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Author Topic: Part Two of Tesla Masterplan  (Read 2369 times)

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Varche

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Part Two of Tesla Masterplan
« on: 21 July 2016, 10:20:40 »

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-36852725

Makes interesting reading. A lot of sense for example in allowing your car to be shared when you don't need it though I am not  sure I would want it back after someone had transported dirty rubbish to the tip.

I think the world of motoring will be a very different place in 30 years.
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Re: Part Two of Tesla Masterplan
« Reply #1 on: 21 July 2016, 10:36:07 »

Still a flawed approach in my view, batteries are not the future of a cars fuel source.
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Re: Part Two of Tesla Masterplan
« Reply #2 on: 21 July 2016, 10:39:05 »

This 'car share' is being touted as the future - but as has already been observed - who is responsible for maintenance, and cleaning, and to drive humanity into an even deeper hole of consumerist living, when one of the biggest pushes of modern design over the last few years has been trying to instil and 'design-in' the feeling of bespoke, hand make and 'uniqueness' (just look at how many 'weathered look/battered/vintage style clothes you can buy brand new) is totally wrong and not thought through.

But, I'm sure, like weekly genderswaps, murder in the name of Art, and War for Fashionable reasons will all come as humanity degrades into the mire and abyss...  :D
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aaronjb

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Re: Part Two of Tesla Masterplan
« Reply #3 on: 21 July 2016, 11:03:23 »

But, I'm sure, like weekly genderswaps, murder in the name of Art, and War for Fashionable reasons will all come as humanity degrades into the mire and abyss...  :D

Well, that escalated quickly..
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Varche

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Re: Part Two of Tesla Masterplan
« Reply #4 on: 21 July 2016, 11:11:14 »

Still a flawed approach in my view, batteries are not the future of a cars fuel source.

Would you say that if the price of the batteries came down to maybe a tenth and lasted ten times longer?

Would you say that if a fast charge ( currentlyhalf an hour I believe) could be done in the time it takes to fill your vehicle with liquid fuel?

Think of the savings not having a fleet of tankers topping up filling stations day and night.

I do agree with Diamond Geezer about taking away individuality and thus upsell for the marketing boys( your Bose, MV6 seats, carbon detailling, wood trim) but you need to think out of the box. You could for example change the cars colour each journey to suit your mood. The technology if it doesn't exist will soon. Plus if you are glued to your Pokemon Go 8 (to allow for new releases) why would you care what the vehicle looked like inside so long as it was comfy? We are all losing liberties and freedom every day - this is just another.   
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Re: Part Two of Tesla Masterplan
« Reply #5 on: 21 July 2016, 11:20:27 »

Still a flawed approach in my view, batteries are not the future of a cars fuel source.
Would you say that if the price of the batteries came down to maybe a tenth and lasted ten times longer?

Yes, a battery is still not a valid source of fuel in a car in my view.

Quote
Would you say that if a fast charge ( currentlyhalf an hour I believe) could be done in the time it takes to fill your vehicle with liquid fuel?

Perhaps it would be possible, but it would kill battery, fast charging reduces the life of them. Unless there is a fundamental change in how they work, can't see that catching on (2-5min charge)


Quote
Think of the savings not having a fleet of tankers topping up filling stations day and night.

Still have to get some serious power supplies to 'Petrol' stations, the amount of power being consumed at having 20 cars 'filling' up at once? Going to need more power than they current get, cost of that? Far more than running a couple of lorries.
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aaronjb

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Re: Part Two of Tesla Masterplan
« Reply #6 on: 21 July 2016, 11:22:26 »

Would you say that if a fast charge ( currentlyhalf an hour I believe) could be done in the time it takes to fill your vehicle with liquid fuel?

I think the laws of physics would have some problems with that.. Let's assume the 10x capacity has happened, so the biggest Tesla pack is now 900kW.  A fast charge is meant to give you (IIRC) 80% capacity in half an hour so that's 720kW.

You need to deliver that in 30 minutes, that's 1.4GWh.  The current Tesla Supercharger is 120kW (400V, 300A DC).

To deliver that 30 minute charge you'd need 400V, 3000A and a cable CSA of something in the order of 400mm2!

I just can't see it, given the infrastructure already required to support the Supercharger:
Quote
Here’s how a typical Supercharger (in thiscase, the one at Port St Lucie, FL) is configured: the eight bay setup takes a 12 kV, 750 kVA feedfrom the Utility, steps it down to 480V three phase on site, pushes that into 2000A switchgear which feeds four banks of Supercharger units (one for each pair of “pods”) at 480V/200A. Each unit contains twelve 10 kWrectifiers (the same “charger” that is found in Model S) giving a total of 120kW DC per pair of pods.

