Omega Owners Forum

Chat Area => General Car Chat => Topic started by: Steve Brookman on 14 January 2017, 14:22:19

Title: Senator A2.
Post by: Steve Brookman on 14 January 2017, 14:22:19
Hello all,
I've just bought a Senator to go with my Royale Coupe.

(http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/ah18/stevebrookman/sen6_zpsvy3ftrns.jpg) (http://s1376.photobucket.com/user/stevebrookman/media/sen6_zpsvy3ftrns.jpg.html)

(http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/ah18/stevebrookman/sen5_zpsk6dtjdxt.jpg) (http://s1376.photobucket.com/user/stevebrookman/media/sen5_zpsk6dtjdxt.jpg.html)

(http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/ah18/stevebrookman/sen2_zpsfxmfvy9h.jpg) (http://s1376.photobucket.com/user/stevebrookman/media/sen2_zpsfxmfvy9h.jpg.html)

(http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/ah18/stevebrookman/sen8_zpswegsfmwx.jpg) (http://s1376.photobucket.com/user/stevebrookman/media/sen8_zpswegsfmwx.jpg.html)


Needs two new doors but came with 4 good spare doors and a front wing. Apparently the 62000 miles is genuine.
It's mot'd till the end of March.

It does obviously have issues!

The main issue it's missing again on one cylinder-The previous owner suspected a rusty petrol tank-he had it sealed inside and put a new filter and pump on. It ran well for a while then the misfire reappeared.
I've driven it a couple of miles today and am suspecting an injector-theres no smell of unburnt petrol and I'm assuming the injection system is too basic to shut down an individual injector.
I'll find out what cylinder it is in the week and test the feed to the injector-if I find a problem I'll borrow one off my Royale!

Will keep you posted!

Steve

Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: grifter on 14 January 2017, 14:33:22
Hi Steve

Nice motor can't beat the big plush velour seats and the nice smooth straight six. I think I mentioned to you in ABS forum about the misfire, just to check the injector securing bolts were tight as I had a similar problem on my old senator causing air leak, buggar of a thing to find but found that one bank of the 10mm bolts were loose/worn. I don't now if someone had them off before and wore out the threads as it wouldn't tighten. Strangely enough it must have been sort of tight as I hadn't touched anything in there to disturb and there wasn't any misfire before, might of been loctited up and wore down over time and loosened off.

Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: TheBoy on 14 January 2017, 14:51:59
Looks tidy :)

The injection system is pretty basic by modern standards, so old skool diags :y
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: BazaJT on 14 January 2017, 14:57:10
Lovely cars,I'd have a Senator tomoorow if I could find one I could afford to buy :y
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: neil74 on 15 January 2017, 00:17:23
Of the two I had I still wish I hadn't sold the white 2.5 manual to my sisters other half. as he had borrowed my previous black 3.0 auto and managed to stuff the back door in and tear the back of the front passenger seat.. 
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Fraggles Rock on 15 January 2017, 11:10:53
Love the green velour :D

Looks well kept too 8)
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Steve Brookman on 15 January 2017, 13:39:31
Thanks all,
Came with four good doors (two on the car are rusty) and a spare front wing. All for £600.

Had a fiddle today - the misfire is cylinder 3-plug is dry. Checked voltage at injector got a reading (will check when I bring an oscilloscope home) so suspecting an injector.

The car has had running issues in the past-all to do with rust in the tank-so I'm suspecting a blocked injector?

Anyone got any? (don't want to borrow one off the Royale yet!)

Regards

Steve
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 15 January 2017, 14:37:52
Presumably it has a fuel filter :-\
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Steve Brookman on 15 January 2017, 14:56:13
Yep-previous owner replaced the filter and pump and had the tank re-sealed. Will get a few injectors (hopefully) and give it a go.

Steve
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: cam.in.head on 15 January 2017, 15:07:55
sounds like a seized  or blocked injector I would agree especially if the cars been sitting a while. as far as I know the injectors all fire together rather than sequential so a good spin over with the main coil lead earthed should allow fuel into all the cylinders .showing up the faulty one.have to agree on an earlier reply regarding the interior.fantastic seats/ colour.
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 15 January 2017, 15:28:40
Point being that the filter should stop any crud getting to the injectors :-\

Duff injector or loom most likely...
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: minifreek on 15 January 2017, 16:52:25
I would also go with a duff injector or wiring loom too, don't think it will have anything to do with the petrol tank...

Easiest thing to do - I reckon - is swap another injector out from the engine and see if the fault follows, if it does then its an injector fault, if it stays on Cylinder 3 it'll be wiring at fault.

Last place I would look would be the petrol tank....
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: neil74 on 15 January 2017, 17:50:54
I remember having to repair wiring in my 3.0 one as the windows wouldn't work.
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Steve Brookman on 15 January 2017, 19:51:13
Thanks,
Will swap an injector over and see if the misfire moves with it. Will then send the injector off for a clean.

Thanks

Steve
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: EMD on 16 January 2017, 09:56:44
Thanks all,
Came with four good doors (two on the car are rusty) and a spare front wing. All for £600.

Had a fiddle today - the misfire is cylinder 3-plug is dry. Checked voltage at injector got a reading (will check when I bring an oscilloscope home) so suspecting an injector.

The car has had running issues in the past-all to do with rust in the tank-so I'm suspecting a blocked injector?

Anyone got any? (don't want to borrow one off the Royale yet!)

Regards

Steve

That was a good deal  :y Did they do a manual version ?
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: BazaJT on 16 January 2017, 19:01:33
Yes EMD,they did a manual version certainly in 2.5 form,not sure on the 3L.
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Steve Brookman on 23 January 2017, 17:37:09
Had another play about today. Injectors from Keith arrived (fantastic service as usual!). Didn't try swapping tonight as not enough time or patience after work. Ran the car for a while and took plug 3 out again-dry again but there was petrol vapour coming out of the plug hole-spark seems ok-but am getting a spark plug checker (also put a plug in from my Royale-but still missing).
So possibly a partially blocked injector leaving a little petrol through?

All advice greatly appreciated-will bash on on the weekend!

Steve
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Migv6 le Frog Fan on 23 January 2017, 17:49:05
Police used manual 3.0 Senators. Cant remember if they were available in retail spec.  :-\
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: grifter on 23 January 2017, 21:02:47
Had another play about today. Injectors from Keith arrived (fantastic service as usual!). Didn't try swapping tonight as not enough time or patience after work. Ran the car for a while and took plug 3 out again-dry again but there was petrol vapour coming out of the plug hole-spark seems ok-but am getting a spark plug checker (also put a plug in from my Royale-but still missing).
So possibly a partially blocked injector leaving a little petrol through?

All advice greatly appreciated-will bash on on the weekend!

Steve

You can check spark by earthing the respective lead using a screwdriver to any metal point in the engine bay. Obviously ignition off first, put screwdriver into the plug lead end, rest screwdriver handle against body shell or engine and something metal below shaft leaving about a 1/4" gap between metal shaft and body/engine, then churn it a couple of times and watch for the big blue spark jump to ground.

Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Mr Gav on 23 January 2017, 22:32:51
Police used manual 3.0 Senators. Cant remember if they were available in retail spec.  :-\

Manual was available as an option IIRC
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 24 January 2017, 11:35:16
Had another play about today. Injectors from Keith arrived (fantastic service as usual!). Didn't try swapping tonight as not enough time or patience after work. Ran the car for a while and took plug 3 out again-dry again but there was petrol vapour coming out of the plug hole-spark seems ok-but am getting a spark plug checker (also put a plug in from my Royale-but still missing).
So possibly a partially blocked injector leaving a little petrol through?

All advice greatly appreciated-will bash on on the weekend!

Steve

There not sequential injection and block fire the injectors so, you will see a small amount of fuel pulled in from the other pots.

Note, if testing the ignition system you should be able to pull a 30mm plus gap on this type of setup.
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Steve Brookman on 24 January 2017, 18:28:52
Many thanks Mark,
Will let you know as soon as I swap an injector.

Regards

Steev
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Steve Brookman on 27 January 2017, 18:23:37
(http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/ah18/stevebrookman/head_zpslbgmqzz7.jpg) (http://s1376.photobucket.com/user/stevebrookman/media/head_zpslbgmqzz7.jpg.html)

Hello all,
Have found why my recently acquired A2 Senator is missing. I did suspect injectors and got a set from Keith swapped the over but still the same. Took off the rocker cover and fired her up.

Rocker number 6 from the front of the engine is not moving-hence the misfire.

I'm thinking camshaft or hydraulic lifter-any advice on how to progress greatly appreciated.
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: BazaJT on 27 January 2017, 19:48:40
A good few years ago one of my older brothers gave me his series 11/2 that he'd taken off the road as it was only running on five.I took the cover off and found that both cam lobes on number two cylinder had worn so badly the valves weren't opening :o I chucked a second hand cam in it and all was fine again 8) Finished up selling the car as it needed a boat load of welding which is something I can't do,still wish I'd got that car though :'(
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Andy H on 27 January 2017, 20:05:42
(http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/ah18/stevebrookman/head_zpslbgmqzz7.jpg) (http://s1376.photobucket.com/user/stevebrookman/media/head_zpslbgmqzz7.jpg.html)

Hello all,
Have found why my recently acquired A2 Senator is missing. I did suspect injectors and got a set from Keith swapped the over but still the same. Took off the rocker cover and fired her up.

Rocker number 6 from the front of the engine is not moving-hence the misfire.

I'm thinking camshaft or hydraulic lifter-any advice on how to progress greatly appreciated.
Having got as far as lifting the rocker cover it would only take a minute to undo the adjuster nut on rocker no6 and extract the hydraulic lifter.

I can't see if that is an inlet or an exhaust rocker - pick another rocker of the same persuasion ( probably no7) and compare the lifters and what you can see of the cam lobes.

Edit: actually I can see that no6 is an inlet (& so is no7)
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Steve Brookman on 27 January 2017, 20:51:16
Thanks-I took the lifter out-looks quite gummed up-I've got it soaking in petrol.

