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[JamesV6CDX]

2.6 V6 Estate,  I didn't really need it but have purchased from Terbs with a known starting problem, to see if I can save it from the scrapper.

When I picked it up, it started first time, remained running, and went home like it had been stung. I stopped at Tesco's en route, and she started without hesitation when I came out.

The following day, I started it up to move it on the drive, and again it started fine. Because my mind was elsewhere, I forgot to let it get a bit warm before turning it off, and killed the engine after it had only run for a very brief period.

The next day, it wouldn't start. Cranked, wouldn't fire.

I thought perhaps, I'd flooded it, so left it 48 hours. Still didn't start. Cranking at WOT didn't make any difference.

Today I fitted the spare crank sensor Terbs gave me - a used genuine one from the Omega spares outfit near heathrow. Had to do it from above, as the car was on grass 

Still no difference, won't go.

The tank is over half full, and with the fuel feed line removed from the rail, it spurts fuel upon turning the ignition, so I don't think there's a fuel issue.

Testing has shown however, there's no spark at any of the plugs on the 1-3-5 bank when cranking, and I suspect 2-4-6 is the same.

The original crank sensor was pattern, fitted a year ago, so was prime suspect. I wonder if I'm just unlucky, and the replacement is also goosed? (There is evidence of where it's been crimped behind oil cooler pipes, so it's likely to be an old one, and removal/transit may well have finished it off).

My obvious next step is to fit a new GM crank sensor, unless anyone has any other ideas about what would cause lack of spark?

I should add, no codes stored either before or after sensor change.

Cheers

[mantamania]

Hi, I had the same problem a couple of years ago. The baffling thing was the lack of fault codes. I replaced the crank sensor with a Delphi one and I have had no problems.

[powerslinky]

James ,   it may be best to ask Terbs if this was what was happening before he fitted the new  replacement crank sensor . 
We all know that used ones are a lottery as damage can occur on removal /re fit etc.
And pattern ( seems it was fitted with one of these ) have a life span of days , weeks , months or years 
Also what about an immobiliser issue ?  My money is on CS though 

no codes usually means CS on 2.6 /3.2 IMO 

[zirk]

Any Codes?, Immobilizer issue?

Check the separate black Earth lead to the main ECU is not loose, and you can also use a jump lead from the ECU Housing back to the Battery Neg to rule out any Earting problems, I had similar.

Also Ive had ECU issues on the V6 DBW more than once now, especially on cars that have been left stood for a while, so assuming you have access to another 2.6 or 3.2, temporary swop the ECU, Transponder Box and Key Chip onto it, its only a 10 min job, this should prove the ECU is good and rule out any transponder issues, label up your parts from each car, just in case you have a brain freeze moment. 

[TheBoy]

I've seen none starting on a 3.2 that turned out to be ECU, in the case I've seen, accompanied by excessive chatter from the TB, and diags equip constantly disconnecting.

In this particular case, the suspicion was on an old style battery charger being used without disconnecting battery (but might get similar with jumpstarting) - not sure if Terbs knows if this has happened in his ownership?


But CS is a likely - as last time Terbs had this issue (on this car?) that was the issue...

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

I would swap crank sensors with the one on your other car and see if the symptoms also swap cars.
Otherwise, as mentioned possible ECU. when I was breaking Omegas I sold a couple of 3.2 ECU,s to people with these type of symptoms, and replacement cured the problem.

[Enceladus]

If the original crank sensor was replaced (12 months ago?) and has since been giving trouble it might be that it's the wrong one. As I recall there are two different versions with an oval connector fitted to V6s. One is Bosch GM-part 90542073 and the other is Siemens-GM-part 90492061. Although they both fit apparently they are not interchangeable.

There is also a crank sensor with a rectangular 3 pole connector. That's GM-part 90492006, not sure of the original manufacturer or application. Possibly 3.2 V6?

Is there anything to help identify the one you removed and the one from Heathrow?

[Chazza12]

I had a problem vauxhall a few years ago would not start. been stud for 3 years in a garage, would just turn over and over no codes nothing. anyway it turned out to be the oil pressure sensor. replaced it and engine came to life after that. think it was 2003-4 astra 3.2. if that helps. 

[terry paget]

Any Codes?, Immobilizer issue?

Check the separate black Earth lead to the main ECU is not loose, and you can also use a jump lead from the ECU Housing back to the Battery Neg to rule out any Earting problems, I had similar.

Also Ive had ECU issues on the V6 DBW more than once now, especially on cars that have been left stood for a while, so assuming you have access to another 2.6 or 3.2, temporary swop the ECU, Transponder Box and Key Chip onto it, its only a 10 min job, this should prove the ECU is good and rule out any transponder issues, label up your parts from each car, just in case you have a brain freeze moment. 

