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[Bigron]

But we can pee standing up! 

Ron.

[Lizzie Zoom]

But we can pee standing up! 

Ron.

So can we when really desperate and not wanting to make a scene; that's what skirts are good for!

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

On the other hand Women can talk or they can think (mostly about shoes for some bizarre reason). They rarely stop talking for long enough to think though. 

Ah, but we can multi-task, so we can make a pigs ear of several things, at the same time

This is also true. 

[Lizzie Zoom]

On the other hand Women can talk or they can think (mostly about shoes for some bizarre reason). They rarely stop talking for long enough to think though. 

Ah, but we can multi-task, so we can make a pigs ear of several things, at the same time

This is also true. 

You blighter!

[Rods2]

As vile as the Nazi rule was with 6m murdered there is an even viler system on our planet that has murdered 100m in 100 years it's called Communism. It gets a free pass from the left wing in all Western countries and NOBODY has ever been punished.

Stalin murdered 6-8m Ukrainians in the 1932-33 Holodomor. A deliberate genocide by forcibly taking all the food from vast areas of Ukraine. My wife's family only survived where they kept bees and the bee hives weren't confiscated and they has a cherry orchard. They couldn't risk eating the cherries and so they eat the cherry tree leaves with honey. Many people died in their village along with adjacent cities, towns and villages.

In WWII in a process of extermination by both the Nazis and Soviets in Ukraine there were 1.4m military deaths including, my wife's granddad in 1944 where he served in the Red Army. 7m civilian deaths murdered by both side including 0.5m Jews killed by the Nazis.

I think the difference is Rod that the Soviets were a very important part of the Allied forces that defeated the Nazis.  The Soviets were the victors, and so would not be put on trial as the Nazis were at Nuremberg, and infact were a vital element of the prosecution.  With Stalin very much in power there was no chance of the West even starting to consider Soviet war crimes. There was no appetite for that, and then of course came the Cold War anyway.  Stalin died in 1953, the year I was born, and the Soviet system remained intact under new leaders until the CCCP was dissolved in 1991. There was little chance then of bringing about any justice for the millions murdered by the Soviets during WW2, or later.

Now, in the West, as you have correctly stated, we are in a situation again of having an almost politically closed situation with Putin, who I am sure would not assist with any move to bring war crimes to book.  Indeed, as with the Nazis, there are few Soviets alive now who could be held culpable for any crimes.  It is not going to happen, and now, regretfully, must be filed in history, but used as a record of what humans can do to each other and as a warning for the future.

...and be ignored as is felt convenient by the the rest of the world. Witness the Balkans, Syria, Yemen... need I go on?

On going are Putin's war crimes in Chechnya (with Kadyrov), Ukraine and Syria (with Assad) and crimes against his own population in Russia including the Moscow apartment bombings.

[Lizzie Zoom]

As vile as the Nazi rule was with 6m murdered there is an even viler system on our planet that has murdered 100m in 100 years it's called Communism. It gets a free pass from the left wing in all Western countries and NOBODY has ever been punished.

Stalin murdered 6-8m Ukrainians in the 1932-33 Holodomor. A deliberate genocide by forcibly taking all the food from vast areas of Ukraine. My wife's family only survived where they kept bees and the bee hives weren't confiscated and they has a cherry orchard. They couldn't risk eating the cherries and so they eat the cherry tree leaves with honey. Many people died in their village along with adjacent cities, towns and villages.

In WWII in a process of extermination by both the Nazis and Soviets in Ukraine there were 1.4m military deaths including, my wife's granddad in 1944 where he served in the Red Army. 7m civilian deaths murdered by both side including 0.5m Jews killed by the Nazis.

I think the difference is Rod that the Soviets were a very important part of the Allied forces that defeated the Nazis.  The Soviets were the victors, and so would not be put on trial as the Nazis were at Nuremberg, and infact were a vital element of the prosecution.  With Stalin very much in power there was no chance of the West even starting to consider Soviet war crimes. There was no appetite for that, and then of course came the Cold War anyway.  Stalin died in 1953, the year I was born, and the Soviet system remained intact under new leaders until the CCCP was dissolved in 1991. There was little chance then of bringing about any justice for the millions murdered by the Soviets during WW2, or later.

Now, in the West, as you have correctly stated, we are in a situation again of having an almost politically closed situation with Putin, who I am sure would not assist with any move to bring war crimes to book.  Indeed, as with the Nazis, there are few Soviets alive now who could be held culpable for any crimes.  It is not going to happen, and now, regretfully, must be filed in history, but used as a record of what humans can do to each other and as a warning for the future.