The bottom is also concave.

I've also bought a nearly new one.

Regards

Steev
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: cam.in.head on 28 January 2017, 12:16:35
it's quite unusual although not unheard of for these engines to wear down the cam lobes through lack of servicing.the very early engines had a softer type cam which was modified in later models.chilled cast iron vs induction hardened.yours could very well be worn especially as you say the face of the lifter is concave.if you spin the engine with coil unplugged you should be able to tell or by putting the lifter back in and with finger pressure holding it down it should lift and fall approx 6mm.as should all the others.if the cam seems ok it is still worn thou because it shouldn't have a concave follower .you can replace this follower and with the valve closed tighten until all the slack is JUST taken up then turn one turn further.after a while the tappet will have self adjusted and the rocker arm should have slight movement.in an ideal world you should strip and clean the original followers and install them back in their original positions only.they are dismantleable .to replace the camshaft itself is a head off job .because it needs to come past the head bolts.
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Steve Brookman on 28 January 2017, 12:51:02
Thanks cam in head!

I had a look-got the tappet piston freed off-but still not working.
 Tried to have a look at the cam and cannot feel any lobe on the cam-so now suspecting a cam shaft.

Question-how hard to change and if I can get a second hand one-will I have to replace all the tappets?

Regards
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Steve Brookman on 28 January 2017, 13:15:22
Tappet base
(http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/ah18/stevebrookman/tapp_zpsifgbkvq4.jpg) (http://s1376.photobucket.com/user/stevebrookman/media/tapp_zpsifgbkvq4.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: cam.in.head on 28 January 2017, 15:31:08
if you put the follower back in its hole does it lift when you spin the engine ? .if so it should go up and down approx 6mm when unworn.if any less it may work short term or none at all then the cam is u/s I'm afraid. there is no way it will come out even if you split the timing chain because it won't pass the cylinder head bolts on its way out.you can't undo them even separately because the head gasket will have hardened in place and would not take kindly to being uncompressed and then tightened again.so it's a head off job I'm sorry to say. not the hardest of jobs but the only way to change the cam. if it's a second hand cam it will need new followers throughout although again some don't recommend fitting new followers to a used cam. I've done it and they do work perfect but can sometimes be a little tappet and can wear quicker than using all new stuff. if you need any info or advice feel free to pm me .cheers
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Steve Brookman on 29 January 2017, 09:26:22
Thanks again CIH!

Am sourcing the parts and will let you know when I start!

The last head I took off was about 30 years ago - it was an 1800 Sherpa.

Many thanks again!

Steve
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Steve Brookman on 29 January 2017, 10:59:56
Put the old follower back in and no movement. The groove at the bottom of the follower where it is supposed to be flat dips in a few good mm. Could have been machined shopped looking at it! The cam has done a good job wearing it.

(http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/ah18/stevebrookman/tapp_zpsifgbkvq4.jpg) (http://s1376.photobucket.com/user/stevebrookman/media/tapp_zpsifgbkvq4.jpg.html)

supposed to look like

(http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/ah18/stevebrookman/tap_zpsliaaqfmg.jpg) (http://s1376.photobucket.com/user/stevebrookman/media/tap_zpsliaaqfmg.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: grifter on 29 January 2017, 17:34:03
I just recently stripped head off my Senator B so if you need any tips in advance let me know. I will say that I found stripping the manifolds off nigh on impossible and opted instead to drop the downpipe and lift the head off with them attached. Even with the manifolds off the head weighs an absolute ton so might be best if you can get an engine crane or a pulley to lift. It needs to come straight up about at least 8 inches or more over the cam sprocket as that sits in place on a little tray thing under it. I didn't have any lifter so I had to progressively lever the head up and put blocks under it, then pole vault it on to the battery tray with a big bit of wood under it then bear hug it out of the bay!

Also even though my engine was quite smooth running I did find about half of the tappets were completely gummed up so soaked in petrol for a bit and freed them off.
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Steve Brookman on 29 January 2017, 20:11:33
Thanks Grifter,
I was thinking of leaving the inlet and exhaust manifolds on and getting a hoist or lifting gear to get it up.
I was also thinking of using zip ties to connect the cam sprocket to the chain so that the timing doesn't alter.

I'm getting a Cam and tappets his week so will start to strip it down.

I'll definitely be asking for advice!

Regards

Steeve



Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: cam.in.head on 30 January 2017, 12:41:42
Looking at the picture that does look like an early style follower so it follows suit that it would be an earlier style cam.later followers are like the new one pictured with a line around the body near the bottom.early ones again are softer and should only be fitted to earlier cams.have a read of the haynes book.preferably one for a 4 cylinder as found in mk1 cav,ascona,manta or early carlton. This explains quite good the differences.i have seen quite a few esrly ones worn but never the later type.contributed to by lack of oil changes ? ?.later heads had a different style of front cam bearing journal too and had NO oil groove in it.therefor a leter cam can only be fitted to a later head or else oil starvation to the other cam bearings,followers and rocker studs will happen.my opinion now before you get any bits is i eould source a later head from 85 onwards marked on the side with a 'p'. And rebiuild and fit this(grind in valves,new stem seals). It will be better also because it will then  be Fully unleaded compatible.which pre 85 heads are not in the long term.
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: cam.in.head on 30 January 2017, 12:47:42
Ive just checked.the best book to describe the differences is the haynes carlton 78-86 purple book. It covers the 4 cyl obviuosly but i beleive these same mods were applied to the 6 cyl as well.see page215
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 30 January 2017, 12:54:28
Last time I did one of these (which was a fair while ago), to set the followers you did it with the engine running.

This required fabricating a cover for the chain, you then slackened the tappet nut until it just went noisy before tightening again a quarter turn at a time.....waiting a bit then repeat until a full turn had been achieved.

You have to have the followers reasonably loaded and not at one end of their operation hence the basic nip them up approach does not work and can cause them to wear prematurely.

You will also find the head coked up to buggery so a complete strip, clean and re-lap of the valves is very worthwhile.
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Steve Brookman on 30 January 2017, 17:49:17
Many thanks again,

Will keep posted!

Parts should be here by the end of the week.

Steve
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Steve Brookman on 31 January 2017, 07:07:50
Just a quickie!

Are new head bolts required?

Regards

Steve
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: grifter on 02 February 2017, 07:06:34
Just a quickie!

Are new head bolts required?

Regards

Steve

Personally I would as you don't want an old one snapping.
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: grifter on 02 February 2017, 07:09:33
Thanks Grifter,
I was thinking of leaving the inlet and exhaust manifolds on and getting a hoist or lifting gear to get it up.
I was also thinking of using zip ties to connect the cam sprocket to the chain so that the timing doesn't alter.

I'm getting a Cam and tappets his week so will start to strip it down.

I'll definitely be asking for advice!

Regards

Steeve

To be honest Steve it doesn't go anywhere. Once you loosen the cam sprocket bolt there isn't the tension like you would get on a belt. It just sits on the little support plate underneath it. The timing mark is in behind the bellhousing on driver side, quite hard to see. It's like an arrow pointer that lines up. If you want pics let me know and I can take a few with things out of the way.
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Steve Brookman on 11 February 2017, 16:37:39
Hello all,
Have now got all the parts and will start to strip it down tomorrow.

Reading the Haynes manual for a later Senator it says to time it with No 1 at TDC but have read elsewhere with no6 at TDC (the same era Carlton says no4 TDC)-any ideas?

Do I need to undo the chain tensioner?

And lastly-will the cam only fit the sprocket in one position (I was wondering if it was keyed or anything).

Any advice greatly appreciated!!!!!

Steve
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: cam.in.head on 11 February 2017, 17:12:23
Cam sprocket will only fit in one position.has a dowel for location.cam timing is therefore not adjustable providing it is not a tooth out to start with.with the engine at tdc the sprocket bolts will be relatively straight across and level.the more the chain is worn the less so.you need to turn the engine to bring the grooves on the side of the cam in line to allow for removal of cylinder head bolts. I would leave the tensioner in and once you pull the chain sprocket off it will sit tightly and nicely supported on the metal bracket underneath it.SO LONG AS NOBODY HAS REMOVED IT !. Afterwards you time it up with engine running via cyl 1.i believe with unleaded you are looking at approx 5 deg retarded from original marks but experimenting is req. did you get an unleaded head or are you sticking with the original ?
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: 2boxerdogs on 11 February 2017, 17:31:14
Always liked them, good buy looks nice .
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Steve Brookman on 11 February 2017, 17:52:09
Thanks again CIH!

Using the original head-will leave in tensioner.

With regards getting access to the headbolts-I can turn the cam once I have removed the sprocket - is that correct?

Will strap the chain to the sprocket with a few zip ties so nothing can move.

Thanks again

Steve
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: cam.in.head on 11 February 2017, 22:55:59
Yes turning the cam is no problem once sprocket is off and all followers are out. Note the cam will also move backwards if you let it as its the sprocket and plastic centre screw that keeps it in line. Are you going to have the head converted to unleaded or just use an additive or just use it 'as is'.The valve seats are cut straight into the head material without an insert on the early ones hence the later unleaded inserts.if you grind the valves in you lose whet they call 'lead memory,a fine lead coating from previous leaded petrol'.the head material is of good quality and should run for a while bare but many beleive valve seat erosion eventually happens.
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Steve Brookman on 12 February 2017, 09:02:41
I think I'll use it "as is"-and add a bit of additive now and again.

Many thanks yet again

Steve
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: cam.in.head on 12 February 2017, 11:21:20
No problem anything you need to know feel free to ask.Still learning the omegas ways and means but the old cav/ carlton cam in head engines ive done a plenty. I have my way and order of doin things as im sure everyone has.nothing too peculiar about these engines.i find them easy enough to work on.non interference between pistons and valves.everything easy enough to get to .when you eventually lift the head have someone help you,lift it vertically to clear the cam sprocket and watch you dont loose the small o ring near the front of head down the gap by the timing chain.it usually stays stuck to the head! . Cheers.chris
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Steve Brookman on 17 February 2017, 20:05:33
Hello all,
Had a bit of time tonight so started to strip down the engine. Took all the rockers off and tappets out. There were another three tappets starting to wear. Will disconnect the exhaust and detach all the injector wiring next.
Have to fit it in with putting a roof on the carport.

