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[STEMO]

A worthy idea, but how the hell will it work in practice. Let's take the supermarket I use most, Asda. They must sell thousands of plastic bottles every week, from water to soft drinks to milk to ketchup. What about a multi-pack of water with 24 bottles? Will you pay the 20odd pence on each? That would make the deposit more expensive than the water. Where are are they going to store all of the returns?
These are just a few of the problems that I can see, no doubt you lot will see a lot more. We've got to do something, but really?

[STEMO]

I've just had a tot up. I would have to return around 25-30 bottles a week. 

[Gaffers]

It works fine in Germany and elsewhere.  No reason why we shouldn't have it, in fact it should have been done years ago.

Anyone who is against it is welcome to come with me on a dive around the UK coast to see for yourself the amount of plastic and rubbish in our seas.

[STEMO]

Wow! On the news now, it's glass and cans too. Young children could become very rich on the back of this. It's like going back 50 years for me.

[STEMO]

It works fine in Germany and elsewhere.  No reason why we shouldn't have it, in fact it should have been done years ago.

Anyone who is against it is welcome to come with me on a dive around the UK coast to see for yourself the amount of plastic and rubbish in our seas.

Which dives do you frequent, then? 

[Gaffers]

It works fine in Germany and elsewhere.  No reason why we shouldn't have it, in fact it should have been done years ago.

Anyone who is against it is welcome to come with me on a dive around the UK coast to see for yourself the amount of plastic and rubbish in our seas.

Which dives do you frequent, then? 

All the best ones

[STEMO]

Don't get me wrong, Matt, as I said earlier, something has got to be done. But this proposal throws up so many questions.
Here's a couple of things:Once you've paid your deposit, you'll never get it back, because the refund you receive will just pay for your next deposit.
If I choose not to recycle, will the council still have a glass/plastic/tin can collection? If so, will Eastern Europeans buy flat beds and empty your bins before the council gets to them?
Can I recycle cans that I buy in the corner shop at the supermarket?
If it takes me half an hour to do my shopping now, will that now take half a day, providing the machines don't break down?

Can I get a government loan to pay my first deposit? I do buy a lot of cans and bottles.

[STEMO]

Oh.......and should I start hoarding now, building up a nice pile in my back garden? Could be a right little earner. 

[Varche]

Recycling is reasonably good in Spain. We don't have refuse collection so use the street recycling in nearby town. You just need to get organised OR throw it out of your car window.

Cannot see why a scheme wouldn't work.

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

As kids we would return the old glass 'pop bottles' and get 3d or 6d back.

These bottles were then placed out back in the yard.

Being an enterprislng young chap I would shin over the 6ft wall and 'reclaim them' before taking them back to the same shopkeeper far another 3d or 6d. 

[Gaffers]

Don't get me wrong, Matt, as I said earlier, something has got to be done. But this proposal throws up so many questions.
Here's a couple of things:Once you've paid your deposit, you'll never get it back, because the refund you receive will just pay for your next deposit.
If I choose not to recycle, will the council still have a glass/plastic/tin can collection? If so, will Eastern Europeans buy flat beds and empty your bins before the council gets to them?
Can I recycle cans that I buy in the corner shop at the supermarket?
If it takes me half an hour to do my shopping now, will that now take half a day, providing the machines don't break down?

Can I get a government loan to pay my first deposit? I do buy a lot of cans and bottles.

Right, here is how it works in Germany and there is no reason why we cannot do the same:

- You pay a deposit on return-compatible bottles only.  These are generally heavier and stronger meaning they can be used a few times before chucking.  Non-compatible bottles do not have a deposit but I think they might have a surcharge on them or a higher rate of VAT.
- When you return the bottles you scan them in to a machine either one by one, or in the case of bottled beer this can be by the crate which is scanned, checked and weighed by the machine.  You get a ticket for the items you return which is 100% of the deposit price paid.
- You can either use this ticket to get money off your next purchase at the till of that very shop or get money back at the till.  Most use against their next shop, the only time i asked for cash was when I left Germany although I did keep a couple of crates for the brewery.
- The only items you put in your recycling bin are those which do not require a deposit, the surcharge is ring-fenced toward the recycling costs.  Recycling is very strict in Germany but it is uniform across each state.  if you have recycling items in the general rubbish bin, or visa-versa, they are not collected until you sort out the problem.
- In some cities there are voluntary boxes in the street where you can put bottles, etc which have a deposit paid and the homeless can take them to get the money.  This is good if you are passing through and you dont want to carry an empty bottle all the way home.

[deviator]

In Yankistan, the supermarkets have a machine outside. You scan the barcode as you are placing the item into the recycling bin. Once you've done, you hit print and get a barcoded piece of paper with the value of the returns on it to spend in the shop.

