Topic: air con got me scratching my head!! (Read 5349 times)

dandor · « **on:** 06 July 2014, 19:45:21 »

Hi guys, ive had my omega now for about 6 months. since owning the car my aircon has never worked. Today however I decided to get it regassed. As soon as I left I tried it and as to be expected it didnt work. The guy at halfords assured me it wasnt leaking. When I switch my aircon on my compressor now kicks in and both my coolingfans start up. But Defo no cold air. Can anybody shed any light on it? Or is there something im missing? The car is a facelift 2.2 petrol cd auto. To turn aircon im rotating both temp dials to lo, selecting just face vents and making sure eco is off ie not lit up, is this right? Thanks in advance for comments. This one really got me confused

TheBoy · « **Reply #1 on:** 06 July 2014, 19:58:35 »

So the retard at Halfords (presumably Autocentres, as the stores wouldn't have a machine) gas it but didn't check it worked?

It was done on a proper machine, not from cans?

dandor · « **Reply #2 on:** 06 July 2014, 20:18:20 »

Well he had a can, but attached to the can he had a trigger with a guage on it. He checked for leaks first by putting his guage on the system first. He said there was a little pressure in the system. He said if there was a leak it would be completely empty by now. When he recharged the system the guage went to the blue zone and he said the system wouldnt take any more. Before when I switched the aircon on nothing happened but now the system seems to spring to life.ie the compressor kicks in and both cooling come on. You can also feel I slight strain on the engine. But no cold air, just feels like it did before.

amba · « **Reply #3 on:** 06 July 2014, 20:20:34 »

If you paid them for the (service provided

) take it back and tell them to fix it at their costs as you paid for something they havent provided...working air conditioning.

Once its working my best advise is never ever take it to them again

dandor · « **Reply #4 on:** 06 July 2014, 20:27:12 »

Well to be honest I told him I wasnt paying him because it didnt work so there was no charge. But I did get the feeling he didnt have much of a clue. I will definitely never go there again though. Is it possible to over fill the system?

amba · « **Reply #5 on:** 06 July 2014, 20:31:44 »

The system has a measured quantity of refrigerant and small amount of oil.

If the system is too low on refrigerant the compressor will not cut in,but not sure if you can overfill tbh,but expect it is possible as the system works on pressure so must require a small amount of clear space to allow for expansion .Other may advise better but suggest you get the system correctly checked by somebody qualified in A/C .

dandor · « **Reply #6 on:** 06 July 2014, 20:38:28 »

I think your right, its definitely looking that way. From switching the aircon on, how long does it take to start blowing at its coldest? Also might sound daft but am I switching it on right?

dandor · « **Reply #7 on:** 06 July 2014, 20:53:35 »

Also, there is a strange but not alarming noise coming from behind the glove box when I switch it on. The best way to describe it is like a secondry fan that fluctuates its speed slightly. Could this have anything to do with it? Like I say the aircon has never worked so I dont know what is normal on the omega.

amba · « **Reply #8 on:** 06 July 2014, 20:57:43 »

Cant answer question regarding operation as our car models are different and I am unsure of how the buttons etc work on your car.

My climate will produce chilled air almost as soon as it is engaged but it will chill further with recirculation mode engaged although Omegas dont have the greatest system so be realistic about how chilled a hot car in full sun will get to

dandor · « **Reply #9 on:** 06 July 2014, 21:05:11 »

Ok, well im going to keep it switched on for now and see if anything changes. Might be a case of giving it time as it has gone so long not working.

Andy H · « **Reply #10 on:** 06 July 2014, 21:08:59 »

A professional would have used a vacuum pump to extract any old gas and weighed the quantity recovered.

The new gas would have been weighed as it was added. The required weight is usually written on a sticker on the panel above the radiator. As mentioned above some new compressor oil would also have been added.

Once there was a decent quantity of gas in the system it would be run and the high and low pressures checked to confirm a job well done.