Steve
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Steve Brookman on 22 February 2017, 16:50:20
Had a few hours today on the car. Everything apart from the throttle cable and servo hose disconnected. Head bolts nearest the screen bstards to get at due to the air con pipes-think I'll bin them.

Fun will now start when I try to loosen the head and actually move it to the bench.

(http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/ah18/stevebrookman/head_zps7uqmuf3s.jpg) (http://s1376.photobucket.com/user/stevebrookman/media/head_zps7uqmuf3s.jpg.html)

Steve
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 23 February 2017, 16:03:53
Never found the cam-in-head heads ever gave much of a fight to removal, can remember lifting the front end of an Avenger up via the cylinder head once trying to split one of those. 
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Steve Brookman on 23 February 2017, 16:28:27
Thanks Mark-it did release easily after I remembered to take out the two bolts at the front which go through to the timing cover!

Nearly killed me lifting it out though and putting it onto the bench!

(http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/ah18/stevebrookman/cylhead1_zpsxch3uyyz.jpg) (http://s1376.photobucket.com/user/stevebrookman/media/cylhead1_zpsxch3uyyz.jpg.html)

You can see it on the bench behind. Will have to get a few mates to help me position it back in.

Just figuring out now how the camshaft comes out-I think it just pulls forwards-will have to ask cam-in-head (Chris) on here.

Most serious mechanicing I've done in a while!

Cheers

Steve

Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: BazaJT on 23 February 2017, 18:11:51
Seem to remember they come out the back...............or was that on summat else?
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: cam.in.head on 23 February 2017, 19:32:07
So long as all the head bolts are out it slides out of the front. Each cam bearing is slightly bigger than the next one so it will only come out frontways.did you recover the front o ring from head gasket ok ? .yeah they are a heavy head and two people to lower it back on is a good idea.  Once its out see if the front cam journal has the oil groove.if it has make sure the new cam has.if it hasnt it can be machined in. Any more info feel free to ask. Cheers .
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Steve Brookman on 23 February 2017, 20:22:39
Thanks Chris- forgot to look for the o ring-I just placed the head on the bench and left it. Will check tomorrow. Will try levering the cam out as well.
Many thanks yet again

Steve
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: cam.in.head on 23 February 2017, 20:47:00
It wont need levering. Should just slide gently out .do it slowly and carefully to avoid scratching the bearings in the head with whats left of the cam lobes.
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Steve Brookman on 23 February 2017, 20:54:28
Thanks Chris,
Can I take the back plate off and push it out?

Steve
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: cam.in.head on 23 February 2017, 20:58:56
Yes if you need to but you shoud just be able to reach into the head an touch the back of it without.. following all this with interest mate. Keep up the good work .chris
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Steve Brookman on 23 February 2017, 21:47:14
Thanks Chris!

Steve
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: cam.in.head on 23 February 2017, 21:48:57
There is also a remoeable plate on the side of the head just above the spark plugs.a new gasket for this will be in your head set so might as well remove it.it makes it even easier to get your fingers in to guide the cam out. Just read your pm .those big things in the head you are referring to are not meant to be removed .i think they are just oil gallery plugs
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Steve Brookman on 23 February 2017, 22:11:03
Cheers!

Am having fun-usually only get involved with brakes,suspension, minor engine fiddling and electrics. Haven't had a head off for over 30 years and that was an 1800 Sherpa.
Will rope in a few friends when it is ready to put back in.

Steve
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Steve Brookman on 24 February 2017, 09:52:32
Cam now out,
One of the lobes is nearly circular-no progile at all.

(http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/ah18/stevebrookman/cam2_zpsydy5wp3q.jpg) (http://s1376.photobucket.com/user/stevebrookman/media/cam2_zpsydy5wp3q.jpg.html)

(http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/ah18/stevebrookman/cam3_zpsp6i4sjj0.jpg) (http://s1376.photobucket.com/user/stevebrookman/media/cam3_zpsp6i4sjj0.jpg.html)

Steve
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 24 February 2017, 10:13:05
Lol, yes, that's not so great.....
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: cam.in.head on 01 March 2017, 17:49:12
Hows it going? Got it all back together yet ? Although its bloody cold at the moment ,not realy playing out weather. ,!
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Steve Brookman on 02 March 2017, 20:28:25
Not in yet-only getting the head gasket this week (off Autobahnstormers). Hopefully will put the head on next weekend-will rope in 4 friends and rig up a few ropes and poles - 4 to lift and one to guide! Then its just remembering where everything went! (I did take lots of photos). Could have done it in a day and a bit-it took about 4 hours to get out but have been building a car port as shown below.

(http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/ah18/stevebrookman/car%20port_zpsyr36r4sq.jpg) (http://s1376.photobucket.com/user/stevebrookman/media/car%20port_zpsyr36r4sq.jpg.html)

(http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/ah18/stevebrookman/IMAG0545_zps5jftpigf.jpg) (http://s1376.photobucket.com/user/stevebrookman/media/IMAG0545_zps5jftpigf.jpg.html)

Got to keep my Royale dry!

Will update with progress!

Steve
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: cam.in.head on 02 March 2017, 22:13:27
Nice. Dont forget mate. Anything you need to ask feel free to do so. Be a shame to get it all back together and then realise something should be different. Sorry to ask .feel like im pestering you as well! Did the old cam have a groove ?
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Steve Brookman on 03 March 2017, 07:24:03
Thanks Chris!
Any issues or problems I will be contacting you! Your help has been fantastic and without it I would have missed a few things. I owe you a few beer tokens!

The cam has no groove in it-I believe the additional groove was for pre 1981 cars.

Just a couple of questions!

1-Is the O ring the water feed to the head-it protrudes from the head at the front? (there are also two locating dowels on the block)
2-I've blown out the oil feeds to make sure no blockages-put an airline into the little hole in the tappet enclosure and the air and gunk comes out of the rocker posts. Are there any other oilways to clean?


Many, many thanks again Chris.

Steve
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: cam.in.head on 03 March 2017, 10:47:43
Hi. If your original cam has no  no oil groove in its first journal and theres no evidence to suggest that anyone has ever put the wrong one in then thats one issue out of the way.no groove when there should be would result in NO oil feed to any of the head!.so thats ok then.   If you have blown out all the oilways and you can get air coming from all the rocker studs that should be ok too. Yes the pound coin sized rubber o ring is water feed.once all is cleaned up and you are ready to fit head back on make sure the rear 3 bolt cover is leak free.its a bugger to get to afterwards.when you are  ready to put gasket on i usually put a VERY thin smear of silicone gasket sealer down the left and right sides of block and head and the join between engine and timing case.reason.over time with contant heating and cooling,unknown antifreeze history etc etc water can have a tendancy to very slighly seep out of the sides .because of some slight deteriation to the surfaces.whilst not causing any onvious leaks or problems it just looks a bit unsightly .the sealer stops this happening. That what i do anyway. Gasket located on pegs,o ring in,cam in ! Lower head onto pegs.fit head bolts and tighten in sequence all hand tight first then as required. Early bolts with the splined heads are not stretch bolts and can be reused .i beleive the later bolts with allen heads were and need angle tghtening.all my cars use splined bolts and have never had any issues with re using them.they just need retorquing after 500 mile.
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: cam.in.head on 03 March 2017, 11:13:02
Also worth pointing out. Ref the two types of cam hardness. See page 215 of the carlton book. Your cam looks like the softer one by the picture of the follower. If your new one is also the softer one thats fine but keep regular oil changes. Gm improved on this because they wore quickly hence the harder type.if you have the harder type as your replacement.with lug on then you MUST use harder follower too. Like your replacement picture. With the groove near the bottom. Again all shown/ explained in more detail on page 215
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Steve Brookman on 05 March 2017, 09:49:59
Thanks Chris,
Cleaned the head up yesterday-didn't look too bad-this is it before

(http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/ah18/stevebrookman/IMAG0547_zpsvrkhmgoj.jpg) (http://s1376.photobucket.com/user/stevebrookman/media/IMAG0547_zpsvrkhmgoj.jpg.html)

I used oven cleaner and it came up a treat!

Have arranged for friends to come next Sunday morning to lift it back on and should then quickly have it running (fingers crossed).

Replacing hard to get at hoses and tidying up the wiring in the week as access is now quite good.

It's then on to getting my Royale mot'd.

Thanks again

Steve
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Shackeng on 05 March 2017, 17:15:35
 :'( :'( :'( No after pic. :'(
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Steve Brookman on 05 March 2017, 18:33:34
I'll get one tomorrow  :)

Phone ran out of charge.

Steve
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Steve Brookman on 06 March 2017, 18:25:30
As promised-valves want a bit of wire wool.

(http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/ah18/stevebrookman/head%20bgt_zps1bkvf9mn.jpg) (http://s1376.photobucket.com/user/stevebrookman/media/head%20bgt_zps1bkvf9mn.jpg.html)

Also started to tidy up the injector wiring as the previous owner had taken the loom apart.

(http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/ah18/stevebrookman/wire_zpsqbxlj7su.jpg) (http://s1376.photobucket.com/user/stevebrookman/media/wire_zpsqbxlj7su.jpg.html)

Steve
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: cam.in.head on 06 March 2017, 21:02:20
Looking good steve. Second to last picture you can see why i reccomend sealer down the edges. The water jacket is close to the edge !
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 07 March 2017, 15:56:44
Are you not popping the valves out, cleaning them up and giving them a light lap in?


(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b394/Marks_DTM_Calib/Mick_Dundee/IMG_0260.jpg)
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Steve Brookman on 12 March 2017, 15:43:37
Ran out of mojo Mark!

