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Author Topic: 250 mile range electric car  (Read 8049 times)

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Nick W

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Re: 250 mile range electric car
« Reply #30 on: 18 May 2018, 11:47:29 »

No. The energy storage capacity of virtually all substances has been known for years

But again, that's only the negative half of the story.

If you solve the charging issue, the energy density available is more than sufficient. Hypothetically, if you could input say 10% of a battery's capacity per second of charge (not currently possible or likely, but illustrative) you could recharge a 250mile battery while sat at the traffic lights, so energy density would then become a non-issue.  :y


charging time isn't the only difficult issue. Long term durability is major requirement, and suffers badly when batteries are charged quickly. The battery pack needs to last the life of the car; shall we use 20 years and 200k miles as a starting point? It's easily achievable with an IC engine. Reducing the life of the car is a stupid solution.


We also need to consider what the battery is made of, especially if switching to EVs is done for environmental and ecological reasons. There's only so much lithium for example, although the batteries can be recycled. That's something that we ought to insist on, but it does bump up the cost. That's probably why we're very bad at it.


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LC0112G

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Re: 250 mile range electric car
« Reply #31 on: 18 May 2018, 12:00:18 »

But again, that's only the negative half of the story.

If you solve the charging issue, the energy density available is more than sufficient. Hypothetically, if you could input say 10% of a battery's capacity per second of charge (not currently possible or likely, but illustrative) you could recharge a 250mile battery while sat at the traffic lights, so energy density would then become a non-issue.  :y

If my aunt was a man she'd be my uncle.

Charging 10% of a (say) 100KWh battery in 1 second requires a delivery system capable of supplying 360MW per second :o . That's 1.5 Million Amps at 240V, or 14400A at 25Kv, or any other combination you want to calculate. Sorry old bean, safety issues aside there is zero chance the infrastructure will ever be able to support that kind of setup, or anything remotely close to it, short of building a nuclear power station into every set of traffic lights.

And that assumes 100% charging efficiency. If the charging process is 95% efficient (which is way above any currently available system) you end up with 18Mw of heat being produced in losses. Something is going to get pretty toasty if you stuff 18Mw of heat per second into it  ::).
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LC0112G

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Re: 250 mile range electric car
« Reply #32 on: 18 May 2018, 12:08:17 »

The battery pack needs to last the life of the car; shall we use 20 years and 200k miles as a starting point? It's easily achievable with an IC engine. Reducing the life of the car is a stupid solution.

I suspect the manufacturers are looking at closer to 5-7 years life and 60K miles and then re-cycling.
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Re: 250 mile range electric car
« Reply #33 on: 18 May 2018, 12:17:30 »

This thread is a joy to read. It's what this forum used to be about, great discussion and debate on an important, motoring-related subject. Plenty of good knowledge being bounced about.  :y
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LC0112G

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Re: 250 mile range electric car
« Reply #34 on: 18 May 2018, 12:32:19 »

This thread is a joy to read. It's what this forum used to be about, great discussion and debate on an important, motoring-related subject. Plenty of good knowledge being bounced about.  :y

People with O-level science and access to Google should be able to work this kind of stuff out from first principles. The fact they can't says more about the education system than anything else - and that's your wife's fault isn't? Where do I claim my compo?
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Viral_Jim

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Re: 250 mile range electric car
« Reply #35 on: 18 May 2018, 12:34:46 »

Jimmy.....Noise is an essential part of the excitement.

 Are you seriously telling me that a Ferrari Daytona or AC Cobra with a 7 litre  lump of Detroit V8 up front would be just as exciting if it made the same noise as one of those little light blue spaz chariots from the seventies?...... :)

Absolutely not! Cars like that are a true joy and the engines are a massive part of what makes them what they are. I'm referring to the phalanx of keyboard warriors who bemoan how souless ev's are compared to fossil cars, an then toddle off to work in their ultimate driving machine 320d with the plastic M-sport nonsense attached to it.

My world view (which I don't expect to be shared by many) is that the proper place for petrol engines is in an exciting toy, where every journey is an occasion and the daily drudge of M42, M6 & M1 is taken care of by my (hopefully) self driving EV.
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Nick W

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Re: 250 mile range electric car
« Reply #36 on: 18 May 2018, 12:46:10 »

The battery pack needs to last the life of the car; shall we use 20 years and 200k miles as a starting point? It's easily achievable with an IC engine. Reducing the life of the car is a stupid solution.

