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Author Topic: F35B  (Read 2227 times)

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Rods2

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F35B
« on: 01 October 2018, 19:32:27 »

Last week was a mixed bag on progress with the first crash just after takeoff with the pilot thankfully ejecting safely, the first combat mission in Afghanistan & of course the most important for us Brits, the first landing & takeoff trials from HMS Queen Elizabeth. By far the best article I've read on this, so far, is in the link below. :y

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/23939/my-observations-and-questions-after-finally-seeing-f-35bs-operate-from-hms-queen-elizabeth
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STEMO

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Re: F35B
« Reply #1 on: 01 October 2018, 20:10:06 »

The more I read about those carriers, the more I become concerned about their ability to withstand a concerted missile attack. Defences are very limited. It's really typical of the British way of thinking, build something really big and hugely expensive, then scimp on the bits of it that the public are never likely to ask about.

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/17158/queen-elizabeth-class-carriers-have-woefully-inadequate-close-in-air-defense-capabilities
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Lizzie Zoom

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Re: F35B
« Reply #2 on: 01 October 2018, 20:18:25 »

Yes a very interesting article with stunning photographs :y :y

As for a F35 being lost in action by the Americans, us British must get ready to lose these aircraft every so often when operating from the carriers, even in peace time.  That is a sad fact of life as regardless of the sophistication of these wonderful aircraft and their highly trained pilots, accidents WILL happen.  They always have when aircraft are operating from carriers.  Hopefully though modern safety systems will keep losses far lower than in the past. My father was on HMS Albion, a carrier, in 1958/60 on a cruise around half the globe.  I remember him telling me, and providing some official photographs of crashed planes still on the deck, that in all they lost five planes and their pilots.  That apparently was the accepted risk of carrier operations.  Re-fuelling of the planes was also fraught with danger.

Operating carriers is a risky business and I just hope we the public and our government of the day can afford the cost of replacing these F35's as they are lost!
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STEMO

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Re: F35B
« Reply #3 on: 01 October 2018, 20:20:59 »

I'd be more worried about the having anything to land on when they return. A giant Gatling gun is hardly high tech defence.
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Lizzie Zoom

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Re: F35B
« Reply #4 on: 01 October 2018, 20:25:15 »

The more I read about those carriers, the more I become concerned about their ability to withstand a concerted missile attack. Defences are very limited. It's really typical of the British way of thinking, build something really big and hugely expensive, then scimp on the bits of it that the public are never likely to ask about.

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/17158/queen-elizabeth-class-carriers-have-woefully-inadequate-close-in-air-defense-capabilities

These carriers are wonderful pieces of maritime engineering for which we should be proud.

The only problem is they are as out of date as the old battleships became.  They are sitting targets to attack unless they have proper screening, but frankly even then they will be at great risk.  Both the Japanese and the Americans found out how vulnerable carriers were way back in WW2.  Now in the 21st century their time is over with missle and long distance attack aircraft taking over.  Like the battleships before them they are great for the UK's prestige and a projection of power, but in reality not much good now for anything else.
« Last Edit: 01 October 2018, 20:27:31 by Lizzie Zoom »
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STEMO

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Re: F35B
« Reply #5 on: 01 October 2018, 20:26:31 »

Have a look at this bad boy and be very afraid.

https://youtu.be/WFV3FUlTzas
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BazaJT

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Re: F35B
« Reply #6 on: 01 October 2018, 20:50:53 »

No need for worry.When comrade Corbyn assumes power what we'll be left with is a rowing boat and a couple of [unmade]Airfix ship kits :D
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Varche

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Re: F35B
« Reply #7 on: 01 October 2018, 21:21:24 »

Theheadline made me smile.

F35 crashes for first time. Surprised they rebuilt it to give it a chance for a second crash.
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Doctor Gollum

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Re: F35B
« Reply #8 on: 01 October 2018, 22:37:40 »

The more I read about those carriers, the more I become concerned about their ability to withstand a concerted missile attack. Defences are very limited. It's really typical of the British way of thinking, build something really big and hugely expensive, then scimp on the bits of it that the public are never likely to ask about.

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/17158/queen-elizabeth-class-carriers-have-woefully-inadequate-close-in-air-defense-capabilities
Bah, you won't need to shoot them to cripple them...

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LC0112G

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Re: F35B
« Reply #9 on: 01 October 2018, 22:45:57 »

Residents of the UK east coast may be able to see a proper carrier air wing operating this week - the USS Truman is off Aberdeen conducting exercises on the Tain range, and is due in Portsmouth/Stokes Bay this weekend for a few days R&R.

