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[firemoth]

Just been told a really easy thing to check for my starting issues is to check egr isn't stuck open. Apparently it's under a cover and will see it. But I've no idea where it is. Any assistance please

[Magwheels]

Passenger side on top of engine manifold, round black thing with pipe coming off it, two bolts.

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSeWTDiJdHlIuZjZpqDNHvloCpoReKUArzrV_Ep3IrXya884jp3

[firemoth]

Ta muchly 

[firemoth]

Hmm that's not what I was expecting. Thought there'd be a lever I could push if it's sticking open

[TheBoy]

Hmm that's not what I was expecting. Thought there'd be a lever I could push if it's sticking open

Nope, vac operated, usually pretty gummed up.

However, if you're getting P0400 EGR errors, its rarely the EGR on these

[firemoth]

On indication I've got is it's terrible at starting when cold. Turns over and over before eventually catches a few times then fires. It's worse if it's a hot day and been parked in the sun all day. White smoke out the back when it does start. Unburnt fuel. It killed battery last week and had no leads so got recovery out. He plugged in diagnostics while there, no faults showing at all. Saw a YouTube video of a car starting from cold with egr stuck open (zafira 2.2dti) and started exactly the same as mine

[joff]

You can start by clening the EGR valve as it costs not a bean to do, but i bet you have an air leak in the fuel system at the end of the day. Reason it is worse on a hot day, (and don't shoot me down for this) metal on engine is at higher temp so gap/leak is bigger but when engine is cold (cold day) gap is small so engine starts better/quicker, on my DTI at the moment it's the 'o' ring on the injector that has gone so i burn oil on start up, but as soon as engine warm it does not burn oil

Do you have more problems when car is parked with nose/front up hill?

[firemoth]

No hills make no difference. Also it is temperature of day specific, not just because end of day. I work away and it's sat anywhere between 1 day and 5 days. I know that if it's over 19 degrees, I'm going to have issues. It's also picky if conditions are favourable, but if I start it, drive it 50 yards, turn it off (need keys to lock yard gates) the start out again. It's no where near as bad but still doesn't want to. Once engine at operating temperature it starts Bob on whether left 30 seconds or 2 hours

[joff]

No hills make no difference. Also it is temperature of day specific, not just because end of day. I work away and it's sat anywhere between 1 day and 5 days. I know that if it's over 19 degrees, I'm going to have issues. It's also picky if conditions are favourable, but if I start it, drive it 50 yards, turn it off (need keys to lock yard gates) the start out again. It's no where near as bad but still doesn't want to. Once engine at operating temperature it starts Bob on whether left 30 seconds or 2 hours

OK Yes start with EGR, but it will have a lot of carbon on it anyway so give it a good clean off with Gunk or the like and pop it back in, it will only take 5-10 min to do, then see what it like and get back to us

http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=124482.msg1585722#msg1585722

Did you look at the link i put on the above

[firemoth]

I did yeah. I enquired with garage on cost of them cleaning egr and intake manifold, apparently its a b***h of a job (the manifold) and depending on how gunked it is, it could be upto £150 depending on time which is too much for a maybe. Especially as I may have to be selling soon for a 7 seater

I'll give egr a clean first when I get chance and see how it goes. I take it is just take plastic cover off rocker cover, pull off vacuum pipe, then into the weird opposite torx bolts? (Sorry for poor terminology)

[joff]

I did yeah. I enquired with garage on cost of them cleaning egr and intake manifold, apparently its a b***h of a job (the manifold) and depending on how gunked it is, it could be upto £150 depending on time which is too much for a maybe. Especially as I may have to be selling soon for a 7 seater

I'll give egr a clean first when I get chance and see how it goes. I take it is just take plastic cover off rocker cover, pull off vacuum pipe, then into the weird opposite torx bolts? (Sorry for poor terminology)

Yep, that's about it. You could do the inlet manifold yourself depends how good you are with the spanners. Shame your not closer or i would do it for you. If you need any more info just post it up

[firemoth]

I've done worse jobs before but don't quite trust myself to do it. I would if it didn't matter if goes a little wrong (did a 96 Micra clutch on that basis a few years ago). But I'll get the egr done. Does it need a fresh gasket or anything?

