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[Tony H]

Hi all, I'm in a bit of a spot. I have a Fiesta that is "mothballed" and parked on private ground. I sorned it when the tax ran out on April 2012 It got clamped by the DVLA or their contractors this morning. They intend to lift it and take it to the pound tomorrow, I have looked on the DVLA website to see what info they hold on this car and discovered errors, I cannot access the tax history as their computer says I have entered invalid details even though I have filled all the relevant question boxes correctly.their data base states that it ran out of tax in 2012 no mention of a sorn even though I have the sorn acknowledgement  letter in front of me for 2012- 2013 I did not receive a reminder to sorn it this year so the sorn for now was over looked maybe the reason that I did not get this reminder is because of the incorrect info on their data base. I have spoken to the DVLA regarding this matter and they have stated that I can lodge an appeal in writing. I contacted the clamping company this afternoon and informed them of my appeal and the grounds that the appeal would be based on, but they were not interested and still intend to take the car to the pound tomorrow. The intend to charge me all the costs that I will incure and have said that if my appeal is successful I will get them refunded. But I don't think that's the point What happened to "innocent until proven guilty" Is there anything I can do legally to prevent them removing the car. Advice please the clock is ticking

TIA
TONY

[powerslinky]

Hi all, I'm in a bit of a spot. I have a Fiesta that is "mothballed" and parked on private ground. I sorned it when the tax ran out on April 2012 It got clamped by the DVLA or their contractors this morning. They intend to lift it and take it to the pound tomorrow, I have looked on the DVLA website to see what info they hold on this car and discovered errors, I cannot access the tax history as their computer says I have entered invalid details even though I have filled all the relevant question boxes correctly.their data base states that it ran out of tax in 2012 no mention of a sorn even though I have the sorn acknowledgement  letter in front of me for 2012- 2013 I did not receive a reminder to sorn it this year so the sorn for now was over looked maybe the reason that I did not get this reminder is because of the incorrect info on their data base. I have spoken to the DVLA regarding this matter and they have stated that I can lodge an appeal in writing. I contacted the clamping company this afternoon and informed them of my appeal and the grounds that the appeal would be based on, but they were not interested and still intend to take the car to the pound tomorrow. The intend to charge me all the costs that I will incure and have said that if my appeal is successful I will get them refunded. But I don't think that's the point What happened to "innocent until proven guilty" Is there anything I can do legally to prevent them removing the car. Advice please the clock is ticking

TIA
TONY

Don't want to be the bearer of bad news but   . . .

Fairly sure that you don't get reminders  from DVLA for SORN . It's your responsibility  . . down to you to re SORN it 

[Andy B]

I thought that rules changed this year re SORN such that once SORNed it stayed as such until  you either taxed it or sold it ie you don't need to reSORN it each year

[Andy B]

....
Don't want to be the bearer of bad news but   . . .

Fairly sure that you don't get reminders  from DVLA for SORN . It's your responsibility  . . down to you to re SORN it 

According to form V890 they do http://www.direct.gov.uk/prod_consum_dg/groups/dg_digitalassets/@dg/@en/@motor/documents/digitalasset/dg_065269.pdf

but as said above, I thought the rules had changed 

[powerslinky]

....
Don't want to be the bearer of bad news but   . . .

Fairly sure that you don't get reminders  from DVLA for SORN . It's your responsibility  . . down to you to re SORN it 

According to form V890 they do http://www.direct.gov.uk/prod_consum_dg/groups/dg_digitalassets/@dg/@en/@motor/documents/digitalasset/dg_065269.pdf

but as said above, I thought the rules had changed 

you are quite right Andy        says so on that form  . . . see even at my age  you learn something everyday 

So if Tony did not get a reminder . .  does he have a case to appeal ?

and apologies to Tony  . . . for some reason I thought DVLA did not remind you 

[zirk]

First off, the only way to stop the action today is to pay the clamp release fine and the surety fee (160 + 80 usually) if done over the phone you just pay the money.