It doesn't sound as though any of the above was done with your system. I imagine that just enough gas was added to trigger the pressure switch but not enough to get any worthwhile cooling.

dandor · « **Reply #11 on:** 06 July 2014, 21:31:59 »

Im bloody glad I didnt pay for it. Sounds to me like the lad at halfords did not have a clue. He didnt do any of that above, he literally connected his can, saw a little pressure on his guage and squeezed the trigger untill his guage was in the blue. Also he topped it up with the engine and aircon running. I dont know if thats the way to do it. It just angers me because you put your trust in them to fix your car and your paying them for it. I only went in to halfords for a new tool bag for work.lol. Ended up with a new can of worms. Dont get me wrong I love my omega to bits, but it really kicks my ass sometimes.lol.

Bigron · « **Reply #12 on:** 06 July 2014, 21:46:15 »

I will have scorn heaped upon my head for this suggestion, but try Kwik-Fit? They do a deal where you only pay if it works to full standaard and if it subsequently leaks, you or they fix it and get another free recharge.

Ron.

dandor · « **Reply #13 on:** 06 July 2014, 22:00:39 »

Sounds like a good idea that Ron, next day off ill pop down and see if they can sort it. However be prepared for the abuse from your last comment.lol. A few years ago I took my car to kwik fit for the brakes doing (new pads) they managed to pop the cylinder out of the calliper and basically told me I was to bus it home and my car would be ready in the morning. Safe to say I wasnt happy.

Steve B · « **Reply #14 on:** 06 July 2014, 22:06:30 »

Quote from: amba on 06 July 2014, 20:57:43

Cant answer question regarding operation as our car models are different and I am unsure of how the buttons etc work on your car.

My climate will produce chilled air almost as soon as it is engaged but it will chill further with recirculation mode engaged although Omegas dont have the greatest system so be realistic about how chilled a hot car in full sun will get to

$:-\$ $:-\$ $:-\$

tunnie · « **Reply #15 on:** 06 July 2014, 22:43:16 »

Quote from: BIGtime on 06 July 2014, 22:06:30

Quote from: amba on 06 July 2014, 20:57:43
Cant answer question regarding operation as our car models are different and I am unsure of how the buttons etc work on your car.

My climate will produce chilled air almost as soon as it is engaged but it will chill further with recirculation mode engaged although Omegas dont have the greatest system so be realistic about how chilled a hot car in full sun will get to
$:-\$ $:-\$ $:-\$

That button with an 'A' on the climate dash

amba · « **Reply #16 on:** 06 July 2014, 22:47:53 »

Due to it not pulling further warmer air into the system it just recirculates whats already there.

Also usefull to stop nasty wiffs from entering the car if following something chucking out fumes

Mr.OmegaMan · « **Reply #17 on:** 06 July 2014, 23:05:52 »

What does it do when the A is inside the circle, Automatically detect bad air ? $:-\$

tunnie · « **Reply #18 on:** 06 July 2014, 23:19:30 »

Quote from: Mr.OmegaMan on 06 July 2014, 23:05:52

What does it do when the A is inside the circle, Automatically detect bad air ? $:-\$

Please read the manual

05omegav6 · « **Reply #19 on:** 07 July 2014, 00:28:38 »

Quote from: tunnie on 06 July 2014, 23:19:30

Quote from: Mr.OmegaMan on 06 July 2014, 23:05:52
What does it do when the A is inside the circle, Automatically detect bad air ? $:-\$

Please read the manual

Harsh, but in a word yes, which is why the facelift should have the more expensive active charcoal pollen filter rather than the £4 white one

dandor · « **Reply #20 on:** 07 July 2014, 08:52:03 »

Ahh, well that's strange. As part of trying to diagnose the auction problem I looked at my filter and it's a white paper one. Could that be the problem?

mickyboy123 · « **Reply #21 on:** 07 July 2014, 09:24:24 »

just for your refrence i took mine to vauxhall main dealer, becoze of bad stories i heard about halfords, and it was only 20 pound dearer than halfords, worth the extra to no it was done as it should be,

05omegav6 · « **Reply #22 on:** 07 July 2014, 12:23:59 »

Quote from: dandor on 07 July 2014, 08:52:03

Ahh, well that's strange. As part of trying to diagnose the auction problem I looked at my filter and it's a white paper one. Could that be the problem?

In reality no

your problem is most likely due to the fekwit at Halfords.

All facelift have climate control which is designed to work at its best with a charcoal pollen filter. The white filters are meant for all pre facelift cars without ECC, ie any that don't have digital temp displays on the heater controls...

People end up fitting the white filters to cars that should have the charcoal ones for two reasons...

