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Author Topic: Running issues, diagnostic advice needed  (Read 2129 times)

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omegod

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Running issues, diagnostic advice needed
« on: 02 November 2016, 20:25:56 »

Trying to help out one of our brethren Tony who has long running issues with his 2.5, it's had new plugs, leads and dis pack but the following persists , in his own words:

"The symtoms are as follows, missfire under light throttle. (seem harder to start from cold in the last week) running seems to  slightly improve as the engine warms up, when  driven hard the "miss" seems to clear and the firing is normal until desired cruising speed is reached them as the throttle is backed off the "miss" returns. mpg has taken a beating down to 13 MPG around town"

I have the unmentionable diagnostic device and have no intention of using it for programming but am happy to look at any monitors/values to try and narrow down what may be wonky so would be grateful if you guys could advise what we need to look at and what the normal values would be, lambda switching , fuel trims and anything else useful etc

 
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Nick W

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Re: Running issues, diagnostic advice needed
« Reply #1 on: 02 November 2016, 20:31:10 »

A physical check for an air leak between the Mass Air Flow Meter and inlet manifolds is your next step. That includes all of the vacuum pipes.
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Andy H

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Re: Running issues, diagnostic advice needed
« Reply #2 on: 02 November 2016, 21:56:37 »

If no one comes forward with any more suggestions........

Check that the temperature reported by the coolant temperature sensor (CTS) and air intake sensor are credible.

Check the fuel trims

How well does it run with the MAF unplugged?
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Diamond Black Geezer

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Re: Running issues, diagnostic advice needed
« Reply #3 on: 03 November 2016, 14:08:33 »

And adding to the 'vac leak' theory - an incorrectly-fitted plenum can cause leaks, as can trapping the long hose that runs down the NS (coolant for the throttle body, so I recall) also can be the cause of things. I had an issue with vac leak, when I went to fit a new CTS, as mentioned above, I noticed the coolant pipe did rather 'spring' out as I lifted the plenum. I'll never know if it was in any way trapped, or causing a slight leak, but it's possible, and has been known. You do somewhat need three hands to replace the plenum, some days. Also the o-rings slipping is another known one. U think I've 'glued' them in place with a dab of vaseline / oil before, to ensure they are seated right. :).
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Re: Running issues, diagnostic advice needed
« Reply #4 on: 03 November 2016, 14:25:03 »

Coolant temp sensor readings would also be on my list.

Do also check the large breather pipe for split and/or damage, seen one before with very similar symptoms which was caused by this.
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omegod

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Re: Running issues, diagnostic advice needed
« Reply #5 on: 03 November 2016, 19:41:21 »

Plenum is seated properly , Tony has sprayed a fair bit of carb cleaner around with no increase in revs. What should the coolant temp sensor be showing as healthy also lambdas , what should they switch to and from?
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Re: Running issues, diagnostic advice needed
« Reply #6 on: 03 November 2016, 20:08:08 »

Ecu coolant temp should be around 92 degrees C ie a smidgen higher than the gauge ;)

Much below or above suggests a failed or thermostat, open if lower, closed if higher...
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Diamond Black Geezer

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Re: Running issues, diagnostic advice needed
« Reply #7 on: 04 November 2016, 09:38:24 »

Plenum is seated properly , Tony has sprayed a fair bit of carb cleaner around with no increase in revs. What should the coolant temp sensor be showing as healthy also lambdas , what should they switch to and from?


I'm not saying you're wrong, but I sprayed a fair bit of carb cleaner, too (getting underneath the plenum with a spray I'd say is close to impossible, the gap you have to aim for is tiny) with no effects, but I'm sure there was still a slight, if only slight weep/gap. Only cured when I re-seated it after a major service. (also doing the CTS, which definitely helped)

As I say, not saying you're wrong, just for future reference/future readers of this thread, it can be a bugger.   :)
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omegod

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Re: Running issues, diagnostic advice needed
« Reply #8 on: 04 November 2016, 19:34:37 »

Managed to swing by Tony's today between meetings, Code 19 present but I doubt that would cause such running issues. It's stinging of fuel from the exhaust and unplugging MAF made no difference. I took some data snapshots which I'll stick up when I get chance
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TheBoy

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Re: Running issues, diagnostic advice needed
« Reply #9 on: 05 November 2016, 11:19:06 »

Managed to swing by Tony's today between meetings, Code 19 present but I doubt that would cause such running issues. It's stinging of fuel from the exhaust and unplugging MAF made no difference. I took some data snapshots which I'll stick up when I get chance
That's a reason on its own to change cranksensor.  Wouldn't be the first cranksensor fault to cause poor running.
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Re: Running issues, bit of data added
« Reply #10 on: 07 November 2016, 19:22:41 »

OK here's a wee snapshot if it helps, car was at idle and temp matched what was on the gauge. Anything obvious standing out ?? I did get some live data recorded if it's any use. Will see if I have a spare crank sensor to try 

Control Unit:             
            
KW82 protocol initialized.            
            