Secondly why did they clamp it if its on private ground (is it your ground, if not, probably because its, Council maintained or they have permission from the Land Owner to clamp or remove unTaxed vehicles)?

Thirdly, as far as I know Sorn only last 12 months, then expires.

One word of warning, how long has it been Untaxed or Unsorn for?, as the next phase in a few weeks could be a Unsorn fine and back tax?, 

[Andy B]

....
Don't want to be the bearer of bad news but   . . .

Fairly sure that you don't get reminders  from DVLA for SORN . It's your responsibility  . . down to you to re SORN it 

According to form V890 they do http://www.direct.gov.uk/prod_consum_dg/groups/dg_digitalassets/@dg/@en/@motor/documents/digitalasset/dg_065269.pdf

but as said above, I thought the rules had changed 

you are quite right Andy        says so on that form  . . . see even at my age  you learn something everyday 

So if Tony did not get a reminder . .  does he have a case to appeal ?

I've found a newer form, which says the SORN is valid till you tax or sell it
This declaration is valid until you re-tax, sell, permanently export or scrap the
vehicle. A SORN cannot be made if the vehicle is taken out of the UK

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/334331/V890_060514.pdf

I can only suggest that Tony finds a way of phoning Swansea PDQ and see what they have to say 

[powerslinky]

....
Don't want to be the bearer of bad news but   . . .

Fairly sure that you don't get reminders  from DVLA for SORN . It's your responsibility  . . down to you to re SORN it 

According to form V890 they do http://www.direct.gov.uk/prod_consum_dg/groups/dg_digitalassets/@dg/@en/@motor/documents/digitalasset/dg_065269.pdf

but as said above, I thought the rules had changed 

you are quite right Andy        says so on that form  . . . see even at my age  you learn something everyday 

So if Tony did not get a reminder . .  does he have a case to appeal ?

I've found a newer form, which says the SORN is valid till you tax or sell it
This declaration is valid until you re-tax, sell, permanently export or scrap the
vehicle. A SORN cannot be made if the vehicle is taken out of the UK

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/334331/V890_060514.pdf

I can only suggest that Tony finds a way of phoning Swansea PDQ and see what they have to say 

Had a quick look through the " new" form ,  but does not say when that new wording started . The point will be when was the Re-Sorn due I would think .

Likely that you don't have to re sorn once you have used the "new" form to do it 

[Elite Pete]

Sleep in it, they can't take it if your in it

[Tony H]

I forgot to mention I successfully  sorned this car online earlier this afternoon, don't  know whether this will make any difference to the situation 

[powerslinky]

First off, the only way to stop the action today is to pay the clamp release fine and the surety fee (160 + 80 usually) if done over the phone you just pay the money.

Secondly why did they clamp it if its on private ground (is it your ground, if not, probably because its, Council maintained or they have permission from the Land Owner to clamp or remove unTaxed vehicles)?

Thirdly, as far as I know Sorn only last 12 months, then expires.

One word of warning, how long has it been Untaxed or Unsorn for?, as the next phase in a few weeks could be a Unsorn fine and back tax?,

As Zirk stated earlier  . .  an important point in this could be the "private ground" the car is sat on . More so  if it is not  actually your own  ground & you have not had permission  from the owner/s to leave it there 

[Tony H]

The ground that is parked on is leased by myself

[minifreek]

I thought clamping was illegal now or is there an exception for the DVLA or Police....?

Personally I'd remove the clamp and park the vehicle elsewhere and out of sight... they can't take whats not there...

[powerslinky]

The ground that is parked on is leased by myself

Only my opinion , but I would think that would be in your favour then.

So next question is , you obviously have not asked them to , so ,can these contractors "trespass"  onto private ground to clamp a car & then return to remove it without being asked to do so by the land owner /leasee ?

just out of curiosity  . . . have you changed adresses since you last put that car on SORN ?