1. Parts staff are too lazy to confirm the correct part (they're the same size).
2. The charcoal ones are three times the price.

Fitting a white filter to a facelift only means that the system won't filter smells/fumes... will still catch pollen and dust though

Andy H · « **Reply #23 on:** 07 July 2014, 13:37:52 »

Quote from: dandor on 06 July 2014, 20:53:35

Also, there is a strange but not alarming noise coming from behind the glove box when I switch it on. The best way to describe it is like a secondry fan that fluctuates its speed slightly. Could this have anything to do with it? Like I say the aircon has never worked so I dont know what is normal on the omega.

The A/C cabin fan is behind the glove box, there are also some servo motors that open and close temperature control flaps.
It is just possible (but unlikely) that your system now has enough refrigerant gas but isn't working because a servo has become detached. There are separate servos for driver and passenger side so the fault usually only affects one side of the car.
Have you seen the maintenance guides?

Aircon working only one side - how I cured it!

How to Repair Facelift Climate Control Issue DRIVERSIDE (with pictures)

Maintenance Guide Index

Marks DTM Calib · « **Reply #24 on:** 07 July 2014, 13:56:28 »

Also behind the glove box is the aircon expansion valve, when there is issues with the system, this can whistle!

05omegav6 · « **Reply #25 on:** 07 July 2014, 14:06:23 »

Surely the first priority is to get it regassed by a competent place

From the way you described the process used, it's no wonder it isn't working. Get it gassed properly then see if it works

Marks DTM Calib · « **Reply #26 on:** 07 July 2014, 14:10:04 »

Correct its not been gassed properly but, the fact the clutch pulls in tells us that it has gas and is not under or over pressured

But yes, it is useful to see max and min pressures when operating etc and its good to know the right amount of gas is in there.

It does surprise me that Halfords are allowed to do such jobs actually.

Kevin Wood · « **Reply #27 on:** 07 July 2014, 14:49:09 »

Yes, isn't it an offence to fill a leaking air con system with refrigerant?

Said Halfraud had no way to check for leaks, so shouldn't have been attempting to fill it, notwithstanding the fact that you can't do the job properly with a can of refrigerant and a gauge anyway.

Always a line of argument you can try if they don't give you a refund, which you're entitled to, IMHO.

05omegav6 · « **Reply #28 on:** 07 July 2014, 17:46:07 »

Charcoal filter part number is...

93165208

Webby the Bear · « **Reply #29 on:** 07 July 2014, 18:50:38 »

Completely agree with Mark/Kev in that I'm very surprised they even offer that service.

A/C work's pretty involved and shouldn't just be the ''dump it in'' approach that seems to have been taken.

Based on the minimal knowledge on it I have I would say it's a very good sign that your compressor is kicking in and also that you have pressure (presume the Hellfrauds punk pressed the schrader valve quickly to see if it was holding pressure?

)

Anyways it needs to be vacuumed down before dumping in refrigerant 1. because that will confirm there are no leaks and 2. it removes all moisture from the system.

Take it to a qualified A/C guy. Was at one time going to attempt to do it myself but only once I knew the system had been evacuated by an expert and there were definitely no leaks. However even adding the refrigerant is going to be a ball ache due to exact amounts of refrigerant required plus exact amount of PAG oil needed.

Webby the Bear · « **Reply #30 on:** 07 July 2014, 18:52:03 »

*edit*

Vacuuming it down and ensuring it HOLDS vacuum is confirmation you have no leaks....

dandor · « **Reply #31 on:** 07 July 2014, 19:14:24 »

Hey guys, took it to my local vaux dealer today. The problem was the halfwit at halfords didnt put enough gas in it. The pressure was high enough to activate the pressure switch but not high enough to have an effect on the temperature output. Thankyou all very much for your help and comments. Its good to know there are still decent people in the world.

Marks DTM Calib · « **Reply #32 on:** 07 July 2014, 19:57:04 »

Quote from: Webby the Bear on 07 July 2014, 18:52:03

*edit*

Vacuuming it down and ensuring it HOLDS vacuum is confirmation you have no leaks....

Actually it does not prove much.

Trouble is that a vac pulls joint and seals tighter together and is only in the mid 20s pressure wise. Plus it's only held for between a few minutes to an hour with the vac pump off.

