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[Lizzie Zoom]

......I must emphasis that it was due to the foresight and advanced action by Fisher that many parts were availble to build HMS Dreadnought before it's build had been approved. This ship certainly started a massive arms race with Germany, which in British terms meant the priority was to build many dreadnoughts ready for what was seen to be the inevitable war with the former, and further advance the British policy in force since 1897 to create an advanced Royal Navy to a two power standard.

 That "fever" and need is what is missing now, as it seems we are not preparing for what I see as an inevitable conflict to come.

That was part of his strategy, so it could be built fast enough before the politicians had chance to cancel it, where it was an 'unofficial' project. Like many shapers in society he didn't like 'no' as an answer and would bully and press on regardless to get the result he wanted. A winning combination of good vision and bloody minded determination. During one animated conversation with the king, the king had to ask him to stop waving his pointed finger in his face. He could see the danger from Germany and predicted in 1911 that the next European war would begin once the Kiel Canal was finished, he was one month out on the start of WWI.

Indeed, Fisher was an exceptional man and certainly drove the development of the Royal Navy at the start of the new century.  He was so disappointed when the 'Der Tag' at Jutland did not result in the full decisive battle he and everyone expected.  He never forgave the Admiral of the Grand Fleet, Sir John Jellicoe, for a missed opportunity to destroy the German High Seas Fleet as Nelson had destroyed the combined fleet at Trafalgar.

[BazaJT]

Last of the three programmes on tonight,so worth the watching.Then here's another one for Lizzie[OOooer missus ]probably a repeat but on BBC4 at 9pm tonight Battle of Jutland:The Navy's Bloodiest Day could well be worth a look see.I'll certainly be watching

[Lizzie Zoom]

Last of the three programmes on tonight,so worth the watching.Then here's another one for Lizzie[OOooer missus ]probably a repeat but on BBC4 at 9pm tonight Battle of Jutland:The Navy's Bloodiest Day could well be worth a look see.I'll certainly be watching

Thanks Baza!

Yes, I have watched that before, but no doubt will be watching it again!

The documentary claims to uncover fresh information on the Battle, but actually most, if not all, has already been discussed by historians. The Royal Navy flaws, at many levels, showed on the day, but still the ultimate aim was achieved; the Grand Fleet remained the supreme naval power and Germany never again challenged the Royal Navy to any real degree for the rest of WW1.

My favourite read, of all the books on the Battle, is  Steel.N & Hart.P  Jutland 1916 Cassell 2003. It combines explanation of what happened coupled with numerous contemporary witness statements, that are priceless to any historian. The answers to the many questions about the event are all there

[Lizzie Zoom]

..........................PS that may be an historical event, but what was learnt about how Royal Navy commanders "manage" their command and use their brains with the resources available, still applies to the modern fleet.

If HMS Queen Elizabeth of 2018 is to have a successful career and deal with the 'eventualities' or conflicts that arise with the achieve the results desired, it is vital that commanders of the Royal Navy learn from the past.  New technology is one thing, but nothing will replace that skill and 'gut' nature of a true leader that shows in battle, famously with Nelson, but although it can be there in many, sometimes it is being 'trained out' of them, such as with, it is argued, many commanders at Jutland, the main example being Sir John Jellicoe. A cautious nature took over a few and disappointed many.

[BazaJT]

Thanks for the book info Lizzie,I shall seek out and buy a copy of that.One of Nelsons great attributes was in calling his captains together outlining his attack plan and ultimate goal and then knowing how a sea fight could change due to weather and other factors,he'd trust them to use their initiative and judgement to "put their ship alongside that of an enemy" to achieve the desired outcome.

[Lizzie Zoom]

Thanks for the book info Lizzie,I shall seek out and buy a copy of that.One of Nelsons great attributes was in calling his captains together outlining his attack plan and ultimate goal and then knowing how a sea fight could change due to weather and other factors,he'd trust them to use their initiative and judgement to "put their ship alongside that of an enemy" to achieve the desired outcome.

