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Author Topic: Car not starting. Code p0650 still present  (Read 5949 times)

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berserkerboy

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Car not starting. Code p0650 still present
« on: 22 May 2017, 20:03:29 »

Hi folks wondering if anyone can help with the above.

Had been using the car so it was hot. I had switched engine off, but when I tried to restart the car it turned over but wouldn't start. I played around with the starter motor turning and switching between petrol and gas and the car finally started. I think I may have managed to start it on gas. The car ran fine. As soon as I turned it off it wouldn't start again.

Have used "My Naff Code Reader" on it and the following codes showed.

P0650 (4) unknown present
P0430 (1) unknown present
P0420 (1) unknown not present
P1612 (0) unknown not present

cleared faults and attempted to start again with no luck.

P0650 showed up again.

This is listed as:

P0650 Malfunction Indicator (MI) Control Circuit High Instrument
P0650 Malfunction Indicator (MI) Control Circuit Low Instrument
P0650 Malfunction Indicator (MI) Control Circuit Open Instrument

Anyone know what this is?

Cheers
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Doctor Gollum

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Re: Car not starting. Code p0650 still present
« Reply #1 on: 22 May 2017, 20:12:15 »

Engine management light blown or missing ;)

Won't affect starting though...
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Re: Car not starting. Code p0650 still present
« Reply #2 on: 22 May 2017, 20:12:39 »

What's the fuel level?
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berserkerboy

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Re: Car not starting. Code p0650 still present
« Reply #3 on: 22 May 2017, 22:08:34 »

Over 1/4 full tank. Funily enough I had only just put a bit more fuel in......surely not the reason? Duff fuel? Yes EML was removed by previous owner after LPG instal as it was continually on.
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berserkerboy

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Re: Car not starting. Code p0650 still present
« Reply #4 on: 22 May 2017, 22:13:04 »

P1612 Immobiliser No Or Wrong Signal Immobiliser

This code had been generated but was no longer present. It didn't get regenerated once cleared. I could understand why the car wont start if there was an issue here
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Lazydocker

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Re: Car not starting. Code p0650 still present
« Reply #5 on: 22 May 2017, 22:23:15 »

Over 1/4 full tank. Funily enough I had only just put a bit more fuel in......surely not the reason? Duff fuel? Yes EML was removed by previous owner after LPG instal as it was continually on.

Which means the LPG installation is sub-standard and could (potentially) cause engine problems.  ::)

As for the current problem, I'd put my 2p on Crank Sensor failing :-X
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berserkerboy

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Re: Car not starting. Code p0650 still present
« Reply #6 on: 22 May 2017, 22:29:33 »

Over 1/4 full tank. Funily enough I had only just put a bit more fuel in......surely not the reason? Duff fuel? Yes EML was removed by previous owner after LPG instal as it was continually on.

Which means the LPG installation is sub-standard and could (potentially) cause engine problems.  ::)

As for the current problem, I'd put my 2p on Crank Sensor failing :-X
Wouldn't that generate a code?
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berserkerboy

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Re: Car not starting. Code p0650 still present
« Reply #7 on: 22 May 2017, 22:30:37 »

Crank sensor was replaced a couple years ago. Probably only about 10k done since.
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berserkerboy

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Re: Car not starting. Code p0650 still present
« Reply #8 on: 22 May 2017, 22:44:15 »

Just googled car not starting after refuel.

Found this regarding a vectra: Check the condition of your petrol filter under the rear drivers side wheel, if its rusty its probably got a slight leak and when you open the fuel cap you cause a air lock.

Will check it tomorrow. I guess a mechanical problem like this wouldn't generate a code but I would have thought I'd be able to smell fuel?

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BazaJT

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Re: Car not starting. Code p0650 still present
« Reply #9 on: 23 May 2017, 08:06:05 »

My money would be on crank sensor too.When you replaced yours a while back did you use genuine GM? or A.N.Other? I believe crank sensor failure doesn't always throw a code,others may be able to advise better on that.
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Re: Car not starting. Code p0650 still present
« Reply #10 on: 23 May 2017, 10:27:21 »

Agreed re crank sensor, although as LD suggests, lpg install being less than great could point to other issues.

If an estate, put another 2 gallons in and retry :y
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terry paget

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Re: Car not starting. Code p0650 still present
« Reply #11 on: 23 May 2017, 13:53:23 »

It's easier to check fuel feed by removing the feed pipe at manifold, then having wife crank engine while you point the pipe into a jar.
Is it possible you put in diesel, not petrol? 
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zirk

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Re: Car not starting. Code p0650 still present
« Reply #12 on: 23 May 2017, 14:46:16 »

Does it start ok if you false start it on LPG?
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berserkerboy

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Re: Car not starting. Code p0650 still present
« Reply #13 on: 23 May 2017, 18:00:42 »

My money would be on crank sensor too.When you replaced yours a while back did you use genuine GM? or A.N.Other? I believe crank sensor failure doesn't always throw a code,others may be able to advise better on that.

