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Author Topic: Astra 1.6 rattle on cold start  (Read 6908 times)

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terry paget

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Astra 1.6 rattle on cold start
« on: 08 February 2019, 11:36:56 »

Astra 1.6 Life petrol manual estate 08 reg 112510 miles.
This car was bought for my daughter living in Enfield. She complained that warning lights kept coming on, so I collected it and left her my Omega 3.2 for transport. It now runs all right, but has a worrying rattle on cold start, that has been there since I bought it. The oil light goes out immediately on engine start, but the engine rattles for about a second afterwards. Listening with bonnet open and my head level with the cylinder head noise appears to come from the centre of the cylinder head. I have removed the gauzes from the variable valve timing (VVT) solenoids as advised by DG, but rattle remains.

On restart no rattle occurs, but after an hour's cooling it does. It's as though once the oil reaches the head all is well.

Please advise.
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Gaffers

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Re: Astra 1.6 rattle on cold start
« Reply #1 on: 08 February 2019, 12:02:16 »

Misfire?  Is there any blue/grey smoke that accompanies the rattle on startup?
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Andy H

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Re: Astra 1.6 rattle on cold start
« Reply #2 on: 08 February 2019, 12:06:03 »

The bearings are worn and there is lots of clearance which results in an audible rattle until fresh oil is pumped through the bearings.

It will probably run like that for years if driven gently.........

Back in the day when an A series Morris engine was worn out at 30,000 miles it was common for people to drop the sump and throw some new big end and main bearing shells in. Doesn't make economic sense nowadays though as most engines are still like new when the car is scrapped and good secondhand engines are plantiful.
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Re: Astra 1.6 rattle on cold start
« Reply #3 on: 08 February 2019, 12:23:04 »

Weak oil pump...
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Kevin Wood

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Re: Astra 1.6 rattle on cold start
« Reply #4 on: 08 February 2019, 12:54:27 »

If it's from the head it's probably just a lifter or a chain tensioner filling up.
If theyre's no nasty rumbling or knocking when fully warmed up under load I'd not worry about it.
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dave the builder

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Re: Astra 1.6 rattle on cold start
« Reply #5 on: 08 February 2019, 13:38:51 »

It has done some miles,parts are worn, once the oil fills the voids it's fine (hence thick semi 10w40 is good )
you could spend ages adjusting lifters and checking cam lobes ,fitting new big and main bearings etc etc ......
OR
just use it for another 5 years (with regular servicing) and when the engine rattles to bits and everything else is worn out ......
buy another  :y
preferably one with less than 100k and a decent history the next time   ::)
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Re: Astra 1.6 rattle on cold start
« Reply #6 on: 08 February 2019, 16:21:19 »

If it's from the head it's probably just a lifter or a chain tensioner filling up.
If theyre's no nasty rumbling or knocking when fully warmed up under load I'd not worry about it.


This.


If it stops quickly then you'll spend a lot of time and probably money on trying to fix something doesn't matter.


You've already done what I would recommend, which is use the heavier oil that is suggested for that engine. The one time I put 5w30 in my Omega, it was really noisy on startup; going back to 10w40 for the next year's oil change stopped that.
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Lizzie Zoom

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Re: Astra 1.6 rattle on cold start
« Reply #7 on: 08 February 2019, 16:31:17 »

The bearings are worn and there is lots of clearance which results in an audible rattle until fresh oil is pumped through the bearings.

It will probably run like that for years if driven gently.........

Back in the day when an A series Morris engine was worn out at 30,000 miles it was common for people to drop the sump and throw some new big end and main bearing shells in. Doesn't make economic sense nowadays though as most engines are still like new when the car is scrapped and good secondhand engines are plantiful.

Oh, happy memories as I did that 8) 8) :y

Also with the A series engine if you had a top end rattle it was commonly down to a tappet needing adjustment. :D ;)
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Nick W

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Re: Astra 1.6 rattle on cold start
« Reply #8 on: 08 February 2019, 17:12:26 »

The bearings are worn and there is lots of clearance which results in an audible rattle until fresh oil is pumped through the bearings.

It will probably run like that for years if driven gently.........

Back in the day when an A series Morris engine was worn out at 30,000 miles it was common for people to drop the sump and throw some new big end and main bearing shells in. Doesn't make economic sense nowadays though as most engines are still like new when the car is scrapped and good secondhand engines are plantiful.