I suspect the manufacturers are looking at closer to 5-7 years life and 60K miles and then re-cycling.




5 years and 60k miles is in line with current major servicing of wear items. Cambelts for example. Which would make a replacement battery pack a £500 job. Hell, lets be generous and call it a grand as that's easy to spend on current cars. What is the likelihood of that ever being achievable? They would have to make a fundamental change to the way that batteries are packaged within the car too, which would negate one of EVs bigger advantages.


Their business is to make money by selling stuff. That's why their answer to any question is buy the new model which fixes that problem. They'd already rather we all bought a brand new car every two or three years.  That's why they were so keen on the scrappage scheme, as it enticed lots of people who wouldn't normally have bought a new car to do so.


I keep saying this, but continually replacing something for an ostensibly 'better' one is NOT a sound practice.
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Field Marshal Dr. Opti

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Re: 250 mile range electric car
« Reply #37 on: 18 May 2018, 12:55:16 »

This thread is a joy to read. It's what this forum used to be about, great discussion and debate on an important, motoring-related subject. Plenty of good knowledge being bounced about.  :y

.....not from me. ;)
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Field Marshal Dr. Opti

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Re: 250 mile range electric car
« Reply #38 on: 18 May 2018, 12:57:56 »

Jimmy.....Noise is an essential part of the excitement.

 Are you seriously telling me that a Ferrari Daytona or AC Cobra with a 7 litre  lump of Detroit V8 up front would be just as exciting if it made the same noise as one of those little light blue spaz chariots from the seventies?...... :)

Absolutely not! Cars like that are a true joy and the engines are a massive part of what makes them what they are. I'm referring to the phalanx of keyboard warriors who bemoan how souless ev's are compared to fossil cars, an then toddle off to work in their ultimate driving machine 320d with the plastic M-sport nonsense attached to it.

My world view (which I don't expect to be shared by many) is that the proper place for petrol engines is in an exciting toy, where every journey is an occasion and the daily drudge of M42, M6 & M1 is taken care of by my (hopefully) self driving EV.

I'll go along with that ........minus the EV bit. :y
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Nick W

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Re: 250 mile range electric car
« Reply #39 on: 18 May 2018, 12:59:35 »

This thread is a joy to read. It's what this forum used to be about, great discussion and debate on an important, motoring-related subject. Plenty of good knowledge being bounced about.  :y

People with O-level science and access to Google should be able to work this kind of stuff out from first principles. The fact they can't says more about the education system than anything else - and that's your wife's fault isn't? Where do I claim my compo?




Basic education in the humanities(particularly history and geography) will make you aware of how changes to one thing cascades through everything else. That should bring a distrust of simple answers. A grounding in the scientific method is then enough to look at the numbers and techniques and realise that they're 'dangle berries'.


It's more the somebody else ought to do something about that attitude that has become so prevalent recently. It's somebody else's problem because I've already volunteered to be a victim for some oppsing reason.
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Field Marshal Dr. Opti

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Re: 250 mile range electric car
« Reply #40 on: 18 May 2018, 13:04:53 »

Speaking of battery replacement charges......

I briefly toyed with the idea of an Infiniti M35H which has a 3.5V6 Datsun engine in tandem with a battery pack. This came with a piss poor 5 year warranty  that didn't include general deterioration of the battery pack. :-\

For a genuine part each module came in at £3500 plus fitting. The car had six modules which presumably would all go tits up at a very similar time. :-\

Expensive.
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Viral_Jim

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Re: 250 mile range electric car
« Reply #41 on: 18 May 2018, 13:06:42 »

Sorry old bean, safety issues aside there is zero chance the infrastructure will ever be able to support that kind of setup, or anything remotely close to it, short of building a nuclear power station into every set of traffic lights.


Its an interesting question as to what would satisfy an EV sceptic in regard to charging, I'm thinking nothing. Taking my real life example from yesterday (or maybe the day before, I forget). 20mins to fill my poxy roller-skate of a hire car with enough juice to take me about 370 miles (1.0 fossil cars and motorways don't mix).

We are already at the point where 150kw chargers are at the deployment phase, meaning a 75kwh car can go from 10%-80% in around 20mins. When we have EVs that can take you 300-400 miles on only the charge time it takes you to have a coffee and go for a pee or two, what more do you need or want from the tech?

