Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[tunnie]

Thinking long term options here, can't exactly do it for a year or two. But what would be the costs in:

* Removing a conservatory.
* Converting a single garage into a kitchen (*note no feeds here for gas, so might have to go leccy only, as current kitchen is at other end of the house)
     - Garage is single brick, pitched roof, no insulation, attached to house but part way along house and extends past the house into the garden. (one side of current conservatory is the garage wall)
* Re-build single extension where conservatory was, with couple of roof windows. Approx 4 meters out from house (we are detached), so tad bigger than current conservatory and approx 8-10 meters wide. (width of town house)
     - I would want to knock through from new extension into the garage, to create open plan kitchen/dining area.
* Rip out old kitchen at the front of the house and make safe for second reception room.

----------------

Note that I could not do one single part of this myself, nor do I have contracts in the trade. So would be looking at full retail price for this. 

Given costs some have paid for extensions in the area, I've heard costs ranging from 20-45k for a simple 3 meter extension.

So would I be looking at £75k+? 

[aaronjb]

The kitchen cost will vary considerably depending on the spec of kitchen you want fitted, I'd guess.. but my uneducated guess would be quotes in the £50k region, at least.

I had quotes of £15-25k for a simple brick double garage, a few years ago..

[tunnie]

The kitchen cost will vary considerably depending on the spec of kitchen you want fitted, I'd guess.. but my uneducated guess would be quotes in the £50k region, at least.

I had quotes of £15-25k for a simple brick double garage, a few years ago..

Yeah, we could re-use some bits, like the built in fridge/freezer, oven but these would be very minor bits.

[Bigron]

Not wanting to volunteer anybody, but if EssexBi :-\gAl is listening.....

Ron.

[Bigron]

Sorry, I typo-ed big timein the graphic for EssexBigAl 

Ron.

[Lincs Robert]

We had one done at our last house & like you I asked around for advice. So, I'll pass that onto you as my opinion ......

If you are serious then get an architect involved. Initially for a chat - which should be free. He can give an outline of what is & isn't possible/permitted etc. I'd imagine that you will need planning, but even if not then having a proper set of plans drawn up is invaluable - especially if you then use them to get quotes for the job.

I agreed a fee with mine for the plans/getting planning approved and then selecting the builder. Architects know of builders.

I'm glad we did this as there was a dispute with the builder which we eventually "won" due to the dialogue/paper trail between the architect & builder. We eventually sacked the builder at a certain stage and finished the job ourselves overseeing plasterers/carpenters/electricians etc.

It's a stressful time for everyone, my youngest was 18 at the time and the other two had left home already - but having a bolt-hole to escape to will be very useful with young children. It can also stress any relationship with neighbours- which may or may not be an issue for you.

Finally, dust is a fact of life during such a project.

HTH

[Gaffers]

I have been investigating my own extension - 4m single storey out the back of the house in to the garden.  I have no doubt that I would be quoted about 45-50k for this by a professional company so about 60k once they fudge the final figure update their estimate as they go along.

I sat down and costed it with my father who has just completed a 2 sided 2 storey extension on a house in London and if I Project-managed it myself and used a bricky mate (local to us both) and did a few of the easier jobs myself it would come in at about 12-15k including the full width concertina door at the far end of the room (on to the garden)

You dont have to do the work yourself, just get the experts in to do the difficult bits of parts which are best suited to those with the necessary skills

[tunnie]

We had one done at our last house & like you I asked around for advice. So, I'll pass that onto you as my opinion ......

If you are serious then get an architect involved. Initially for a chat - which should be free. He can give an outline of what is & isn't possible/permitted etc. I'd imagine that you will need planning, but even if not then having a proper set of plans drawn up is invaluable - especially if you then use them to get quotes for the job.

I agreed a fee with mine for the plans/getting planning approved and then selecting the builder. Architects know of builders.