...and be ignored as is felt convenient by the the rest of the world. Witness the Balkans, Syria, Yemen... need I go on?

On going are Putin's war crimes in Chechnya (with Kadyrov), Ukraine and Syria (with Assad) and crimes against his own population in Russia including the Moscow apartment bombings.

Yes, but what can we do about that in the West?

Intervention? Well, we have got that so right in the Middle East, and no doubt with Putin it would make war certain

[Rods2]

What we are doing, sanctions is the only practical politically acceptable solution. The latest round in February from Congress has got the Kremlin and the Oligarchs in a panic as it is aimed at targeting Putin's inner circle and their families which will include freezing any assets held in the West. Putin targeting the presidential election was about getting his 'asset' in the White House and getting him to lift sanctions. It hasn't worked out like that where as usual for the Kremlin effective tactics and a disastrous strategy. They needed a competent president not a useless buffoon who doesn't know how to play the Washington political system and which order to pull the political levers under his control.

Putin along with his inner circle have all moved considerable wealth off shore as a safety net. All those below Putin only effectively lease their wealth while they make Putin the guardian of their soul and are at his beck and call. Too much stealing, too much incompetence in your job or any disloyalty will result in your dismissal or much worse, some have been jailed others have had 'accidents', 'fatal heart attacks' or 'committed suicide'. The assets then return to Putin who uses them with new appointments of new responsibilities his inner circle take on. 113 'own' 83% of Russian wealth with Putin's estimated at $200bn.

[Lizzie Zoom]

What we are doing, sanctions is the only practical politically acceptable solution. The latest round in February from Congress has got the Kremlin and the Oligarchs in a panic as it is aimed at targeting Putin's inner circle and their families which will include freezing any assets held in the West. Putin targeting the presidential election was about getting his 'asset' in the White House and getting him to lift sanctions. It hasn't worked out like that where as usual for the Kremlin effective tactics and a disastrous strategy. They needed a competent president not a useless buffoon who doesn't know how to play the Washington political system and which order to pull the political levers under his control.

Putin along with his inner circle have all moved considerable wealth off shore as a safety net. All those below Putin only effectively lease their wealth while they make Putin the guardian of their soul and are at his beck and call. Too much stealing, too much incompetence in your job or any disloyalty will result in your dismissal or much worse, some have been jailed others have had 'accidents', 'fatal heart attacks' or 'committed suicide'. The assets then return to Putin who uses them with new appointments of new responsibilities his inner circle take on. 113 'own' 83% of Russian wealth with Putin's estimated at $200bn.

Ok, but they do not seem to be working in so far as we are no nearer to solving the real issue; making Russia a truly democratic state.

Well before the USSR fell I was predicting that the only change to what was an awesome entity would come from within, as all Empires collapse inwards as democracy and financially reality eats into the monster.  With Putin still successfully banning any opposition, with even the Leader of the Opposition in Russia arrested briefly for protesting on the streets, or just being who he is and what he represents, there seems to still be the constant struggle to bring any change internally to their political system. When that happens we can all breath a sigh of relief as finally the old Soviet system, which Putin as as an ex-KGB operative represents and still promotes in reality, will finally die. I fear that the West has some way to go before we see the final change within Russia, no matter what so called "sanctions" we line up against the current regime.  We do not want war, so we will have to be (very) patient.

[Rods2]

Totally disagree as sanctions are working a well as can be expected, hence Putin barring from standing all opposition candidates apart from the 'official opposition' Patsy and the limited appeal of the Communist candidate. To still make himself look popular, expect vote stuffing on an epic scale in March.

You make the same mistake as many people thinking sanctions are a sprint. They were imposed last week and nothing has changed this week, so they can't be working. It is a long term marathon like causing the fall of the Soviet Union which Reagan finally brought about and was a 25 year US project! Putin's backup state fund has run out and has had to appropriate the reserve state pension fund to cover state deficits that is on target to run out in 2019. Gazprom used to sell gas at a premium where supply and demand were closely matched, but due to a glut from US fracking and the US law change to allow exports they are now the cheapest major supplier as they try to regain market share. After a 2 year recession and rising state deficit they are on target to obtain 1-2% GDP growth this year, but with more sanctions due from the US in 2018 this is not guaranteed.

It is very unlikely that Russia will ever be a democracy in our lifetimes as for a revolution to succeed in any meaningful way the old state apparatus has to be replaced whereas post-1991 the state security system is still essentially the same as during Soviet times and has actually been considerably increased and made more intrusive by Putin. You can expect him to probably stand down in 2024, but he will name his successor like Yeltsin named Putin on the basis of guaranteed legal immunity.