Head back on-took 5 of us to get it in. Then  the splined socket came off dropping into the head-thought I'd have to take the head off again! Finally got it out after an hour.
What a pain torqueing up the head bolts-the two nearest the bulkhead are very inaccessible - its a three stage process torque, then tighten by 90 degress wait ten mins and a further 40 degrees.

Took ages-but on.

Steve
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Shackeng on 12 March 2017, 17:13:14
Steve, I am somewhat surprised, given the work involved in removing and refitting the head, that you haven't lapped the valves in. Your choice of course. :y
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: grifter on 12 March 2017, 18:19:48
Ran out of mojo Mark!

Head back on-took 5 of us to get it in. Then  the splined socket came off dropping into the head-thought I'd have to take the head off again! Finally got it out after an hour.
What a pain torqueing up the head bolts-the two nearest the bulkhead are very inaccessible - its a three stage process torque, then tighten by 90 degress wait ten mins and a further 40 degrees.

Took ages-but on.

Steve

That bit is a bar steward! On mine the long socket I was using to loosen them. with strong bar attached, just fitted under the bulkhead aperture, but when I started to loosen it was tightening up against said aperture. What a lousy design that is!
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Steve Brookman on 25 March 2017, 18:52:37
Evening all,
Had a good go today with my "wonderful" Senator. Even managed to start it.

Started to adjust the rockers with the engine running and the oil started to turn a lovely shade lightish brown  :'(

Looks like I either pinched the head gasket putting it on or the "O" ring that sits on the head moved.

I'll leave it a few months (to get my interest back!)and get my Royale going. I'll try and get it under the car port as more room as well.

Onwards and downwards

Steve

Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Andy H on 25 March 2017, 19:03:56
Evening all,
Had a good go today with my "wonderful" Senator. Even managed to start it.

Started to adjust the rockers with the engine running and the oil started to turn a lovely shade lightish brown  :'(

Looks like I either pinched the head gasket putting it on or the "O" ring that sits on the head moved.

I'll leave it a few months (to get my interest back!)and get my Royale going. I'll try and get it under the car port as more room as well.

Onwards and downwards

Steve
What is that an indication of?
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Steve Brookman on 25 March 2017, 19:07:45
Water in the oil unfortunately-so head off again.

Steve
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: cam.in.head on 25 March 2017, 19:50:48
Oh bigger that's a shame. Yes it sounds like the rubber ring near the front has come out. Not ever had this before and if it was ok before it sounds the most likely culprit. One silly point to ask .please don't think I'm telling you what to do but the breather pipe to the side of the throttle and the water pipe near it haven't been mixed up have they?
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Steve Brookman on 25 March 2017, 19:57:33
Thanks Chris-I'll have a look.

Regards

Steve
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Steve Brookman on 25 March 2017, 20:18:39
Had a look-seem ok-I think it's the "o" ring-we did have difficulty getting the head to line up-so it could easily have been moved-I'll move the car to my car port (it has much more room) and take the bonnet off. The engine is very smooth - now running on 6 not 5!
Here's a photo


(http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/ah18/stevebrookman/hgf_zpshenuyqwx.jpg) (http://s1376.photobucket.com/user/stevebrookman/media/hgf_zpshenuyqwx.jpg.html)

The only other thing I can think of are the two rear head bolts which were a right pain to get at-under the bulkhead-couldn't get my torque wrench under properly.

Regards

Steev
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Steve Brookman on 26 March 2017, 10:49:11
Round 2!
Now with a bit more room.

(http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/ah18/stevebrookman/round%202_zpsq6xcssen.jpg) (http://s1376.photobucket.com/user/stevebrookman/media/round%202_zpsq6xcssen.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: cam.in.head on 26 March 2017, 18:39:57
Hell thats a shame. Even if the o ring wasnt there you would think the gasket around it would not let the water seep out that much. Take head off again and see if its that. Also make 100'/, sure the gasket was correct. Compare with old one. Make sure its correct in every detail.around the waterways etc.also thats its definately for a 3 litre. 95 mm bores .Dont recall any differences between early and later engines .water travels up to the head and circulates via that front o ring and all the pockets around each cylinder so a broken or missing or wrong gasket would change all that. Pity im not nearer to you or we could have nailed this.! .all the best .
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: STEMO on 26 March 2017, 19:41:38
Hell thats a shame. Even if the o ring wasnt there you would think the gasket around it would not let the water seep out that much. Take head off again and see if its that. Also make 100'/, sure the gasket was correct. Compare with old one. Make sure its correct in every detail.around the waterways etc.also thats its definately for a 3 litre. 95 mm bores .Dont recall any differences between early and later engines .water travels up to the head and circulates via that front o ring and all the pockets around each cylinder so a broken or missing or wrong gasket would change all that. Pity im not nearer to you or we could have nailed this.! .all the best .
Wales isn't that far. You could be there in 4 hours or so.  ;D
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Steve Brookman on 26 March 2017, 19:51:20
Thanks Chris-will have a good look when I take it off -will rig up a chain lift next time so I can gently lower the head into position. I think we were too rough initially-had a big problem lining up the lugs-with the constant toing and froing I think the front O ring may have been displaced.. There are also some big pipes going across the rear of the engine over an inch in diameter-they are to do with the air con so will remove these as well. The only other concern I have is with the rear 2 head bolts-may have to modify a socket or two to try and get the torque wrench on properly.

On a positive-when I drove it this morning it was extremely smooth (if a little tappet-I only adjusted 3 or 4) and quite powerful.

Thanks again

Steve
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: cam.in.head on 27 March 2017, 09:55:24
Only problem now is you will need a few oil changes to get all that crap out and its very hard these days to find cheap oil just to throw in for flushing.you will probably find some unbranded unknown stuff for maybee a tenner per 5 litres at a local motor shop.or maybee do an oil change on your other cars now and use that oil as a flush .main thing is .lets hope you find the o ring missing .at least then we know whats happened.
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Steve Brookman on 27 March 2017, 10:44:09
Thanks Chris-it's £12 a gallon from Wilkinsons-I'll see if they do it in bulk online. I'm sure it must be the o ring-as I said we had a lot of hassle getting it on the lugs-constant moving, lifting etc-I was a bit concerned at the time. I'll get a chain block and gently lower it this time. Will also check the gasket to see if any anomalies. But as I said-what a smooth engine!
I've still only spent about £850 including the purchase price for -apart from the doors (4 spares came with it)-a very solid car.

Regards

Steve
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 27 March 2017, 11:08:56
That particular O-ring missing wont cause that, you would get oil in the water potentially but not water in the oil (the oil feed is much higher pressure than the coolant jacket).

So it must be elsewhere (probably a coolant passage to oil return passage)
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Steve Brookman on 27 March 2017, 11:12:49
Thanks Mark-may have torn the gasket.

Steve
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Steve Brookman on 27 March 2017, 19:08:06
Thought I'd have a "quick" look at the Senator after I got home. Two hours later I ended up with this.

(http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/ah18/stevebrookman/h3_zps5b0fiwwb.jpg) (http://s1376.photobucket.com/user/stevebrookman/media/h3_zps5b0fiwwb.jpg.html)

I'm getting good at this-must be the practise.

One problem I saw was a hole blocked with sealant (wont be using it again!)

(http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/ah18/stevebrookman/h1_zpshxoeb0a3.jpg) (http://s1376.photobucket.com/user/stevebrookman/media/h1_zpshxoeb0a3.jpg.html)

No other obvious faults-"O" ring was in place

(http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/ah18/stevebrookman/h2_zpsffu55dvf.jpg) (http://s1376.photobucket.com/user/stevebrookman/media/h2_zpsffu55dvf.jpg.html)

I'm thinking too much paste and the fact I couldn't do the head bolts up for at least an hour as I dropped the splined socket into the head.

another pic

(http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/ah18/stevebrookman/h4_zps7yowltvk.jpg) (http://s1376.photobucket.com/user/stevebrookman/media/h4_zps7yowltvk.jpg.html)

steve
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 27 March 2017, 19:18:07
By way of a suggestion...

No sealant next time unless guides specifically call for it. When refitting cut four lengths of studding and use them as locating dowls to aid and maintain alignment until you have loosely inserted the remaining head bolts... then remove the studding, fit the remaining bolts and tighten them all appropriately  :y

Might need new bolts to go with new gasket.


Oh, and don't drop the socket ;)
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Steve Brookman on 27 March 2017, 19:50:18
Thanks Dr!
Definitely no sealant next time. Funnily enough a neighbour also suggested using studding-an excellent idea!

Regards

Steve
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: cam.in.head on 28 March 2017, 09:35:57
Yes no sealent required everywhere.way too much. I usually put a VERY thin bit down the sides only to stop any seepage .however its a bit worrying that you havnt realy found anything wrong there or the o ring missing. Even in your case.too much sealant and a possible blocked hole it makes me wonder how the water is getting into the oil ?.any signs of anything whatsoever on the gasket ?
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Steve Brookman on 28 March 2017, 11:01:26
Nothing obvious at the moment Chris-I'm hoping that there was too much sealant-I then dropped the splined socket and it took an hour to get it back-so the sealant wasn't compressed initially as it should have been. Might also have nocked the gasket-will take it off after and have a good look-cannot think of anything else it could be .