Oh, happy memories as I did that 8) 8) :y

Also with the A series engine if you had a top end rattle it was commonly down to a tappet needing adjustment. :D ;)


that's if you could hear it over the racket made by the timing chain


And you can't just drop the sump when the engine is in a Mini. 30k miles seems rather low to me, 100k is much more likely and is pretty typical for any mass-produced OHV engineof that era. Inadequate fuelling and ignition is themain cause
« Last Edit: 08 February 2019, 17:15:33 by Nick W »
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Lizzie Zoom

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Re: Astra 1.6 rattle on cold start
« Reply #9 on: 08 February 2019, 17:33:57 »

The bearings are worn and there is lots of clearance which results in an audible rattle until fresh oil is pumped through the bearings.

It will probably run like that for years if driven gently.........

Back in the day when an A series Morris engine was worn out at 30,000 miles it was common for people to drop the sump and throw some new big end and main bearing shells in. Doesn't make economic sense nowadays though as most engines are still like new when the car is scrapped and good secondhand engines are plantiful.

Oh, happy memories as I did that 8) 8) :y

Also with the A series engine if you had a top end rattle it was commonly down to a tappet needing adjustment. :D ;)


that's if you could hear it over the racket made by the timing chain


And you can't just drop the sump when the engine is in a Mini. 30k miles seems rather low to me, 100k is much more likely and is pretty typical for any mass-produced OHV engineof that era. Inadequate fuelling and ignition is themain cause

My A40 was just at 40k

Two valves were also burnt with chunks out of them, and the rest needed re-seating ;)
« Last Edit: 08 February 2019, 17:35:48 by Lizzie Zoom »
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terry paget

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Re: Astra 1.6 rattle on cold start
« Reply #10 on: 08 February 2019, 22:07:31 »

The bearings are worn and there is lots of clearance which results in an audible rattle until fresh oil is pumped through the bearings.

It will probably run like that for years if driven gently.........

Back in the day when an A series Morris engine was worn out at 30,000 miles it was common for people to drop the sump and throw some new big end and main bearing shells in. Doesn't make economic sense nowadays though as most engines are still like new when the car is scrapped and good secondhand engines are plantiful.

Oh, happy memories as I did that 8) 8) :y

Also with the A series engine if you had a top end rattle it was commonly down to a tappet needing adjustment. :D ;)


that's if you could hear it over the racket made by the timing chain


And you can't just drop the sump when the engine is in a Mini. 30k miles seems rather low to me, 100k is much more likely and is pretty typical for any mass-produced OHV engineof that era. Inadequate fuelling and ignition is themain cause

My A40 was just at 40k

Two valves were also burnt with chunks out of them, and the rest needed re-seating ;)
On my Morris 1100 I used to regrind my exhaust valves every year - they needed it too
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Kevin Wood

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Re: Astra 1.6 rattle on cold start
« Reply #11 on: 10 February 2019, 11:45:00 »

On my Morris 1100 I used to regrind my exhaust valves every year - they needed it too
That'll be down to the aforementioned Inadequate fuelling and ignition.
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Lizzie Zoom

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Re: Astra 1.6 rattle on cold start
« Reply #12 on: 10 February 2019, 15:08:11 »

The bearings are worn and there is lots of clearance which results in an audible rattle until fresh oil is pumped through the bearings.

It will probably run like that for years if driven gently.........

Back in the day when an A series Morris engine was worn out at 30,000 miles it was common for people to drop the sump and throw some new big end and main bearing shells in. Doesn't make economic sense nowadays though as most engines are still like new when the car is scrapped and good secondhand engines are plantiful.

Oh, happy memories as I did that 8) 8) :y

Also with the A series engine if you had a top end rattle it was commonly down to a tappet needing adjustment. :D ;)


that's if you could hear it over the racket made by the timing chain


And you can't just drop the sump when the engine is in a Mini. 30k miles seems rather low to me, 100k is much more likely and is pretty typical for any mass-produced OHV engineof that era. Inadequate fuelling and ignition is themain cause

My A40 was just at 40k

Two valves were also burnt with chunks out of them, and the rest needed re-seating ;)
On my Morris 1100 I used to regrind my exhaust valves every year - they needed it too

Ahhhhh, the great old days of British motoring!! :D :D ;)
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terry paget

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Re: Astra 1.6 rattle on cold start
« Reply #13 on: 13 February 2019, 16:36:57 »

On my Morris 1100 I used to regrind my exhaust valves every year - they needed it too
That'll be down to the aforementioned Inadequate fuelling and ignition.
I reckon that explains John Haynes Jaguar V12 and COONY's Triumph 2.5PI starting on a selection of cylinders, with the rest joining in later. I wonder that the V12 Rolls Royce Merlin engines, fitted in Spifires, Mustangs, Lancaster bombers, etc., started as well as they did. Maybe having twin magnetos had something to do with it.
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Re: Astra 1.6 rattle on cold start
« Reply #14 on: 13 February 2019, 17:15:41 »