ECU ID= HH   90492382   261203588   1037350104   3
            
            
Measuring blocks information:            
            
Identifier   0D         
Battery Voltage   13.8 V         
Immobiliser Signal   Received         
Immobiliser   Active         
TPS Signal (Throttle Position Sensor)   0.55 V         
Simulated Idle Position   Active         
Simulated Full Load Switch   Inactive         
Mass Air Flow Sensor   0.88 V         
Mass Air Flow Sensor   18 kg/h         
Coolant Temperature   1.66 V         
Coolant Temperature   66 °C         
Intake Air Temperature   3.53 V         
Intake Air Temperature   20 °C         
Engine Type   6 Cylinder         
Transmission Coding   Automatic Transmission         
Park/Neutral Switch   P - N  0V         
A/C Information Switch (Air Conditioning)   Inactive 0V         
A/C Compressor Switch (Air Conditioning)   Inactive 0V         
Telltale (Check Light)   Off 12V         
Fuel Pump Relay   Active 0V         
Spark Angle before TDC (Top Dead Centre)   2 °CA         
Ignition Coil Cyl. 1+4 (Cylinder)   Load         
Ignition Coil Cyl. 2+5   Load         
Ignition Coil Cyl. 3+6 (Cylinder)   Load         
Knock Signal   Inactive         
Knock Retard   0 °CA         
Secondary Air Pump Relay   Inactive 12V         
EGR Valve (Exhaust-Gas Recirculation)   Inactive         
EGR Position Feedback (Exhaust Gas Recirculation)   0.76 V         
Fuel Tank Ventilation Valve   0%         
O2 Sensor 1   790 mV         
O2 Sensor 2   283 mV         
O2 Sensor Loop 1   Closed         
O2 Sensor Loop 2   Closed         
Air/Fuel Ratio 1   Lean         
Air/Fuel Ratio 2   Rich         
O2-Loop 1 Integrator   132 Steps         
O2-Loop 2 Integrator   138         
O2-Loop 1 BLM Idle (Block Learn Map)   160 Steps         
O2-Loop 2 BLM Idle (Block Learn Map)   25 Steps         
O2-Loop 1 BLM Partial Load (Block Learn Map)   117 Steps         
O2-Loop 2 BLM Partial Load(Block Learn Map)   154 Steps         
Hall Sensor   Inactive         
Engine Speed Pulse   Active         
Engine Speed   693 RPM         
Idle Air Control   147 Steps         
IAC Integrator (Idle Air Control)   132 Steps         
IAC Adaptation Slope (Idle Air Control)   140 Steps         
IAC Block Learn (Idle Air Control)   131 Steps         
Desired Idle Air   15 kg/h         
Actual Value Idle Air   15 kg/h         
Desired Engine Idle Speed   670 RPM         
Injection Pulse   3.8 ms         
Engine Load Signal   1.5 ms         
TPS Load Signal (Throttle Position Sensor)   0%         
Vehicle Speed Pulse   Not Received 12V         
Vehicle Speed   0 km/h         
Intake Manifold Valve 1   Inactive 12V         
Intake Manifold Valve 2   Inactive 12V         
Torque Control   Inactive         
A/C Cutoff Relay (Air Conditioning)   Inactive 12V         
Diagnostic Request   Inactive 5V         
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Tony H

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Re: Running issues, diagnostic advice needed
« Reply #11 on: 07 November 2016, 19:33:36 »

Jeesus Jon it's all greek to me,  ??? but like to say a big  thank you for all your help in trying to sort out this matter your a star  :y
« Last Edit: 07 November 2016, 19:40:10 by Tony H »
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Entwood

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Re: Running issues, diagnostic advice needed
« Reply #12 on: 07 November 2016, 20:30:28 »

I'm no expert but seems to be a BIG difference in Side 1 v Side 2 ..

O2 Sensor 1   790 mV         
O2 Sensor 2   283 mV         
O2 Sensor Loop 1   Closed         
O2 Sensor Loop 2   Closed         
Air/Fuel Ratio 1   Lean         
Air/Fuel Ratio 2   Rich         
O2-Loop 1 Integrator   132 Steps         
O2-Loop 2 Integrator   138         
O2-Loop 1 BLM Idle (Block Learn Map)   160 Steps         
O2-Loop 2 BLM Idle (Block Learn Map)   25 Steps         
O2-Loop 1 BLM Partial Load (Block Learn Map)   117 Steps         
O2-Loop 2 BLM Partial Load(Block Learn Map)   154 Step

Is there any way you can read the injector timings ?? If it's not an air-leak then possibly one (or more) injector(s) is (are) out of sync with the rest ??
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Tony H

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Re: Running issues, diagnostic advice needed
« Reply #13 on: 08 November 2016, 20:05:55 »

Just been on a twenty mile run and tried leaving the box in sport mode ( not driving it hard) seemed to run a lot better which ties in to some of my previous posts that the "missfire" has a direct relation to engine revs. 
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