Exactly right. But that is what did not happen at Jutland with a rigid following of 'the book'. Apart from the very bold action by Vice Admiral Sir David Beatty of the First Battlecruiser Squandron, who, maybe recklessness to some, did lead his battlecruisers to do what they were meant to do and attack the enemy, with him then, after losing three ships, bravely leading the German fleet towards the main body of the Grand Fleet. But due to mistakes, including Beatty leaving the Fifth Battle Squadron (4 super-dreadnoughts) behind when they should have been covering Beatty's ships; the weaknesses of the battlecruisers already described; then Admiral Sir John Jellicoe turning his fleet away from the confrontation with the High Seas Fleet when Beatty had succeeded in his aim, and the rigidness of other commanders, a wonderful opportunity to destroy the German fleet was not taken. Nelson took risks; Beatty took risks, but Jellicoe did not and (hotly argued both ways by naval commanders and historians alike with the possible effects of German submarines and mines to be taken into account) either did the right thing by not risking his vastly superior fleet, or missed the golden moment to decimate the enemy as the First Sea Lord, Sir John Fisher had intended when he built up the 'two power standard' Grand Fleet, as much as the German Admiral Alfred Von Tirpitz had developed the High Seas 'Risk Fleet'. Everyone wanted Der Tag to finally prove who could achieve the most with their respective fleets.

The Royal Navy not only had problems with commanders being too cautious, and unlucky, but they even failed to attack the retreating German fleets as those units passed through British llines of heavy ships because it was night time; the Royal Navy at that time was NOT trained to fight at night, and so many captains of the British ships let the Germans pass!  British destroyers, with typical captains who did take risks, did bravely attack some of those heavy ships of the German fleet, but unfortunatly suffered losses; 8 destroyers sunk and 532 crew killed. If the heavy ships of the Grand Fleet had taken the risk and fought at night these losses could have been avoided, and the German 'escape' with relatively light casualties, could have been very different. But, history is history and little but discussing what transpired can happen now.

[Lizzie Zoom]

Another book in my collection on Juland  Baza, that I also find useful to understand the Battle, with very good illustrations, is:  Bonney G.  The Battle of Jutland 1916 Sutton Publishing 2006 (paperback edition).

It, like the previously mentioned book Jutland 1916, gives a good account of the arms race and build up from 1897 to the Battle

[Rods2]

Although Jutland was a missed opportunity for a tactical victory and was an indecisive battle and on numbers and casualties IMO a UK tactical loss, what must be considered is that is was a strategic victory where the much worse outcome for the RN would have been a real loss and the German Grand Fleet breaking the RN blockade which was a factor in Germany running out of money and resources where the blockade held and the German fleet did not challenge the RN again. My grandad was a CPO and fought in the Battle of Jutland, but suffered from PTSD whhich got so bad in the 1920's and wasn't understood or treated, he spent the rest of his days a volunteer in a mental hospital, where the easiest thing at that time was to remove and forget about people with post WWI mental problems. I also can't find his RN records as many were destroyed in the 1940 Blitz where I have for my other grandad where he fought on The Somme and wounded and disabled during a German attack when the person next to him dropped a Mills bomb in their trench and he had the presence of mind to kick it around the corner of the castellated trench, but his foot was still near it when it went off, but he saved himself and those beside him. He was lucky as earlier in the war when he had been going along a communications trench with two other people where they were a bit more exposed than they realised and a German machine opened up and as he swung the gun around the spacing in the bullets shot in the head and killed the person in front of him and the person behind him.

After the spring 1918 German Ludendorff campaign almost succeeded where he broke through allied lines on the hinge of British anf French troops and made the biggest advances since 1914 in the hope of reaching the Channel before American troops were committed it failed on a combination of German logistics where they couldn't get enough supplies to the attacking front and American reinforcements. From that point onwards it was a year of victories for the allies using superior troop numbers, creeping artillery barrages and tanks, so Germany had no choice but to sue for peace.

Another indecisive battle which was a tactical draw (but claimed as a victory by the French) was the Battle of Malage in 1704, where the UK had recently taken Gibraltar and a combined French-Spanish fleet was launched to attack a combined UK-Dutch one. The battle saw no ships lost by either side but they both suffered heavy damage and casualties, with the French-Spanish fleet slightly more so, but they returned to Toulouse and didn't attack the British again. which is why Gibraltar is still (much to the Spanish displeasure) a British Crown Dependency.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capture_of_Gibraltar

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_M%C3%A1laga_(1704)

Those that are interested in well researched fiction in a series of books called the Dawlish Chronicles by Antoine Vanner and what I find even more interesting and not well known are his true historical RN exploits written about in the Dawlish Chronicles blog and newsletter and can be viewed at:

https://dawlishchronicles.com

[BazaJT]

I think the main problem with Jutland was that the Royal Navy,Admiralty,government and the population not only expected but demanded nothing less than a complete victory-another Trafalgar moment if you will-although as said it was a victory in as much as the High Seas Fleet never challenged the Royal Navy en masse againand I think the next time the High Seas Fleet put to sea as a fleet was when they sailed with their crews into captivity at Scapa Flow.