Regards

Steev
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: cam.in.head on 28 March 2017, 13:33:18
You dont need any sealant on the gasket .that looks like the red hermetite stuff you have used which does tend to harden up.still wouldnt have thought it would go so hard that it would hold the gasket off and create any sort of leak like you have. I have done hundreds of these engines and never seen this happen. I have had many an instance of slight seepage out of the side of the head gasket curable by a head skim,block skim or a VERY thin smear of silicone down the sides as i suggested to you. Thats just what i do .in a perfect world it wouldnt need it.Please make sure gasket is correct and sits correctly around all the waterways .i am hoping you find evidence of something on old gasket to put our minds at ease.there are no obvious cracks anywhere or any low spots on block or head?no over enthusiastic sanding down evidence or deep scratches?.water can only get into the oil if it gets from a waterway across to the head oil feed or by entering the drain back to the sump at the back.
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 28 March 2017, 13:35:17
You dont need any sealant on the gasket .that looks like the red hermetite stuff you have used which does tend to harden up.still wouldnt have thought it would go so hard that it would hold the gasket off and create any sort of leak like you have. I have done hundreds of these engines and never seen this happen. I have had many an instance of slight seepage out of the side of the head gasket curable by a head skim,block skim or a VERY thin smear of silicone down the sides as i suggested to you. Thats just what i do .in a perfect world it wouldnt need it.Please make sure gasket is correct and sits correctly around all the waterways .i am hoping you find evidence of something on old gasket to put our minds at ease.there are no obvious cracks anywhere or any low spots on block or head?no over enthusiastic sanding down evidence or deep scratches?.water can only get into the oil if it gets from a waterway across to the head oil feed or by entering the drain back to the sump at the back.

Not when running it can't  :y
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Andy H on 28 March 2017, 15:32:15
Was all the coolant drained before the head came off? Could a cup full of coolant have found its way into the sump when the head was lifted?
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Steve Brookman on 28 March 2017, 18:38:40
Thanks Andy-I thought of that as I didn't fully drain the system-but I did change the oil after I put the head back on.

Thanks

Steve
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: cam.in.head on 03 April 2017, 20:53:06
anything suspect found ?
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: grifter on 03 April 2017, 21:41:33
Thanks Chris-will have a good look when I take it off -will rig up a chain lift next time so I can gently lower the head into position. I think we were too rough initially-had a big problem lining up the lugs-with the constant toing and froing I think the front O ring may have been displaced.. There are also some big pipes going across the rear of the engine over an inch in diameter-they are to do with the air con so will remove these as well. The only other concern I have is with the rear 2 head bolts-may have to modify a socket or two to try and get the torque wrench on properly.

On a positive-when I drove it this morning it was extremely smooth (if a little tappet-I only adjusted 3 or 4) and quite powerful.

Thanks again

Steve

Took 3 of us to lift mine in, seemed to go in quite easily. I'd fashioned up a sort of cradle fashioned from rope and in it went. It was sitting on the dowels slightly, gave it a wee push back and clunk in i went. I am by however going to make sure this O ring thing is right before I tighten down. I can lift head up at front and give it another look now that head has been sitting on it. I did wonder if it was doing anything though as I poked a screwdriver into head and block where that O ring is and just a dead end??
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Steve Brookman on 04 April 2017, 16:47:17
anything suspect found ?

Nothing really-apart from lashings of sealant-hoping it is this and possibly not getting the torques settings spot on as I used the later angle method. Awaiting a new HG and will pop it back on. Now have a chain block to lower it back on so should be easier. I've also removed the large redundant air-con pipes from the rear of the engine-this gives better access to the rear two bolts. These two bolts are near the rear oil drain so if not correct torque could have resulted in a leak.

Thanks

Steve
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 05 April 2017, 10:57:43
Angle torque should be better IF the initial torque setting is met correctly.

The method I generally use on large cylinder heads is to set to the initial torque and then go around the head lightly tapping it with a soft mallet to make sure its fully seated before going around setting the bolts to the initial torque setting again.
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: grifter on 07 April 2017, 15:46:26
Sorry to hijack thread a bit but what is the torx size of the head bolts. I do admit to loosing my way with the sizing's of these new fangled fittings! It says 10 on mine but 10 what? I need a smaller length one to get into the back left hand bolt to fully torque up.
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: cam.in.head on 07 April 2017, 16:47:13
on all the early engines they were not torx bolts.they are 12 point spline.size 12 for headbolts and 8 for cam sprocket bolts.6mm allen for front of head.if yours are torx type then 10 will be the size if thats what it says though a t10 torx does look a lot smaller than a no12 spline. best take a bolt to tool shop with you to be sure
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: grifter on 07 April 2017, 17:46:40
on all the early engines they were not torx bolts.they are 12 point spline.size 12 for headbolts and 8 for cam sprocket bolts.6mm allen for front of head.if yours are torx type then 10 will be the size if thats what it says though a t10 torx does look a lot smaller than a no12 spline. best take a bolt to tool shop with you to be sure

T10 looks tiny on ebay, will take bolt to halfords see if I can get a bit.
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 07 April 2017, 17:47:55
on all the early engines they were not torx bolts.they are 12 point spline.size 12 for headbolts and 8 for cam sprocket bolts.6mm allen for front of head.if yours are torx type then 10 will be the size if thats what it says though a t10 torx does look a lot smaller than a no12 spline. best take a bolt to tool shop with you to be sure

T10 looks tiny on ebay, will take bolt to halfords see if I can get a bit.
Well zoom in then :D
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: grifter on 07 April 2017, 22:19:32
on all the early engines they were not torx bolts.they are 12 point spline.size 12 for headbolts and 8 for cam sprocket bolts.6mm allen for front of head.if yours are torx type then 10 will be the size if thats what it says though a t10 torx does look a lot smaller than a no12 spline. best take a bolt to tool shop with you to be sure

T10 looks tiny on ebay, will take bolt to halfords see if I can get a bit.
Well zoom in then :D

Looks proportionally bigger, but still "small"  ;D
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 07 April 2017, 22:23:41
Suspect thast you've misread T40 ;)
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Steve Brookman on 09 April 2017, 16:34:36
As Chris said,
Splined size 12 for the head bolts and 8 for the cam.

Thanks Mark-I'll give it a tap when putting it back on. Very busy for the next week or so , so hope to have it up and running the week after next and then off for an MOT. MOT history looks very good so hopeful nothing major here.

I'm going to use the three stage torque method-It's easy to check if you've missed a bolt-I couldn't check using the angle method and "may" not have tightened them all equally.
 Cleaned up the head and no obvious fault apart from lots of sealant.

Steve
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: grifter on 16 April 2017, 22:41:00
As Chris said,
Splined size 12 for the head bolts and 8 for the cam.

Thanks Mark-I'll give it a tap when putting it back on. Very busy for the next week or so , so hope to have it up and running the week after next and then off for an MOT. MOT history looks very good so hopeful nothing major here.

I'm going to use the three stage torque method-It's easy to check if you've missed a bolt-I couldn't check using the angle method and "may" not have tightened them all equally.
 Cleaned up the head and no obvious fault apart from lots of sealant.

Steve

The 3 stage torque method?
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: cam.in.head on 17 April 2017, 19:08:23
Early cars .hand tight. Then torque to 25.    Then 50.     Then 74lbs. Later models reccommended angle tightening but then later models also have stretch bolts whereas early ones(12splined) can be re-used.
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Steve Brookman on 18 April 2017, 09:40:33
Home from a week away-will put head on tomorrow.

Steve
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Steve Brookman on 19 April 2017, 19:33:46
Latest on the Senator.
 
Back from hols so thoroughly cleaned the surfaces. New head gasket and "O" ring.  Me and my brother used my newly purchased block and tackle to gently lower the head down-all torqued up using the 3 stage process- 25, 50, 74 lb foot-even had my brother checking the order and settings. All put back together-thought I'd fill it with water. Drips started to form along the gasket joint on both sides of the head.
 
"Oh bother!" I thought :'(
 
Had a think and the only thing that came into my mind was a faulty Torque Wrench-It's nearly 30 years old-but my brother paid loads for it.
 
I went to Screwfix and bought a new one-all the bolts needed at least another quarter turn before the wrench clicked. Filled with water again-but so far no drips.
 
Hoping this is the problem and may have caused the last one to go tits up.
 
Steve
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Nick W on 19 April 2017, 19:57:48
If he paid loads for a torque-wrench 30 years ago, it may only need calibrating to get it working properly. Actually, if it's that old it definitely needs calibrating.


I must get my good one done; it was acquired at an advantageous rate so is worth spending a few quid on.
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: henryd on 19 April 2017, 22:48:53
If he paid loads for a torque-wrench 30 years ago, it may only need calibrating to get it working properly. Actually, if it's that old it definitely needs calibrating.


I must get my good one done; it was acquired at an advantageous rate so is worth spending a few quid on.

I've got a snap on one that's 30 years old and still accurate against a new digital version although i do love the way the New one does angle settings
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Steve Brookman on 20 April 2017, 13:52:26
Hello all,
Got it running this morning-dropped the old oil before starting-adjusted the rockers and then let it run for a while to bleed the cooling system. Changed oil and filter again and put on rocker gasket and rocker covers. Ran it for ages, drove in and out of the car port and all seems ok. Have a slight weep from rocker gasket-it popped out a little-but will do this when engine has cooled down.
So may be ok!

Thanks again for your help.

Steve
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: cam.in.head on 20 April 2017, 19:06:43
Yeah the rocker gaskets can be a little fiddly to keep in place.and the fixing hole sizes tend to be a bit tight to go on i usually 'glue' them onto the cam cover and leave it sat flat on the bench to set a little before I fit it. Glad to hear it might be sorted now after all the hassle.unless you had caught the gasket the first time around it sounds like you may have had it under tightened then.cheers. Chris"..
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Steve Brookman on 04 May 2017, 19:25:28
Passed MOT today!!! :)

Advisories on track rod end and slightly corroded rear brake pipe.

Friend who took it had a problem on the way-a petrol pipe split-luckily though the car didn't go up. ;D

Got a lazy starter motor or battery when hot-will investigate earthings on the weekend.

Drives lovely!!

Steve
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: grifter on 04 May 2017, 19:55:17
Passed MOT today!!! :)

Advisories on track rod end and slightly corroded rear brake pipe.

Friend who took it had a problem on the way-a petrol pipe split-luckily though the car didn't go up. ;D

Got a lazy starter motor or battery when hot-will investigate earthings on the weekend.

Drives lovely!!

