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[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

Also the same people who told us if we didn't join the Euro our economy was finished.
Economists are people who read books but have no clue how to make money.

[Varche]

We are all still in the thrall of project fear. In fact it is ramping up. Cue Carney about Mid Dec.

So the Commons may well vote down the deal, May is going on a charm offensive to persuade voters to persuade their MPs . That is rich when MPs disregard how their constituents vote.

Pizza Club no deal with an extended period to try and mitigate the fallout?. If only we had some talented leaders.

Back to the original question. , I think the balance of the 48 will be reached if the Commons votes down the deal. I wonder if then we will find we are legally bound to honour the deal!

[Rods2]

PS. The UK economy is bigger than most EU economies put together.

I’m afraid just about every economist in the country agrees that will not be the case if we had a no-deal exit. Which is why it will never happen.

Most of these economists that you speak of either work directly for the government (the economic models that the Treasury have been using have been widely criticised), or they work for organisations that receive funding from the government and/or the EU. 

The IFS is a good example as they receive funding from the government, the Economic and Social Research Council (who in turn are funded by the government ) and the EU.

These economists can't even forecast the next quarters GDP figures correctly, they didn't see the financial crash coming, and predicted that the UK would go into recession and hundreds of thousands of jobs would be lost just for voting to leave the EU. 

As we know that was absolute bollix and the UK's economy has performed quite well considering the uncertainty. 

The model they usually use is the Gravity Model which according to the economics professor who invented it, he said it was not only inappropriate to use for this but down right misleading & dishonest.

Our preeminent macro economist professor that was knighted for being correct (he usually is) Sir Patrick Minford iirc expects with Canada+++ an extra 1-1.5% of GDP growth per year and no deal 0-0.5%. Those who are expecting an immediate recession on No Deal will probably be disappointed due to how GDP is calculated, do you understand why?

Once we triggered Article 50 leaving is out of the UK's hand as our Parliament is in control of UK law and Brussels EU ones and this is an EU law. 29-03-2019 we leave deal or no deal, Mays suggesting otherwise is just another lie from a serial liar. At my last count over 90 Tory MPs said they are going to vote against the deal & as they realise the full horrors of the May, Hammond, Robbins & others capitulation that will rise as Tory MP pragmatism of keeping their seat always wins the day. May's total incompetence, stubborn bloody mindedness will probably cost her, her job & I sincerely hope so. Worst PM I've ever lived under that makes Major & Heath look competent in comparison.

Tories certainly seem to pick duff leaders & PMs. Gove, throwing Boris under a bus in the leadership contest is IMO the biggest cause of where we are and he by supporting May has just done the same to 17.4m leavers & the UK fishing industry which he presides over. He is obviously currently on a double daily ration of snake oil.

[Lizzie Zoom]

Olly Robbins has not been negotiating with the elected leaders of 27 other member states (they aren't countries). He has been colluding with his unelected friends in Brussels. 
I at least have some hope of beiong able to make a small difference to this shambles, as I have joined the useless Tory party, so that I can hopefully vote to depose Treasonous May in the near future.
For an educated person LZ, your lack of political awareness has always been surprising to me. I well remember you singing the praises of Cameron when he was elected leader, and telling us all what a great leader he was going to be - just for one example. 
May is beyond useless, and in five years time when all and sundry are saying thats what she was, I expect you to then be saying the same.   

I did not and in fact I found him very disappointing.  As for my personal opinion, just because it may not fall in line with your views it does not mean I lack political awareness.

Also personal insults and questioning personal abilities will do no more good than those expressed throughout this Brexit fiasco.

Yes you did. Read back through your own posts.

Oh yeah, and I have time for that!!!

Anyway, you are making the accusation about me saying something, so you prove it along with showing me the political context it was said in.

I know what I have thought and said at certain times, and that has changed dependant on the political situation at the time, as it should do.  I have never gone with the thought that a politician is never right or never wrong, no matter what party they are from.  That is good political science, including the crucial philosophy behind it, which studying politics has taught me to do.  I do not stay on one track, but use my intelligence to decide what I think at that point in time in context with all other considerations.  The trouble with current politics is there is too much intransigence, as we are witnessing with Brexit.

[Sir Tigger KC]

The trouble with current politics is there is too much intransigence, as we are witnessing with Brexit.

Quite right Lizzie! 

The EU have been very good at intransigence and it's worked very well for them. 

[Kevin Wood]

The trouble with current politics is there is too much intransigence, as we are witnessing with Brexit.

Quite right Lizzie! 

The EU have been very good at intransigence and it's worked very well for them. 

I suspect we won't even know the meaning of the word "intransigence" until they have us signed up to that backstop "agreement".

[Doctor Gollum]

33.5 million people voted in the referendum in 2016. It stands to reason, therefore, that there are 33.5 million varying ideas of what Brexit actually means to people who voted, not to mention the further 13 million opinions of those who didn't bother to vote.