On my Morris 1100 I used to regrind my exhaust valves every year - they needed it too
That'll be down to the aforementioned Inadequate fuelling and ignition.
I reckon that explains John Haynes Jaguar V12 and COONY's Triumph 2.5PI starting on a selection of cylinders, with the rest joining in later. I wonder that the V12 Rolls Royce Merlin engines, fitted in Spifires, Mustangs, Lancaster bombers, etc., started as well as they did. Maybe having twin magnetos had something to do with it.
.. or the absence of BL bean counters. ;D

Having stood at the wingtip of a spitfire as it's started, you can watch little sprays of fuel eminating from each of the exhaust stubs as it goes through its' firing order. As the first cylinder to fire exhausts, the whole lot catches fire before the prop wash blows the fire out a second or two later and the ground starts shaking. ;D
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aaronjb

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Re: Astra 1.6 rattle on cold start
« Reply #15 on: 13 February 2019, 17:20:54 »

Having stood at the wingtip of a spitfire as it's started, you can watch little sprays of fuel eminating from each of the exhaust stubs as it goes through its' firing order. As the first cylinder to fire exhausts, the whole lot catches fire before the prop wash blows the fire out a second or two later and the ground starts shaking. ;D

Now that's a manly engine :)
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Re: Astra 1.6 rattle on cold start
« Reply #16 on: 13 February 2019, 17:24:53 »

Having stood at the wingtip of a spitfire as it's started, you can watch little sprays of fuel eminating from each of the exhaust stubs as it goes through its' firing order. As the first cylinder to fire exhausts, the whole lot catches fire before the prop wash blows the fire out a second or two later and the ground starts shaking. ;D

Now that's a manly engine :)
And the namby pamby millennial snowflakes will say its too dangerous....
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Lizzie Zoom

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Re: Astra 1.6 rattle on cold start
« Reply #17 on: 13 February 2019, 17:34:37 »

Having stood at the wingtip of a spitfire as it's started, you can watch little sprays of fuel eminating from each of the exhaust stubs as it goes through its' firing order. As the first cylinder to fire exhausts, the whole lot catches fire before the prop wash blows the fire out a second or two later and the ground starts shaking. ;D

Now that's a manly engine :)

And in their day those engines had the best RAF ground crew /  engineers working on them 24/7 to keep them in prime condition, even after they had been damaged in battle. However, given the loss rates of the fighters and bombers, so many of those engines never became old.   :'( :'(

They were fine engines that won the war, and even impressed the Yanks, who of course famously decided to fit Merlin's into their P51 Mustang's  to give them a superiority of performance and range that saved many a B17 and it's crew from late 1943. ;)
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Nick W

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Re: Astra 1.6 rattle on cold start
« Reply #18 on: 13 February 2019, 17:59:15 »

Having stood at the wingtip of a spitfire as it's started, you can watch little sprays of fuel eminating from each of the exhaust stubs as it goes through its' firing order. As the first cylinder to fire exhausts, the whole lot catches fire before the prop wash blows the fire out a second or two later and the ground starts shaking. ;D

Now that's a manly engine :)

And in their day those engines had the best RAF ground crew /  engineers working on them 24/7 to keep them in prime condition, even after they had been damaged in battle. However, given the loss rates of the fighters and bombers, so many of those engines never became old.   :'( :'(

They were fine engines that won the war, and even impressed the Yanks, who of course famously decided to fit Merlins into their P51 Mustang's  to give them a superiority of performance and range that saved many a B17 and it's crew from late 1943. ;)


They fitted Merlins because the original V12 didnt work too well. American planes mainly used radials because they proved much more durable and easier to make: damage a cylinder and you can replace it, damage a cylinder on a Merlin and you also replace it. The engine, that is!
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Re: Astra 1.6 rattle on cold start
« Reply #19 on: 13 February 2019, 18:08:53 »

Having stood at the wingtip of a spitfire as it's started, you can watch little sprays of fuel eminating from each of the exhaust stubs as it goes through its' firing order. As the first cylinder to fire exhausts, the whole lot catches fire before the prop wash blows the fire out a second or two later and the ground starts shaking. ;D

Now that's a manly engine :)

And in their day those engines had the best RAF ground crew /  engineers working on them 24/7 to keep them in prime condition, even after they had been damaged in battle. However, given the loss rates of the fighters and bombers, so many of those engines never became old.   :'( :'(

They were fine engines that won the war, and even impressed the Yanks, who of course famously decided to fit Merlins into their P51 Mustang's  to give them a superiority of performance and range that saved many a B17 and it's crew from late 1943. ;)


They fitted Merlins because the original V12 didnt work too well. American planes mainly used radials because they proved much more durable and easier to make: damage a cylinder and you can replace it, damage a cylinder on a Merlin and you also replace it. The engine, that is!