On battery life & maintenance, EVs are mostly too young to really put it to the test, but the few teslas our there that have done high mileages are showing over 90% capacity at 200,000 miles. So I doubt its as big an issue as many would have us believe. Sadly in that regard, the Gen 1 24kWh leafs did the cause no favours. Add in a lack of clutches, oil, belt changes and generally far fewer moving parts, I would think the lifetime costs of EV ownership are much lower in maintenance terms.
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Field Marshal Dr. Opti

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Re: 250 mile range electric car
« Reply #42 on: 18 May 2018, 13:15:00 »

Sorry old bean, safety issues aside there is zero chance the infrastructure will ever be able to support that kind of setup, or anything remotely close to it, short of building a nuclear power station into every set of traffic lights.


Its an interesting question as to what would satisfy an EV sceptic in regard to charging, I'm thinking nothing. Taking my real life example from yesterday (or maybe the day before, I forget). 20mins to fill my poxy roller-skate of a hire car with enough juice to take me about 370 miles (1.0 fossil cars and motorways don't mix).

We are already at the point where 150kw chargers are at the deployment phase, meaning a 75kwh car can go from 10%-80% in around 20mins. When we have EVs that can take you 300-400 miles on only the charge time it takes you to have a coffee and go for a pee or two, what more do you need or want from the tech?

On battery life & maintenance, EVs are mostly too young to really put it to the test, but the few teslas our there that have done high mileages are showing over 90% capacity at 200,000 miles. So I doubt its as big an issue as many would have us believe. Sadly in that regard, the Gen 1 24kWh leafs did the cause no favours. Add in a lack of clutches, oil, belt changes and generally far fewer moving parts, I would think the lifetime costs of EV ownership are much lower in maintenance terms.


I'm dubious.

But when the battery pack on a P100D finally does give up the ghost my guess it will cost more than the value of the car to replace.

I, for one, would not be willing to buy a 5-7 year old EV which is still running (limping along for 30 miles or so) on it's original PP9.

Figure battery replacement into the equation and the glorified milk float begins to look less attractive.

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Field Marshal Dr. Opti

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Re: 250 mile range electric car
« Reply #43 on: 18 May 2018, 13:24:43 »

EV lovers tend to have an encyclopedic knowledge of where the next charging point is located.

"I have 30 miles left and the next charge point is 25 miles...........relax and breathe deeply. It'll be OK if I just keep calm."

A minor unanticipated detour is probably enough to bring about a panic attack. :D

« Last Edit: 18 May 2018, 13:42:00 by Field Marshal Dr. Opti »
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tigers_gonads

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Re: 250 mile range electric car
« Reply #44 on: 18 May 2018, 13:30:32 »

Sorry old bean, safety issues aside there is zero chance the infrastructure will ever be able to support that kind of setup, or anything remotely close to it, short of building a nuclear power station into every set of traffic lights.


Its an interesting question as to what would satisfy an EV sceptic in regard to charging, I'm thinking nothing. Taking my real life example from yesterday (or maybe the day before, I forget). 20mins to fill my poxy roller-skate of a hire car with enough juice to take me about 370 miles (1.0 fossil cars and motorways don't mix).

We are already at the point where 150kw chargers are at the deployment phase, meaning a 75kwh car can go from 10%-80% in around 20mins. When we have EVs that can take you 300-400 miles on only the charge time it takes you to have a coffee and go for a pee or two, what more do you need or want from the tech?

On battery life & maintenance, EVs are mostly too young to really put it to the test, but the few teslas our there that have done high mileages are showing over 90% capacity at 200,000 miles. So I doubt its as big an issue as many would have us believe. Sadly in that regard, the Gen 1 24kWh leafs did the cause no favours. Add in a lack of clutches, oil, belt changes and generally far fewer moving parts, I would think the lifetime costs of EV ownership are much lower in maintenance terms.


I'm dubious.

But when the battery pack on a P100D finally does give up the ghost my guess it will cost more than the value of the car to replace.

I, for one, would not be willing to buy a 5-7 year old EV which is still running (limping along for 30 miles or so) on it's original PP9.

Figure battery replacement into the equation and the glorified milk float begins to look less attractive.




I know were your coming from with that.

Imo, when (not if) these things do take over from the conventional IC engine, you will be buying the car and renting the battery pack from the manufactures or even a 3rd party supplier.
New model vehicles will be designed with easily replaceable packs just like a over grown power tool  :-\ 
That way, market forces come into play and the prices of the packs come down.

This will carry on for about 20 years until the raw materials for the cells start to get scarce and the price starts to creep up again and the infrastructure for hydrogen is established  :-\ 
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