Is the transponder box the ignition switch surround? That test is worth knowing. I had a dead 24v Senator, which I cured by swopping ECUs with a good Senator. Not so easy to do on an Omega with fittd immodiliser.

[zirk]

Any Codes?, Immobilizer issue?

Check the separate black Earth lead to the main ECU is not loose, and you can also use a jump lead from the ECU Housing back to the Battery Neg to rule out any Earting problems, I had similar.

Also Ive had ECU issues on the V6 DBW more than once now, especially on cars that have been left stood for a while, so assuming you have access to another 2.6 or 3.2, temporary swop the ECU, Transponder Box and Key Chip onto it, its only a 10 min job, this should prove the ECU is good and rule out any transponder issues, label up your parts from each car, just in case you have a brain freeze moment. 

Is the transponder box the ignition switch surround? That test is worth knowing. I had a dead 24v Senator, which I cured by swopping ECUs with a good Senator. Not so easy to do on an Omega with fittd immodiliser.

Yep, well thats what I call it anyway, no doubt there a tech name for it, Immobilizer Detector Pick Up Ring?.

It really is  probably just as easy to do as a Senny, if you have access to another set up its worth doing just to rule it out as it can be a bit of a Brain Teaser.

My money is still on the Crank Sensor, same deal if youve got a known good CS at held. But I reckon you can swap out the ECU quicker than getting underneath to the CS so would be rude not to.

[terry paget]

Any Codes?, Immobilizer issue?

Check the separate black Earth lead to the main ECU is not loose, and you can also use a jump lead from the ECU Housing back to the Battery Neg to rule out any Earting problems, I had similar.

Also Ive had ECU issues on the V6 DBW more than once now, especially on cars that have been left stood for a while, so assuming you have access to another 2.6 or 3.2, temporary swop the ECU, Transponder Box and Key Chip onto it, its only a 10 min job, this should prove the ECU is good and rule out any transponder issues, label up your parts from each car, just in case you have a brain freeze moment. 

Is the transponder box the ignition switch surround? That test is worth knowing. I had a dead 24v Senator, which I cured by swopping ECUs with a good Senator. Not so easy to do on an Omega with fittd immodiliser.

Yep, well thats what I call it anyway, no doubt there a tech name for it, Immobilizer Detector Pick Up Ring?.

It really is  probably just as easy to do as a Senny, if you have access to another set up its worth doing just to rule it out as it can be a bit of a Brain Teaser.

My money is still on the Crank Sensor, same deal if youve got a known good CS at held. But I reckon you can swap out the ECU quicker than getting underneath to the CS so would be rude not to.

Thanks.
I take off my hat to James for changing the crank sensor from above as car was parked on grass. A few years ago I confessed I did not carry a spare crank sensor because I doubted I could change one at the roadside. TB said he had done it, another member retorted he could do it with the car on its wheels. I have just peered under my bonnet, and could not even see the crank sensor. Well done, James.

[Bigron]

Ask Albs how he did mine, despite its being a tight bugger! 

Ron.

[zirk]

Any Codes?, Immobilizer issue?

Check the separate black Earth lead to the main ECU is not loose, and you can also use a jump lead from the ECU Housing back to the Battery Neg to rule out any Earting problems, I had similar.

Also Ive had ECU issues on the V6 DBW more than once now, especially on cars that have been left stood for a while, so assuming you have access to another 2.6 or 3.2, temporary swop the ECU, Transponder Box and Key Chip onto it, its only a 10 min job, this should prove the ECU is good and rule out any transponder issues, label up your parts from each car, just in case you have a brain freeze moment. 

Is the transponder box the ignition switch surround? That test is worth knowing. I had a dead 24v Senator, which I cured by swopping ECUs with a good Senator. Not so easy to do on an Omega with fittd immodiliser.

Yep, well thats what I call it anyway, no doubt there a tech name for it, Immobilizer Detector Pick Up Ring?.

It really is  probably just as easy to do as a Senny, if you have access to another set up its worth doing just to rule it out as it can be a bit of a Brain Teaser.

My money is still on the Crank Sensor, same deal if youve got a known good CS at held. But I reckon you can swap out the ECU quicker than getting underneath to the CS so would be rude not to.

Thanks.
I take off my hat to James for changing the crank sensor from above as car was parked on grass. A few years ago I confessed I did not carry a spare crank sensor because I doubted I could change one at the roadside. TB said he had done it, another member retorted he could do it with the car on its wheels. I have just peered under my bonnet, and could not even see the crank sensor. Well done, James.

If James can change the Crank Sensor on a V6 from above without getting underneath it, I'd like to shake his hand, preferably while Hes not upside down.. 