I can only presume that as we would be dealing with the recycling ourselves, our council tax will be reduced as we won't need the recycling bin collected. (I have no idea how I wrote that without laughing uncontrollably).

[STEMO]

Do you really think our poor, destitute government are going to fork out to put recycling machines on every Main Street in the country? I presume these machines have a receptacle behind them for the bottles....like an effing great skip. Space might be a problem, and who empties them?

Call me cynical, cause I am, but I'll believe it when I see it.

[ronnyd]

With all the plastic floating in the seas around our coast, perhaps our fishing fleet should be trawling/fishing for that, instead of, er fish? Might be more lucrative.

[STEMO]

With all the plastic floating in the seas around our coast, perhaps our fishing fleet should be trawling/fishing for that, instead of, er fish? Might be more lucrative.

At 20p per bottle, you're probably right, Ronny 

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

Do you really think our poor, destitute government are going to fork out to put recycling machines on every Main Street in the country? I presume these machines have a receptacle behind them for the bottles....like an effing great skip. Space might be a problem, and who empties them?

Call me cynical, cause I am, but I'll believe it when I see it.

That nice Mr Guffers chappie has just explained how it will work in practice.......and he is far brighter than you.

So, no need to be cynical.

[STEMO]

Do you really think our poor, destitute government are going to fork out to put recycling machines on every Main Street in the country? I presume these machines have a receptacle behind them for the bottles....like an effing great skip. Space might be a problem, and who empties them?

Call me cynical, cause I am, but I'll believe it when I see it.

That nice Mr Guffers chappie has just explained how it will work in practice.......and he is far brighter than you.

So, no need to be cynical.

Ermmmm.......yes. 

[Entwood]

Do you really think our poor, destitute government are going to fork out to put recycling machines on every Main Street in the country? I presume these machines have a receptacle behind them for the bottles....like an effing great skip. Space might be a problem, and who empties them?

Call me cynical, cause I am, but I'll believe it when I see it.

Nope, and why should they .. MAKE the producers of the pollution .. the makers/users of the plastic bottles pay for the recycling costs... at present they pay for less than 5% of the cost of clearing up the rubbish they produce ... I have absolutely no problem with Coca-Cola PLC (and many others) being forced to cover ALL the costs of clearing up after them.

I also think this was a pretty nifty idea, if the supermarkets want to cover everything in plastic, make them responsible for getting rid of it.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-43559636

[STEMO]

Do you really think our poor, destitute government are going to fork out to put recycling machines on every Main Street in the country? I presume these machines have a receptacle behind them for the bottles....like an effing great skip. Space might be a problem, and who empties them?

Call me cynical, cause I am, but I'll believe it when I see it.

Nope, and why should they .. MAKE the producers of the pollution .. the makers/users of the plastic bottles pay for the recycling costs... at present they pay for less than 5% of the cost of clearing up the rubbish they produce ... I have absolutely no problem with Coca-Cola PLC (and many others) being forced to cover ALL the costs of clearing up after them.

I also think this was a pretty nifty idea, if the supermarkets want to cover everything in plastic, make them responsible for getting rid of it.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-43559636

By 'Make the producers pay' you mean 'Make the consumers pay', because it will all get passed on.

[STEMO]

As for the plastic attack, a spokesman for Greenpeace said that getting rid of plastic packaging on perishable foodstuffs was a stupid idea, as our streets would be filled with rotting fruit and vegetables.
Before we ban plastic, we need to have an alternative.

[Entwood]

As for the plastic attack, a spokesman for Greenpeace said that getting rid of plastic packaging on perishable foodstuffs was a stupid idea, as our streets would be filled with rotting fruit and vegetables.
Before we ban plastic, we need to have an alternative.

Just shows how stupid Greenpeace are then ...  I buy fresh vegetables from a greengrocer .. not a sign of a plastic wrap/bag anywhere ... food doesn't "rot" as I walk out the door ... likewise I buy meat from a butchers... comes in a piece of greaseproof paper .. no sign of a plastic tray/lump of stuff to absorb the blood/and a plastic wrap over the lot anywhere ... doesn't go off as I walk out the door ....

IMHO some foods go "off" faster when wrapped in plastic as they don't "breathe" but I lack any scientific proof ......   

[STEMO]

Greenpeace are far from stupid, Nigel, they just realise that 95% of the population don't live in a quiet area with greengrocers and butchers. They live in urban sprawls without a greengrocer or butcher within five miles. They also buy for large families, not a couple, and they are also time-pressed, in and out is the name of the game.
I would suggest that your little corner of the world is not representative.

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

I bought a new electric toothbrush recently.

The plastic packaging was complete overkill.

[Entwood]

Greenpeace are far from stupid, Nigel, they just realise that 95% of the population don't live in a quiet area with greengrocers and butchers. They live in urban sprawls without a greengrocer or butcher within five miles. They also buy for large families, not a couple, and they are also time-pressed, in and out is the name of the game.
I would suggest that your little corner of the world is not representative.