I'm glad we did this as there was a dispute with the builder which we eventually "won" due to the dialogue/paper trail between the architect & builder. We eventually sacked the builder at a certain stage and finished the job ourselves overseeing plasterers/carpenters/electricians etc.

It's a stressful time for everyone, my youngest was 18 at the time and the other two had left home already - but having a bolt-hole to escape to will be very useful with young children. It can also stress any relationship with neighbours- which may or may not be an issue for you.

Finally, dust is a fact of life during such a project.

HTH

Thanks. The 4m extension section should not need planning, but garage might do. 

I would get someone involved from start for plans, finding a decent builder would be biggest concern.

I have been investigating my own extension - 4m single storey out the back of the house in to the garden.  I have no doubt that I would be quoted about 45-50k for this by a professional company so about 60k once they fudge the final figure update their estimate as they go along.

I sat down and costed it with my father who has just completed a 2 sided 2 storey extension on a house in London and if I Project-managed it myself and used a bricky mate (local to us both) and did a few of the easier jobs myself it would come in at about 12-15k including the full width concertina door at the far end of the room (on to the garden)

You dont have to do the work yourself, just get the experts in to do the difficult bits of parts which are best suited to those with the necessary skills

See this is where costs are saved, no bricky mates here and zero time to project manage this. Would have to be someone to draw up plans and project manage it all end to end, which would wack up the costs.

[Kevin Wood]

Could we be witnessing the final stages of conversion to a true VAG driver?

Sufficiently disinterested, he finally converts his garage into a kitchen.

 

I must say, I'd be wary of converting too much space into living area at the expense of storage. 2 houses up our road have had every inch of space converted into accommodation, including loft and garage. One to accommodate a disabled family member on the ground floor - fair enough, and another to turn around quickly for a profit, I expect. The former must have been on the market for a year before it sold and the other has been on the market for a good 9 months.

Not sure Id be interested, but maybe I have more junk than most.

[tunnie]

Could we be witnessing the final stages of conversion to a true VAG driver?

Yeah, it does not need any work doing to it, it just works   

This is plan B, I can see in few years us moving to something bigger. Want bigger garden, bigger down stairs floor space.

But we love the location, we can walk into town and so many other things are within walking distance. But who knows with brexit? Chap in the close has his house on the market, watching that with interest. As if property market stalls, nothing sells/buys, making some big changes down stairs would work for us.

[tunnie]

I must say, I'd be wary of converting too much space into living area at the expense of storage. 2 houses up our road have had every inch of space converted into accommodation, including loft and garage. One to accommodate a disabled family member on the ground floor - fair enough, and another to turn around quickly for a profit, I expect. The former must have been on the market for a year before it sold and the other has been on the market for a good 9 months.

*Checks Zoopla, as Alton is a contender for next location 

[scimmy_man]

Im a BCO I shudder when someone says they will project manage a job, most people cant organise trades to arrive on time when materials are on site,
I recall one house where it was plastered as thats when they were booked in, BEFORE the first fix wires and plumbing were in, everything was surface mounted,

also you need a good grasp of how it all fits together.

[Sir Tigger KC]

......finding a decent builder would be biggest concern.

This is the tricky bit, especially if you're not on your home turf where you know all the builders/tradesmen, as you probably went to school with most of them! 

[TheBoy]

Is the garage separate or integral?

I'd suggest if separate, will need demolishing and new, more appropriate foundations.

I don't think you'll see ROI on it TBH...

[jonathanh]

I'd reckon at about £1k to £1.5 per sq m for the extension plus probably 5-10 for the garage conversion.  so around the 50k mark at a guess

as to planning, unless you've had permitted development rights removed then as long as you are extending your original house then you should be fine.  You can go further under extended pd ( 8m) if neighbours don't object.  as to the garage, the issue will be getting the insulation values up as much as anything. then it stuffs floor height and ceiling height.  Walls are not so bad to deal with

Beware architects recommending builders - there is usually some financial relationship between them at your expense.  far better to seek quotes and references.

if the extension is simple, draw plans yourself - you probably need more input to get building plan approval, but I'd look for support from an engineer as much as anyone else (my experience of architects is not good)

[tunnie]

Is the garage separate or integral?