Each pod feeds DC power at c. 400V/300A into the Model S battery via a cable plugged into the rear of the car.


The fact is, not much rivals the speed and ease at which you can pour effective kW into a receptacle besides petrol/diesel/LPG or, maybe, hydrogen fuel cells..
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Re: Part Two of Tesla Masterplan
« Reply #7 on: 21 July 2016, 11:53:42 »

Would you say that if a fast charge ( currentlyhalf an hour I believe) could be done in the time it takes to fill your vehicle with liquid fuel?

I think the laws of physics would have some problems with that.. Let's assume the 10x capacity has happened, so the biggest Tesla pack is now 900kW.  A fast charge is meant to give you (IIRC) 80% capacity in half an hour so that's 720kW.

You need to deliver that in 30 minutes, that's 1.4GWh.  The current Tesla Supercharger is 120kW (400V, 300A DC).

To deliver that 30 minute charge you'd need 400V, 3000A and a cable CSA of something in the order of 400mm2!

I just can't see it, given the infrastructure already required to support the Supercharger:
Quote
Here’s how a typical Supercharger (in thiscase, the one at Port St Lucie, FL) is configured: the eight bay setup takes a 12 kV, 750 kVA feedfrom the Utility, steps it down to 480V three phase on site, pushes that into 2000A switchgear which feeds four banks of Supercharger units (one for each pair of “pods”) at 480V/200A. Each unit contains twelve 10 kWrectifiers (the same “charger” that is found in Model S) giving a total of 120kW DC per pair of pods.

Each pod feeds DC power at c. 400V/300A into the Model S battery via a cable plugged into the rear of the car.


The fact is, not much rivals the speed and ease at which you can pour effective kW into a receptacle besides petrol/diesel/LPG or, maybe, hydrogen fuel cells..


This is the future.

Electric cars have been around since the dawn of time. They belong to the past.

Hybrids are merely cementing the fact that it can't be made it work properly with batteries alone, so we'll include a good old fashioned internal combustion engine to help out.

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Kevin Wood

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Re: Part Two of Tesla Masterplan
« Reply #8 on: 21 July 2016, 11:54:46 »

Yep, only thing I can see as being anything close to the convenience of filling a petrol/tractorjuice/LPG car is swapping the batteries themselves. Then the batteries need to be standardised somehow.

Ok, so give up on swapping batteries and swap the car itself. Maybe the "Boris car" is the future after all.

Wake me up when I can tow a 1500Kg trailer to Aberdeen in a day, as I do, on at least an annual basis, using my Omega.
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Diamond Black Geezer

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Re: Part Two of Tesla Masterplan
« Reply #9 on: 21 July 2016, 12:05:39 »

Most car journeys, statistically, consist of 1.2 people (or thereabouts) and that was the logic behind the MCC Smart.. however for when you DO want that back row of seats, you're stuffed. And that is why, brilliant in so many ways the Smart is, has ultimately cost Mercedes to make them since day one. Much the same with electric, if we could all afford two cars, somehow, then a simple electric vehicle for the daily commute would be fabulous, and I'd get/rent/lease/borrow/share one tomorrow, save wear on Pissy's Michelins for the weekend.. Ina way, we need to structurally alter our society to enable us to both nip to work in 10 mins, as well as drive to Scotland and back to politically visit that distant relative. With electric we can't do that.


The other option (which baffles me why this isnt the norm) is you pay to own the car.. but lease the batteries. Turn up at the fuel station, simply lift out the suit-case sized battery, plug it into the charger, and pick up the already-charged battery pack next to it. Every time a battery is plugged in its health is downloaded, and at such time that they're becoming old, they get replaced by 'the company', all covered by your monthly lease fee. Eradicating crisp-packet and chewing-gum ruined shared cars, as you only 'share' the powercell.


However, fuel cell is blatantly the way of the future, I agree.
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Nick W

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Re: Part Two of Tesla Masterplan
« Reply #10 on: 21 July 2016, 13:00:52 »

Most car journeys, statistically, consist of 1.2 people (or thereabouts) and that was the logic behind the MCC Smart.. however for when you DO want that back row of seats, you're stuffed. And that is why, brilliant in so many ways the Smart is, has ultimately cost Mercedes to make them since day one. Much the same with electric, if we could all afford two cars, somehow, then a simple electric vehicle for the daily commute would be fabulous, and I'd get/rent/lease/borrow/share one tomorrow, save wear on Pissy's Michelins for the weekend.. Ina way, we need to structurally alter our society to enable us to both nip to work in 10 mins, as well as drive to Scotland and back to politically visit that distant relative. With electric we can't do that.