True, but, then again, making it an air cooled radial pretty much guaranteed that you'd be damaging cylinders in the first place.
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terry paget

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Re: Astra 1.6 rattle on cold start
« Reply #20 on: 13 February 2019, 22:56:32 »

Packards made the American Merlins, using Rolls Royce drawings and specifications. A speaker in Bristol told us that Packards complained that no torque wrench setting were included. RR retorted that their lads knew how tight to do up a nut, but anyhow they came with some torques and  Packard used them. It turned out later that Packard Merlins were more reliable than RR Merlins. Apocrythal? Who knows.
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Re: Astra 1.6 rattle on cold start
« Reply #21 on: 14 February 2019, 10:38:52 »

I am baffled by the referencing of air cooled radial engines in the above posts.

The P51's were initially fitted with Allison V-1710 V-12 liquid-cooled engine, not a radial, and not air cooled.  It was these engines that were replaced by he Packard manufactured RR Merlin V12 engines under licence. ;)
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Re: Astra 1.6 rattle on cold start
« Reply #22 on: 14 February 2019, 10:53:50 »

I am baffled by the referencing of air cooled radial engines in the above posts.

I believe Nick's words were "They fitted Merlins because the original V12 didnt work too well. American planes mainly used radials.." - two separate statements, the first about the P51, the latter about everything else (emphasis added by me) like the Corsair, Dauntless, Wildcat, Hellcat etc.. ;)

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Re: Astra 1.6 rattle on cold start
« Reply #23 on: 14 February 2019, 11:00:16 »

Has this thread gone off topic  :o or is Terry sticking a V12 airplane lump in  :-\
in which case ,he may wish to consider fitting better brakes etc
 :D ;D
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Re: Astra 1.6 rattle on cold start
« Reply #24 on: 14 February 2019, 11:26:27 »

Has this thread gone off topic  :o or is Terry sticking a V12 airplane lump in  :-\
in which case ,he may wish to consider fitting better brakes etc
 :D ;D

There is a slim connection Dave with the start of the thread and the subject of aero engines;  British car manufacturing plants during WW2 built them and that experience must have helped the future development of engines, such as that for the Astra :D :D :D ;)

Anyway, with OOF threads who knows where they are going to end up when they are started! ;D ;D ;D
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Re: Astra 1.6 rattle on cold start
« Reply #25 on: 14 February 2019, 11:50:48 »

Has this thread gone off topic  :o or is Terry sticking a V12 airplane lump in  :-\
in which case ,he may wish to consider fitting better brakes etc
 :D ;D

There is a slim connection Dave with the start of the thread and the subject of aero engines;  British car manufacturing plants during WW2 built them and that experience must have helped the future development of engines, such as that for the Astra :D :D :D ;)

Anyway, with OOF threads who knows where they are going to end up when they are started! ;D ;D ;D
;) :D ;D

OK , plus fitting an aero engine would probably cause more rattles and bring on the EML (which would be an MOT fail )  ;D
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Re: Astra 1.6 rattle on cold start
« Reply #26 on: 14 February 2019, 17:53:52 »

Has this thread gone off topic  :o or is Terry sticking a V12 airplane lump in  :-\
in which case ,he may wish to consider fitting better brakes etc
 :D ;D


Better off using a Meteor, which is intended to have a gearbox bolted on the back, rather than the propeller reduction gear on the front. Cheaper too.


And my point about US radials is that they were to the Merlin what a high-spec small block Chevy is to a Ferrari V12: similar power, but much cheaper to make, easier to work on, fits in a smaller space and more durable.
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Re: Astra 1.6 rattle on cold start
« Reply #27 on: 14 February 2019, 18:34:07 »

Has this thread gone off topic  :o or is Terry sticking a V12 airplane lump in  :-\
in which case ,he may wish to consider fitting better brakes etc
 :D ;D


Better off using a Meteor, which is intended to have a gearbox bolted on the back, rather than the propeller reduction gear on the front. Cheaper too.