It was OE, bosch I think
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berserkerboy

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Re: Car not starting. Code p0650 still present
« Reply #14 on: 23 May 2017, 18:07:30 »

Does it start ok if you false start it on LPG?

I think I did this and yes it was running okay until I turned it off again. How do you false start on LPG so I can try that again? The system is stag 300 plus.
I think as it was running okay on gas that maybe the crank sensor is okay.
I have been reading that LPG cars sometimes get a petrol pump failure due to running around with 1/4 tank of fuel.
New filter ordered and can get a new pump for £20 if necessary.
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berserkerboy

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Re: Car not starting. Code p0650 still present
« Reply #15 on: 23 May 2017, 18:09:27 »

It's easier to check fuel feed by removing the feed pipe at manifold, then having wife crank engine while you point the pipe into a jar.
Is it possible you put in diesel, not petrol?
Only if station had wrong fuel in tank as receipt says unleaded.
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berserkerboy

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Re: Car not starting. Code p0650 still present
« Reply #16 on: 23 May 2017, 18:11:14 »

It's easier to check fuel feed by removing the feed pipe at manifold, then having wife crank engine while you point the pipe into a jar.
Is it possible you put in diesel, not petrol?
I'd like to try this. Is it obvious where the feed pipe at manifold is?
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Re: Car not starting. Code p0650 still present
« Reply #17 on: 23 May 2017, 18:12:58 »

It's easier to check fuel feed by removing the feed pipe at manifold, then having wife crank engine while you point the pipe into a jar.
Is it possible you put in diesel, not petrol?


Just unscrew the valve core in the pressure port.
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Re: Car not starting. Code p0650 still present
« Reply #18 on: 23 May 2017, 18:19:43 »

Does it start ok if you false start it on LPG?

I think I did this and yes it was running okay until I turned it off again. How do you false start on LPG so I can try that again? The system is stag 300 plus.
I think as it was running okay on gas that maybe the crank sensor is okay.
I have been reading that LPG cars sometimes get a petrol pump failure due to running around with 1/4 tank of fuel.
New filter ordered and can get a new pump for £20 if necessary.

Its normally if you press the lpg button in and try to start it at the same time.....if the button is pressed at the same time as starting it will start on lpg.....altho it will be lumpy as the engine hasn't got warm and heated the lpg side  :y
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Re: Car not starting. Code p0650 still present
« Reply #19 on: 23 May 2017, 18:30:31 »

Put 2 more gallons in and report back...
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Re: Car not starting. Code p0650 still present
« Reply #20 on: 23 May 2017, 19:40:38 »

Good news and bad news.

False started on LPG. Engine ran.
I then put more petrol in so I am just under 1/2 full and car started on petrol.
Wish I'd tried first again on petrol before I did anything as it would have revealed more if the car started.
As it stands I guess it could still be crank sensor if no code is generated as now the car engine is cold. Although the last time the crank sensor failed, a code was generated.
No new codes generated
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Re: Car not starting. Code p0650 still present
« Reply #21 on: 23 May 2017, 20:41:37 »

Good news and bad news.

False started on LPG. Engine ran.
I then put more petrol in so I am just under 1/2 full and car started on petrol.
Wish I'd tried first again on petrol before I did anything as it would have revealed more if the car started.
As it stands I guess it could still be crank sensor if no code is generated as now the car engine is cold. Although the last time the crank sensor failed, a code was generated.
No new codes generated

Sounds more like weak fuel pump :-\
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berserkerboy

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Re: Car not starting. Code p0650 still present
« Reply #22 on: 23 May 2017, 21:30:46 »

Yep, I'm inclined to agree. When the car wouldn't start yesterday I inadvertantly did a false LPG start and the car ran fine. It appears to be petrol fuel related.
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Re: Car not starting. Code p0650 still present
« Reply #23 on: 23 May 2017, 21:40:15 »

Or it was parked on a slope...
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Re: Car not starting. Code p0650 still present
« Reply #24 on: 23 May 2017, 21:45:17 »

I've done that before.  :'( But it wasn't on this occasion. :y
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Re: Car not starting. Code p0650 still present
« Reply #25 on: 23 May 2017, 22:06:56 »

How much bother would this be to fit after removing the cover plate and big plastic sealing ring?

https://www.worldcarparts.co.uk/fuel-pump-for-vauxhall-astra-corsa-vectra-carlton-cavalier-omega-zafira
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Re: Car not starting. Code p0650 still present
« Reply #26 on: 23 May 2017, 22:24:26 »

How much bother would this be to fit after removing the cover plate and big plastic sealing ring?

https://www.worldcarparts.co.uk/fuel-pump-for-vauxhall-astra-corsa-vectra-carlton-cavalier-omega-zafira


It's no different to fitting a traditional electric fuel pump.