Aircon systems can run in the high 300psi level on the high side and a slow leak could mean your gas gone in a week or so despite the vac test passing!

biggriffin · « **Reply #33 on:** 07 July 2014, 19:58:29 »

Quote from: Webby the Bear on 07 July 2014, 18:52:03

*edit*

Vacuuming it down and ensuring it HOLDS vacuum is confirmation you have no leaks....

best to use nitrogen to pressure test the system,then spray the condenser with a soapy solution,look for bubbles, then re-vac and fill.

05omegav6 · « **Reply #34 on:** 07 July 2014, 20:02:28 »

Quote from: dandor on 07 July 2014, 19:14:24

Hey guys, took it to my local vaux dealer today. The problem was the halfwit at halfords didnt put enough gas in it. The pressure was high enough to activate the pressure switch but not high enough to have an effect on the temperature output. Thankyou all very much for your help and comments. Its good to know there are still decent people in the world.

Glad you've got it sorted

Webby the Bear · « **Reply #35 on:** 07 July 2014, 21:10:22 »

Quote from: Marks DTM Calib on 07 July 2014, 19:57:04

Quote from: Webby the Bear on 07 July 2014, 18:52:03
*edit*

Vacuuming it down and ensuring it HOLDS vacuum is confirmation you have no leaks....

Actually it does not prove much.

Trouble is that a vac pulls joint and seals tighter together and is only in the mid 20s pressure wise. Plus it's only held for between a few minutes to an hour with the vac pump off.

Aircon systems can run in the high 300psi level on the high side and a slow leak could mean your gas gone in a week or so despite the vac test passing!

Yeah fair point.

But unless you're going to sit there for a week with it holding vacuum there's not really any other way to do it.....

dbug · « **Reply #36 on:** 08 July 2014, 01:04:45 »

Quote from: Webby the Bear on 07 July 2014, 21:10:22

Quote from: Marks DTM Calib on 07 July 2014, 19:57:04
Quote from: Webby the Bear on 07 July 2014, 18:52:03
*edit*

Vacuuming it down and ensuring it HOLDS vacuum is confirmation you have no leaks....

Actually it does not prove much.

Trouble is that a vac pulls joint and seals tighter together and is only in the mid 20s pressure wise. Plus it's only held for between a few minutes to an hour with the vac pump off.

Aircon systems can run in the high 300psi level on the high side and a slow leak could mean your gas gone in a week or so despite the vac test passing!

Yeah fair point.

But unless you're going to sit there for a week with it holding vacuum there's not really any other way to do it.....

Thats not the way to do it - vac out refrigerant, the pressurise with Nitrogen to test for leakage - it should hold pressure

Marks DTM Calib · « **Reply #37 on:** 08 July 2014, 08:03:46 »

Quote from: dbug on 08 July 2014, 01:04:45

Thats not the way to do it - vac out refrigerant, the pressurise with Nitrogen to test for leakage - it should hold pressure

Absolutely

brian36 · « **Reply #38 on:** 08 July 2014, 17:04:03 »

Quote from: dandor on 07 July 2014, 19:14:24

Hey guys, took it to my local vaux dealer today. The problem was the halfwit at halfords didnt put enough gas in it. The pressure was high enough to activate the pressure switch but not high enough to have an effect on the temperature output. Thankyou all very much for your help and comments. Its good to know there are still decent people in the world.

hi glad sorted can i ask what cost vx roughly guess will vary but i could do with getting done properly thanks

dandor · « **Reply #39 on:** 08 July 2014, 21:25:12 »

They charged me 60 quid, but I'm afraid to say it was just topped up for that price, mechanic came out with a large gas bottle with 2 pipes and 2 guages. He said there wasn't nearly enough gas in the system to start with. I'm just glad its sorted now, just a shame that the whether has cooled down a bit up where I am now. I suppose time will tell if it actually has a leak but I tried it again today and it was freezing within 15 seconds. So far so good. One thing to note and I don't know if it helps but I'm sure the guy said it should be around 35 psi of pressure in the air con system when its in use.