I'd suggest if separate, will need demolishing and new, more appropriate foundations.

I don't think you'll see ROI on it TBH...

Garage not integral but connected to the house, it already mirrors the house for pitched roof. Not adding any weight, only insulating what's there. I'd be surprised if foundations need to be changed, I would need to seek specialist advice. Seen conversions on separate garages which did not need rebuilt. (Also linked to house, but not integral)

I'd reckon at about £1k to £1.5 per sq m for the extension plus probably 5-10 for the garage conversion.  so around the 50k mark at a guess

as to planning, unless you've had permitted development rights removed then as long as you are extending your original house then you should be fine.  You can go further under extended pd ( 8m) if neighbours don't object.  as to the garage, the issue will be getting the insulation values up as much as anything. then it stuffs floor height and ceiling height.  Walls are not so bad to deal with

Beware architects recommending builders - there is usually  some financial relationship between them at your expense.  far better to seek quotes and references.

if the extension is simple, draw plans yourself - you probably need more input to get building plan approval, but I'd look for support from an engineer as much as anyone else (my experience of architects is not good)

Thanks 

Yeah back handers to builders, but prof have to go with a complete solution type place.

[raywilb]

as being employed as a brickie I more or less finished off working for a joiner for the last 10yrs of my career whom specialized in doing small extensions that didn't need planning permission just building regs. mostly on old Victorian terrace houses. no drawings as such just build to whatever the client wanted. a start to finish job would take us 5 to 8wks. we got continuous jobs in the Holgate area of York where for about 2yrs we were stuck in 3 streets building extensions for different clients. it was good

[Marks DTM Calib]

Im a BCO I shudder when someone says they will project manage a job, most people cant organise trades to arrive on time when materials are on site,
I recall one house where it was plastered as thats when they were booked in, BEFORE the first fix wires and plumbing were in, everything was surface mounted,

also you need a good grasp of how it all fits together.

I am a PM and shudder when I see the work builders do (and I am sure you do at times to!) and the scheduling cockups they make.

[Marks DTM Calib]

So I have done a few extensions myself (as many will know) and to be honest, its not that hard but, you need to sit, plan and work through the stages of build so as to get sequencing and spend estimated to a reasonable level.

First you need some plans as to where you want to be when finished, I have both paid people to do these (Robin Hood in the case of the recent one) and also done them myself (really not that hard for a basic extension and plenty of guides telling you the scale and details required which is pretty minimal for planning).

If your paying somebody else to do the work then you will want full plans for the BC, if these are of a reasonable standard (again, many are pretty crap!) then they should help with tying down a builder to a better estimate (there can always be unknowns such as ground conditions requiring deeper footings etc.). If going for say a kitchen extension or bathroom (room with specific service requirements) get some plans made by a local supplier for these as it gives detail as to the optimum position for drains etc. and you can also adjust walls to get a better fit (its surprising what 100-200mm here and there can do!). Remember also that any structural items will need a structural engineers calcs.

Once you have this you can easily work out a build sequence.

What I personally hate is the way builders will cut every corner possible and do everything as quickly and easily as they can at every opportunity, a classic example is when removing external walls, they will use Ferfix (or similar) for the brick work interface rather than notching the existing brickwork which always gives thermal bridges and then allows corners to be cut by having piers for supporting steels rather than a flat continuous external wall.

Now the BCO will not see most of the bodges and bits as it will be hidden for final inspection and I am yet to see any extension build in recent years where you don't see 'naughties'

[Viral_Jim]

Is the garage separate or integral?

I'd suggest if separate, will need demolishing and new, more appropriate foundations.

I don't think you'll see ROI on it TBH...