The QE carriers are basically just large marine assault ships due to decisions (mistakes IMV) made during the protracted ordering process.
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Re: F35B
« Reply #10 on: 02 October 2018, 11:13:03 »

I often wonder if rather than spending vast sums of money on one aeroplane, would they be better off building a fleet of simpler aircraft like a modern Spitfire as a mobile missile platform.  :-\ I mean, do they really need to use a £150 million plane to take out a guy on a moped?  ???  ::)

I bet you could build hundreds of such aircraft for the cost of one modern jet, fit them with small heat seeking missiles big enough to take out a Land Cruiser, guns for strafing purposes and away you go.  :)  Simple to fly, cheap and easy to train people as well.  Job jobbed!  :y

Tally Ho!   ;D
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LC0112G

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Re: F35B
« Reply #11 on: 02 October 2018, 14:15:39 »

I often wonder if rather than spending vast sums of money on one aeroplane, would they be better off building a fleet of simpler aircraft like a modern Spitfire as a mobile missile platform.  :-\ I mean, do they really need to use a £150 million plane to take out a guy on a moped?  ???  ::)

I bet you could build hundreds of such aircraft for the cost of one modern jet, fit them with small heat seeking missiles big enough to take out a Land Cruiser, guns for strafing purposes and away you go.  :)  Simple to fly, cheap and easy to train people as well.  Job jobbed!  :y

Tally Ho!   ;D

Guys on mopeds aren't really the issue. Yes you could have several cheaper fighters for the same cost as a single F35 - the desert in Arizona is full of A-10s that could be had for relative peanuts. But, on day one of a conflict against anyone with a half decent air defence network (Libya, Syria, Iraq, Iran, France ::) ) an A-10 wouldn't last very long at all on it's own.

The US have a multitude of different airborne platforms ranging from cheap A-10's through F-16, F15, F18 to the very expensive stealth F-22 and F35. The Fighters can be used as Bombers in most cases, but range and payload are limited. If they need more range/payload then B-52, B1 and the mega expensive B-2 come into play.

The UK doesn't spent the money on defence that the US does, so we currently have Tornado and Typhoon to do everything. Typhoons are £80 million each. Tornados are old and due to be out of service next spring to be replaced with the new F-35's, which come in at £100 million ish. This is a very good tactical mix for a day one conflict, but expensive for dealing with mopeds and Toyotas.

So the question isn't really "do we want F-35", it's "do we want sovereign day one conflict capability". If the answer to that is yes, then F-35 is the best there is for the job given our budget and we would be letting down our service men/women if we didn't purchase it. 

Also remember that about 15% of every F-35 built is UK sourced, so it's a valuable income source for foreign sales too. It's likely that around 3000 jets will eventually be built and $100million * 3000 * 15% is a shed load of money for the UK economy.
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STEMO

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Re: F35B
« Reply #12 on: 02 October 2018, 15:06:29 »

Wow! We're talking Opti sized budgets here.  :o
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Nick W

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Re: F35B
« Reply #13 on: 02 October 2018, 17:18:00 »

No need for worry.When comrade Corbyn assumes power what we'll be left with is a rowing boat and a couple of [unmade]Airfix ship kits :D


But that's what we have now
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Rods2

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Re: F35B
« Reply #14 on: 02 October 2018, 20:23:03 »

First night landings.& takeoffs.

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/f-35-conducts-first-night-sorties-on-hms-queen-elizabeth/

HMS Hermes & HMS Invincible were both lightly armed and the Argentinian Exocet carrying Entendards could not get near enough to the carriers to be within Exocet range. The F35Bs have a much bigger range and capability than the Sea Harriers that shot down 21 Argentinean aircraft. In the Falklands war Type 42 Destroyers with Sea Dart were poor air defence ships where as the current Type 46 Destroyers which are ideal for fleet defence (we just need to build 2 more the number originally planned) is currently rated as the best air defence destroyer (better than US AEGIS destroyers) in the world. Large silo based ship missile systems (Seacepter has recently entered service) with modern radars have transformed their air defensive capabilities. :y

Israeli F35s are currently operating with impunity over Tehran even though Iran has Russian S300/400 high altitude long range SAA missiles. In comparison the best that 4th generation aircraft can do in A2AD contested airspace is launch standoff weapons, use the latest multiple decoy systems, EW and hope. Another thing that is rarely discussed with single seat combat aircraft is pilot workload where on 4th and older generation combat that can become overwhelming in highly contested, multiple threat, airspace whereas the F35 with its most advanced avionics and sensor suite is a complete game changer. It is always worth reading what pilots think of the aircraft and they really like it and each major software revision is making it better and better. :y The US also have much faster, more often, upgrade paths compared to the UK which we should also benefit from. :y
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