[Bigron]

Ask Albs how he did mine, despite its being a tight bugger! 

Ron.

Er, that's the crank sensor bolt, not Albs!

Ron.

[zirk]

Ask Albs how he did mine, despite its being a tight bugger! 

Ron.

Er, that's the crank sensor bolt, not Albs!

Ron.

Too late now Ron, youve said it, its engraved in Black and White Text till the death of the Forum.   

[Kevin Wood]

Might be worth checking the resistance of the crank sensor. It should be 600-1000 Ohms. This is between pin 1 and 2 of the connector. Pin 3 should be open circuit (it's a screen).

If that looks  OK try waggling the wire to see if it's intermittent

You should also see the same resistance between pins 59 and 10 at the ECU connector with the crank sensor plugged in - just in case there's a problem in the loom between engine and ECU.

You can also check the output with an oscilloscope while cranking.

But - neither 2nd hand crank sensors nor pattern ones are a great idea. I appreciate you'll be trying to get this mobile on a tight budget, but sometimes you have to bite the bullet. At least the above will give you some confidence that you won't be wasting your money.

I'd also be checking the +12V feed to the two coil packs with ignition on (pin 2 - black and red wire).

In addition, swap the engine management main relay if you have a spare (purple one next to the fuel pump relay - the one furthest from the wing).

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

Ron, you told me what happens in Witham stays in Witham.         
Yours was weird. I have never experienced a crank sensor bolt done up so tight. I had doubts I was going to be able to undo it, but we got there in the end.

[neil74]

I suppose I was lucky when I swapped the second hand one that had been rattling around the boot of the 3.2 for months into the 2.5 and it started first time and still does..

[terry paget]

I suppose I was lucky when I swapped the second hand one that had been rattling around the boot of the 3.2 for months into the 2.5 and it started first time and still does..

Could be. I bought a cheap crank sensor for my 2.5 off e-bay for £20. I read the forum guide on 2.5 crank sensors
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=96562.0
was so worried I bought a new Siemens crank sensor from a Vauxhall dealer and fitted that. It failed within 4 weeks, so I refitted the original £20 sensor and it has not failed yet.

[Bigron]

Ron, you told me what happens in Witham stays in Witham.         
Yours was weird. I have never experienced a crank sensor bolt done up so tight. I had doubts I was going to be able to undo it, but we got there in the end.

As any good (bad?) politician might say, I have no recollection of making such a statement; however, if I have inadvertantly breached National Security, you have my total and abject apology.

Ron.

[terry paget]

Hi James. You appear to have done all the obvious things and were brave to take this car on. You clearly had sparks for 2 days.
I trust the new crank sensor is fully home. It beats me how you installed it from above.

Other thoughts:
cam sensor?
immobiliser: have you tried the spare key? I have known loss of transponder;
ECU failure; you could substitute known good one as suggested;
poor connection or broken wire;
LPG kit problem.

I wish you the best of luck. If anyone can crack it, you can.

[omegod]

We never got to the bottom of Tony H's 2.5 non starter, only thing I've seen since was someone on her who found a bit of corrosion on the ECU plugs, bit of a scrub with contact cleaner restored normal service

Are these now getting to an age where things that weren't a problem are showing themselves I wonder, aged electrics and all that ?

[Terbs]

James...I am so sorry to hear that the car is not starting.
A year (or so) I posted on here that the car did not start, James came over, done all the checks, and put on a new (cheap) CS which was purchased just for test purposes, to be replaced at a later date at my leisure. Car started first time and ran fine from then on. However one day the EM light came on (for milli seconds) went off and car continued to run ok. Took the car over to TB who took it for a gentle  tootle around Brackley. It ran fine and probably had a good de-coke !!
I had intended to take it to Dorset, but changed my mind and used the saloon. When we got back, (month and a half later) it did not start and I wore the battery down a bit (but not anywhere near flat). So I took the battery off, gave it a full charge, put it on...car started first go. Been out in it and using it with no problems. But because of the non start, I bought a CS from Steve (OSP).
After the drama of the 2.5 breaking down, and my depressed state of mind, I sat indoors and said...That's it, both estates are to be scrapped. Changed my mind on the 2.6, as to my knowledge, there was nothing wrong with it, so offered it on here. James jumped in, took it, and as he said the next day..' That goes really well, doesn't it.'
The Battery has never been charged on the car, and previously it had never let me down, until the time James fitted the new CS, and it started first time.

That is the history prior to James picking the car up

PS....if you give up and scrap it...I got £189 for the 2.5 estate !!

[TheBoy]

Took the car over to TB who took it for a gentle  tootle around Brackley. It ran fine and probably had a good de-coke !!