Andy H · « **Reply #40 on:** 08 July 2014, 22:43:09 »

Quote from: dandor on 08 July 2014, 21:25:12

They charged me 60 quid, but I'm afraid to say it was just topped up for that price, mechanic came out with a large gas bottle with 2 pipes and 2 guages. He said there wasn't nearly enough gas in the system to start with. I'm just glad its sorted now, just a shame that the whether has cooled down a bit up where I am now. I suppose time will tell if it actually has a leak but I tried it again today and it was freezing within 15 seconds. So far so good. One thing to note and I don't know if it helps but I'm sure the guy said it should be around 35 psi of pressure in the air con system when its in use.

With R134a that pressure should give an evaporator temperature of around 0 Celsius so he is probably about right for the low pressure side of the system. The pressure in the condenser will be considerably higher. say 200psi?

johnny_boy · « **Reply #41 on:** 28 July 2014, 01:50:04 »

Omega takes 950 grams of gas. This is twice a normal car, and twice what the ez chill can holds.
By the time you have bought two cans you might as well have gone to kwikfit.
I think ez chill are ok for topping up. But filling a very low system that has a huge capacity like the omegas? Nah.
Dont bother.
When the omega system is very low, here is my advice:
If it is a new car, then change high and low intake valves, easy job and these are the weak points of a system. Cheap to do too.
If the condenser is in a bad way consider replacing with pattern parts. £100 and pretty easy to do too.
Then take to kwik fit and let them vacuum it and shove the near kilo of gas in it. Any leaks, no charge. What is important is they will have sucked the moisture out if the system and put fresh oil in. (The oil absorbs moisture).
Dont ezchill unless there is already cold air coming out and you want to top up the gas to maintain the cooling.

05omegav6 · « **Reply #42 on:** 28 July 2014, 02:32:09 »

Quote from: johnny_boy on 28 July 2014, 01:50:04

Omega takes 950 grams of gas. This is twice a normal car, and twice what the ez chill can holds.
By the time you have bought two cans you might as well have gone to kwikfit.
I think ez chill are ok for topping up. But filling a very low system that has a huge capacity like the omegas? Nah.
Dont bother.
When the omega system is very low, here is my advice:
If it is a new car, then change high and low intake valves, easy job and these are the weak points of a system. Cheap to do too.
If the condenser is in a bad way consider replacing with pattern parts. £100 and pretty easy to do too.
Then take to kwik fit and let them vacuum it and shove the near kilo of gas in it. Any leaks, no charge. What is important is they will have sucked the moisture out if the system and put fresh oil in. (The oil absorbs moisture).
Dont ezchill ~~unless there is already cold air coming out and you want to top up the gas to maintain the cooling~~ ever.

Edited for common sense... how can you top the system up if you have absolutely no idea how much gas is already in it

amba · « **Reply #43 on:** 28 July 2014, 08:39:59 »

A/C systems should NOT be "topped up".

They are designed to work efficiently and properly as designed with the correct amount of refrigerant and oil.Without knowing the exact volume that is already in the system how can you "top it up" to the correct quantity.

Just do it properly ,get it working as it should and enjoy it...messing about with cans etc will never produce good results

johnny_boy · « **Reply #44 on:** 29 July 2014, 01:10:00 »

Yes, if you have the money then spend £50 and get it done properly. But not everyone has £50 or wants to spend it on a 15 year old aircon car system in the uk, where it isnt absolutely neccessary.
So there is no one right answer here.
I say if you are tight on cash and your car is not as cold as it was last year, sure ezchill it. Read the instructions and you will be very happy afterwards.
This conversation is like the ones on tyres. People insisting you must spend £400 on a set otherwise you will die. When all a lot of people want is to be satisfied with a car that works, within their budget. Not everyone likes spending money on cars. So there is a place for the top up cans, used sensibly.
To answer the previous poster 'how can you do it when you have no idea how much gas is in the system'. Well i can and have done it, and it worked fine. The system was not as cold as it was, the low gauge will give you a target pressure when you set the ambient temperature, and you just aim for it. Not exact, but there is science behind it, r134a has low side target pressures dependent on ambient temperature. Google will give you the tables. It wont work on systems that are cery low. But for topping up, it does work.

05omegav6 · « **Reply #45 on:** 29 July 2014, 01:14:53 »

You've missed the point...

Spend the same amount of money as ezchill on a proper regas. Not rocket science.
Six very good and clear reasons why such halfarsed measures should be avoided listed on your other post.