Steve

How did he get it through with burst fuel pipe? I'm assuming a quick repair was done on it?

I had that hot starting on my old Senator A 3.0. Usually it's just a starter needing rebuilt as when it gets hot it gets "sticky" also check the engine is not actually over heating a bit. Mine was running hot, due to kapoot viscous fan so I locked the fan up with a bracket, and I reckoned rad was prob needing a flush too.

 
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Steve Brookman on 04 May 2017, 20:02:54
Friends the garage boss-so phoned a colleague who brought out a new pipe and clips.

Will look to get the starter rebuilt.

Regards

Steve
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: BazaJT on 05 May 2017, 07:45:26
Good result on the mot :y and yes I'd agree the Senators are a lovely car to drive I'd really love another one,but prices taking them out of my budget :'(
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: cam.in.head on 05 May 2017, 08:56:38
hi steve.worth checking the battery and starter motor and for any connections that may be getting hot but also ..........if the engine spins normally when you disconnect the coil but struggles with it connected then it sounds as thou the ign timing is a little too advanced.the crankshaft v and pointer are to set up the basic timing when using leaded fuel.so you will more than likely need to retard it slightly anyway fot unleaded.to be honest there isnt an actual setting as cars and fuel vary so either check it with a timing light and make sure its either up to the timing mark or back by approx 5mm on pulley or if you dont have a light just undo distributor clamp and turn it clockwise sligtly
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: aaronjb on 05 May 2017, 09:00:15
I must get my good one done; it was acquired at an advantageous rate so is worth spending a few quid on.

You have to be careful they don't go out of calibration when they fall off the back of the truck  :y ;D
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Steve Brookman on 05 May 2017, 11:58:14
Thanks all,
Didn't think about timing Chris! I do remember now that you mentioned it that I changed the oil pump drive shaft on my Granada years ago and had the same problem. I'll give it a try tonight with the king lead off. It does seem to be holding the revs a little when backing off the throttle (around 1500rpm) before dying down-may also be due to the timing being too advanced.

Thanks again for all the help!

Will report back!

Regards

Steve
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: cam.in.head on 05 May 2017, 12:48:03
hi steve yes its all a bit trial and error. vauxhall reccomend up to 5 deg retard when using unleaded but different cars and fuel need setting up by ear.there is no actual definate setting.same realy applies to lots of settings on cars.(timing,toe,tyre pressures etc)the manufacturers setting is a guide and fairly true when the car is brand new but as they age things often need tweaking for the best.
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Steve Brookman on 05 May 2017, 18:08:42
Thanks Chris,
Retarded it a bit clockwise and it seems better (may be due to my bigger Royale battery I put on). Will have a bit more of a fiddle with the timing tomorrow. Goes well-not as quick as the Royale-but much more refined. Exhaust is blowing from the manifold join so will drop them again and put a bit of paste on.

Thanks

STEVE
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Steve Brookman on 13 May 2017, 08:45:27
Have been using the Senator back and forth to work for most of the week. Its about 12 miles each way-half of it on dual carriageways. The car is excellent-very quiet and supremely smooth. It is higher revving as has been said about the 3 speed -but again not intrusive at 70mph. It is a more sluggish box than the 4 speed on my Royale and the Senator is nowhere near as quick as the Royale (maybe because it is much more refined).

Only problem is the exhaust blowing (cannot hear it from inside!) I think from the manifold / front pipe join. I've got a new set of front pipes and will get a garage to fit them-it's a bit tight under my ramps!

Steve
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Steve Brookman on 21 May 2017, 19:44:46
Hello all,
Been using the Senator everyday back and forth to work. Started having a problem the other day with the alternator overcharging-voltmeter went right up. Lasted a few seconds and then went back down. Okay for a few days until coming home on Thursday. Started to do it more frequently. Got it home and when it did it whilst idling-checked the voltage - about 16 volts. So suspect regulator. Wanted to use the car Friday so used man logic and pinched the alternator off the Royale (not mot'd at the mo). Bit of a faff as had to change an earth wire as Royale alternator slightly different-but all well!
 
Will try and get a regulator and swap back again (or knowing me-leave as is and put refurbed one onto the Royale).
 
Steve
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: VXL V6 on 21 May 2017, 20:06:18
I managed to refurbish one off one of my Omega's for around £50 - that was both bearings and the regulator as per Kevin's information in the Alternator repair guide.

I'm sure most alternators are similar.  :y
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Kevin Wood on 22 May 2017, 09:35:13
Yep, I find "Mid Ulster Rotating Electrics" good for regulators. Google them and you'll find their web site. The also sell lots on Ebay.
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Steve Brookman on 22 May 2017, 11:09:50
Thanks all,
I've actually ordered a regulator from Germany-about £15 delivered. Will post on outcome of fitting!

Steve
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: cam.in.head on 22 May 2017, 19:57:39
hi steve.glad its running well. great cars.. is yours a bosch alternator with the external regulator on the back? .if so easy peasy no dismantling req.or is it a delco ? .still easy enough but req dismantle. watch out for flying brush springs !.
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Steve Brookman on 23 May 2017, 17:11:29
Thanks Chris,
It's the Bosch version-two screws and the regulator was off. Car is very nice-have to get the exhaust done though-blowing from the manifold to downpipe connections. Will get a garage to do it as its very tight under my ramps. Have to completely remove the downpipes from the middle silencers to get it attached properly. Very fiddly when doing the head-couldn't get an even coating of paste on the flanges.

It's running very well-smooth and quiet-BUT not a patch performance wise on my Royale. The Royale has a later 3.0 injection engine and 4 speed auto from a a Monza and is quick. The three speed on the Senator seems high geared in first and second-but low geared in top 20mph = 1000rpm in the Royale 25mph = 1000rpm in top. Will have to check timing-but it doesn't seem retarded.

Thanks

Steve
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: BazaJT on 23 May 2017, 19:01:57
yes from what I recall of my Senator A three speed auto days it was somewhere around three and a half thousand revs for an indicated 70mph where the Senator B 4 speed auto was just over 2,000revs for the same speed.
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: grifter on 04 June 2017, 20:42:00
Thanks again CIH!

Using the original head-will leave in tensioner.

With regards getting access to the headbolts-I can turn the cam once I have removed the sprocket - is that correct?

Will strap the chain to the sprocket with a few zip ties so nothing can move.

Thanks again

Steve

Tbh Steve you shouldn't need to tie wrap it if you are just lifting head off. It doesn't move, there is a plate right under it that it sits on.

Getting access to the head bolts, epsecially the back ones. I bought a smaller length tool to get into the small space. Can't remember the sizing now, but my new bolts were allen type, old were splines. So I had to buy a set of spline sockets to get them out and a Allen type to get new ones back on, and the smaller Allen one to get into the back ones  :o

P.S. just in case you or anyone reading this is interested here is video of mine running right after I fixed an oil guard round the cam area. Used an old ikea plastic storage box. I still had downpipes off at this point so was noisy and was preparing to set the tappets, after I got downpipes on.

Runs good now so hopefully that gives some inspiration.

http://vid132.photobucket.com/albums/q11/Pichost28/Cars/Omega/Videos/senator-running-cam-cover-off_zps4fmgkxe8.mp4

Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: cam.in.head on 05 June 2017, 12:39:08
exhaust or not it still sounds good ! nice job
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Steve Brookman on 05 June 2017, 17:02:13
Thanks all,
I zip tied it for piece of mind. I did buy some longer splined drives which made accessing the rear head bolts relatively easy. Have done about 300 mile so far back and forth to work. Apart from a noisy manifold blow (cannot hear in car) its superb. As I said-not as quick as the Royale-but much more comfortable.
Next on the "to-do" list is to fix the central locking - I've identified a wire broken in the door loom and a "dodgy" front passenger window. It seems to stick-take it apart-take the motor out lubricate runners back together and works fine for a while and then it stops again-rinse and repeat-will have to get to the bottom of it.

Next move is to see if the Royale alloys fit it-they need a refurb - but in my eyes suit the car better. Will also keep a look out for a set of early Senator/Royale alloys.

Regards

Steve
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: BazaJT on 05 June 2017, 21:05:21
I have in the past seen a Royale coupe wearing the Senator alloys as shown in your picture at the beginning of this thread,so yes the Royale alloys will fit the Senator.
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: cam.in.head on 05 June 2017, 21:16:17
And you would need to check but im pretty sure most vauxhall 5 stud alloys will fit.this includes the nice ones found on omegas (in my opinion) but may not suit the car and of course some insurance companys dont like modified cars.
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: grifter on 06 June 2017, 13:40:34
Thanks all,
I zip tied it for piece of mind. I did buy some longer splined drives which made accessing the rear head bolts relatively easy. Have done about 300 mile so far back and forth to work. Apart from a noisy manifold blow (cannot hear in car) its superb. As I said-not as quick as the Royale-but much more comfortable.
Next on the "to-do" list is to fix the central locking - I've identified a wire broken in the door loom and a "dodgy" front passenger window. It seems to stick-take it apart-take the motor out lubricate runners back together and works fine for a while and then it stops again-rinse and repeat-will have to get to the bottom of it.

Next move is to see if the Royale alloys fit it-they need a refurb - but in my eyes suit the car better. Will also keep a look out for a set of early Senator/Royale alloys.

Regards

Steve

My mate has a full set of those 5 spoke ronal wheels he inherited when he bought his house. He's not into monzas etc. so no use for them. They look quite good nick too.
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Steve Brookman on 06 June 2017, 16:53:52
Thanks Grifter.

Would definitely be interested in the Ronals!

Steve
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: grifter on 06 June 2017, 22:02:53
Thanks Grifter.

Would definitely be interested in the Ronals!

Steve

Ok Steve, will try and get a few pics from him to let you see them first.
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Steve Brookman on 07 June 2017, 17:23:24
Thanks :y
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Steve Brookman on 25 June 2017, 15:53:41
Update.
 