Garage not integral but connected to the house, it already mirrors the house for pitched roof. Not adding any weight, only insulating what's there. I'd be surprised if foundations need to be changed, I would need to seek specialist advice. Seen conversions on separate garages which did not need rebuilt. (Also linked to house, but not integral)

Speaking to ROI, its worth bearing in mind that moving is not free, by the time you pay stamp, estate agents' fees, legal fees, moving costs etc, you will be comfortably the wrong side of £10k in a lot of cases. Which could get you a fair way towards your kitchen!

Regarding garage foundations, my thoughts would be that to satisfy building control you need insulation in the floor, so unless you have a step down into the garage, its likely you would have to dig out to accommodate this, or have steps up into the kitchen, which could in turn compromise ceiling height. Also, you will probably be building a wall across where the main door used to be. You will have to satisfy the BCO that the foundations under that piece of wall are sufficient to support it. Beyond that, nothing to add to what Mr Fuse has to say

[Marks DTM Calib]

Floor would need insulation (there is a requirement to step down into a garage for obvious reasons so often, unless detached, the floor is lower then the main accommodation), across the door are a number of options including an insulated timber wall (as no load above which the existing lintel would be taking) or even a full height window (maybe with plain panels at the base). Walls will be single skin (or 9 inch at best if supporting upper storey accommodation) so internal insulated stud work also required plus of course an insulated ceiling.

Lots of work to convert garages to the correct standard and they are rarely an ideal shape and size to be truly useful.

[Lizzie Zoom]

I just got an architect and a builder team together and they built mine back in the day!

[tunnie]

Thanks for all responses. 

I'll double check but I'm sure the garage floor is lower than the house floor. In fact as I type I know it is!

Regarding ROI, I estimate moving costs with stamp duty to be 20k approx.

[Viral_Jim]

Ah yes, just clocked your location.

Was thinking about stamp out here in the Northern Wastes

[tunnie]

Ah yes, just clocked your location.

Was thinking about stamp out here in the Northern Wastes

Yup. £15-20k just in stamps. Tax man must have a big collection of them. 

Factor in some quotes I've heard for £3-5k for a full pack and move service, as can't exactly move with a transit any more, then legal fee's, survey, etc. Could be looking at cracking £30k quite easily.

[STEMO]

Thanks for all responses. 

I'll double check but I'm sure the garage floor is lower than the house floor. In fact as I type I know it is!

Regarding ROI, I estimate moving costs with stamp duty to be 20k approx.

Of course the floor is lower. As Mark said, it's got to be to stop fumes and fuel getting into your home.

[TheBoy]

Speaking to ROI, its worth bearing in mind that moving is not free, by the time you pay stamp, estate agents' fees, legal fees, moving costs etc, you will be comfortably the wrong side of £10k in a lot of cases. Which could get you a fair way towards your kitchen!

I'm not disagreeing, but I'm guessing tunnie feels his current house is too small, dunno why, maybe being married to a good Catholic girl means a large family in on its way.  Now I've not been to his house, but would suggest that he may be able to make the downstairs more acceptable, the upstairs might start to feel cramped. Its not like there was lost space downstairs due to integral garage.

I also think future buyers will feel this as well, hence not adding significant value.  And the loss of a garage on a 4(?) bed house will definitely impact price.

If the house is simply too small, maybe it is worth putting the money towards moving.

On the other hand, it might be the perfect location, in the perfect neighbourhood, and for whatever reason the downstairs layout simply isn't working...  ...but given its a fairly modern house, the latter might be unusual.

[Doctor Gollum]

Thanks for all responses. 

I'll double check but I'm sure the garage floor is lower than the house floor. In fact as I type I know it is!

Regarding ROI, I estimate moving costs with stamp duty to be 20k approx.

Of course the floor is lower. As Mark said, it's got to be to stop fumes and fuel getting into your home.

Nlot to mention water... its below the dpc

[Doctor Gollum]

Also don't forget to factor in having one or two rugrats in tbe house while the work is done... noise/dust/general upheaval, not being able use the drive/disruption to neighbours etc...