Won't bother repeating them, as you clearly haven't grasped them

johnny_boy · « **Reply #46 on:** 29 July 2014, 01:27:26 »

Hmm... But as i said what if you dont want to spend £50, and to take it one step further you have 2 or more cars in the household? Do you spend £150 every three years, which you wont do because you dont want to spend the money?
Ever wondered why so many second hand ten year old vehicles have empty aircon systems? Its for exactly the above reason. People dont, wont or cant spend the money. Thats why ezchill have a market for their product.
We are talking at cross purposes. of course weighing and vacuuming is superior. But we dont live in a perfect world. Just like people buy budget tyres, or use supermarket fuel. Or buy 15 year old omegas. Its all about money.

05omegav6 · « **Reply #47 on:** 29 July 2014, 01:58:37 »

So we're on the same page...

This is EZchill... http://www.halfords.com/motoring/engine-oils-fluids/air-conditioning-recharge-supplies/ez-chill-auto-air-conditioning-recharge

For £30 you can get your aircon properly regassed... here... http://www.sos-automotive.com/ and here... http://www.astonvauxhall.co.uk/ to name but two...

If you insist on being a duck, shop around...

Magwheels · « **Reply #48 on:** 29 July 2014, 09:25:50 »

Tis true.

Can't see the point of a can at that price.

I paid £29.95 for my regas from ATS at the beginning of the year (it was on special and local) and that was for evac and test, oil and regas. They also give the car a quick once over to see if any chance of an upsell so I had the battery drop tested for free as well.

They didn't get any extra money out of me and its still working fine now, been very handy this summer.

johnny_boy · « **Reply #49 on:** 29 July 2014, 22:39:59 »

£30 sounds a very good price. havent heard of this price around my way.
But, if you wanted to you can buy a large trade bottle for £60, that's probably how much it is costing the technician...
Ezchill actually costs £25 - there is a £10 return on the empty bottle - read the small print on Halfords web site. They have to offer money to return the empty cylinders by law.
By the way, there seems to be the idea that you chuck the whole ezchill cylinder in. When I used them you tend to get 3 top ups out a single cylinder.If my system was getting that low that fast, then I would push some dye in the system, then run the air con for about a minute. Then look for leaks with a uv torch. In my experience it is always the valves that leak. Luckily, on the omega they are easy to see - at the front and the top of the engine.

05omegav6 · « **Reply #50 on:** 29 July 2014, 22:45:32 »

Knock yourself out then

But for the love of God, do it quietly, all this repetition is starting to bore

Mr.OmegaMan · « **Reply #51 on:** 29 July 2014, 22:49:02 »

Do you work for Ezchill by any chance

johnny_boy · « **Reply #52 on:** 29 July 2014, 23:22:55 »

No, don't work for EzChill. But do you feel uncomfortable with paying £50 at KwikFit, when the gas and oil they are putting in your car probably cost them £3? Something must be up, because people are trying to shout me down.

Mr.OmegaMan · « **Reply #53 on:** 29 July 2014, 23:56:02 »

Quote from: johnny_boy on 29 July 2014, 23:22:55

No, don't work for EzChill. But do you feel uncomfortable with paying £50 at KwikFit, when the gas and oil they are putting in your car probably cost them £3? Something must be up, because people are trying to shout me down.

Never used KwikFit for anything couldn't comment, Tried ATS about 4 times till enough was enough, Took it to a VX dealer and it's been fine since got it done for £30 all in. If EzChill works for you stick with it, Personally I don't think anyone unless qualified should refill the A/C. One of those things that needs to be done by a professional or a competent garage..

4x4 · « **Reply #54 on:** 30 July 2014, 06:16:30 »

Quote from: johnny_boy on 29 July 2014, 23:22:55

No, don't work for EzChill. But do you feel uncomfortable with paying £50 at KwikFit, when the gas and oil they are putting in your car probably cost them £3? Something must be up, because people are trying to shout me down.

So what about the compressor oil,if your topping up ac yourself,do you know how much is left in the system if any,i would prefer a specialist to do mine,its checked and tested with the correct amount of gas and oil,serek will be doing the regas on the truck,it might cost me £5 in lpg and £30 for the job,but i know he is doing it right,NO HALFARSED JOB like your doing.

News:

Author Topic: air con got me scratching my head!! (Read 5349 times)

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