The other option (which baffles me why this isnt the norm) is you pay to own the car.. but lease the batteries. Turn up at the fuel station, simply lift out the suit-case sized battery, plug it into the charger, and pick up the already-charged battery pack next to it. Every time a battery is plugged in its health is downloaded, and at such time that they're becoming old, they get replaced by 'the company', all covered by your monthly lease fee. Eradicating crisp-packet and chewing-gum ruined shared cars, as you only 'share' the powercell.


However, fuel cell is blatantly the way of the future, I agree.


You're halfway there, but have avoided the science/engineering/practicalities.


Working backwards:


Fuel cells are just another inefficient way of packaging energy in a way that it can be used to propel a vehicle. Their biggest advantage is low pollution at the point of use, but that largely is cancelled out by the processes used to separate the hydrogen.


Fossil fuels have this at both ends of their cycle; the massive chemical plants required to convert oil into fuel and when it's burnt.


Your swapping of a suitcase size battery sounds good, but they simply aren't big enough to provide a useful amount of energy. Renault had a scheme for doing this procedure, which required dropping a much biger battery pack out the bottom on a ramp. Google Renault Fluence. It went bankrupt very quickly.


All of the three systems are mature technology: they all produce workable vehicles. They all have some serious flaws, one of which is shared: the requirement to carry around your own stash of dangerous chemicals. After that you have emissions, lack of range, recharge times etc, etc.


The biggest problems with both electric and hydrogen is the lack of infra-structure, which is what Tesla are actually working towards. Let's not forget that the electricity required to charge a battery or fill a fuel cell has to come from somewhere. Most of the world uses fossil fuels for that.


The reasoning behind the Smart was sound, but it didn't go far enough and it certainly doesn't allow for human nature. Most of us simply don't want that sort of vehicle, even if it fits our needs. It didn't help that the engine and gearbox were so awful to use. The inherent Smart compromises actually match the battery vehicle compromises very well.


The real problem is that we're continually promised a replacement for fossil fuel vehicles, yet the solutions are all useful additions.


The real improvement will come from the vehicles themselves and the way we use them. Cars have become huge, bloated and heavy for no practical gain. Just compare a mk1 Golf's dimensions with the current model which does the same job of moving four people and some luggage in comfort.


We've become so used to being able to go wherever we want, whenever we want that we've become blind to the expenditure required to do so. This is a social and political problem, which means it's unsolvable without a radical reason to do so. Those are never good.
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Diamond Black Geezer

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Re: Part Two of Tesla Masterplan
« Reply #11 on: 21 July 2016, 13:07:02 »

Good point well made. I forgot the (failed) Renault scheme, maybe that's where I got 'my' genius idea from!  :)

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Re: Part Two of Tesla Masterplan
« Reply #12 on: 21 July 2016, 17:42:42 »

Theres a hydrogen fuel cell filling station in Swindon  :y
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Re: Part Two of Tesla Masterplan
« Reply #13 on: 21 July 2016, 18:34:25 »

In my view hybrids are the worst option.

In addition to having potential engine problems you can throw in a battery pack change in the 6-8 year period. Lithium battery packs costs thousands.
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Re: Part Two of Tesla Masterplan
« Reply #14 on: 21 July 2016, 18:39:58 »

Teslas use thousands of AA size batteries.  ;D
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Keith ABS

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Re: Part Two of Tesla Masterplan
« Reply #15 on: 21 July 2016, 19:40:32 »

  Going back to the earlier point of getting into a smelly car after someone had used it for a tip trip, with a Mr Fusion unit on the back, the rubbish will be its fuel :D :D ;D ;D

Keith ABS
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aaronjb

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Re: Part Two of Tesla Masterplan
« Reply #16 on: 22 July 2016, 08:58:37 »

Teslas use thousands of AA size batteries.  ;D

Nah, you're thinking of the Mercedes AA Class
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Diamond Black Geezer

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Re: Part Two of Tesla Masterplan
« Reply #17 on: 22 July 2016, 09:15:44 »

That's brilliant!  :D Best bit is one of the youtube comments is 'Kind of stupid'.... sigh..... Yes, yes, you are.  ::)
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Re: Part Two of Tesla Masterplan
« Reply #18 on: 22 July 2016, 09:21:42 »

Teslas use thousands of AA size batteries.  ;D

Nah, you're thinking of the Mercedes AA Class

Perhaps Mercedes should rename them a DD class for the tits that drive them?
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