Ah, its that one, is it, I remember it, and the nervous passenger


IIRC, weren't we slightly concerned MAF might be suspect (or was that somebody elses car  )


JV6CDX - if the MAF has sent the trims way off, you should be able to tell with most code readers. If you haven't got a live data capable reader, put a fault on the car (unplug multiram - turn ign on), then remove fault and use a OBDII reader to clear codes - that will also reset trims.  If that then starts, keep eye on MAF and trims.

[Terbs]

Yes TB, it was that one...you were playing with the maf, and said it was a little under powered  

Oh yes...nervous passenger. When I got home I was not allowed indoors for half an hour until the smell of sh*te had disappeared !!! 

[TheBoy]

Oh yes...nervous passenger. When I got home I was not allowed indoors for half an hour until the smell of sh*te had disappeared !!! 

And to think, I didn't even use Cruise Control...   ...not that it ever works on your cars

[Terbs]

Oh yes...nervous passenger. When I got home I was not allowed indoors for half an hour until the smell of sh*te had disappeared !!! 

And to think, I didn't even use Cruise Control...   ...not that it ever works on your cars

Off topic....but oooooooh, that was a bit below the belt !!

[JamesV6CDX]

But - neither 2nd hand crank sensors nor pattern ones are a great idea. I appreciate you'll be trying to get this mobile on a tight budget, but sometimes you have to bite the bullet. At least the above will give you some confidence that you won't be wasting your money.

Thanks Kevin

The replacement sensor came with the car, so it was just a case of "nothing to lose" by plugging it in.
I wouldn't buy used

[JamesV6CDX]

Terbs!!

I am over the moon with the car, and bought it knowing the issue was there this isn't a complaint in any way, shape, of form, just a technical discussion on what the problem might be

[Kevin Wood]

Oh yes...nervous passenger. When I got home I was not allowed indoors for half an hour until the smell of sh*te had disappeared !!! 

And to think, I didn't even use Cruise Control...   ...not that it ever works on your cars

Off topic....but oooooooh, that was a bit below the belt !!

Don't worry, Tony. I'm already downloading Mazda handbooks "just in case"...

[JamesV6CDX]

Stroke of luck.

What did I find whilst sorting some stuff in my garage this afternoon? A brand new crank sensor!

Fitted it - along with the recharged battery - and the beast started straight up without even thinking about it

I'm just letting her idle on the drive and get up to temperature.

Maybe unrelated - the first time I started it up, the battery light remained on, and didn't go off.

I turned off the engine, removed the key, and restarted it - and the light went straight off as usual.

Anything to do with the battery being off, or likely the alternator is failing?

It is -5 outside.

I will move the car off the grass, and tighten the bolt in the crank sensor from underneath... I couldn't feel my fingers enough to tighten it up from above, this time 

[powerslinky]

Sounds like a result James 

[Terbs]

James....I did put a new regulator on the alternator a while back. Last check the other day, charging at 14.4volts at idle.

[JamesV6CDX]

It seems fine after a few restarts, I wonder if it was just the extreme cold

I'll keep an eye over the next few days. I'm going to try and get her in for MOT tomorrow

[JamesV6CDX]

Now with the MOT Garage, who will fit it in at some point during tomorrow

I know it's going to fail on exhaust, and possibly the inner edges of the front discs, but at least the failure sheet will give me a starting point.

Some would argue, why would I present a car for an MOT with a known issue that will fail the test, but, the logic is, Omegas are getting to such an age that, I'm not going to start buying new brakes and full exhaust systems, only to then find (hypothetically) there is a major failure such as the sills

Plus, it'll be a free retest, if fixed within ten days.

We shall see

[Kevin Wood]

Maybe unrelated - the first time I started it up, the battery light remained on, and didn't go off.

I turned off the engine, removed the key, and restarted it - and the light went straight off as usual.

Anything to do with the battery being off, or likely the alternator is failing?

Mine does this VERY occasionally. I think the regulator throws a wobbly for some reason. Mine has also had a (pattern) replacement reg fitted.

[powerslinky]

Now with the MOT Garage, who will fit it in at some point during tomorrow

I know it's going to fail on exhaust, and possibly the inner edges of the front discs, but at least the failure sheet will give me a starting point.

Some would argue, why would I present a car for an MOT with a known issue that will fail the test, but, the logic is, Omegas are getting to such an age that, I'm not going to start buying new brakes and full exhaust systems, only to then find (hypothetically) there is a major failure such as the sills

Plus, it'll be a free retest, if fixed within ten days.

We shall see

All sounds perfectly logical to me James . . .  find out if anything else is wrong before you spend £200 ish . .     then Free re test with new exhaust & discs fitted  . .
Good luck with it 

[Automaticman]

Good luck