 
Been using the Senator back and forth to work for the last month. It's a fantastic car for it-my commute is about 6 miles A road and 6 miles dual carriageway-it romps along very well.
 
On the way to work Friday-brother said "this is the most comfortable car we've had" and yesterday picked up a mate who said "this is the most comfortable car I've been in"- a bit of a coincidence.
 
To be fair-the ride is superb and the "veloooooor" seats are supremely comfortable.
 
Only niggles-exhaust still blowing at up-pipe to manifold joint-cannot her it from inside-and a dodgy passenger window-take it apart motor is fine-put back together it works for a day or so and then jams again.
 
Was underneath it checking brakes the other day-it's like a two year old car underneath-but will inject cavity wax before winter.
 
The only rust on the car are the two passenger side doors-but I have 4 good doors in the same colour which came with the car.
 
I think I'll take it off the road for winter and use the Royale instead.
 
I'm into the car for about £1000 ( purchase £600, recovery £100 and parts for the engine and other bits and pieces-about £300)
 
I must say-what a bargain!!
 
Steve
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Migv6 le Frog Fan on 25 June 2017, 17:16:49
Update.
 
 
Been using the Senator back and forth to work for the last month. It's a fantastic car for it-my commute is about 6 miles A road and 6 miles dual carriageway-it romps along very well.
 
On the way to work Friday-brother said "this is the most comfortable car we've had" and yesterday picked up a mate who said "this is the most comfortable car I've been in"- a bit of a coincidence.
 
To be fair-the ride is superb and the "veloooooor" seats are supremely comfortable.
 
Only niggles-exhaust still blowing at up-pipe to manifold joint-cannot her it from inside-and a dodgy passenger window-take it apart motor is fine-put back together it works for a day or so and then jams again.
 
Was underneath it checking brakes the other day-it's like a two year old car underneath-but will inject cavity wax before winter.
 
The only rust on the car are the two passenger side doors-but I have 4 good doors in the same colour which came with the car.
 
I think I'll take it off the road for winter and use the Royale instead.
 
I'm into the car for about £1000 ( purchase £600, recovery £100 and parts for the engine and other bits and pieces-about £300)
 
I must say-what a bargain!!
 
Steve

Almost everyone who got in my Senator said that. Even swmbo loved it. She thinks Omegas are shit though.  ::) ;D
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Steve Brookman on 26 July 2017, 19:15:36
Now done nearly 1000 miles in the Senator.

Going very well.

A few niggles-passenger electric window not working. Take it all apart motor works, mechanism works-put it back together and after a day or two stops. Could be a weak motor?

Exhaust still blowing from manifold join. Cannot hear from inside so will live with it for a while.

Car sometimes takes two goes to start when hot and left in hot weather.

Apart from those-very comfortable and gets a move on when the revs pick up.

Not as quick as the Royale though-that has the same engine but a four speed auto.

Royale should be motd in a week or two.

Regards

Steve
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: cam.in.head on 02 August 2017, 17:57:49
If you used the early head bolts then it will be ready for a retorque by now. But if you used the later type and angle tightened all should be well.nothing needed.glad its all running well and good. Yes the senator/ royale range of cars were very comfy and probably no doubt helped by the seats .i have had many of them over the years and carltons.all a matter of opinion but dont ruin the excellent original setup by fitting uprated monza gse suspension.not that i think you would. Still think the omega especialy without leather is more comfortable.
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Keith ABS on 03 August 2017, 13:08:27
  As a late update about the wheels, the cars built after 86 had different stud spacing so will not fit pre 87 cars. BMW will fit as same centres

Keith ABS
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: cam.in.head on 03 August 2017, 15:28:40
I was under the impression that all gm 5 stud pcd was 110 mm
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Steve Brookman on 06 August 2017, 12:10:39
Thanks Chris,
I'm into originality-the only thing I would possibly do is change the wheels for the earlier type.

Thanks for the advice on re-torqueing-will give it a go!

Steve
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: cam.in.head on 07 August 2017, 19:01:33
Hi steve .the retorqueing is only if you fitted earlier bolts and torqued up but not angle tightened. They say usually after 500 mile .dont actually undo the bolts by any appreciable amount.just enough to"break" the bond then re torque each one to 50 lbs .in sequence .then do each one to 74lbs ( i think. I havnt got my book here ! )the two front 6mm allen bolts may take a nip up too!.
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Steve Brookman on 08 August 2017, 16:08:20
Thanks Chris,
I did use the 3 stage method-your values are correct as well!

Will give it a go.

Regards

Steve
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: cam.in.head on 08 August 2017, 17:48:42
No problem steve. Any other questions / issues with the car dont hesitate to ask 👍
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Steve Brookman on 18 October 2017, 08:11:25
Morning all,

having a few problems with my Senator 1983 3.0E.

When cold it starts instantly. Will also start instantly if left up to an hour after driving. If it then cools down it takes a lot of churning to start it.

This morning from cold it took a lot of churning to start and then missed a bit and eventually cleared-decided to take my Range Rover to work instead.

Wondering if I've got leaky injectors or the temp sender for the injection could be dodgy (even though it looks new).

Will try and investigate further tonight.

Any advice greatly appreciated as I'd rather use this than my other cars for the daily grind-much more comfy!

Steve
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: cam.in.head on 18 October 2017, 10:16:47
sounds like leaky injectors to me .its a common problem on those.mine did the same when i first got it in 94.used to start after nightime perfect and if i called in a shop on way to work but would be a struggle if left for 1 to 4 hours.i found a new set of injectors on ebay and has been fine ever since but they will be harder or more expensive to find now.cleaning is an option but doesnt always work especially if the seats have become worn or damaged over time with dirt in the fuel.it might not be every injector.aside from sending them away to be tested /cleaned you could do a basic test by lifting all the injectors out but still connected up.then pressurise fuel system with the starter smallwire disconnected.to see if any are leaking but its a faf to do and you will most likely end up with leaks to the disturbed fuel hoses which will be hardened in that area.worth running some injector cleaner in the tank to see if it helps ? .one other thing you could do is fit a fuel cut off switch in line with the pump .acts as an extra anti theft too. then when you stop the car you can flick the switch before you turn off the engine.the fuel pressure will fall and the engine will start to slow down and you switch it off. leaves less pressure to bleed through the injectors .
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: cam.in.head on 18 October 2017, 10:36:34
to check temp sender it should have a resistance of approx 3-5k ohms when cold to approx 2-500 ohms when hot. early models the resstance is across the two terminals only and infinate to earth.later models are a twin element unit and should give similar readings between any terminal and earth and double between them.i think yours will all be early single element types.make sure you are testing the bosch (usually blue) temp sender unit not the similar looking but larger thermo time switch which is also on the thermostat housing. see some google images.
one other final thing to check but you will need to plumb in a pressure guage temporarily is that the fuel pump is holding pressure itself.it has a non return valve built in to it. that why you can only suck one way through it..problem is it will be hard to tell ,if the pressure falls wether its going back through the pump or forward through the injectors.only way to prove the pump is to swap it with a know perfect one on your other car
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 18 October 2017, 11:18:14
If you floor the throttle and crank for a few seconds, then stopping and starting as normal does it fire up ok?
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Steve Brookman on 18 October 2017, 12:22:37
Thanks all!!!,

I will check the temp sensor tonight - if light when I get home.
It looks new-but with the quality of things today-could be kaput.

 With regards to the injectors-I'll warm it up and leave it for an hou and pull the plugs-see if any vapour etc there. I have a good set of injectors spare from Keith (ABS) so if i can identify the leaky one(s) -I'll swap over.

Regards and many thanks again

Steve
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 18 October 2017, 13:18:47
Do the above test first, it might not be the injectors (you want to prove it).

And of course, pulling the plugs wont tell a lot as the fuel would leak into the inlet manifold on all but 1/2 cylinders.
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Steve Brookman on 19 October 2017, 06:39:27
Had a quick look last night-but it was getting dark-resistance cold was correct but didn't have light or time to check when warming up-I'll do it on the weekend and keep the meter attached.

Started perfectly and ran as usual.

Will update on the weekend and many thanks for help.

Steve

Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Steve Brookman on 30 October 2017, 13:59:40
Still running ok-apart from starting when left an hour.

Now completed 2000 miles.

Only noticed the other morning that the side vents are illuminated.

Will have to upgrade headlight bulbs as pretty poor on dark mornings.

Will also pump a gallon Dinitrol in before too long.

Steve
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Steve Brookman on 14 November 2017, 18:53:20
Going to cut back a little using the Senator over winter-will drop it to 2 days a week. Heating is not the best-think I've got air in the heater matrix-will fill the matrix via the long heater hose. Also since the first frost-petrol consumption has risen quite a bit. I'll use my Range Rover (18 years old) the other days or may use the Royale once or twice-but I don't like salty roads!

Pumped a fair bit of Dinotrol into the Royale's sills on the weekend-meant to do it when the weather was warmer-but I just enjoyed driving it!

Will also pump a bit into the Senators sills next weekend. I'll do it again in the summer when it gets warmer.

Steve
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: neil74 on 14 November 2017, 21:19:04
Reminds me of my white 2.5 manual senator. when started from cold it would cut out immediately until it warmed up. also the handbrake barely worked on one side and it was always fun to try to start the car from cold on a hill. I was nagged into selling it by my sisters current boyfriend at the time and to top it off he had already borrowed my previous black 3.0 one and managed to tear the seat back and stuff one of the rear doors in.
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Steve Brookman on 30 May 2018, 20:23:40
Another MOT passed today!
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Steve Brookman on 28 July 2018, 10:32:00
Update.

Senator and Royale used daily in rotation. Both going well-had an issue with the Royale cutting out-but a second hand ECU that I had in the garage cured this. Sold my Range Rover-only did 800 miles in one year-so Senator and Royale will be used more.

Royale's MOT is up in a month and it may need a bit of welding to the ends of the sills.


Love driving both cars-gets lots of looks and comments-both easily keep up with traffic and the Senator in particular is supremely comfortable. Only downside is that they both like a drink!