[Lizzie Zoom]

Totally disagree as sanctions are working a well as can be expected, hence Putin barring from standing all opposition candidates apart from the 'official opposition' Patsy and the limited appeal of the Communist candidate. To still make himself look popular, expect vote stuffing on an epic scale in March.

You make the same mistake as many people thinking sanctions are a sprint. They were imposed last week and nothing has changed this week, so they can't be working. It is a long term marathon like causing the fall of the Soviet Union which Reagan finally brought about and was a 25 year US project! Putin's backup state fund has run out and has had to appropriate the reserve state pension fund to cover state deficits that is on target to run out in 2019. Gazprom used to sell gas at a premium where supply and demand were closely matched, but due to a glut from US fracking and the US law change to allow exports they are now the cheapest major supplier as they try to regain market share. After a 2 year recession and rising state deficit they are on target to obtain 1-2% GDP growth this year, but with more sanctions due from the US in 2018 this is not guaranteed.

It is very unlikely that Russia will ever be a democracy in our lifetimes as for a revolution to succeed in any meaningful way the old state apparatus has to be replaced whereas post-1991 the state security system is still essentially the same as during Soviet times and has actually been considerably increased and made more intrusive by Putin. You can expect him to probably stand down in 2024, but he will name his successor like Yeltsin named Putin on the basis of guaranteed legal immunity.

No, as I recognise that in fact they take an eternity to work and that is the problem with them.

In modern history sanctions, or blockades, have not stopped the element that they were meant to.  During the First World War the Royal Navy had a blockade functioning in 1914 on Germany, but Germany continued to wage war as they found a few ways around what the British were trying to achieve.  It was only in late 1916 that the German populous started to really suffer from great starvation, but the troops continued to be well fed. Post the Armistice of 1918 the Royal Navy continued their blockade under after the Versailles Treaty of 1919.  But overall the German war effort was not affected by the sanctions until it was all too late.

During WW2 the Germans tried, almost very successfully, to stop essential supplies to Great Britain by sending Atlantic conveys to the bottom of the sea, but the British fought back.  It was a close run thing, as Churchill would later publicly recall, but still WW2 went on to the Allied victory.

The USA implemented sanctions on Cuba in 1961/62, and they have continued to date.  Even the Obama policy of winding back these sanctions has been stopped by Trump, with new harsher measures being implemented.  There is no doubt the populous of Cuba has suffered over the decades, and increasingly so over the last 30 years, but the Cuban Communist regime continues on it's merry way with no sign yet of any capitulation, despite the demise of Castro in 2016. 

China, Iran, and of course recently North Korea are also countries that have had sanctions over the decades applied to them, but apart from the dreadful effects on their people, the political status quo has survived.  This is the same with Russia; a country that is large enough and has the military and political clout to get around any sanctions that would effect Putin and his political establishment.  No, once more it will be the people of Russia that will suffer whilst Putin does what he wants, and may well create a war situation as he did in the Crimea and Ukraine

As you can tell me Rod, Putin has to date: Intervened in Ukraine and annexation of Crimea.
                                                              Invaded Georgia and the Caucasus.
                                                              Intervened in Moldova, Baltic states and Scandinavia

Once more, sanctions will be so slow as to be virtually ineffective with a leader like Putin, as they would have been against Hitler, as these monsters always find ways around them and will achieve their political and/or military objectives until war stops them.

International Law, as most of us know, is toothless and cannot stop anything without the key military player in NATO, the USA, becoming involved.  But now I would not guarantee the USA under "Put America First" Trump will want to involve themselves in any European conflict.

No, with sanctions I do not hold my breath.........

[Rods2]

If you want a quick solution that takes 3-10 minutes to carry out and the winners, most likely Russia, China & DPRK will win as they have better civil defenses and it will involve killing 20-40% of the global population with a massive exchange of instant sunshine and the making lots of glass. Personally, I prefer the slow burn of sanctions, especially as I care about my children and grand children having long happy lives, but each to their own.

The RN blockade of Germany pushed up the cost of raw materials to them and in 1918 after the failure of the German Ludendorff Offensive it was a year of allied victories and finally German economic failure force them to seek an amnesty.

In WWII the invasion of North Africa would not have happened in November 1942 without decreasing U-boat attacks. September and October 1942 U-boat heavy losses and decreasing attacks on convoys started to rapidly turn the tide in the Atlantic so D-Day planning and execution was then possible. The U-Boats undoubtedly lengthen WWII but once the US entered the war with their massive resources and production capacity the defeat of Germany and Japan was inevitable.