If you want more garden, filling the existing space with an extension is a very false economy... as you'll have to sell with significantly reduced outside space,as suggested you'll not make any money on it as big family houses need outside space.

Buy a cheap 6x3m gazebo and put it where you want the extension. This will allow you to visualise just how much space you will lose.

In short, costs aren't always financial. Here's an example of what you could be looking at...

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-33503247.html

Probably a similar ballpark once you've built the extension,  then sold at a loss once you realise, the hard way, that the garden isn't large enough for two kids and you miss not having a garage.

[tunnie]

Speaking to ROI, its worth bearing in mind that moving is not free, by the time you pay stamp, estate agents' fees, legal fees, moving costs etc, you will be comfortably the wrong side of £10k in a lot of cases. Which could get you a fair way towards your kitchen!

I'm not disagreeing, but I'm guessing tunnie feels his current house is too small, dunno why, maybe being married to a good Catholic girl means a large family in on its way.  Now I've not been to his house, but would suggest that he may be able to make the downstairs more acceptable, the upstairs might start to feel cramped. Its not like there was lost space downstairs due to integral garage.

I also think future buyers will feel this as well, hence not adding significant value.  And the loss of a garage on a 4(?) bed house will definitely impact price.

If the house is simply too small, maybe it is worth putting the money towards moving.

On the other hand, it might be the perfect location, in the perfect neighbourhood, and for whatever reason the downstairs layout simply isn't working...  ...but given its a fairly modern house, the latter might be unusual.

Not so sure, there are 4&5 bed houses in our Close, which never came with a garage. Mine is however, the only one with a garage. One house in the Close is on the market currently, it's end of terrace, so not detached, no garage, less garden than me and yet it's on for 35% more than I paid for my house 3 years ago. If it sells at that price is another matter, hence watching that to see what happens. I am thinking of moving in 2-3 maybe even 4 years down the line, but just getting options together.

The house is in the perfect location, we can walk into town, within 10 mins, so much is on my doorstep. Today it was only 40 mins to work, don't really want to move much further out but for larger house that's what is required. What will impact things is schools, if we find we are in a good catchment area, it would mean staying. We can also walk to a couple of them, so no need to drive. MrsT also likes fact she can just walk everywhere, not have to drive for everything.

My old boss wanted to upgrade, but due to schools he could only look at houses on 2 streets, due to his requirements. 

So upgrading what we have is an option.

[aaronjb]

I wouldn't have bought this house if it didn't come with at least a double garage - the fact that it came with a double and a single were what sold it (to me); I wouldn't even consider a house without a garage.

I'm hopeful that people are finally coming back 'round to that way of thinking and will stop converting garages to play-rooms and the like.

To (mis) quote Nike: Just don't do it!

In reality it's your house and your money so you're entirely free to ignore anyone here and do what you like with your garage! I'm just worried that in 10 years time my only option for a house with a decent amount of workshop space is going to be to build my own or move to the middle of America/Australia/<insert other large sparsely populated countries here>

[tunnie]

Thing is I can see myself doing less and less DIY car work, to the point I do none. I had a requirement for a garage, much to MrsT's annoyance 

But now, the bike has gone, I'm struggling to find time for car DIY. I've had couple jobs on the to do list for several months now, when the 3.2 is replaced with a mummy bus of some sorts (Hurry up Fox deal!) - That will probably be dealer serviced. (Yes, yes I know) - I might do the odd air-filter change and such. But no more serious work   

[Doctor Gollum]

You've got much bigger issues then.

A garage is far more than somewhere to keep the car. But it's an argument you won't win unless you genuinely want to.

[Lincs Robert]

A cellar is useful, or would appear to be - mines full of junk 

[tunnie]

A cellar is useful, or would appear to be - mines full of junk 

I'd love a cellar, kit that out as a Cinema room 

Or if not suitable, storage lots of wine 

[Rods2]

A cellar is useful, or would appear to be - mines full of junk 

I'd love a cellar, kit that out as a Cinema room 

Or if not suitable, storage lots of wine 

A French friend of mine made a service pit in his garage with built-in wine racks either side. The pit has a wooden cover when not in use to keep it cool.