Steve
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: cam.in.head on 28 July 2018, 15:16:52
Hi Steve. Great to hear both cars are up and running well.
Hope I'm not the bringer of doom here (or more unforeseen work !) but when you mention that the royale responded to an ecu swap I was just wondering !.
The area where the Ecu sits is very prone to getting wet .either from a windscreen corner seal leak (easy fix) or the double skinned area behind the front wing a panel / behind the inner wing reinforcement triangle.this rotted on both my senators and Carlton and was a bugger to reach as it's an inside job and quite high up behind the lower dash.(easier on the passenger side thou)
Can be easily checked with a torch from inside the car if needs be.
Just wondered if this was what caused the original ecu to fail .dont want it to happen again to the new one.
Also worth making sure the ecu has a plastic sheet over the top of it anyway (as original) to stop any water drips be them leaks or just good old condensation.
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Steve Brookman on 29 July 2018, 09:34:11
Thanks Chris-great to hear from you again-how's things?
I haven't noticed any water-but will definitely have a look today as its pouring down.

Regards Steve
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: cam.in.head on 29 July 2018, 10:34:05
Hi Steve . Yes I’m fine thanks. Glad you are too .
Yes today is a good time to check for water leaks as last nights downpour should have certainly found them if there were any !
Happy hunting !
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Steve Brookman on 30 July 2018, 16:12:20
No water!

Had a prod underneath as MOT in a month-found a hole. Will have to practise my MIG welding i think.

(http://i.imgur.com/Br81xw3.jpg) (https://imgur.com/Br81xw3)

(http://i.imgur.com/VR71khG.jpg) (https://imgur.com/VR71khG)

Steve
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 31 July 2018, 07:36:52
That will learn you... Incidentally, if that's what the rear chassis rail looks like, expect more of the same at the front :'(
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: cam.in.head on 31 July 2018, 18:47:44
Hi steve. Common area on senators there although it usually starts on the bottom section that wraps under.(where the handbrake cable passes by).its a double skinned section so a moisture trap.strangely thou i bet the other side of the car is fine !.
Should be a doddle to someone like you thou especially if it is only the side as its easy to work on .
Realy thou to be 100% safe its a fuel tank out job
Never had any issues with senators on the front chassis rails but seen plenty on later carltons.
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Steve Brookman on 06 November 2018, 06:40:04
Not been online for a while.

Update on vehicles.

Royale not welded yet-had  petrol tank leak-pinhole at bottom-drained and used some petrol tank putty-time will tell if it worked.

Senator out to Aldis on Sunday. Fine on the way-initially started after shopping then cut out. Thought it was the problem I get with it that if it is left for a while after being warm  it takes a lot of cranking to start-usually instantaneous starting when cold (changed everything-ECU, cold start sensor, air flow meter- apart from injectors-could possibly be a leaky injector-or perhaps a s someone said dodgy wiring at the pump).
 
Tried a few times but not catching.
 Walked home got a few tools (myself included) and went back in the Sierra. Took out plugs-bone dry. Checked fuses and hit relays-still nothing. Got underneath and bashed the fuel pum0p and started immediately.
 
So new pump and filter ordered. The design on these is crap-the filter comes after the pump-so any shit in the tank hits the pump first.
 
Steve
Title: Re: Senator A2-update
Post by: Steve Brookman on 24 April 2019, 08:58:17
Still having problems starting with the Senator (3.0 injection).

Usually starts immediately from cold-but when warm and left for a while-takes up to 5 seconds of churning for it to start -when warm/hot and left for a few mins-it starts immediately. It's now started to do it when cold.

Have changed coolant sensor, ecu, MAF, petrol pump, filter and removed the petrol pressure damper.

Did think I had fixed it once when it wouldn't start in the local Aldis' Hit the pump with my jack handle and it started immediately hot or cold. I suspected the pump, put a new one on and it was perfect for about a month-then it went back to it's old ways.

Next think I am going to try is running the car from a petrol can, i.e. disconnecting the pipe from the tank and extending it to put into a petrol jack. This will hopefully see whether or not I've got a problem with the pick up in the tank or the tank itself. The tank was resealed before i got it.

Will keep informed.

Steve
(http://i.imgur.com/ZolF61l.jpg) (https://imgur.com/ZolF61l)
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: dave the builder on 24 April 2019, 10:28:36
2 some things
1, have you swapped the fuel pump relay , very common
2, have you bypassed the fuel pump relay(so it runs constantly)  and given the plug at the pump a wiggle ,if it is a poor connection on the 2 pin plug (also very common) the pump may cut out /start up ,i read you put a new pump in ,but the plug to pump contacts is poor .
i also recall some get a dry joint on the fat starter motor positive cable (needs re-soldering )
also also  ;D all earth points around the engine bay etc may need a clean up ,and the earth strap on the alternator may want beefing up

also also also  ::) a tired battery will not help
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Steve Brookman on 24 April 2019, 12:45:55
Thanks Dave,

New relay (also checked on my Royale). New connectors on pump-was also thinking of running another earth wire to pump. will also rig test lamp to pump to see if it kicks in immediately when cranking.

Many thanks

Steve
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Steve Brookman on 02 May 2019, 18:31:32
Have been using the Senator back and forth to work this week. Still a pain to start even when cold. Only fires instantly if left for 15 mins or so.
Went to start it in work and on spinning over it made a "phut" sound- similar to the sound when an engine backfires through the carb when the timing is way out. It then started.

Will have to investigate a bit further!

Steve
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: cam.in.head on 03 May 2019, 15:26:37
Hi steve. As Dave mentioned check starter motor connections .they are crimped into the lugs and can work loose .also the injection loom earth on the side of the inlet manifold.
.might be worth running a wire from the fuel pump live to the inside of car and putting a bulb on it to monitor wether it gets power whilst you have the issue.dont neglect to check the pump negative lead either.or replace it to be sure to a new cleaned point nearby.
I have had very similar issues in the past on these injection systems whereby it was caused by either sticky or leaking injectors .(leaking through into the manifold not externally)
Also check that the airflow meter flap is not sticky.it can be reached by removing the big flexi.
 Other than that it’s handy that you have the royale.if I remember correctly it’s also a 3 litre of similar age so parts can be exchanged between if needs be for free .
Other things to check that you have more than likely checked already..........air leaks from gaskets ,injector base o rings,servo hose(very common),airflow meter big flexi hose,pressure build up in crankcase due to blocked valve cover mesh/ breather,vacuum build up in fuel tank vents due to blocked breather,split in fuel pressure valve vacuum hose,split in auto gearbox vacuum valve hose(leads to small metal pipe near top back of inlet manifold,incorrect throttle stop screw ,faulty idle air valve or hoses.
A bit to have a go at there steve. Happy hunting mate
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Steve Brookman on 03 May 2019, 17:05:34
Many thanks again Chris!

I'll check the pump again with a bulb as you suggested and will also run another ground to the pump.

I've swapped most things over from the Royale-apart from the injectors-I have a spare set of injectors so will try these as well.

Whats bugging me was that it was ok when I bashed the pump and ok for a few weeks with a new pump and filter.

Will report back!

Many thanks again
 

Regards

Steve
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: cam.in.head on 04 May 2019, 19:10:47
If you still have the old filter might be worth splitting it open to check there's not a lot of junk coming throu and blocking the filter.hopefully not as it will have all come through the pump first !.
Did you say you had had the tank sealed on this car ? . I've had "renew system" sealed tanks whereby there's been orange stuff coming through the filter from the tank lining .settles down eventually but we will have to monitor things anyway if the e10 fuel comes in as they predict as it damages parts of older fuel systems .
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: BazaJT on 05 May 2019, 07:30:00
From memory[which admittedly could be faulty]there is/was/should be a small filter on the end of the pick up pipe inside the tank.The fuel pump relay that has been mentioned is that the little one that clips over the bulkhead lip?
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: henryd on 05 May 2019, 11:49:51
It's worth checking  if the small carbon contact in centre of distributor cap is intact.
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Keith ABS on 05 May 2019, 17:53:02
 Yes, fuel pump relay is on the bulkhead under the bonnet on these
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Andy B on 05 May 2019, 19:58:01
It's worth checking  if the small carbon contact in centre of distributor cap is intact.

Been there ... done that!  ;D

Also had the spring contact break off the rotor arm too ... not something that is immediately obvious  ???
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Steve Brookman on 06 May 2019, 09:26:15
Thanks all-will check these out-could be the gauze filter blocked in the tank.

Since the problem it's had a new rotor arm, distributor cap, petrol pump and filter, swapped over temp sensor from Royale along with the Maf (I think) sensor (air box), ECU.

When I get a bit of time I really need to look at the supply at the pump-both petrol and electrical. If it was lack of petrol I would have thought it would splutter when starting-but after spinning over for several seconds it starts and the revs go up to about 3000rpm for a second or so.

Steve
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: cam.in.head on 06 May 2019, 23:36:14
Once it starts does it rev cleanly and run perfect even when uphill ? . If so I wouldn’t suspect any fuel blockages or supply issues .a plumbed in pressure gauge would confirm this.( and any other pressure leakage issues,ie back to tank via pump one way valve or injectors forward.)
When mine had brand new injectors fitted it turned over for a good few seconds before firing.when it fired it did so cleanly with all cylinders coming in at once and ran smoothly.this issue settled down after a few starts.
your injectors are interchangeable between cars and a good chance to check sealing rings and maybee replace manifold fuel hoses at the same time.they do tend to harden up due to the immense heat they are subject to in that area.use correct rated good quality hoses here with the correct gm clips.
Title: Re: Senator A2.
Post by: Steve Brookman on 07 May 2019, 20:20:10
Thanks Chris,

Yep-once its started it runs cleanly-no missing or stuttering. It just revs initially up to about 3000rpm with a very light throttle. It's the same on the flat or on a hill. I have a second hand set of 6 injectors and new pipework-so will give that a go as well.

Thanks again

Steve