And my point about US radials is that they were to the Merlin what a high-spec small block Chevy is to a Ferrari V12: similar power, but much cheaper to make, easier to work on, fits in a smaller space and more durable.

The radials were inferior and did not have similar power. That is why all Allied main fighters and bombers were equipped with water or oil cooled in line or V configuration engines that could out perform any radial that by then belonged to the early era of flying. If radials had been so good, and able to be developed further, then they would have been.

Without the Merlin V12 the famous planes we know of today would have, back in WW2, been driven from the sky by German aircraft and we would be speaking German ;)
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Re: Astra 1.6 rattle on cold start
« Reply #28 on: 14 February 2019, 18:37:31 »

Has this thread gone off topic  :o or is Terry sticking a V12 airplane lump in  :-\
in which case ,he may wish to consider fitting better brakes etc
 :D ;D


Better off using a Meteor, which is intended to have a gearbox bolted on the back, rather than the propeller reduction gear on the front. Cheaper too.


And my point about US radials is that they were to the Merlin what a high-spec small block Chevy is to a Ferrari V12: similar power, but much cheaper to make, easier to work on, fits in a smaller space and more durable.

The radials were inferior and did not have similar power. That is why all Allied main fighters and bombers were equipped with water or oil cooled in line or V configuration engines that could out perform any radial that by then belonged to the early era of flying. If radials had been so good, and able to be developed further, then they would have been.

Without the Merlin V12 the famous planes we know of today would have, back in WW2, been driven from the sky by German aircraft and we would be speaking German ;)
Re read the analogy and report back ;)
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Re: Astra 1.6 rattle on cold start
« Reply #29 on: 14 February 2019, 19:02:49 »

The radials were inferior and did not have similar power. That is why all Allied main fighters and bombers were equipped with water or oil cooled in line or V configuration engines that could out perform any radial that by then belonged to the early era of flying. If radials had been so good, and able to be developed further, then they would have been.





Look at American stuff again. Radials are everywhere. They were still fitted in high performance fighters into the fifties; look up Grumman's Corsair, which makes a Spitfire look slow, expensive, hard to fly and unreliable.


Even the workhorse P&W 1830(DC3 engine and bomber, so it's like a truck motor compared to a racecar) makes 1200hp when supercharged. A radial engined DC3 is still the most cost effective way of moving 3 tons of stuff of short grass strips.
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Re: Astra 1.6 rattle on cold start
« Reply #30 on: 14 February 2019, 20:09:51 »

The radials were inferior and did not have similar power. That is why all Allied main fighters and bombers were equipped with water or oil cooled in line or V configuration engines that could out perform any radial that by then belonged to the early era of flying. If radials had been so good, and able to be developed further, then they would have been.





Look at American stuff again. Radials are everywhere. They were still fitted in high performance fighters into the fifties; look up Grumman's Corsair, which makes a Spitfire look slow, expensive, hard to fly and unreliable.


Even the workhorse P&W 1830(DC3 engine and bomber, so it's like a truck motor compared to a racecar) makes 1200hp when supercharged. A radial engined DC3 is still the most cost effective way of moving 3 tons of stuff of short grass strips.

I accept of course that radials continued to be in use both during and post WW2. But, the point is that the aircraft fitted with inline, water or oil cooled engines, can be far more streamlined, therefore faster, as they have far less frontal resistance to air flow, which of course they need to cool the engine.  Aircraft development before the jet focuses on non-radial engines as it became very apparent that the more aircraft was streamlined the more economical and efficient it would be, that is why the Spitfire and the Mustang were so advanced and a winner against even other inline engined aircraft, such as the German ME109.  Even the famous German FW190 found it's original radial engine restrictive, with power declining above 20,000ft, and had that engine replaced by an inverted v12 in a long nose FW190 C, which then gave the aircraft parity against the Mustang over Germany. It was too late though to make a real difference, and then the ME 262 came along and signalled the end for all piston driven fighters. ;)

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Re: Astra 1.6 rattle on cold start
« Reply #31 on: 14 February 2019, 22:13:22 »

The point remains that the Merlin is carved from the finest marble (the flying Ferrari V12) and the radials are poured concrete (the Chevy V8)...

