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Author Topic: Complete brake failure!!  (Read 5789 times)

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Andy B

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Re: Complete brake failure!!
« Reply #30 on: 29 December 2013, 23:12:12 »

Nah I'll buy new, get good discount on most things from Vx with the trade card, failing that I get trade at a few motor factors. And Halfords  ;D

I doubt that many motor factor will hold stock of a part for a 10 yr old car ....... & I'd be interested to know how much the dealers will charge. I know they (the dealers) don't do seal kits for them.
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chrisgixer

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Re: Complete brake failure!!
« Reply #31 on: 29 December 2013, 23:15:48 »

Would brake fluid in the servo eat the rubber bladder/components? :-\
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Andy B

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Re: Complete brake failure!!
« Reply #32 on: 29 December 2013, 23:18:59 »

Would brake fluid in the servo eat the rubber bladder/components? :-\

Possibly  :-\
I seem to remember being recommended to replace master cylinder complete with a servo ....... it was a long time ago now & I can't remember why.
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chrisgixer

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Re: Complete brake failure!!
« Reply #33 on: 29 December 2013, 23:26:03 »

Would brake fluid in the servo eat the rubber bladder/components? :-\

Possibly  :-\
I seem to remember being recommended to replace master cylinder complete with a servo ....... it was a long time ago now & I can't remember why.

I'd hope they'd design in some oil/bf proof components given the possible failures. But I'm not sure I could trust it personally.


I must say though, at the first sign of a sinking pedal, I'd be checking for faults pretty sharpish. :o

Anyway, we're surmising until Paul reports back the fault.
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Andy B

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Re: Complete brake failure!!
« Reply #34 on: 29 December 2013, 23:32:08 »

....
I must say though, at the first sign of a sinking pedal,  ....

In the same situation 30 yrs ago in my MKIII Cortina, my first thoughts were ............. OH opps!!!!! and then reached for the handbrake.  ;D ;D ;D ;D Fortunately I was only going slowly.  ;)
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chrisgixer

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Re: Complete brake failure!!
« Reply #35 on: 29 December 2013, 23:35:08 »

Oh that old thing, is there any point on an auto? Think I'd be too busy crapping me pants tbh ;D
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terry paget

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Re: Complete brake failure!!
« Reply #36 on: 30 December 2013, 08:45:54 »

Interesting thread. I don't understand how Paul got 5% braking with no fluid. If I had lost all my fluid and could not see the leak, I would have put in more fluid and  waited to see it emerge somewhere. I have known steel pipes rust through with pinholes and slowly lose fluid. But, as Al said, clutch should fail first, and fluid level warning light come on. Did the light come on, Paul?

I have known brake failure; master cylinder seal failure (Vw Passat), rear cylinder popping out (Peugeot 505) and copper brake pipe fracture (Omega); also slow fuel loss from pinhole in steel pipe, Peugeot 505 again.

Not sure if the clutch would fail; fluid in the vertical pipe might suffice to operate  clutch.
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05omegav6

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Re: Complete brake failure!!
« Reply #37 on: 30 December 2013, 09:12:30 »

Had fluid loss on my Seat, caused by clutch slave failure, similar set up to the Omega. Once the fluid dropped below the clutch feed the pedal simply fell to the floor :o

Have also experienced vacuum/fuel pump failure on a 1.9tdi Superb, that made the brakes almost non existent, temporarily cured by adding oil to the vac line from the servo to the pump :-X
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Andy B

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Re: Complete brake failure!!
« Reply #38 on: 30 December 2013, 09:23:41 »

There are baffles in the master cylinder to retain fluid in the various sections of the brakes ie split (front/rear) brakes system likewise with the clutch. Not sure how there's a complete loss of fluid  :-\
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Shackeng

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Re: Complete brake failure!!
« Reply #39 on: 30 December 2013, 09:33:27 »

Interesting thread. I don't understand how Paul got 5% braking with no fluid. If I had lost all my fluid and could not see the leak, I would have put in more fluid and  waited to see it emerge somewhere. I have known steel pipes rust through with pinholes and slowly lose fluid. But, as Al said, clutch should fail first, and fluid level warning light come on. Did the light come on, Paul?

I have known brake failure; master cylinder seal failure (Vw Passat), rear cylinder popping out (Peugeot 505) and copper brake pipe fracture (Omega); also slow fuel loss from pinhole in steel pipe, Peugeot 505 again.

Not sure if the clutch would fail; fluid in the vertical pipe might suffice to operate  clutch.

This is what I could not follow, unless the warning system is fubar. ???
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05omegav6

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Re: Complete brake failure!!
« Reply #40 on: 30 December 2013, 11:23:52 »

There are baffles in the master cylinder to retain fluid in the various sections of the brakes ie split (front/rear) brakes system likewise with the clutch. Not sure how there's a complete loss of fluid  :-\
Clutch is fed straight from the reservoir by way of the spigot on the side of it, manual and auto using the same reservoir  :y
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Andy B

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Re: Complete brake failure!!
« Reply #41 on: 30 December 2013, 13:15:40 »

There are baffles in the master cylinder to retain fluid in the various sections of the brakes ie split (front/rear) brakes system likewise with the clutch. Not sure how there's a complete loss of fluid  :-\
Clutch is fed straight from the reservoir by way of the spigot on the side of it, manual and auto using the same reservoir  :y

I know. But it would be a crap design if a failed clutch slave cylinder caused a complete brake failure. There's a baffle inside the reservoir such that if the slave leaks you still maintain a brake fluid level for the brakes and as above a leak on front or back of the brakes maintains a fluid level for the remaining half of the brake system ie split braking system.
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Andy H

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Re: Complete brake failure!!
« Reply #42 on: 30 December 2013, 14:09:37 »

The spigot is about 1/3 up the side so a faulty clutch still leaves 1/3 in the rear compartment. The baffle is higher again so the front compartment should remain about 1/2 full.

The dual circuit master cylinder usually has two pistons, the first one is connected to the brake pedal via the servo. The second one is further down the bore of the cylinder. Pressing the pedal pushes the first piston which forces brake fluid down one set of brake pipes but also makes the second piston move and feed the second circuit.

If the seals on the first piston fail then the pedal will go half way to the floor before the piston makes contact with the second (floating) piston to give some braking from the second circuit.

If the seals on the second piston fail you won't really notice any difference unless or until the seals fail on the first piston and you need the second piston to save you. :(

I think this is what happened to Paul - the floating piston seals were probably just good enough to stop the car once but not enough to stop the fluid leaking between circuits.
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Marks DTM Calib

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Re: Complete brake failure!!
« Reply #43 on: 30 December 2013, 15:43:03 »

So time for some facts and reality.

1) the clutch take off is high up the side of the rest so failures there won't impact the brakes

2) its a twin circuit so master cylinder failure should only affect a pair of brakes, similar if it was an external seal failure
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05omegav6

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Re: Complete brake failure!!
« Reply #44 on: 30 December 2013, 16:21:40 »

So time for some facts and reality.

1) the clutch take off is high up the side of the rest so failures there won't impact the brakes

2) its a twin circuit so master cylinder failure should only affect a pair of brakes, similar if it was an external seal failure

But fluid loss should result in clutch failure before brake failure if fluid loss is the issue
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