However crummy this deal seems, and for whatever reason, I genuinely believe that anyone tasked with putting it together would have ended up with broadly the same result.

I would go as far as to suggest that you could probably count the number of people (not only of the 46 million people in the UK, but also in Europe as a whole) who are 100% in agreement with every nuance of the deal on one hand.

In light of this point, is it better either to proceed in the manner of this deal, ie as a difficult compromise; or to instead to risk political chaos and the undoubtable economic carnage that this will bring?

[STEMO]

33.5 million people voted in the referendum in 2016. It stands to reason, therefore, that there are 33.5 million varying ideas of what Brexit actually means to people who voted, not to mention the further 13 million opinions of those who didn't bother to vote.

However crummy this deal seems, and for whatever reason, I genuinely believe that anyone tasked with putting it together would have ended up with broadly the same result.

I would go as far as to suggest that you could probably count the number of people (not only of the 46 million people in the UK, but also in Europe as a whole) who are 100% in agreement with every nuance of the deal on one hand.

In light of this point, is it better either to proceed in the manner of this deal, ie as a difficult compromise; or to instead to risk political chaos and the undoubtable economic carnage that this will bring?

Calm down, dear, it's only a spat. We have them regularly.

[Doctor Gollum]

 

[Sir Tigger KC]

Yes no need to shout. 

It's not a compromise it's a humiliating capitulation that was so unnecessary that I'm sure it's all part of the Establishment's plan to keep us in.   

You must have seen Barnier, Junker and Tusk on the telly on Sunday all smiles, laughter and clapping each other on the back.  They know they've stiffed us, we know they've stiffed us and yet May, Hammond and co will still spend the next couple of weeks telling us it's a good deal and we had to make some compromises. 

Anyone who believes this, clearly dosn't understand the implications of the absurd backstop..... 

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

Yes no need to shout. 

It's not a compromise it's a humiliating capitulation that was so unnecessary that I'm sure it's all part of the Establishment's plan to keep us in.   

You must have seen Barnier, Junker and Tusk on the telly on Sunday all smiles, laughter and clapping each other on the back.  They know they've stiffed us, we know they've stiffed us and yet May, Hammond and co will still spend the next couple of weeks telling us it's a good deal and we had to make some compromises. 

Anyone who believes this, clearly dosn't understand the implications of the absurd backstop..... 

I would think that is how most brexiteers will see it.

Raab has said it's worse than remaining in the EU.......which was so bad we decided to leave.

[Lizzie Zoom]

33.5 million people voted in the referendum in 2016. It stands to reason, therefore, that there are 33.5 million varying ideas of what Brexit actually means to people who voted, not to mention the further 13 million opinions of those who didn't bother to vote.

However crummy this deal seems, and for whatever reason, I genuinely believe that anyone tasked with putting it together would have ended up with broadly the same result.

I would go as far as to suggest that you could probably count the number of people (not only of the 46 million people in the UK, but also in Europe as a whole) who are 100% in agreement with every nuance of the deal on one hand.

In light of this point, is it better either to proceed in the manner of this deal, ie as a difficult compromise; or to instead to risk political chaos and the undoubtable economic carnage that this will bring?

Very much agree with all that!

Listening tonight on Mrs May's schedule doing interviews, attending "question & answer" sessions, maybe doing a debate session with Corbyn, let alone being quizzed left, right and centre in the Commons, I know what I would do now if I were her and had secured this draft agreement. Retire, take my pension, and leave all those who think they can do better to it!

If she doesn't do that I can see her becoming very ill, like Anthony Eden, and making some very bad decisions whilst suffering from extremely high stress levels.  Her job is done. She should move on and leave the buggers to it!

[Varche]

Que? The backstop is a monumentally bad decision

Her job is done?. .No she did a half cocked effort as a remainer. If the job was “done” the nation and parliament would be behind her.

She should move on?  Yes without her pension .

Leave the buggers to it? Like abandoning ship having done half a job..

SIGH . If only the country had any decent statesmen/women .

[Lizzie Zoom]

Que? The backstop is a monumentally bad decision

Her job is done?. .No she did a half cocked effort as a remainer. If the job was “done” the nation and parliament would be behind her.

She should move on?  Yes without her pension .

Leave the buggers to it? Like abandoning ship having done half a job..

SIGH . If only the country had any decent statesmen/women .

She has done what she could so, yes, her job is done, no matter what side of the house you sit. She got a deal, that was the aim, so she has done what she could.  Now is the time for her to move aside and let who ever thinks they can do better to do it.

[Viral_Jim]

If the job was “done” the nation and parliament would be behind her.

I doubt that anyone, with any deal could achieve that. For example, there is a sizeable portion of the country (some sub-set of the 48%), myself included who do and will always believe this is a really daft idea. I'm at one end of the spectrum, I dare say someone like Sir Tig is at the other. There is no deal that anyone could have struck that would please us both.

All this talk of "let's pull together" and "make the best of it" is utter cobblers. As is May going out canvassing the public.