Yes the Merlin is a work of art, and unlike the radial, can't be fixed in a swamp using frog guts, chewing gum and tobacco...
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Re: Astra 1.6 rattle on cold start
« Reply #32 on: 15 February 2019, 00:03:35 »


I accept of course that radials continued to be in use both during and post WW2. But, the point is that the aircraft fitted with inline, water or oil cooled engines, can be far more streamlined, therefore faster, as they have far less frontal resistance to air flow, which of course they need to cool the engine.  Aircraft development before the jet focuses on non-radial engines as it became very apparent that the more aircraft was streamlined the more economical and efficient it would be, that is why the Spitfire and the Mustang were so advanced and a winner against even other inline engined aircraft, such as the German ME109.  Even the famous German FW190 found it's original radial engine restrictive, with power declining above 20,000ft, and had that engine replaced by an inverted v12 in a long nose FW190 C, which then gave the aircraft parity against the Mustang over Germany. It was too late though to make a real difference, and then the ME 262 came along and signalled the end for all piston driven fighters. ;)


There's far more to a high performance fighter than just how streamlined the engine installation is.
As a historian, you really ought to look at some of the figures: a late Griffon engined Spitfire isn't any faster than a similarly powered Corsair that is considerably heavier(because it was designed for carrier use) and better armed(which is what matters, the rest of the machine is simply there to transport the guns to wherever they're needed). It benefits from being an early forties design(engine and airframe) intended for volume production, rather than one that's basically an early thirties handbuilt special.
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Re: Astra 1.6 rattle on cold start
« Reply #33 on: 15 February 2019, 08:55:41 »

Poor Terry is never getting that rattle sorted, is he..  ;D
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Re: Astra 1.6 rattle on cold start
« Reply #34 on: 15 February 2019, 09:54:17 »

Poor Terry is never getting that rattle sorted, is he..  ;D
do you think a merlin engine will fit ?
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Re: Astra 1.6 rattle on cold start
« Reply #35 on: 15 February 2019, 10:24:36 »

If only we'd had access to engines from the mighty Astra in WWII. It would have been over in days. ;D
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Re: Astra 1.6 rattle on cold start
« Reply #36 on: 15 February 2019, 12:07:14 »


I accept of course that radials continued to be in use both during and post WW2. But, the point is that the aircraft fitted with inline, water or oil cooled engines, can be far more streamlined, therefore faster, as they have far less frontal resistance to air flow, which of course they need to cool the engine.  Aircraft development before the jet focuses on non-radial engines as it became very apparent that the more aircraft was streamlined the more economical and efficient it would be, that is why the Spitfire and the Mustang were so advanced and a winner against even other inline engined aircraft, such as the German ME109.  Even the famous German FW190 found it's original radial engine restrictive, with power declining above 20,000ft, and had that engine replaced by an inverted v12 in a long nose FW190 C, which then gave the aircraft parity against the Mustang over Germany. It was too late though to make a real difference, and then the ME 262 came along and signalled the end for all piston driven fighters. ;)


There's far more to a high performance fighter than just how streamlined the engine installation is.
As a historian, you really ought to look at some of the figures: a late Griffon engined Spitfire isn't any faster than a similarly powered Corsair that is considerably heavier(because it was designed for carrier use) and better armed(which is what matters, the rest of the machine is simply there to transport the guns to wherever they're needed). It benefits from being an early forties design(engine and airframe) intended for volume production, rather than one that's basically an early thirties handbuilt special.

As an historian I know whatever piston aero engine was around at the end of WW2, and the valid arguments about the for's and againsts of each type, it was an obsolete means of propulsion for any fighter aircraft, although many air forces carried on using them, as you rightly state, into the Korean War. 

From the introduction of the the Luftwaffe ME262 in 1941, although not fully operational until 1944, and RAF British Gloster Meteor in 1943, it was the age of the jet engine.  The ME262 was actually superior to the Gloster Meteor, but shortage of pilots, fuel and parts greatly restricted their full use to combat the bomber fleets attacking Germany.  So, as historians do, arguments for and against the facts can be disputed or upheld, the true fact is that by 1945 it was the age of the new fangled jets, and the piston engined aircraft belonged to the age before WW2.

Therefore, Terry's Astra really needs a jet engine to bring it bang up to date for maximum speed and performance..................on salt flats somewhere!! ::) ::) :D :D :D ;)
« Last Edit: 15 February 2019, 12:08:49 by Lizzie Zoom »
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Re: Astra 1.6 rattle on cold start
« Reply #37 on: 15 February 2019, 13:24:48 »