[Doctor Gollum]

Imaginative 

[aaronjb]

Then, when things are going badly in the garage (as they inevitably do at some point or other) - easy access to the libation of choice to ease the pain!

[YZ250]

.....
Lots of work to convert garages to the correct standard and they are rarely an ideal shape and size to be truly useful.

I feel the biggest problem here is that you are dealing with what you already have, NOT what you actually want, as you are restricted by what is already there. 

[pscocoa]

Tunnie - as regards your project and in terms of budget I think you have to decide what the main priority is.

If it is a kitchen then planning that at first is a must and you will be surprised how costs mount - there are all sorts of corners you can cut but if you want granite or quartz surfaces/upstands or high spec appliances or floor covering etc then you need a lot of detail plus round our way water softeners possibly. You have seen our kitchen and we decided on new electrics/consumer unit , renew plumbing etc.

If it is just more space and a modest kitchen then your budget maybe ok but if you are going through this upheaval then make sure the quality of kitchen is not something you regret afterwards.

[pscocoa]

Also my son did a big job on his kitchen as well taking half his double garage as a playroom and to extend kitchen - acrows all over the place. If you want details of his builder then pm me - but do not use his floor covering guy - cheaper quote than the guys we use, but a terrible job given to contractors who were in a rush. Luckily he had not paid the floor covering shop and he was able to deduct rectification work from a different contractor. A lot of grief on this. The plumber he used was a bit iffy but sort of ok.

[tunnie]

Also my son did a big job on his kitchen as well taking half his double garage as a playroom and to extend kitchen - acrows all over the place. If you want details of his builder then pm me.

Thanks, think I will. Sounds like my job would be similar, assume he was happy with all the main building work? - Is he local-ish?

Having a known and good builder is one of my biggest concerns.

Tunnie - as regards your project and in terms of budget I think you have to decide what the main priority is.

It's mainly to make the downstairs work better, MrsT likes and I do as well the idea of kitchen/dinner space. Having been up to the in-laws many times, they have a kitchen with large table in the middle, it works really well, the kitchen really is hub of the home. We want to replicate that as our family grows, but the question is do we have to move or can I do that here?

Need to balance what it could cost, vs benefit, vs moving, vs what schools are good. There is a lot to consider!

[Lincs Robert]

A cellar is useful, or would appear to be - mines full of junk 

I'd love a cellar, kit that out as a Cinema room 

Or if not suitable, storage lots of wine 

You wouldn't like my cellar for very long - don't think you could stand up in it. I'm 5 10 & have about half an inch clearance as I walk around.

[tunnie]

Brining this back, as I'm seriously considering this as an option now. Mortgage deal comes to an end this year, looking at current rates available, I could obtain a decent budget to do some work, while still paying the same per month I do now for a fixed 5 year period.

Looking to simply the work, a simple 3.5x4m extension. Bulldoze the conservatory and burn the bloody thing. Replace foundations for proper extension, re-use the doors/windows into conservatory currently and put on the end the extension. (they are external grade)

Any big difference between say single pitch roof e.g. leaning to one side only (not an A pitch) and a flat roof with one of those glass things on top to let in light?

Any ideas for cost? This would be under permitted development, so no planning. I also would need everything handled, with me only doing the painting. 

I've got a few builders locally I want to try for quotes, some recommended by here, others i've seen doing work locally.

[Varche]

Just a thought. Do used conservatories have a second hand value? I am guessing not if you keep the door. 

[Shackeng]

Is the garage conversion now off the table? If not, have you considered extending your existing gas supply externally to the new kitchen? This was done on my first extension for about 6 meters, although I subsequently moved it indoors, running it through two block walls and parallel to radiator pipes inside skirting boxes, all in 15mm pipe, but still plenty of pressure to operate the gas hob.