That's not what you said ...

As for the plastic attack, a spokesman for Greenpeace said that getting rid of plastic packaging on perishable foodstuffs was a stupid idea, as our streets would be filled with rotting fruit and vegetables.
Before we ban plastic, we need to have an alternative.

That's what I answered .... 

[Bigron]

As for the plastic attack, a spokesman for Greenpeace said that getting rid of plastic packaging on perishable foodstuffs was a stupid idea, as our streets would be filled with rotting fruit and vegetables.
Before we ban plastic, we need to have an alternative.

Just shows how stupid Greenpeace are then ...  I buy fresh vegetables from a greengrocer .. not a sign of a plastic wrap/bag anywhere ... food doesn't "rot" as I walk out the door ... likewise I buy meat from a butchers... comes in a piece of greaseproof paper .. no sign of a plastic tray/lump of stuff to absorb the blood/and a plastic wrap over the lot anywhere ... doesn't go off as I walk out the door ....

IMHO some foods go "off" faster when wrapped in plastic as they don't "breathe" but I lack any scientific proof ......   

I'm with you on this, Nige, and not only for the reasons you state, but for most of their erroneous, pseudo-scientific reasoning regarding the environment ant the polution thereof.

Ron.

[STEMO]

Greenpeace are far from stupid, Nigel, they just realise that 95% of the population don't live in a quiet area with greengrocers and butchers. They live in urban sprawls without a greengrocer or butcher within five miles. They also buy for large families, not a couple, and they are also time-pressed, in and out is the name of the game.
I would suggest that your little corner of the world is not representative.

That's not what you said ...

As for the plastic attack, a spokesman for Greenpeace said that getting rid of plastic packaging on perishable foodstuffs was a stupid idea, as our streets would be filled with rotting fruit and vegetables.
Before we ban plastic, we need to have an alternative.

That's what I answered .... 

Fair point, but....a lot people have , for various reasons, to buy perishables that will last the week, and I can't see any other alternative to plastic. This was the point Greenpeace was making.

[Varche]

Do you really think our poor, destitute government are going to fork out to put recycling machines on every Main Street in the country? I presume these machines have a receptacle behind them for the bottles....like an effing great skip. Space might be a problem, and who empties them?

Call me cynical, cause I am, but I'll believe it when I see it.

The machines on UK TV today that accompanied just about every report seem to crush the item. No reduction in your council tax as they still need to be "emptied" Probably save time as not having to collect from every house.

Packaging is a mindset.  Who notices whether their six eggs come in a plastic box or a cardboard one. Who cares. So why aren't they all cardboard. It just needs a will.

I personally would put 50p on every item with the carrot of reducing it to say 20p when people actually stop throwing empties in becks, rivers, parks. The refund could then be 40p  to get 10 p towards the capital cost of machines and later 18 p

I can see bottled water companies being the big losers. In Spain they have just introduced legislation to oblige bars,cafes, restaurants to provide free water . many in our area have been doing that for years anyway. Also the airports have to lower their astronomical charges for a bottle of water. Sell shares you hold in bottled water companies!

Do you think (regardless of which side you sit on re Brexit ) that there will be resistance purely because Gove is behind it?   

[Varche]

Greenpeace are far from stupid, Nigel, they just realise that 95% of the population don't live in a quiet area with greengrocers and butchers. They live in urban sprawls without a greengrocer or butcher within five miles. They also buy for large families, not a couple, and they are also time-pressed, in and out is the name of the game.
I would suggest that your little corner of the world is not representative.

That's not what you said ...

As for the plastic attack, a spokesman for Greenpeace said that getting rid of plastic packaging on perishable foodstuffs was a stupid idea, as our streets would be filled with rotting fruit and vegetables.
Before we ban plastic, we need to have an alternative.

That's what I answered .... 

Fair point, but....a lot people have , for various reasons, to buy perishables that will last the week, and I can't see any other alternative to plastic. This was the point Greenpeace was making.

Why ? Death of the local shop? Inability to shop twice a week? Mindset of one "big shop". People in hot countries still shop every day. There will be alternatives but no one has bothered to do them yet as plastic has been so easy.

[STEMO]

Do you really think our poor, destitute government are going to fork out to put recycling machines on every Main Street in the country? I presume these machines have a receptacle behind them for the bottles....like an effing great skip. Space might be a problem, and who empties them?

Call me cynical, cause I am, but I'll believe it when I see it.

The machines on UK TV today that accompanied just about every report seem to crush the item. No reduction in your council tax as they still need to be "emptied" Probably save time as not having to collect from every house.