The 'hard' part is undoing the plastic locking ring to remove the pump/float assembly.
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Re: Car not starting. Code p0650 still present
« Reply #27 on: 23 May 2017, 23:31:52 »

In my experience 'weak' fuel pumps, or more likely kinked fuel pipes near the fuel filter, can limit fuel delivery rate, but it does not affect starting, and only make itself known at times of sustained maximum power demand, when the engine will suddenly cut out.
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berserkerboy

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Re: Car not starting. Code p0650 still present
« Reply #28 on: 24 May 2017, 07:13:15 »

How much bother would this be to fit after removing the cover plate and big plastic sealing ring?

https://www.worldcarparts.co.uk/fuel-pump-for-vauxhall-astra-corsa-vectra-carlton-cavalier-omega-zafira


It's no different to fitting a traditional electric fuel pump.


The 'hard' part is undoing the plastic locking ring to remove the pump/float assembly.

Yeah, I've done a few of them and can vouch for that. Was thinking of trying to make a tool of sorts to grab either side of the ring. Maybe an old pair of garden shears with a few angle grinder alterations.

However, Terry's comments on weak fuel pumps are interesting.

Gonna change the filter, get the wife to turn the ignition on to see what kind of pressure the fuel pump is giving and go from there. ???
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Re: Car not starting. Code p0650 still present
« Reply #29 on: 24 May 2017, 09:08:03 »

How much bother would this be to fit after removing the cover plate and big plastic sealing ring?

https://www.worldcarparts.co.uk/fuel-pump-for-vauxhall-astra-corsa-vectra-carlton-cavalier-omega-zafira


It's no different to fitting a traditional electric fuel pump.


The 'hard' part is undoing the plastic locking ring to remove the pump/float assembly.

Yeah, I've done a few of them and can vouch for that. Was thinking of trying to make a tool of sorts to grab either side of the ring. Maybe an old pair of garden shears with a few angle grinder alterations.

However, Terry's comments on weak fuel pumps are interesting.

Gonna change the filter, get the wife to turn the ignition on to see what kind of pressure the fuel pump is giving and go from there. ???

That will tell you very little 😉

You could try changing the filter first though

I take out sender units all the time... there is a decent tool but it's about £50 but I find a blunted pry bat and non sparking hammer is generally the easiest way
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Re: Car not starting. Code p0650 still present
« Reply #30 on: 24 May 2017, 09:40:39 »

How much bother would this be to fit after removing the cover plate and big plastic sealing ring?

https://www.worldcarparts.co.uk/fuel-pump-for-vauxhall-astra-corsa-vectra-carlton-cavalier-omega-zafira


It's no different to fitting a traditional electric fuel pump.


The 'hard' part is undoing the plastic locking ring to remove the pump/float assembly.

Yeah, I've done a few of them and can vouch for that. Was thinking of trying to make a tool of sorts to grab either side of the ring. Maybe an old pair of garden shears with a few angle grinder alterations.

However, Terry's comments on weak fuel pumps are interesting.

Gonna change the filter, get the wife to turn the ignition on to see what kind of pressure the fuel pump is giving and go from there. ???
Easier way of checking fuel feed is to put right foot hard down at 20mph on a straight empty road. If engine does not cut out within 40 second fuel feed is good.
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Re: Car not starting. Code p0650 still present
« Reply #31 on: 31 May 2017, 17:59:48 »

How much bother would this be to fit after removing the cover plate and big plastic sealing ring?

https://www.worldcarparts.co.uk/fuel-pump-for-vauxhall-astra-corsa-vectra-carlton-cavalier-omega-zafira


It's no different to fitting a traditional electric fuel pump.


The 'hard' part is undoing the plastic locking ring to remove the pump/float assembly.

Yeah, I've done a few of them and can vouch for that. Was thinking of trying to make a tool of sorts to grab either side of the ring. Maybe an old pair of garden shears with a few angle grinder alterations.

However, Terry's comments on weak fuel pumps are interesting.

Gonna change the filter, get the wife to turn the ignition on to see what kind of pressure the fuel pump is giving and go from there. ???