[omegod]

A)Remove wheel from vehicle without damaging the clamp, it can be done. Allow wheel to be confiscated with clamp.

B)Did they have your/the landowners permission to enter the property ? If not they sure as hell don't have permission to come on it and remove said vehicle ! Report them for trespass and theft of the vehicle if they do.

C)As Pete said lock yourself in the bugger

BTW who is the contractor acting for DVLA?   

[andrew38]

I can see how you can get fined for non SORN but cannot see how they can 'trespass' on your private land to clamp it and remove it. what if it was on your driveway?

[omegod]

No need to re-sorn after 16-12-2013 BTW

[Andy B]

No need to re-sorn after 16-12-2013 BTW

Thanks ...... I knew I'd heard about it, but couldn't find anything on the web

[drinksoptional]

With out a court order they cannot enter the land . Is it a secure land

[drinksoptional]

Sounds like this clamp company ate at it. Call police sounds dodgy

[Tony H]

I can see how you can get fined for non SORN but cannot see how they can 'trespass' on your private land to clamp it and remove it. what if it was on your driveway?

According to the clamping company they are within there rights to do so, I questioned whether  they would need a court order they would not commit theirselfs with a reply they just invited me to  view direct.gov.uk to see there rights which I did and could not find any relevant info.

[flyer 0712]

A friend of mine a few years ago worked for a recovery company in an area of London where no one wanted to go to.....they throw t vs at them from the high rise flats.......He once told me that they were not allowed to take the car if some-one was in it,and then they had to call the police to sort it out,,,,,So as said on here......sleep in it and at least they are not allowed to man handle you and then the police will turn up and then you will see if the dreaded clampers are genuine or not,,,,,I have a great big german sheperd if it helps 

[4x4]

Why not call the police,they are very helpful in this sort of situation.

[RobG]

Sch. 45, Finance Act 2008 amended sch. 2A, Vehicles Excise & Registration Act 1994, which gives them power to enter land etc, and clamp or remove unlicensed/non-SORN vehicles,

 except:

 (a)any place which is within the curtilage of, or in the vicinity of, a dwelling-house, mobile home or houseboat and which is normally enjoyed with it, or

 (b)any place which is within the curtilage of, or in the vicinity of, a building consisting entirely (apart from common parts) of two or more dwellings and which is normally enjoyed only by the occupiers of one or more of those dwellings.

[Kevin Wood]

Sounds to me like they have clamped the car to ensure you can't remove it before it's uplifted, so they can then charge you for the operation, storage, retrieval, etc. without you having a chance to collect it. Why the council would order them to immobilise a car they want shot of beats me, although they do have the authority to do so despite private clamping having been outlawed. They can also do it on private land under certain circumstances. Probably best to contact the police to determine if it is lawful in this case.

Is the car obviously unroadworthy? If so, they may have clamped it to prevent you driving it.

If the land it's on is yours you could presumably deny them access, although you'd have to sleep there, as said. Can you block the entrance in such a way that they would have to cause damage to enter?

You could remove the unclamped wheels, even the hubs as well, if you like, as they'll probably be expecting to roll it onto a truck. They could just pick it up with a Hi-Ab, of course, and no doubt that would attract an additional charge that you would, naturally, be liable for.

I would perhaps photograph the car and remind them that you will be holding them responsible for any damage should they touch it.

Police is probably the first port of call, though. 

[flyer 0712]

Curtilage.....Oxford dictionary states meaning...An area of land attached to a house and forming one enclosure with it...(i never knew that ) 

[drinksoptional]

Bring witness many as you can and film . Park cars around the vehicle

[omegod]

Any updates to this dispicable situation ?