I accept of course that radials continued to be in use both during and post WW2. But, the point is that the aircraft fitted with inline, water or oil cooled engines, can be far more streamlined, therefore faster, as they have far less frontal resistance to air flow, which of course they need to cool the engine.  Aircraft development before the jet focuses on non-radial engines as it became very apparent that the more aircraft was streamlined the more economical and efficient it would be, that is why the Spitfire and the Mustang were so advanced and a winner against even other inline engined aircraft, such as the German ME109.  Even the famous German FW190 found it's original radial engine restrictive, with power declining above 20,000ft, and had that engine replaced by an inverted v12 in a long nose FW190 C, which then gave the aircraft parity against the Mustang over Germany. It was too late though to make a real difference, and then the ME 262 came along and signalled the end for all piston driven fighters. ;)


There's far more to a high performance fighter than just how streamlined the engine installation is.
As a historian, you really ought to look at some of the figures: a late Griffon engined Spitfire isn't any faster than a similarly powered Corsair that is considerably heavier(because it was designed for carrier use) and better armed(which is what matters, the rest of the machine is simply there to transport the guns to wherever they're needed). It benefits from being an early forties design(engine and airframe) intended for volume production, rather than one that's basically an early thirties handbuilt special.

As a keen hobbyist I presume to know whatever piston aero engine was around at the end of WW2, and the valid arguments about the for's and againsts of each type, it was an obsolete means of propulsion for any fighter aircraft, although many air forces carried on using them, as you rightly state, into the Korean War. 

From the introduction of the the Luftwaffe ME262 in 1941, although not fully operational until 1944, and RAF British Gloster Meteor in 1943, it was the age of the jet engine.  The ME262 was actually superior to the Gloster Meteor, but shortage of pilots, fuel and parts greatly restricted their full use to combat the bomber fleets attacking Germany.  So, as historians do, arguments for and against the facts can be disputed or upheld, the true fact is that by 1945 it was the age of the new fangled jets, and the piston engined aircraft belonged to the age before WW2.

Therefore, Terry's Astra really needs a jet engine to bring it bang up to date for maximum speed and performance..................on salt flats somewhere!! ::) ::) :D :D :D ;)
Fixed... ::)

As for the Astra, you might squeeze an RB211 core into an Astramax :D
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Re: Astra 1.6 rattle on cold start
« Reply #38 on: 15 February 2019, 16:25:10 »

From the introduction of the the Luftwaffe ME262 in 1941, although not fully operational until 1944, and RAF British Gloster Meteor in 1943, it was the age of the jet engine.  The ME262 was actually superior to the Gloster Meteor, but shortage of pilots, fuel and parts greatly restricted their full use to combat the bomber fleets attacking Germany.  So, as historians do, arguments for and against the facts can be disputed or upheld, the true fact is that by 1945 it was the age of the new fangled jets, and the piston engined aircraft belonged to the age before WW2.



I think you're letting your enthusiam get the better of you: those jet engined fighters were typical of any first generation tech, of limited value, except to show what the future would bring. And as far as airborne warfare was concerned, WW2 actually morphed into the helicopter age.
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Re: Astra 1.6 rattle on cold start
« Reply #39 on: 15 February 2019, 17:01:09 »


I accept of course that radials continued to be in use both during and post WW2. But, the point is that the aircraft fitted with inline, water or oil cooled engines, can be far more streamlined, therefore faster, as they have far less frontal resistance to air flow, which of course they need to cool the engine.  Aircraft development before the jet focuses on non-radial engines as it became very apparent that the more aircraft was streamlined the more economical and efficient it would be, that is why the Spitfire and the Mustang were so advanced and a winner against even other inline engined aircraft, such as the German ME109.  Even the famous German FW190 found it's original radial engine restrictive, with power declining above 20,000ft, and had that engine replaced by an inverted v12 in a long nose FW190 C, which then gave the aircraft parity against the Mustang over Germany. It was too late though to make a real difference, and then the ME 262 came along and signalled the end for all piston driven fighters. ;)


There's far more to a high performance fighter than just how streamlined the engine installation is.
As a historian, you really ought to look at some of the figures: a late Griffon engined Spitfire isn't any faster than a similarly powered Corsair that is considerably heavier(because it was designed for carrier use) and better armed(which is what matters, the rest of the machine is simply there to transport the guns to wherever they're needed). It benefits from being an early forties design(engine and airframe) intended for volume production, rather than one that's basically an early thirties handbuilt special.

As a keen hobbyist I presume to know whatever piston aero engine was around at the end of WW2,

Therefore, Terry's Astra really needs a jet engine to bring it bang up to date for maximum speed and performance..................on salt flats somewhere!! ::) ::) :D :D :D ;)
Fixed... ::)

As for the Astra, you might squeeze an RB211 core into an Astramax :D

Wrong, so wrong ::) ::) ::) ;)
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Re: Astra 1.6 rattle on cold start
« Reply #40 on: 15 February 2019, 17:53:45 »

.......................and just to add DG since I was small I was surrounded by books on WW2 aircraft and ships, along with the politics of those times, with a father who taught all of us on the history of it all from a practical viewpoint and in theory.

