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[Doctor Gollum]

You would have had to have been criminally stupid to believe what was written on either side of either bus...

Ahem.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/vote-leave-brexit-lies-eu-pay-money-remain-poll-boris-johnson-a8603646.html

Incase you CBA to brave the ads...

Nearly half of the British public still believe the false claim from the Brexit referendum that the UK sends £350m a week to the EU, despite persistent attempts to debunk the myth.

A new study by King’s College London of attitudes to Brexit found that 42 per cent of people who had heard of the claim still believe it is true, while just 36 per cent thought it was false and 22 per cent were unsure.

The research, conducted with the help of pollster Ipsos MORI, shows that sustained criticism of the false claim by the UK Statistics Authority and others has had little effect, with perceptions mostly unchanged since before the referendum.

And who paid for that survey...

[Varche]

Jimmy. That article doesn't actually say what the actual figure is.

If we don't net pay the EU anything each week, why have we negotiated to pay 39 billion as a severance.? What is that ? 39 million weeks worth?

Just where is all the money coming from that countries that receive more than they contribute come from? The EU money tree I guess.

On the subject of pensions and benefits. Havent we all been screwed over by companies saving money or trying to meet pension commitments that were made in the years of plenty.? I just cashed in a £7000 share ISA which is now worth £2,300.  The only people well remunerated are the company bosses who have increased the differential to workers nicely.

[Doctor Gollum]

Most previously generous pension schemes have switched from Defined Benefit to Defined Contribution with minimal contribution matching, particularly in sectors that were previously publicly owned... The global recession didn't help matters any.

Brexit deal or not, the most nervous will be those up to their eyeballs in mortgages, commercial and consumer debt. For these people the status quo has to be a pretty comfortable safety blanket            

[Sir Tigger KC]

A view of the BREXIT situation from the leader of Germany's AfD, a party variously described by the UK MSM as 'far right', 'Populist' and the like. They have 94 seats in the Bundestag out of a total of 598.

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63IcW4eo4uM

[TheBoy]

And your pension fund has been decimated as a result of successive rehashes following privatisation rather than Brexit.

That's a bold statement for somebody who, hopefully, doesn't have access to any of my pensions.

Let me assure the honourable gentleman that I've been watching my (non DB) pensions closely since having to take out the first DC one, so have a pretty good handle the recession dips and the (distant memory) boom bumps.  The longest standing DC one has had a double dip in the last near 3 years, a significant one at the referendum result, and a constant slide since the May deal outcome was looking unlikely.  Its probably around a 6 figure loss, on a pot that's not that big anyway.


That, to me, is decimated. And all Brexit (or economy problems related to Brexit) related.

[TheBoy]

If we don't net pay the EU anything each week, why have we negotiated to pay 39 billion as a severance.? What is that ? 39 million weeks worth?

Don't forget that the UK also takes money from the EU money tree, and some of that £39b will be to repay some of the projects already committed in the UK.

But we do pay in more than we take out.  But that surplus will likely not cover what we will have to do for ourselves instead of the EU doing.  Globalisation has happened, and cannot be reverted.  Thus you need to grasp how it works, how it allows OUR economy to work, and what a global insignificance we are in the global world without being allied to another group of countries.  Whether that is Europe, or the 51st state, is potentially immaterial, other than one is workable, t'other probably isn't.

[STEMO]

As one of our members eloquently put it...'We are f**ked'. But, I believe, we are f**ked because we cannot agree on what leaving entails. Stay or fully leave were the only two alternatives that could have worked, and I think that's what the public were under the impression they were voting for. We can blame the idiots who voted leave, if we want to see it that way, but I blame the politicians for not implementing the will of the majority of the people, whether they agreed with it or not. That is, after all, their job.

[Varche]

And your pension fund has been decimated as a result of successive rehashes following privatisation rather than Brexit.

That's a bold statement for somebody who, hopefully, doesn't have access to any of my pensions.

Let me assure the honourable gentleman that I've been watching my (non DB) pensions closely since having to take out the first DC one, so have a pretty good handle the recession dips and the (distant memory) boom bumps.  The longest standing DC one has had a double dip in the last near 3 years, a significant one at the referendum result, and a constant slide since the May deal outcome was looking unlikely.  Its probably around a 6 figure loss, on a pot that's not that big anyway.


That, to me, is decimated. And all Brexit (or economy problems related to Brexit) related.

You cannot lay all of that at the leave door. A lot of the UK market slump has been manufactured directly by the remain establishment.  Project Fear for one. If you want a hate figurehead you could do well to look at mark carney who has done the Uk economy a lot of damage by declaring this a disaster or that a disaster when time has shown it to be otherwise. Don't forget that apart from the vote result very little else changed in the economy which is doing alright. I say all this by the way as an expat that has seen his UK derived income slashed by millions by the manufactured slump in the pound agin the euro.  Didn't people take a massive hit on pension pots during the 2009 slump or back in the 1990's?  maybe we should ask the George Soros's for our money back?!

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

As one of our members eloquently put it...'We are f**ked'. But, I believe, we are f**ked because we cannot agree on what leaving entails. Stay or fully leave were the only two alternatives that could have worked, and I think that's what the public were under the impression they were voting for. We can blame the idiots who voted leave, if we want to see it that way, but I blame the politicians for not implementing the will of the majority of the people, whether they agreed with it or not. That is, after all, their job.

The choice may be a ' May Brino '........or if parliament find a majority for the single market and customs union.......'Brino lite

Proper full fat brexit is dead in the water.