[Tony H]

Hi all, first off thanks for all the advice, but bad news I'm afraid, apparently the DVLA do not send out reminders any more it's up to the owner of the car to remember to SORN it. As for the defense of "curtilage" although the car was parked on private land the land is a car park which is open to the public so does not qualify. I did my best to prevent them lifting the car with a hyab I chained the car to my boat trailer also blocked it in with another car my works van and my Omega. The clamper was reluctent to attempt to remove it because of this. I phoned their office but the "jobs worth I spoke to was having none of my mitigating circumstances and informed  that if I wished to appeal I would have to do it retrospectively and they want there "pound of flesh" so i reluctantly agreed to pay them £260 £100 clamp release fee and £160 surety which is refundable providing I tax insure and MOT the car within fourteen days.
This is not the end of the matter as I intend to appeal I don't mind abiding to rule changes if they are reasonable, but when the goal posts are moved it is only reasonable that you are informed of it.

Imagine the case if the DVLA decided to increase the minimum tyre tread depth to 3mm without making it public  and your tyres had 2mm tread and you got pulled and you where them informed you are going to get 12 points on your licence and a four grand fine hardly fair I would say.

[omegod]

   B.a.stards but a very valiant attempt at stopping it all the same sir! when did the SORN expire?

[Tony H]

The SORN expired at the end of April please all take note that SORNS do not  "roll over" it is up to you to remember to SORN it every year. Another government "cash cow" me thinks the same as the up and coming changes in the tax disc rule in October 

[Andy B]

The SORN expired at the end of April please all take note that SORNS do not  "roll over" it is up to you to remember to SORN it every year. Another government "cash cow" me thinks the same as the up and coming changes in the tax disc rule in October 

but apparently they do now 

[powerslinky]

The SORN expired at the end of April please all take note that SORNS do not  "roll over" it is up to you to remember to SORN it every year. Another government "cash cow" me thinks the same as the up and coming changes in the tax disc rule in October 

but apparently they do now

with you on that one Andy  . .  . we all  read it on THEIR  "new" SORN form last night  . . .  did we not ?

This gets more crazy as it goes on . . .    so no reminders anymore  . .  but once sorned with the "new" form it stays Sorned

until you either tax it , no longer own  it or scrap it    is that right ?

[Andy B]

The SORN expired at the end of April please all take note that SORNS do not  "roll over" it is up to you to remember to SORN it every year. Another government "cash cow" me thinks the same as the up and coming changes in the tax disc rule in October 

but apparently they do now

with you on that one Andy  . .  . we all  read it on THEIR  "new" SORN form last night  . . .  did we not ?

This gets more crazy as it goes on . . .    so no reminders anymore  . .  but once sorned with the "new" form it stays Sorned

until you either tax it , no longer own  it or scrap it    is that right ?

Just remembered ..... I SORNed my motorbike the other day, the confirmation email states

The SORN will be valid until you tax, sell, permanently export or scrap the vehicle. 

[powerslinky]

The SORN expired at the end of April please all take note that SORNS do not  "roll over" it is up to you to remember to SORN it every year. Another government "cash cow" me thinks the same as the up and coming changes in the tax disc rule in October 

but apparently they do now

with you on that one Andy  . .  . we all  read it on THEIR  "new" SORN form last night  . . .  did we not ?

This gets more crazy as it goes on . . .    so no reminders anymore  . .  but once sorned with the "new" form it stays Sorned

until you either tax it , no longer own  it or scrap it    is that right ?

Just remembered ..... I SORNed my motorbike the other day, the confirmation email states

The SORN will be valid until you tax, sell, permanently export or scrap the vehicle.[/i] 

Andy, thats on the new form  V890 - 05 14   (from may 2014)

The older form  V890 - 09 12    up to may 14   only keeps the SORN valid for 12 months

So depends what version you down load  I suppose 

I downloaded one  from DVLA site on 1st July & it was the 12 month one

got a SORN nightmare going on myself now  . .  see "General Car Chat"

[Andy B]

The SORN expired at the end of April please all take note that SORNS do not  "roll over" it is up to you to remember to SORN it every year. Another government "cash cow" me thinks the same as the up and coming changes in the tax disc rule in October 

but apparently they do now

with you on that one Andy  . .  . we all  read it on THEIR  "new" SORN form last night  . . .  did we not ?