I have also spent years studying, as much as time would allow, history generally, concentrating on the Tudors and then the 18th and 19th centuries,  but then heavily the WW1 and WW2 periods and 20th century due to my early up bringing.

 My knowledge is never complete as there is always more to learn, as I have with this thread, but I do know the difference between a Battlecruiser, Cruiser, Gladiator, Swordfish, Thunderbolt, Corsair, Spitfire, etc, and most of the bombers of the Allied and German forces.  My grandfather was killed by a bomb from a Junkers 88 whilst being chased by RAF fighters, so that has helped my learning, and has made me far from a hobbyist with studying history at university and walking the battlefields increasing my understanding.

Just because someone has a different viewpoint, as frequently happens with history, does not devalue or appreciate the worth of that; it makes the discussion of history even more interesting than it is already! 8) 8) :D ;)
« Last Edit: 15 February 2019, 17:56:35 by Lizzie Zoom »
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Re: Astra 1.6 rattle on cold start
« Reply #41 on: 15 February 2019, 19:27:57 »

Every family has a past were people were deeply, and often gravely, affected. I could list everything my grandparents did during WW2, but it would be incredibly disrespectful to everyone who served to reduce their lives to a pissing contest.

You enjoy studying history. That's great, but please try and refrain from passing subjective opinion as fact, or worse, superiority.
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Re: Astra 1.6 rattle on cold start
« Reply #42 on: 15 February 2019, 19:36:10 »

So did Terry do anything about his rattle or not?  ::)
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Re: Astra 1.6 rattle on cold start
« Reply #43 on: 15 February 2019, 19:37:36 »

Every family has a past were people were deeply, and often gravely, affected. I could list everything my grandparents did during WW2, but it would be incredibly disrespectful to everyone who served to reduce their lives to a pissing contest.

You enjoy studying history. That's great, but please try and refrain from passing subjective opinion as fact, or worse, superiority.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.
What, like you do!   ::) ::) ::)


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Re: Astra 1.6 rattle on cold start
« Reply #44 on: 15 February 2019, 19:37:56 »

So did Terry do anything about his rattle or not?  ::)
Rattle? Have I missed something?  ;D
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Re: Astra 1.6 rattle on cold start
« Reply #45 on: 15 February 2019, 19:38:04 »

So did Terry do anything about his rattle or not?  ::)
Three oil changes and fixed the fan... Whether anything helped or not is any one's guess :D
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Re: Astra 1.6 rattle on cold start
« Reply #46 on: 15 February 2019, 19:43:46 »

So did Terry do anything about his rattle or not?  ::)
he's had 3 new cars since then  ;D
we told Terry to leave the rattle alone until it impacted forward motion of the astra  :y
 
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Re: Astra 1.6 rattle on cold start
« Reply #47 on: 16 February 2019, 15:25:02 »

No-one has mentioned arguably the best British WW2 aircraft powered by the Merlin, the Mosquito. Designed by de Havilland as a private venture and made of wood, it turned out to be faster than the Spitfire, and much more versatile. It saw service as a night fighter, a bomber, and, equipped with a 6 pounder gun, a U-boat killer. By 1945 most of Britain's bombers were Mosquitos.
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Re: Astra 1.6 rattle on cold start
« Reply #48 on: 16 February 2019, 16:07:23 »

No-one has mentioned arguably the best British WW2 aircraft powered by the Merlin, the Mosquito. Designed by de Havilland as a private venture and made of wood, it turned out to be faster than the Spitfire, and much more versatile. It saw service as a night fighter, a bomber, and, equipped with a 6 pounder gun, a U-boat killer. By 1945 most of Britain's bombers were Mosquitos.

Did they rattle on cold start ups?  :-\
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Re: Astra 1.6 rattle on cold start
« Reply #49 on: 16 February 2019, 16:12:43 »

No-one has mentioned arguably the best British WW2 aircraft powered by the Merlin, the Mosquito. Designed by de Havilland as a private venture and made of wood, it turned out to be faster than the Spitfire, and much more versatile. It saw service as a night fighter, a bomber, and, equipped with a 6 pounder gun, a U-boat killer. By 1945 most of Britain's bombers were Mosquitos.

Did they rattle on cold start ups?  :-\


They're so bloody loud you wouldn't hear it if they did.
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