[Varche]

As one of our members eloquently put it...'We are f**ked'. But, I believe, we are f**ked because we cannot agree on what leaving entails. Stay or fully leave were the only two alternatives that could have worked, and I think that's what the public were under the impression they were voting for. We can blame the idiots who voted leave, if we want to see it that way, but I blame the politicians for not implementing the will of the majority of the people, whether they agreed with it or not. That is, after all, their job.

Well said. It is ironic that we are now potentially heading for a no deal exit which no one countenanced. If we had had a committed leaver in charge of negotiations and he/she had said right we will leave on no deal unless we get a comprehensive deal including trade and divorce bill sorted out within 18 months, things would have been different including the market data and exchange rate. I watched Sophy Ridge this morning and the politicians still do not get it. How many more meaningful or indicative votes can they have on May's dead duck. It is all a self agrandsiment power struggle with the fate of the country a very distant consideration. 

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

As a remainer I would rather we remain, or leave with no deal.

Leaving without a ' proper brexit ' will create more problems than it will solve.

Theresa has often repeated the mantra  brexit means brexit. Clearly this is not so.

Her other mantra ' no deal is better than a bad deal ' seems to be out of favour.

[Doctor Gollum]

As one of our members eloquently put it...'We are f**ked'. But, I believe, we are f**ked because we cannot agree on what leaving entails. Stay or fully leave were the only two alternatives that could have worked, and I think that's what the public were under the impression they were voting for. We can blame the idiots who voted leave, if we want to see it that way, but I blame the politicians for not implementing the will of the majority of the people, whether they agreed with it or not. That is, after all, their job.

Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?

Seems pretty clear cut.

Which does rather beg the question as to what our elected think they are playing at

[Sir Tigger KC]

As a remainer I would rather we remain, or leave with no deal.

Leaving without a ' proper brexit ' will create more problems than it will solve.

Theresa has often repeated the mantra  brexit means brexit. Clearly this is not so.

Her other mantra ' no deal is better than a bad deal ' seems to be out of favour.

As a leaver I agree with this, although with the caveat that we shouldn't leave with Barniers Withdrawal Agreement & Political Declaration as it is truly dreadful.

I havn't read the whole 500 odd pages, but I cannot believe some of the things that May and her officials have signed up to.  For example, it is there in black and white that it is the sole responsibility of the UK to find a solution to the Irish border and of course there is no onus on the EU to accept any solutions put forward.  Anyone with half a brain can see that the EU will deliberately reject any solutions, good, bad or even brilliant, so that they can drive us up the cul de sac of the backstop, and there we will remain at the EU's pleasure so that they can carry on selling stuff into the UK without let or hindrance. 

The Political Declaration which apparently isn't legally binding, but will nevertheless form the basis of the future deal, provides for the extradition of people for political crimes and agrees to waive the principal of Double Criminality, which is a basic plank of international extradition law.  For example, most countries will not extradite if the crime committed in the other country, is not a crime in the country the person is to be extradited from.  So why have they agreed to waive it?  I find this rather sinister and wonder what they are planning in Brussels?    A raft of new laws prohibiting criticism of the EU or activating against it? 

We should all, Leave or Remain, be totally opposed to these sort of laws that will creep on to our Statute Book from the EU. 

[Varche]

At least you can photograph or film a policeman in your country. Can't in Spain. Give it up you know how shy policeman are .

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

As a remainer I would rather we remain, or leave with no deal.

Leaving without a ' proper brexit ' will create more problems than it will solve.

Theresa has often repeated the mantra  brexit means brexit. Clearly this is not so.

Her other mantra ' no deal is better than a bad deal ' seems to be out of favour.

As a leaver I agree with this, although with the caveat that we shouldn't leave with Barniers Withdrawal Agreement & Political Declaration as it is truly dreadful.

I havn't read the whole 500 odd pages, but I cannot believe some of the things that May and her officials have signed up to.  For example, it is there in black and white that it is the sole responsibility of the UK to find a solution to the Irish border and of course there is no onus on the EU to accept any solutions put forward.  Anyone with half a brain can see that the EU will deliberately reject any solutions, good, bad or even brilliant, so that they can drive us up the cul de sac of the backstop, and there we will remain at the EU's pleasure so that they can carry on selling stuff into the UK without let or hindrance. 

The Political Declaration which apparently isn't legally binding, but will nevertheless form the basis of the future deal, provides for the extradition of people for political crimes and agrees to waive the principal of Double Criminality, which is a basic plank of international extradition law.  For example, most countries will not extradite if the crime committed in the other country, is not a crime in the country the person is to be extradited from.  So why have they agreed to waive it?  I find this rather sinister and wonder what they are planning in Brussels?    A raft of new laws prohibiting criticism of the EU or activating against it? 

We should all, Leave or Remain, be totally opposed to these sort of laws that will creep on to our Statute Book from the EU. 

I believe this is all already in place as part of the European arrest warrant, which is something we should be getting ourselves out of rather than trying to stay attached to it.

Next phase of integration is the EU defence force, which they denied for years they were planning. That will eventually mean the British army, navy and Airforce being largely controlled by the Germans and the French.
Then a standardised health system across the EU. This will get rid of the NHS as we know it, and at the point the liberal lefties might just wake up and start complaining.
After that its an EU treasury, with centralised financial control, standardised taxation etc. etc.

By that point there will be one EU President, and the only debate left to have is do they change the name to the U.S.E or possibly the EUSSR.