Where you don't think sanctions work how is the Soviet empire of Eastern European countries going? Oh yes, they lost them due to the collapse of their empire. When Putin's empire collapses and he needs a bailout from Western countries, what do you think the terms will be on with Chechnya, Georgia and Ukraine along with several other suppressed independence movements like in Siberia?

If you knew anything about modern geopolitics you would understand why Putin is trying so hard to get sanctions removed, why he threw the US election to make Trump POTUS, why the June 2016 collusion meeting is so significant and why Bill Browder is a Putin's nightmare, but as you don't you won't.

[Lizzie Zoom]

If you want a quick solution that takes 3-10 minutes to carry out and the winners, most likely Russia, China & DPRK will win as they have better civil defenses and it will involve killing 20-40% of the global population with a massive exchange of instant sunshine and the making lots of glass. Personally, I prefer the slow burn of sanctions, especially as I care about my children and grand children having long happy lives, but each to their own.

The RN blockade of Germany pushed up the cost of raw materials to them and in 1918 after the failure of the German Ludendorff Offensive it was a year of allied victories and finally German economic failure force them to seek an amnesty.

In WWII the invasion of North Africa would not have happened in November 1942 without decreasing U-boat attacks. September and October 1942 U-boat heavy losses and decreasing attacks on convoys started to rapidly turn the tide in the Atlantic so D-Day planning and execution was then possible. The U-Boats undoubtedly lengthen WWII but once the US entered the war with their massive resources and production capacity the defeat of Germany and Japan was inevitable.

Where you don't think sanctions work how is the Soviet empire of Eastern European countries going? Oh yes, they lost them due to the collapse of their empire. When Putin's empire collapses and he needs a bailout from Western countries, what do you think the terms will be on with Chechnya, Georgia and Ukraine along with several other suppressed independence movements like in Siberia?

If you knew anything about modern geopolitics you would understand why Putin is trying so hard to get sanctions removed, why he threw the US election to make Trump POTUS, why the June 2016 collusion meeting is so significant and why Bill Browder is a Putin's nightmare, but as you don't you won't.

That is a crass comment and shows you don't understand anything but your point of view.  I certainly don't want war, and all I was doing was challenging your continual speel about "sanctions" being the answer, when my argument was and is they take too long to work.

WW1 was won by the Allies after the USA came into the conflict, and the Germans realised after the massive push of the Llundendorff offensive was pushed back, and their army, tired and exhausted, that they could not win and the sensible thing for them to do was to seek an Armistice. But, Germany never surrendered and marched their army, fully armed, back to Berlin with honour, a fact later used to argue that Germany had been "robbed" and should have maintained the war. Sanctions, although as I stated heavily hurt the civilian population, did not stop the German army from fighting.

With WW2 you state all the facts, which to any historian are obvious, but the message I was originally imparting was, yet again, there are always ways and means around "sanctions" or "blockades", which in the case of the Atlantic conveys could have had far greater effect if the full military will of Karl Donitz had been given creadence by Hitler early in late 1940, early 1941 before America came into the war in December of that year. At that point the German Atlantic "blockade" of a type was going to fail.

You don't reply to my point about Cuba, but never mind I have made my point that "sanctions" do not, and will not, resolve any issues with Russia.  It was you who emphasised how the West must stop Putin, but how?  You can continue to type pages of words, but like the UN you or them have no real plan to do so.  There are so many conflicting policies around the nations, with a large number of political interests and alliances, it will be difficult (but not impossible) to do so. This should be the great big red flag of warning to all World leaders, as we know WW1 started due to a similar political en-pass, with the diplomats, like Britains Sir Edward Grey, failing to get the nations to find diplomatic solutions.  Now I am NOT saying the current situation in Europe around the Balkans and the Middle East with Turkey is the same as in 1914, but the dangers of falling into a political trap, with a very serious military conflict, is there none the less.

Now I certainly will not pretend to have any answers to what has become a very delicate political situation, but I just prey that some presently unknown great leader rises up and provides a map of how we are going to PEACEFULLY progress to a lasting settlement throughout the endangered aforementioned areas of Eastern Europe and into the Middle East.

[ronnyd]

Getting far to heavy for me.

[Varche]

Pray for a great leader presently unknown to facilitate peace? Good luck with that.

Think we will have a long wait. Man is too intransigent to live in peace with one another. How many physical wars are going on right now across the planet.? 10 ? 20.? Then you have the intelectual wars, cyber wars, manipulation ofelection outcomes

[Shackeng]

en-pass

'impasse' perhaps?