[firemoth]

Had a revelation. Today i parked car on the banks on edge of car park. Tank nearly higher than engine. 18.5 degrees when I started it and it started perfectly. Think I've got a primer bulb or 2 at home so I'll pop one on fuel feed before the filter to see if it makes it any better

[joff]

I've done worse jobs before but don't quite trust myself to do it. I would if it didn't matter if goes a little wrong (did a 96 Micra clutch on that basis a few years ago). But I'll get the egr done. Does it need a fresh gasket or anything?

nope, just a good clean, there is an "o" ring on it you can check that

[firemoth]

Right. Update. I dug out a random primer bulb from the toolbox, gave it a good clean, opened bonnet and traced fuel lines. Wasn't sure if before or after filter is best, but access to pipes pretty much decided after. Then looking at the pipes, they're more plastic than rubber (rubbery plasticy if you will) I'm sure DTI owners know what I mean. Anyway, I got cold feet thinking there's chance the pipe may be a different size than primer connections, but I wouldn't know till after cutting it. If didn't fit, too late and I'm not getting to work tomorrow. So the primer bulb is on the sidelines for now.

I've took out the egr (8mm socket works a treat on those daft bolts!) And scraped the black crud off r plunger and checked it moves freely, which it does. In assuming it's OK. I don't know how much resistance it should give but it's not sticking it's a smooth movement so I think OK. Couple of pictures...



[/URL[URL=http://s1075.photobucket.com/user/jamesastra/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20140625_191822_zpsceuutbik.jpg.html]

I was also thinking, if i take the vacuum pipe off, will it not stay closed, therefore effectively no egr? I know clutching at straws but you know.....

Anyway, in lieu of the primer bulb I've got a little experiment to see if injector seals are causing the problem.




[/URL[URL=http://s1075.photobucket.com/user/jamesastra/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20140625_204211_zpsyxzhsml3.jpg.html]

Let's see how well it starts in the morning.....

[Magwheels]

I think if the pipe is off the EGR the EML comes on, not sure though.

[firemoth]

But run fine other than that?

[Magwheels]

Not really sure on the dti, did it on my td and no light and no problem but have heard on the dti it can be an issue. I was/am going to see about disconnecting or getting rid of the EGR but have not got round to it.

[VXL V6]

It'll kick off a P0400 code if the vac pipe is disconnected. The car will also have the acceleration of a slug coated in superglue which may get a little annoying.

To test the EGR valve, if you suck on the vacuum connection and put your finger over it the plunger should stay retracted.

[joff]

Are the Pic's after you have cleaned it. As said don't leave the vac pipe off

Did you have it running with the car up on the ramps before you left it for the night, So you know there is fuel to the engine. Then if it starts OK in the morning you know it points to you having an air leak, as normally car is hard to start. You could always test it the other way round on a night you do not have work in the morning (with the front up on the ramps) as when it does not start in the morning you know you have an air leak.

3 area's for air leak with most common and chepest to fix at the top

1. return/leak off pipes £20 approx for kit (trade club Vauxhall parts)
2. top seal on injectors £88-90 on trade club for Vauxhall parts
3. filter cap (never seen this yet ) don't know the price of a new one but i do have a used one.

Hope you have good luck in the morning, as I have a long 12 hour night shift to finish

oh yes the fuel pipe has a 10mm bore

[firemoth]

It was running to drive it up the ramps. I didn't push it up 

I've put the vacuum pipe on, it was just an afterthought.

The egr was after I just scraped crud off it. Don't know if there's more that I should do but only had 5 minutes to look at it. In all honesty I've never had one off before so don't really know what I'm looking at

[joff]

It looks fine, well OK for a good start, sorry but you were answering while i updated my post as i said above fuel pipe bore is 10mm

also look at this one
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=124526.msg1586250#msg1586250

[Magwheels]

Its only a vacuum operated valve. As long as the shaft is clean so it can move up and down it should be fine. Seating area around the end should also be clean so that it can seal against the manifold.

[firemoth]

It looks fine, well OK for a good start, sorry but you were answering while i updated my post as i said above fuel pipe bore is 10mm

also look at this one
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=124526.msg1586250#msg1586250

Yeah seen that one. I'm considering getting the manifold off but beyond that scares me. Don't trust myself

[joff]

It looks fine, well OK for a good start, sorry but you were answering while i updated my post as i said above fuel pipe bore is 10mm

also look at this one
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=124526.msg1586250#msg1586250

Yeah seen that one. I'm considering getting the manifold off but beyond that scares me. Don't trust myself


     If your going to do that, and yes the job is not to bad, you will need the fuel bulb in place first to stop the fuel going bank to the tank as you have to take the injector pipes off to get the manifold out, you only have to take the cam cover off if you need to do the top injector seal.