Filter done. Not too bad a job with the cable clip pliers. Car definately running better, nice smooth tickover with no variation in revs like it used to. Hope this is the cure...Time will tell  :D
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Re: Car not starting. Code p0650 still present
« Reply #32 on: 12 June 2017, 13:59:52 »

Nope! Car wouldn't start today. Fuel pump not working. Car fired up with easy start after the air filter and then conked out. Put 12v to the pump from the battery, no noise. Am ordering one
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Re: Car not starting. Code p0650 still present
« Reply #33 on: 12 June 2017, 18:24:36 »

Make sure you have a spare top bit for the tank, as the pipes can be quite rusty, and can fail when messed about with.
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Re: Car not starting. Code p0650 still present
« Reply #34 on: 12 June 2017, 18:39:10 »

Yep, had that before. Present car doesn't look too bad. :y
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Re: Car not starting. Code p0650 still present
« Reply #35 on: 19 June 2017, 16:25:10 »

New pump hasn't solved this. When I turn ignition on there is briefly 12v at external connector for the pump which then dies away. Pump is not pumping at all. I can hard start on gas but when I try to turn back to petrol the stag system will not allow it.
Presumably, the fact that the car starts on gas rules out crank sensor?
The pump fuse is fine.
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Re: Car not starting. Code p0650 still present
« Reply #36 on: 19 June 2017, 16:31:25 »

Easy start won't have helped... Change the two purple relays, put three gallons more fuel in and report back.
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Re: Car not starting. Code p0650 still present
« Reply #37 on: 19 June 2017, 20:01:33 »

Do you mean the purple 80a fuses on top of the battery? I have checked these for continuity and they are fine. Petrol tank is 3/8 full and car is on the flat. Will the extra fuel help?
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Re: Car not starting. Code p0650 still present
« Reply #38 on: 19 June 2017, 20:10:34 »

Do you mean the purple 80a fuses on top of the battery? I have checked these for continuity and they are fine. Petrol tank is 3/8 full and car is on the flat. Will the extra fuel help?
I believe that I meant the purple RELAYS... ;)

3/8 should be enough, but adding more will rule it out... Just because the pump runs, it doesn't mean that it's drawing fuel. 

Actually you only need to swap out the injector relay as the fuel pump one clearly works... Swap them over and see if the pump still runs when ignition first switched on... If it does, both relays are fine and you need to add more fuel. If the pump doesn't prime then you've found your problem :y
« Last Edit: 19 June 2017, 20:15:49 by Doctor Gollum »
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Re: Car not starting. Code p0650 still present
« Reply #39 on: 19 June 2017, 20:13:35 »

Oops! Sorry. ;D. Where is best place to get replacements. GM?
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Re: Car not starting. Code p0650 still present
« Reply #40 on: 19 June 2017, 20:21:20 »

Yup, but re read and digest the whole post... Might be you don't need it...

One relay powers the pump, tother the injectors ;)
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berserkerboy

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Re: Car not starting. Code p0650 still present
« Reply #41 on: 19 June 2017, 21:17:59 »

So is it right that you get 12v on turning on the ignition which then reduces almost immediately?
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berserkerboy

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Re: Car not starting. Code p0650 still present
« Reply #42 on: 19 June 2017, 21:18:31 »

Will swap them over and report back. :)
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Re: Car not starting. Code p0650 still present
« Reply #43 on: 19 June 2017, 21:46:18 »

Both behaving the same 12v down to zero.
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berserkerboy

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Re: Car not starting. Code p0650 still present
« Reply #44 on: 19 June 2017, 22:20:38 »

Put more fuel in. 1/2 full. Still no joy. Damn! Car not starting on gas now. Had enough for today. Battery on charge. Hope to get it started tomorrow but think this car is trying to tell me something.  :'(
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berserkerboy

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Re: Car not starting. Code p0650 still present
« Reply #45 on: 20 June 2017, 21:52:43 »

Car starting on gas again. But wont run on petrol.
Is it possible that this might be a crank sensor issue even though it will run on gas? I'm thinking not as surely all the crank sensor gives is a pulse?
MOT tomorrow. I'd better not run out of gas ;D
Not sure where to go after that. I suppose that she might be worth something with a years ticket.
« Last Edit: 20 June 2017, 21:54:16 by berserkerboy »
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berserkerboy

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Re: Car not starting. Code p0650 still present
« Reply #46 on: 21 June 2017, 20:08:51 »

Nah. More welding needed. That's that then. On egay she goes, I will miss her. Thanks everyone for all your help but this car is trying to tell me something.
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