Packaging is a mindset.  Who notices whether their six eggs come in a plastic box or a cardboard one. Who cares. So why aren't they all cardboard. It just needs a will.

I personally would put 50p on every item with the carrot of reducing it to say 20p when people actually stop throwing empties in becks, rivers, parks. The refund could then be 40p  to get 10 p towards the capital cost of machines and later 18 p

I can see bottled water companies being the big losers. In Spain they have just introduced legislation to oblige bars,cafes, restaurants to provide free water . many in our area have been doing that for years anyway. Also the airports have to lower their astronomical charges for a bottle of water. Sell shares you hold in bottled water companies!

Do you think (regardless of which side you sit on re Brexit ) that there will be resistance purely because Gove is behind it?   

There are a lot of socio-economic factors to take into account too, El Varche, some people are pushed to the limit with their weekly shop as it is, they really can't be expected to start paying a 'plastic tax'.
Cue groans of 'people on benefits shouldn't be buying pop'.
It really needs to be well thought out and, with people like me playing devils advocate, politicians shouldn't just jump in and make a complete horlicks of it.......hopefully.


I shall fire off a stiff letter to The Times.

[Varche]

Dear Mr anti plastic tax crusader, When you do put a copy of it on here. 

[STEMO]

One last aside before I go to the dentists (eek ).
As I'm sure you are all well aware...we are not Spain, or Germany and definitely not Norway. We are British.....with all the 'f**k off' attitude that goes with it.

[Varche]

Good, while he has gone ..... It doesn't matter which country you live in, human beings are very similar in being lazy and doing the easiest thing unless there are incentives.

Which is easiest throwing a carton out of your car or taking it to a bin?

Which is easiest taking your own cup/mug to Starbucks or using one of their throw away jobs.

Keep Britain tidy campaign worked - at least for a while. Time for a mindset change.

[Viral_Jim]

One last aside before I go to the dentists (eek ).
As I'm sure you are all well aware...we are not Spain, or Germany and definitely not Norway. We are British.....with all the 'f**k off' attitude that goes with it.

Not when it comes to saving a copper or two it doesn't. Look at the plastic bag tax. Wickes (the only company I have first hand knowledge of) cut the number of bags they used by around 95% off the back of it 

[STEMO]

Good, while he has gone ..... It doesn't matter which country you live in, human beings are very similar in being lazy and doing the easiest thing unless there are incentives.

Which is easiest throwing a carton out of your car or taking it to a bin?

Which is easiest taking your own cup/mug to Starbucks or using one of their throw away jobs.

Keep Britain tidy campaign worked - at least for a while. Time for a mindset change.

It's nowt to do with you, you are foreign and know nothing of our customs. 

[Varche]

Are you in pain?   

[Sir Tigger KC]

With all the plastic floating in the seas around our coast, perhaps our fishing fleet should be trawling/fishing for that, instead of, er fish? Might be more lucrative.

At 20p per bottle, you're probably right, Ronny 

Nah the EU would try and control it and insist that plastic not in quota would have to be thrown back.   

[ronnyd]

With all the plastic floating in the seas around our coast, perhaps our fishing fleet should be trawling/fishing for that, instead of, er fish? Might be more lucrative.

At 20p per bottle, you're probably right, Ronny 

Nah the EU would try and control it and insist that plastic not in quota would have to be thrown back.   

That would be a first. The other EU countries actually conforming to the rules.

[Doctor Gollum]

We already have the facility for recycling plastic, glass and even cardboard... 

It's call a recycling bin and gets emptied once a fortnight. It is also twice the volume of our regular bin... Which also gets emptied once a fortnight... 

[aaronjb]

It's call a recycling bin and gets emptied once a fortnight. It is also twice the volume of our regular bin... Which also gets emptied once a fortnight... 

We still have those stupid plastic crates up here in the frozen wastes of the north* - I wish they'd switch to wheelie bins like I had darn sarf, then maybe the streets wouldn't fill with (so much) rubbish**

*midlands, really, I know.
**I don't think it would stop the mountains of cheap Polish larger cans I find in the local park, though, sadly.

[STEMO]

We have wheelie bins here in darkest Barnsley.

[aaronjb]

We have wheelie bins here in darkest Barnsley.

Good to know for my slow creep northward back to the home land

(Might be 30 years before I manage to return, though .. we'll probably have banned all kinds of packaging and consume our food only in tablet form by then)

[Gaffers]

We already have the facility for recycling plastic, glass and even cardboard... 

It's call a recycling bin and gets emptied once a fortnight. It is also twice the volume of our regular bin... Which also gets emptied once a fortnight... 

It's obviously not working though.  As the plastic bag charge showed, even saving a few pence on a £40 shop makes people change their habits.  Plus with less waste going through the recycling bin it should take a bit of pressure off councils and their recycling operation.  Ergo less excuse to raise tax bills