10c off met site.
Found this for IAT https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VAUXHALL-OMEGA-B-2-0-Air-Intake-Temperature-Sensor-94-to-01-Sender-Lucas-6238331/233441781794 Seems correct? Are Lucas any good still?
Even with the temp sensor fluctuating as you said?
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Found this for IAT https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VAUXHALL-OMEGA-B-2-0-Air-Intake-Temperature-Sensor-94-to-01-Sender-Lucas-6238331/233441781794 (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VAUXHALL-OMEGA-B-2-0-Air-Intake-Temperature-Sensor-94-to-01-Sender-Lucas-6238331/233441781794) Seems correct?
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Coolant-Temperature-Sensor-0280130107-Bosch-Sender-Transmitter-7770239-90410792/233378898181 (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Coolant-Temperature-Sensor-0280130107-Bosch-Sender-Transmitter-7770239-90410792/233378898181).
But according to this, there are two types as my engine# is 14163204, but this says it will fit, yet only fits:-Model year from: 04/1994; Engine no. up to: 08137540.
I used the code given by vauxhall to search with. I know that there is a black capped one aswell, but it was definately a blue one on the car, with a square connector.
Are Bosch and Lucas parts still good as aftermarket?
Addy
If the car currently has a blue Bosch type plug fitted, then that surely must be the correct type to fit ;)
I would buy Bosch/Lucas/Siemens in preference to a brand I hadn't heard of. ;)
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The discrepancy of 11 degrees between cold coolant and ambient air ;)
I'm not sure where you get that from.
4°C is the reported coolant temp in the trace at startup.
7°C is the displayed temp on the dash, so ambient air temp.
7°C is also the MET office temp for the area and time of day.
18°C is the reported Intake Air Temp in the trace at startup....
However the IAT is not plausible. At startup the intake air is reported as 18°C. It should be ambient or close to and it's 11°C higher.
@Enculades,
I 'got' that from simple maths. ::)
If the ambient air temp is 7, yet without running, the IAT sees 18, the difference, by your own admission, is 11 degrees, which isn't right ::) Will you at least concede that on a cold engine, the intake and coolant temps should all, near as damn it, match the ambient temperature?
At the end of the day, either the car isn't getting properly up to temperature or it doesn't think it is and until this is resolved, anything else is confusing the issue by not resolving the temperature discrepancies as reported on the live data.
@Addy, If it was my car, I would be changing the above list... (IAT, ecu coolant temp, radiator thermo switches x2 and thermostat) Hence my advice to do so :y
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Found this for IAT https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VAUXHALL-OMEGA-B-2-0-Air-Intake-Temperature-Sensor-94-to-01-Sender-Lucas-6238331/233441781794 (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VAUXHALL-OMEGA-B-2-0-Air-Intake-Temperature-Sensor-94-to-01-Sender-Lucas-6238331/233441781794) Seems correct?
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Coolant-Temperature-Sensor-0280130107-Bosch-Sender-Transmitter-7770239-90410792/233378898181 (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Coolant-Temperature-Sensor-0280130107-Bosch-Sender-Transmitter-7770239-90410792/233378898181).
But according to this, there are two types as my engine# is 14163204, but this says it will fit, yet only fits:-Model year from: 04/1994; Engine no. up to: 08137540.
I used the code given by vauxhall to search with. I know that there is a black capped one aswell, but it was definately a blue one on the car, with a square connector.
Are Bosch and Lucas parts still good as aftermarket?
Addy
If the car currently has a blue Bosch type plug fitted, then that surely must be the correct type to fit ;)
I would buy Bosch/Lucas/Siemens in preference to a brand I hadn't heard of. ;)
But the car doesn't have a blue Bosch ECU coolant temperature sensor. The OP has posted that the original sensor fitted was a Siemens 5WK90601, which unfortunately also has a blue connector. He then replaced it with an aftermarket Fuel Parts/Intermotor sensor part # WS1044 also with a blue connector which is supposed to be equivalent to the original GM / Siemens part. Might well be that the Bosch and Siemens are functionally the same, however the Bosch and the Siemens parts have different GM part numbers which implies they are not interchangeable.
In any event there is nothing in the last data trace to suggest that the Fuel Parts sensor is not working properly. It reported the coolant as 4°C when the ambient air was around 7°C, which is entirely plausible given that the engine was left cool overnight in cold weather.
The temperature switches for the fans are a different matter. At the moment we don't know when they kick in.
It seems to me that the IAT (Intake Air Temperature) sensor is out of kilter and cleaning it has not improved the reading. Since a Vauxhall one can't be had then it's aftermarket for a replacement. Your best option would be a Siemens or a VDO re-branded Siemens. That said the Lucas one might just as good as any of the others.
And the new Circoli thermostat is still suspect. It appears to be opening to full flow too early or might be jammed. All preventing the engine from getting to operating temperature.
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The alternative has a different plug fitting. Ergo, if the loom has a Bosch plug and the sensor has a Bosch plug then it stands to reason that the sensor fitted with the Bosch plug is the correct one for that car. ::)
Or have I missed something ???
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@DG
I don't know if the Bosch coolant temperature sensor has an identical connector to the Siemens one. But they are both blue. I have one here from a Carlton or a Senator, can't remember which, and it's also blue. Seems blue designates the ECU / fuel map temperature sensor.
What I do know is that the coolant temp sensors have different GM part numbers. The Bosch would appear to be for cars with Bosch electronics. The OP's car has Simtec and the GM part number for the sensor equates to the Siemens sensor. That's why I say the Bosch part, linked to above, might not work (properly).
And in any event he's already replaced his original Siemens sensor with an Intermotor/Fuel Parts sensor. The I/FP catalogue says their product is equivalent to the original Siemens sensor. The Bosch sensor is equivalent to a different Fuel Parts sensor.
And once again why replace the original sensor again with yet another aftermarket sensor since there is nothing to suggest that the newly installed Fuel Parts sensor is not working properly? If it really needs to be replaced again he'd be best served with a genuine GM Vauxhall sensor or a genuine Siemens sensor. In fact why not re-install the original Siemens sensor and see how that behaves.
The bill for replacing parts is mounting up with no real progress.
@addy
I also notice that the battery is a bit flat. The resting voltage is 11.6V and the voltage dropped to below 9.0V whilst cranking. I'd expect it won't start the car much longer. I'd charge it properly or you might be needing a new battery as well.
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Because you can no longer buy the GM one ::)
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@addy
Hope it was you that bought this thermostat?
Make an offer on this...
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vauxhall-Thermostat-And-Seal-95517664-/273931157377
If you can, get the sensors and radiator switches from VX to avoid any issues as your car is an early one without aircon. And try to get pictures of the sensors currently on your car to confirm the plugs as there looks to be alot of variations ;)
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It was me, considering the price of Vauxhall the £30 asking price was good. Also got a Lucas IAT to replace the old one. So hopefully over the weekend will be able to fit them, and see what happens. :y
Thanks for asking.
Addy
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:y