     You can get both upper and lower manifold joints from any good auto factor's for about £3-5 each. i used Gunk the other week for the first time on my brothers inlet manifold and it worked fine, about £5 from Halfords.

[firemoth]

Update on the leaving it in the ramps overnight. No difference whatsoever

[joff]

Now that bugs me goes away to have a think on this one.

[firemoth]

My thoughts are either glow plugs or temp sensor. Glow plugs because it starts fine at operating temperature, temp sensor because it's worse the warmer the ambient temperature.

[firemoth]

Going to be selling it soon though as we've just bought a galaxy (pick up Sunday) but determined to sort it before I do. Runs perfect so must be something simple

[firemoth]

Found another symptom I think. Just finished work, 20 degrees, engine was reliably an arse to start. About 5 minutes cranking on and off. Then 2 people commented how rough it sounds. I've always said it sometimes does when cold. Now I think about it, it only does and always does after it takes ages to start. I've no idea if or what that could signify, going someone might.....

[joff]

Glow plugs, ok but it's not cold outside so that should not happen, used to have that on an old Cav but only in cold weather. I wonder it the timing is just a little out, but I still think there is an air leak

[firemoth]

It could be glow plugs. Lower power output when warmer possibly equating to next to none but still OK when full if they're naffed. Timing was something I was thinking too. Explains it being noisy too as if its slightly advanced, but then I found out it's on a chain which apparently never needs changing so how could the timing jump out? If it jumped a tooth surely I'd have more problems

[joff]

     Correct timing is on a chain, but how long have you had this car? If the other owner has been trying to fix the same fault and has had the cam out for what ever reason!!! Then the timing could be out, as if you follow the guide I put up they don't use locking pins and it is very easy to have the timing out, as the cam chain cog is bolted to the cam shaft without any key way if you don't lock engine at TDC together with the fuel pump and cam shaft you are asking for trouble.

     It's always best to check timing after having the top end apart, it does not take long to do.

1. Put engine to TDC, mark on crank pulley about 1o'clock
2. Take cover off fuel pump ( six screws front right on engine, you may have to take aux belt tensioner off to get to it)
3. Remove crank sensor (just above sump on N/S of engine)
4. Remove cam cover and and remove vac pump to check cam position correct.

Fuel pump has a locking pin hole at about 1 o'clock when at TDC and all should line up, and if you use a mirror and torch you can check the crank is in correct position as there is a locking pin hole in crank that you can see when sensor removed,

[firemoth]

Good news! Did the ramp thing again but on a slight hill too so back end really was up. Car started mon the button! So I pretty much know it's a fuel going back issue. Quickfix, primer bulb on fuel line after filter. Will that work?

[joff]

I fitted one after filter on the brothers Elite (always best to fit before filter). It should work as there is a non return valve in the bulb, so until you open the system (change filter) the fuel should stay. Complete fix is renew seals remember fuel line bore is 10mm

[firemoth]

Long awaited update. Car has since been replaced for a 7 seater (gutted!) And for various reasons, car has pretty much been sat there. But I made some time for tinkering. Cut into the fuel pipe which runs across the top of the engine. 10mm primer bulb was too small so got a 12mm. This is too big. Can't find an 11mm and tried securing the 10mm tightly with jubilee clips but doesn't seal. So if anyone knows where I can get an 11mm one....

Anyway, I've managed to persuade the 12mm on enough for testing purposes, primed the system up, and heard dripping. Turns out the injector leak off pipe from the front cylinder injector was loose and weeping. Pushed in, felt it click, and all seems well. Started fine, tried again after 4 hours, started on first turn. This was on Sunday. Not tried since as work away so will see if it starts on Friday when I get home. Fingers crossed!

Once all fixed it's time to sell :-(  need to be quick though as tax is up at end of this month and mot expires 14th October....

[4x4]

Common fault on the dti,best to change all of them as they fail and cause starting issues like you had 

[firemoth]

It hadn't failed, just popped off. Felt it click into place so I'm happy it's good enough.

[firemoth]

Just to update, after leaving it a week, other than a flat battery, it fired up straight away using jump leads. So fueling issue has gone 😀 just need to figure out how I'm going to get a 12mm primer bulb into an 11mm plasticy pipe......  Then get car put back together, cleaned up in and out, and its ready for the market. Might get it MOT'd first as I'm sure no mot will hurt it's value more than a test fee and maybe the odd fix. Although it could well fly through