This gets more crazy as it goes on . . .    so no reminders anymore  . .  but once sorned with the "new" form it stays Sorned

until you either tax it , no longer own  it or scrap it    is that right ?

Just remembered ..... I SORNed my motorbike the other day, the confirmation email states

The SORN will be valid until you tax, sell, permanently export or scrap the vehicle.[/i] 

Andy, thats on the new form  V890 - 05 14   (from may 2014)

The older form  V890 - 09 12    up to may 14   only keeps the SORN valid for 12 months

So depends what version you down load  I suppose 

I downloaded one  from DVLA site on 1st July & it was the 12 month one

got a SORN nightmare going on myself now  . .  see "General Car Chat"

I've seen it ...... that's now the problem a new owner has, he's dependant on the seller doing the paper work. I thought it worked better as it was before ie the buyer dealt with the paper work

[05omegav6]

Sorned mine online today, permanently or until the car is scrapped or relicenced, again confirmed by email

[Rods2]

I didn't get a reminder through in April when 12 months of SORN was up and like everybody else assumed you no longer had to SORN it every year, so I have just been on the DVLA website and it confirms it is SORNed?

Vehicle status: SORN in place

[aaronjb]

I didn't get a reminder through in April when 12 months of SORN was up and like everybody else assumed you no longer had to SORN it every year, so I have just been on the DVLA website and it confirms it is SORNed?

Vehicle status: SORN in place

Just checked the Jag that (as far as I can tell) I last SORNed in 2013 .. DVLA also say a SORN is in place and current.

[Tony H]

Any updates to this dispicable situation ?

Update, I submitted an appeal yesterday the basis of my defence is that as a car owner I was not formally informed in the change of normal protocol i.e. a reminder to sorn the car Fingers crossed, but I'm not holding my breath 

[Tony H]

Got the result of my appeal today refused"  To quote "The law is very tightly drawn and the Agency does not have the discretion to decide which cases are accidental and which were deliberate V11 reminder is only a courtesy service and and so the responsibility lies primarily with the keeper to ensure the car is taxed or sorned" I have examined the V11 form and and it does not state that this is a "courtesy" which can be withdrawn at any time without notice. So I think it's really unjust to decline my appeal on the grounds that the DVLA have stated, when you bare in mind that the sorn is now open ended with no need to re sorn. I do not intend to let this matter drop and will take it to The Ministry of transport if needed.

[Lizzie_Zoom]

Sorry to hear the judgement, but I am afraid the law is quite clear on "ignorance being no defence".

If you don't take the appropriate action at the right time and within the DVLA laid down regulations then I'm afraid you will get penalised, as of course you have now been.

I would put it all down to experience.  Not a good one, but one that goes sometimes with motoring life.

[Shackeng]

Got the result of my appeal today refused"  To quote "The law is very tightly drawn and the Agency does not have the discretion to decide which cases are accidental and which were deliberate V11 reminder is only a courtesy service and and so the responsibility lies primarily with the keeper to ensure the car is taxed or sorned" I have examined the V11 form and and it does not state that this is a "courtesy" which can be withdrawn at any time without notice. So I think it's really unjust to decline my appeal on the grounds that the DVLA have stated, when you bare in mind that the sorn is now open ended with no need to re sorn. I do not intend to let this matter drop and will take it to The Ministry of transport if needed.

Sadly a recent promotion to one of these jobs is Ms Claire Perry, my MP, and going by a recent interview with her, don't hold your breath.

[gstylebaby]

Sleep in it, they can't take it if your in it

Lmao trust you Pete.

[gstylebaby]

Sorry to read you got kicked back mate.

[drinksoptional]

If the clamper was reluctant to remove why did you pay? Why didn't you just sit there till he f off then tow car away