[tunnie]

had a re-think, the standard extension on the back while getting rid of the conservatory, would mean the door to garage would not be inside the house. Considering part conversation of garage, say 60% that door becomes entry into a proper conversion. (new floor/walls) to become a playroom.

Rest of the garage becomes storage for car tools.

But to be honest, I think I can only afford the standard 3.5x4m extension.

[Gaffers]

I have cancelled my extension plans, opting for a move to the US instead where I can get a house twice the size in a nice area of Chicago for 80% of the cost.  That said, depending on what happens it could be California (potentially Hell-A )

The only downsides will be dodging bullets, Trump supporters (some of which are family), constantly explaining that I am from the UK and not Australia, repeating the same conversation on Brexit with every person you meet who is dying to get the UK side of the debate, defending the NHS with every Republican and informing people that I do not know some random chap called 'John' from London you met on a cruise 15 years ago.

[Bigron]

Tee hee: when I was in America, apart from their temerity in saying that I hav an accent, I kept being asked if I knew the Queen personally! 

Ron.

[Kevin Wood]

... nice area of Chicago ....

Not sure if that's a thing...

I've seen the Blues Brothers, you know.

[Gaffers]

... nice area of Chicago ....

Not sure if that's a thing...

I've seen the Blues Brothers, you know.

Loop and north, diagonally heading NW from the center is quite nice.  Plenty of multi-million dollar mansions just north of the loop too.

[aaronjb]

Loop and north, diagonally heading NW from the center is quite nice.  Plenty of multi-million dollar mansions just north of the loop too.

Cripes, just how much is your house in the UK worth?

[Kevin Wood]

Loop and north, diagonally heading NW from the center is quite nice.  Plenty of multi-million dollar mansions just north of the loop too.

Cripes, just how much is your house in the UK worth?

It's not just a house. The collection of "priceless classics" abandoned around it is what makes it. 

[Gaffers]

Loop and north, diagonally heading NW from the center is quite nice.  Plenty of multi-million dollar mansions just north of the loop too.

Cripes, just how much is your house in the UK worth?

It's not just a house. The collection of "priceless classics" abandoned around it is what makes it. 

I'll not have you talk about Mrs G like that! 

[Shackeng]

And you can buy a cheap lookalike Omega there. https://www.autolist.com/cadillac-catera#make=Cadillac&model=Catera&buyer_intelligence=true&sort_new_cars_last=true&page=1&radius=any&location=Marlborough%2C+ENG&latitude=51.4167&longitude=-1.7167

[Kevin Wood]

And you can buy a cheap lookalike Omega there. https://www.autolist.com/cadillac-catera#make=Cadillac&model=Catera&buyer_intelligence=true&sort_new_cars_last=true&page=1&radius=any&location=Marlborough%2C+ENG&latitude=51.4167&longitude=-1.7167

If we'e talking Cadillac, I can't help thinking this would be more Guffer's style...

http://www.peachtreeclassiccars.com/view-classic-muscle-cars.php?cid=168

 

[Gaffers]

And you can buy a cheap lookalike Omega there. https://www.autolist.com/cadillac-catera#make=Cadillac&model=Catera&buyer_intelligence=true&sort_new_cars_last=true&page=1&radius=any&location=Marlborough%2C+ENG&latitude=51.4167&longitude=-1.7167

If we'e talking Cadillac, I can't help thinking this would be more Guffer's style...

http://www.peachtreeclassiccars.com/view-classic-muscle-cars.php?cid=168

 

As long as my nephew rides along with me

[Doctor Gollum]

Two Americans that you might like to acquaint yourself with; Dave Ramsey and Chris Hogan...

Incidentally, is the greater Chicago area for family convenience or economic reasons?

I only ask, as there are several states which are nicer/cheaper than Illinois... Although I conceded that the Great Lakes hold a certain appeal and there's also a lot to be said for being able to jump on the Great Loop when autumn arrives

[Gaffers]

To avoid a further hijack of this thread I have started my own here:  http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=141900